The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Marle]

Going back to an issue that was brought up about a page or so ago.

I don't see the 'not enough time' point as a good one to make against clerith. :T

Okay, sure, their moments weren't on a scale as grand as the LS sequence or the HA HW scene but they were still critical moments that defined their relationship into something beyond just friendship.

imho, I think it's perfectly possible that Cloud could have grown to love Aerith during disc one (Aerith did love Cloud, so no arguing that at all), regardless of everything taking place within two weeks. Their moments together were still prominent and still sweet and, at the time, better than what Cloud was offering Tifa at that point in the game.

My first playthrough of the game, I honestly believed that Clerith was gonna happen and they were the intended couple (and yeah, I might have been biased at the time because I was a clerith shipper, but still). I think a lot of people who played the game got that impression too and some are even convinced that Cloud still loves Aerith in AC/C, so really...is it that much of a difficult notion to accept?

:T And this is coming from someone who believes in looong term relationships versus short flings and love at first sight nonsense.

 

[Guts]

Ramza wrote he doesn't know how the LA scene translates into him liking Aerith.

I don't know how videogames translate into liking videogames, but I sure do like videogames.

I know one thing's for sure, the mystique of his decidedly not romantic relationship with Aerith was one of the high points of it. Aerith had this almost phantasmagoric quality which made her existence itself feel ephemeral, though not quite so that you wonder if she was alive in the first place.

Editz oh and Rave, love at first sight is a possibility but for it to follow through and not be a petty addiction to chemistry they need to hit all the other marks as you go. It takes one of hell of a combo for a winning streak to last that long.

Edit 2 It'd be cool if a game with this system worked like that, having a higher chance if you strung winning moves on someone without breaking them.

Go to 2 minutes and 55 seconds. That's how relationships work in most Bioware games.

 

[Strangelove]

I think it's basically the same thing as arguing Chrona's gender in Soul Eater from an English translation. Japanese doesn't have gendered pronouns, whereas English does.

*bites lip*

There are technically, but Japanese can get away with not using them or any at all whereas that's not really possible in English without sounds daft.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

*bites lip*

There are technically, but Japanese can get away with not using them or any at all whereas that's not really possible in English without sounds daft.

yeah i shouldn't have said 'they don't have'. they can, but they can also use completely gender neutral words like 'that person' or whatever.

 

[Strangelove]

I totally meant to say you have plenty of gender neutral words you could use instead. But then I just thought it and didn't write it down.

 

[Guts]

People very often try to get a definitive conclusion regarding gender because of our gender specific language with characters like NiGHTs and Chrona. I think it sort of conditions us to desiring certain things like that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sorry I didn't get to these last night, Tres. I was tied up with some other stuff.

Tres
(You were asking me some questions about the Date Mechanics)

I think that one's rather obvious. Cloud picks the person he likes best to go with him. Once again, it's a matter of who Cloud likes - Cloud's actions towards those people affect their affection levels for him.

Ryu and I addressed issues with that concept as a whole previously (I'll wait for you to respond to that before saying any more on that matter), but I do want to make this observation about the comment you made here:

Cloud would have to be a really shitty military commander to pick someone to go with him to a fight based on who he has the biggest boner for instead of who he thinks would make the best backup in a fight.

But, again, I reiterate the point that even picking someone to go with you is likely a gameplay mechanism. It doesn't make sense for everyone not to go.

Given that Cloud's a SOLDIER (or thinks he is at that time), Cloud wants someone along who can back him up in combat. Remember that it's Cloud who picks who to go with he and Barret. I always pick Aerith to go, since I like mages - I like using Aerith in combat. (I would guess that a lot of people here pick Tifa to go - I usually don't.) So, that's me as Cloud showing a preference for Aerith. That not only increases Aerith's affection level for Cloud, but it also means that Cloud likes Aerith better than Tifa.

So you're claiming that who Cloud thinks would be the best backup in a fight is the person who he wants to put his dick in the most? That makes sense to you?

Because it IS related to the narrative. The Date Mechanics determine who Cloud loves in the story.

The date mechanics determine who likes Cloud best in a given playthrough -- the opposite of what you're claiming here.

Who Cloud loves is up to player control. There is no canon love interest.

Cloud doesn't have an affection value.

Because I'm not saying that my interpretation is the only possible way to see it. I been saying all along that who Cloud loves is up to the interpretation of the player, which means that I think either interpretation is valid. That's neutral.

You're not being neutral. You're taking two quotes that have nothing to do with the love triangle and nothing to do with Tifa's feelings for Cloud, then sticking them into a context they have no business being in.

For that matter, you really think Nojima and Nomura sit around trying to fill books with quotes about nothing?

Nomura: "Nojima-san, how do you think we can fuck with the fandom today?"
Nojima: "Well, Nomura-san, let's talk about the thinking that went into how we portrayed Tifa in Advent Children -- or at least that's what it's going to look like to most people! Our true fans will see past that to the truth: that this is a love triangle quote, filled with ambiguity about who Cloud loves romantically."
Nomura: "Excellent, Nojima-san! Excellent! Only a true fan could see that a quote about Cloud's romantic feelings is hidden behind a quote talking about Tifa's feelings on a completely unrelated subject! They'll be able to figure that out, but not what we were actually trying to say about Cloud's feelings, of course!"
Nojima: "Fear us, peasants! Fufufufu!"
Nomura: "Kekekeke!"
Nojima: "Fufufufu!"
Nomura: "Kekekeke!"
Nojima: "Fufufufu!"
Nomura: "Kekeke -- wait. I thought I was the FFVII developer who likes to make it sound like everything is up to interpretation, from who Cloud is in love with to whether Advent Children was a drug-induced dream Cloud had before Meteor killed everyone?"
Nojima: "PLOT TWIST, bitcheeeeeees!"

To me, the interpretation that Cloud loves Aerith makes much more sense. But if you want to think Cloud loves Tifa, go right ahead. What I object to is the idea that there is only one possible answer to the Love Triangle.

So you won't be referencing that commercial Sony made anymore then? Or claiming that the use of "koibito" in Case of the Lifestream White implies mutuality?

That's not really a subjective thing. That's objectively weak. And clingy.

Hell, if Tifa's creeping into Cloud's room in the middle of the night to ask him if he loves her, that's, like, stalker-level clingy. I mean, does this not come across as creepy and clingy?

That's how you see the scene. It could just as easily be that Cloud fell asleep on the sofa while reading the newspaper with the light on, and Tifa came into the room, looked at him, then whispered that. Quite different from what you described.

Ryu said it well:

"Tifa made sure Cloud was asleep."
That's creeper if she's not already there when he falls asleep.

I said that the idea of Tifa waiting for Cloud to get over Aerith doesn't make her weak.

I've already responded to that more thoroughly in my previous post, so I'll leave the matter there.

If she can wait around for Cloud to become a SOLDIER and a hero, then it's in character for Tifa to wait around for Cloud to get over Aerith.

How are those things at all comparable? And what do you mean, "wait around for Cloud to become a SOLDIER"? You make it sound like she did literally nothing else with her life while waiting for word about Cloud.

Really, I don't even see how that's supposed to be comparable.

It seems Tifa's always wanting Cloud to be something different than what he really is.

Says the fan of the pairing that includes the chick who got into him in the first place because he reminded her of her ex-boyfriend. Meanwhile, which chick stuck by him after he handed Sephiroth the Black Materia and allowed Meteor to be cast? And insisted that he was the same kid she'd known in Nibelheim, despite Sephiroth playing him like a fiddle? And stayed in love with him after finding out he was never in SOLDIER?

Why do you constantly lie?

If you think that makes Tifa weak, then Cloud is weak for waiting around for Tifa to notice him in Nibelheim as a kid.

He didn't wait around. He took action by trying to join SOLDIER. He actively did something about his feelings.

That also makes Yuna weak in FFX-2.

How exactly? She didn't sit around waiting for Tidus to pop back from being dead. She went out and looked for more information after Kimahri found that sphere on Gagazet -- and helped a shit-ton of people along the way.

Again, she took action.

It also makes Vincent weak for continuing to love Lucrecia.

Vincent is weak. The dude locked himself in a fucking box for over 20 years. He's a little bitch. And he knows it.

That last sentence only says that Tifa can be a bit clueless because she didn't put two and two together.

Then why insert a phrase of thirteen words that clearly refers to the Promise if it has no basis? "Even though she was called and it was just the two of them" makes it clear that this is about the Promise because she wasn't called at the time of the Lifestream event.

You're not picking up on the feelings that applied at the time of the promise being the feelings she learned about in the Lifestream. She was clueless about Cloud's intentions at the time of the promise and didn't figure shit out until the Lifestream sequence.

The first sentence says Cloud has been holding feelings for her from long ago until now: クラウドが前からティファに好意を抱いていたのに --

クラウド = Cloud
が (ga; identifies subject, or person performing action)
前 (mae; "before")
から (kara; "since")
ティファ = Tifa
に (ni; "toward" or "for")
好意 (koui; "favor")
を (wo; direct object identifier)
抱いていたのに (daiteita; past progressive form of "to hold" or "to embrace"; more on this below)
のに (noni; "even though")

"Even though Cloud has been holding favor/feelings for Tifa since before/the past/some time ago ..."

Alright, so more about "daiteita": as said above, the "iteita" portion means that this is past progressive. In other words, that which is being held or embraced still is being held or embraced. It's an ongoing tense, as in the title of the manga "Haru wo Daiteita" (it was localized into English with the title "Embracing Love," but it actually means "Embracing Springtime"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embracing_Love

But what feelings did they talk about during the Lifestream event? They didn't talk about how Cloud currently feels for Tifa.

You ... didn't address what I said at all. You completely ignored what I just told you about the grammatical structure of the Japanese language, and just repeated the same nonsense I was replying to.

"Daiteita" means that the holding of feelings began in the past and continued thereafter. In the absence of a comment saying that the holding of feelings ended, they're still being held. It's the same word used in Tifa's profile from the 10th AU as well, where it speaks of she and Cloud discovering the feelings that each other were holding. Are you going to argue that Tifa's feelings are past feelings as well now?

The word "daiteita" is in the past progressive tense. That's not interpretation. That is not wishful thinking. That is fact.

If I am wrong about this, you will show me by referencing Japanese verb conjugation constructs. You won't simply repeat the same claim that I just proved to be invalid.

I realize that Sony's English translations can suck, but it's beginning to sound like you're saying that we can only figure out a major part of the plot if we know Japanese. Does SE care only about it's JP audience or something?

"Probably" and "certainly" hardly makes a significant difference for what was being conveyed to the audience at that point in the story. And as uncertainties about the plot goes, that's hardly the greatest offense Sony's translation offered.

"Sephiroth clones" (genetic duplicates?), "Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on" (alien settlers?), "...Tseng's with our enemy, the Turks, but I've known him since we were little..." (obvious), "But you really got guts doin' my boss in like that!" (I guess Tseng died?), "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came" (JENOVA's got a penis?), "Knowlespole" (not "North Pole"?), "Meteor is approaching the Planet. Holy is having the opposite effect" (the "opposite effect"? Not "backfiring"? Not "being counterproductive due to Meteor's close proximity to the planet"?) -- all of these caused much greater confusion than "probably."

Hell, even "Attack when its tails up" was a bigger problem.

You're acting like having to consult the primary source for clarification with this game is a new development.

At any rate, "He'll be delighted for sure" doesn't necessarily mean that he's in love with her now. It could also mean that he's glad his strategy worked for getting her to notice him.

"Wow, Tifa, that's so awesome to know that my plan to get your affection worked! Of course, I don't give two shits about you at this point, but, man, that's great."

Your version of Cloud is a total dickwad.

In the first place, SE did not reveal that Cloud had romantic feelings for Tifa when he was a kid. SE revealed that Cloud had a crush on her from afar when they weren't even friends.

You might want to look up the definition of what a crush is. And SE constantly disagrees with you about whether they were friends.

This is talking about BEFORE Cloud decided to join SOLDIER at the age of 12 ...

He was 14 at the time of the promise. 16 when Nibelheim burned.

In the second place, it's a love triangle. Kitase said that Cloud's supposed to waver between the two girls:

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Up to that point in the game, there's been no real good reason to think that Cloud might be interested in Tifa. There's been a few suggestions, but nothing all that definite.

You're acting as though that quote from Kitase isn't a comment made in hindsight years later. Like they got halfway through development, realized they'd made a previous announcement that the game would have a love triangle, and then realized they needed to include something to make it one.

SE needed a memory that no one else knew about since they need to establish his identity, and Cloud kept the crush to himself when he was a kid. The idea of a crush is a personal memory that would help establish Cloud's identity.

Tifa's plan was to identify memories they both shared in order to prove Cloud's identity: "That's it! What about some memory that has to do with me? I say something and you don't remember it...... But you say something, and I remember it, too... Then we'll know that's our memory......"

Obviously, Cloud is male and Tifa female, so the idea of a crush is made easy by that.

Do I have to explain to you why that is silly?

Again, that's a matter of opinion. Sure, it's possible for someone to have romantic feelings at that time, but it depends largely on the individual. What one person feels at the age of 16 with a crush isn't necessarily the exact same way another person feels at the age of 16 with a crush.

For serious, look up the word.

Now, once again, you're saying "in love" - that's only your opinion. It's a crush, and you cannot say that definitely means love.

You're forgetting the quote from the CC Ultimania that says Cloud fell in love with her. "Omoi wo yoseteita" (想いを寄せていた) means that in Japanese.

In the second place, it's been 4 years since Cloud saw Tifa.

Less than two years.

Was Cloud's crush, in the first place, based on anything since he hardly knew her? Would Cloud's crush be all that significant in the first place, since he barely knew her?

Uh, you do remember that Aerith initially was interested in Cloud because he reminded her of Zack, right? Please try to keep perspective here.

How much did Cloud even think of Tifa over those 4 years between the ages of 12-16 when he never saw her or wrote to her? We have no idea. It's totally up to interpretation.

Ryu:

Two, and no, actually, it's not. We know that protecting people becomes an obsession of Cloud's, we know the promise is engraved in his heart, and- should Cloud fall in battle, he apologizes for not being able to fulfill the promise- all in BC.

 

[Dashell]

Uh, you do remember that Aerith initially was interested in Cloud because he reminded her of Zack, right? Please try to keep perspective here.

Isn't there a quote in the Crisis Core Ultimania that says that Cloud hid himself from Tifa out of shame?... and isn't there a SCENE in Crisis Core where Zack says Tifa's doing fine and Cloud gets all pouty and says, "If ONLY I was in SOLDIER D:"

Wouldn't this indicate he still felt the same way about her as when he left?... or am I misunderstanding Anastar's argument? I mean I understand we DON'T know how often he thought about her but I don't think that's relevant when there's evidence to show he still feels the same way.

also

"That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came" (JENOVA's got a penis?),

I don't see why she can't really, I mean she's got all those tentacles and stuff, whose to say she doesn't have a penis or two?

EDIT
Here is the video:

I'll try to find the English version... the part I talked about happens at about 18 seconds... not sure when in the game this takes place though...


EDIT II
Found the quote too, but the first one was missing a part that mentions Tifa that Hito did so this is by both... I think Chibica and Hito:

Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he dimly fell in love with, and made a promise to protect her. After making such a grand gesture, Cloud, nothing more than a mere grunt, believes that he cannot let himself be seen by Tifa.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Going back to an issue that was brought up about a page or so ago.

I don't see the 'not enough time' point as a good one to make against clerith. :T

I believe people can fall in love in two weeks, but I pointed out that that time is short for a real relationship. You can be very attracted to each other and that's a good sign for a budding romantic relationship, but it takes a lot of time to know each other every well and transparency is needed for a relationship.

Of course, a "real" or "genuine" romantic relationship is not objective, everyone can have their own interpretation.

Again, I have never played the game so there you go. But at my post I pointed out that whether or not Cloud loved Aerith, her impact in his life is more from the guilt of letting her die. I believe that romantic feelings can be a major factor in causing a depression/trauma but we have seen cases of policemen and soldiers suffering guilt from the failure of protecting total strangers.

So that boils down to this: does Cloud's depression and undying feeling of guilt stem from his romantic feelings for her? It's possible, yes, but it's also possible that it's also not. But even if he loved her, his guilt is what causing his problems, not his desire to be with her.

I think a lot of people who played the game got that impression too and some are even convinced that Cloud still loves Aerith in AC/C, so really...is it that much of a difficult notion to accept?

In the past two years I have been interviewing people who played the game none of them were Cleriths, but I hope I will find one. But to be fair I was a bit of a Clerith when I watched AC, her mystery and her connection to Cloud made me interested in FFVII. After AC I played CC and became a Zerith, but I totally ignored Cloti. One time I read Anastar's essays and since I know nothing about the compilation, I was made to believe that Aerith didn't take Zack seriously and that Cloud loves Aerith despite Tifa's support for him. My fangirl self became really, really depressed back then.

Thankfully I found TLS and the essays and forums here are really objective This site revived my love for Zerith and made me love Cloti that I had previously ignored.

:T And this is coming from someone who believes in looong term relationships versus short flings and love at first sight nonsense.

I feel the same

I might stop posting for now since I feel that I should play the game first to have a right to argue here but these statements bug me:
1. Cloud can only be happy with Tifa if he has no romantic feelings for Aerith
2. Cloud cannot be happy with Tifa is he still hold romantic feelings for Aerith

I believe that Cloud IS happy with Tifa and wants to share his life with her whether he loved Aerith or not. However, there is no "whether Cloud loved Tifa of not" because SE provided us with answers. The "it's not called canon or officially stated that HA is canon" argument does not really set off. I believe it's never stated that Laguna is Squall's father either but everyone agrees that he is.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wait, I thought that was true? As in both Cetra and Jenova were alien settlers? Freaking translations...

Nope. They settle the land, cultivate it, then move on somewhere else and cultivate there. Cetra are the closest thing to a human native species the planet has. (My personal theory is that Nanaki's people are the only actual native intelligent species, and that both Cetrans and Spirans originally come from the same genetic stock from a third planet out there somewhere)

On topic: I'm getting the impression that if Aerith doesn't get Cloud, some people think she lost to Tifa. And if someone is basing Aerith's character only on her relationship with Cloud (and vice-versa), then it's a really poor "interpretation" of their characters.

That's quite the same impression I've been getting for some time now, so it's not just you.

Again, I have never played the game so there you go. But at my post I pointed out that whether or not Cloud loved Aerith, her impact in his life is more from the guilt of letting her die. I believe that romantic feelings can be a major factor in causing a depression/trauma but we have seen cases of policemen and soldiers suffering guilt from the failure of protecting total strangers.

Colloquially, it's referred to as Survivor's guilt, a symptom of PTSD. Which I recall has been flatly rejected as an explanation before, though with no explanation as to why.

I might stop posting for now since I feel that I should play the game first to have a right to argue here but these statements bug me:

Hasn't stopped some of the other participants.

1. Cloud can only be happy with Tifa if he has no romantic feelings for Aerith
2. Cloud cannot be happy with Tifa is he still hold romantic feelings for Aerith

I believe that Cloud IS happy with Tifa and wants to share his life with her whether he loved Aerith or not. However, there is no "whether Cloud loved Tifa of not" because SE provided us with answers. The "it's not called canon or officially stated that HA is canon" argument does not really set off. I believe it's never stated that Laguna is Squall's father either but everyone agrees that he is.

That is a perfect example- even though he has been confirmed, now, it took 8 years to actually confirm that simple fact.
Anyways, I don't think #1 is the stance of anyone here. Our stance is very simply 'well, if he does love Aerith (instead of or even in addition to Tifa,) demonstrate it within reasonable doubt, then.'

 

[Anastar]

Tres

I'm answering you tonight for two reasons, even though I have PMs from GLD, Quexinos, the Penguin, and Zealkin that I haven't answered yet. 1) You've said that you hate the time delay - well, the fact that I have so many people to respond to is the reason for the time delay. What I usually do is answer the PMs from other people before responding to yours. 2) There's several issues in this PM that I'd like to address asap, such as my supposed "dishonesty".

And Quex said in PM that people don't like the blue I'm using for quotes. Sorry, I thought that helped. I will italicize quotes from now on.

Like I said to Tres, it takes a lot of emotional strength for a person to wait for someone else to grow to love them, and to hope it will happen someday.

Bah - you really don't understand women very well, do you?

I was in a similar situation in college. I was romantically interested in this guy who was going out with a friend of mine. I didn't try to interfere with their relationship in any way, but I kept hoping he'd take an interest in me at some point. After he broke up with her, I was still hoping that he would. It never happened, and eventually I moved on - but he and I remain good friends until this day.

So, rather than get annoyed at your comment about not understanding women, I decided to humor your point -- I'll be the first to admit I don't always understand even the women I'm closest to -- and see what women had to say on the subject. While I can't readily verify all of the information I'm about to tell you (you'll have to take my word for some of it), given that you've made plenty of appeals to authority on the topic of the Japanese language without verifying the people or claims involved, I don't think this is particularly unfair of me.

Without giving any background information on the LTD or revealing my stance on the following question, I said that I was having a discussion with someone about the matter and needed the input of women. I asked four women what they believed to be emotionally stronger: to wait indefinitely for a man to return their affections when he knows how they feel and has made it clear that he has no interest in being more than platonic friends, or to move on and find someone who would feel the same way about them.

I asked two coworkers (one a 24-year-old and one a 63-year-old), as well as my wife (20 years old) and my mother-in-law (43). Without giving out too much of their personal information, all four have been married, currently are married, or are in a long-term relationship involving cohabitation. All four are also career women. My coworkers operate machines in a factory, my wife works in the emergency room of a large hospital, and her mother is a flight paramedic.

I didn't copy exactly what the first two said, but while both said being a little patient is normal, they would consider a woman who let herself stay in that situation for a long period of time to be a pushover who lacked self respect.

My wife's response was "It takes strength to REALLY be okay with someone not loving you," and agreed with the above perspectives. Her mom had the most in-depth response, and said "Well, it does take great strength to wait around for someone, but is it self-defeating? To love someone who is emotionally unavailable would require patience, but is it because you deep down know that that person is unobtainable, so you really are not taking any risk? By walking away you are empowering yourself and promoting your self worth that your love shouldn't be thrown away at someone who will never reciprocate or appreciate it."

Again, I didn't give any of them any information on the LTD or why I was asking, other than that I was having a discussion with someone about the topic.

For the record, my wife does have the vaguest knowledge about the LTD, but finds the whole concept and discussion of it retarded. The one time she asked to look at some information about it, she thought the "Do you love me?" scene sounded like a woman in a relationship who was worried that her boyfriend was drifting away. She said if that was supposed to be the dude's platonic roommate sneaking into his room in the middle of the night to ask him if he loved her, then Tifa was creepy.

And that's coming from a chick who likes "Twilight."

First of all, my comment about not understanding women very well was meant lightheartedly, not offensively. I certainly don't understand men very well, either. Many people I know say they don't understand the opposite sex, but they say it lightheartedly and never offensively.

Now, as for the women you asked - you asked for their opinion on whether they thought that "waiting around" would indicate strength or weakness. What they gave you was their opinion. Your judgement on the matter is also opinion. My judgement on the matter is also opinion.

Now, I'd like to point out that two of the women you asked actually agreed with both of us:

"It takes strength to REALLY be okay with someone not loving you," and agreed with the above perspectives. Her mom had the most in-depth response, and said "Well, it does take great strength to wait around for someone, but is it self-defeating? To love someone who is emotionally unavailable would require patience, but is it because you deep down know that that person is unobtainable, so you really are not taking any risk?" ~from your post

Both acknowledge that it takes strength (agreeing with me), but go on to acknowledge that it's also self-defeating (agreeing with you). Your stepmother also went on to agree with me that it takes patience, but went on to agree with you by saying that it's not taking any risk. So they see my side as well as your side.

People don't always do what's best for them, do they? For example, abused women don't always get out of the situation they are in - some do, some don't. It's easy to stand on the outside and judge what would be best for someone else to do. Doesn't mean that everybody always does what's best for them.

In my post yesterday, I pointed out examples of several FF characters who are in pretty much the same situation. Yuna doesn't move on from Tidus in FFX-2. Vincent doesn't move on from Lucrecia. Dyne doesn't move on from Eleanor. There's also Shera when Avalanche first gets to Rocket Town in FFVII. She's living with Cid, who is emotionally distant from her and actually resents her for preventing his rocket from taking off - but Shera sticks around despite that. Cid eventually sees his mistake, and ends up marrying her. From what you've said, you would most likely have told Shera to move on. Doesn't always happen, either in FF or in RL.

In the first place,"their home" can grammatically mean "Barret, Cloud, and Tifa's home". Barret can easily be part of "their", especially since the story is written in third person.

It couldn't, no. Ryu explained why, so I'll just quote him:

No.
It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey

The full context of the sentence reveals that 'their' is the same as 'two of them.'
The sentence does not make sense if you insert a third person into the pronoun only to remove them a second later with no indication.

Okay, let's try writing it in first person:

It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.

Seems to work to me.

In any event, the Japanese text makes who "their" pertains to indisputable: "ティファとクラウドの家."

I'll just have to take your word for it.

In the second place, he may be calling it "Cloud and Tifa's home" because that's where Cloud and Tifa are living. Case of Tifa makes it very obvious that Barret's planning to live there with them while he's helping to build it. Plus, Case of Tifa shows that it was all Barret's idea to start a business together with Cloud and Tifa, which is why the house was built. Barret was planning to stay - Case of Barret makes it clear that the only reason he left was to find redemption for his sins.

Being with Marlene gave him peace of mind; he felt guilty for putting off action just one more day. He knew he had to leave, even if he had no purpose. Put some space between him and his heart's crutch, bear himself to the wilds. This was a "quick-fix" departure.. ~Case of Barret

He wanted to put space between himself and Marlene because she is his "heart's crutch". He didn't think he could find redemption with Marlene at his side.

Case of Barret says at the beginning that Barret "felt guilty for putting off action just one more day" before he left, so that tells us he'd known he would be leaving for a while.

Unless he just thought of it yesterday for the first time. "Just one more day" may be referring to the strength of his desire to find redemption, rather than how long he has been planning it.

In other words, if it just occurred to him yesterday for the first time that he can't find redemption when he's with Marlene because she's an emotional crutch for him, the power of that realization may have made him want to leave NOW - and not delay it.

That would make sense, since there's several things in Case of Tifa which make it clear that he had been planning to stay - such as his original plan as stated to Cloud and Tifa:

The next day, Barret said in a serious tone, "How about we started a business and sold this wine?"
"We?" Cloud asked, surprised.
"Of course, you idiot! We can't draw customers! Tifa will have to do it."
....
"I dunno. But when we were half drunk yesterday, we laughed. We forgot all sorts of things right? That's the moment we're after." ~Case of Barret
Source: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page05.php

Seems clear to me that Barret's including himself as part of the business.

Also, it wasn't Barret who called it Cloud and Tifa's place. It was the narrative voice. As you mentioned, the story was written in the third-person. That third-person voice of the narrative called it Cloud and Tifa's.

True, but the writer is writing from Barret's perspective. Therefore, it's from Barret's perspective that the writer says, "Cloud and Tifa's place".

And again, if you write it in first person instead of third, it becomes clear that he could be referring to his own home, too:

It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.

Why is Tifa talking about taking off to settling her past (like Barret) if the plan is to live here with Cloud and build a family?

Is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past? Ultimately, she seeks redemption right there by -- as Barret bid her to do -- trying to prove she could give, not just take.

Maybe so, but Barret had to point that out to Tifa. In Case of Tifa, we see that Tifa was thinking of taking off to settle her sins, too, before Barret said that to her.

To be accurate, it isn't shown that she was thinking of taking off as well. She merely responded to Barret's announcement by saying that she wanted to settle her past as well.

But it can easily be inferred that she was wanting to "take off" in order to do it:

"I wanna go on a journey to settle my past."
Cloud nodded as if he understood.
"Settle your past...? But I want to do that too."
"You guys can do that here. Don't just take. Try proving that you can give too." ~Case of Tifa


Barret just finished saying that he was going on a journey in order to settle his past. Tifa says she wants to settle her past, too - so was she also wanting to go on a journey to do it, just like Barret? It's certainly possible. Why else did Barret specify that she could do it here? Sounds like Barret thought that Tifa meant she wanted to leave, too.

Also, again, is leaving Cloud behind necessary to settle her past?

I can't answer that for Tifa. Was leaving Marlene behind necessary to settle Barret's past? He seemed to think so. Cloud seemed to think it was necessary to leave Tifa behind when he moved into Aerith's Church. If Barret and Cloud can leave people behind, so can Tifa.

And if Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for leaving, it could be because Cloud has reasons for leaving, too. However, my original question remains - why would Tifa wonder if Cloud thinks of the Seventh Heaven as "Tifa's place"? If this is supposed to be "Cloud and Tifa's place", then she shouldn't even be wondering whether Cloud thinks of it as Tifa's place alone.

I did answer your question, though. She was surprised that Barret left, and probably worried Cloud might think about leaving too. She tends to be insecure.

Yes, she tends to be insecure - but that's not the point I'm making. My point is that Tifa has no reason to be insecure IF Cloud is making it clear to Tifa that he loves her and wants to be with her and wants to share his future with her.

Nonetheless, the narrative does call it Cloud and Tifa's home, so that's what it was.

After Barret left. What was it before Barret left? Was Barret staying at "Cloud and Tifa's home", or was the Seventh Heaven "Cloud, Barret, and Tifa's home" before Barret left on a journey to settle his sins?

It was Cloud and Tifa's home. That's what the story calls it.

The story doesn't call it anything in particular before Barret leaves.

By the way, while I take no issue with the notion that Barret is planning on coming back, I do feel the need to point out that you're using the word "journey" wrong. There's nothing inherent in the word itself that implies a return:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/journey

Okay, fair enough. However, there's also nothing inherent in the word "journey" to imply that he won't return. I took a journey to Europe a number of years ago, and I was gone for over a year. However, I did return home.

And you said yourself that it's likely Barret will return home:

And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though. ~Tres, Nov 6

And as I pointed out before - it doesn't entail that he's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven, either.

Okay, but what about after Barret left? Do the girls continue sharing a room until Denzel arrives?

It's impossible to say for sure, but as Ryu has mentioned many times, there's nothing requisite about Cloud leaving the room in order for Marlene to sleep in a bed with Tifa anyway.

But the story only said that Marlene had always slept with Tifa - not with Cloud and Tifa.

But Barret may be calling it Cloud and Tifa's place simply because that's where they are living at that time.

Just to reiterate, Barret didn't call it that. The voice of the narrative did.

And just to reiterate, the voice of the narrator is speaking from Barret's perspective.

And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though.

That doesn't entail that Barret's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven when he returns, either.

You didn't really rebut the point there. It's officially Cloud and Tifa's home, so if you want to suggest that it will be Barret's home as well at a later date, you're going to need to substantiate the point with more than suggesting the possibility alone.

In the first place, I don't agree that it's "officially Cloud and Tifa's home".

However, if you want substantiation, I refer again to where Barret suggested to Cloud and Tifa that "WE" start a business together. He was including himself in the business. He helped Cloud and Tifa build the Seventh Heaven for that business that he was intending to run with them. So the Seventh Heaven is officially Cloud and Barret and Tifa's business, according to Case of Tifa. Why wouldn't he return once he resolves his past?

Marlene seems to consider him part of the nuclear family, since she still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. Last I heard, Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents.

You're being completely ridiculous here. Not to mention insulting countless real families.

Have you never (you have; I'm just humoring the notion for the sake of argument) seen a family in which there is a step-parent whose step-child addresses them by their first name? And still addresses their biological parent -- the one outside the home (i.e. not part of the nuclear family) -- as "mom" or "dad"?

I'm insulting no one. And yes, I've seen such a family, since I had two foster children living with me for almost two years.

What you say doesn't rule out that fact that Marlene still regards Barret as her father. In some foster families, the foster kids call their foster parents Mom and Dad. In other foster families, the foster kids call the foster parents by their first names. Regardless of what the foster child calls the foster parent(s), it doesn't mean that the biological parent(s) aren't still the real parent(s).

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Barret won't come back and live at the Seventh Heaven. Marlene obviously considers Barret part of her family, since she still calls him "Daddy". In Case of Tifa, Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Since Marlene's the one inviting Cloud into the family, and Marlene considers Barret part of the family, then Barret would be part of the nuclear family, too. Also, Tifa includes Barret in the family when she says that the family is made up of friends.

At the end of AC/ACC, we see two pictures. One with Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. The other picture is Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait Sith, and RedXIII with Aerith's flowers in front. These are the friends that Tifa originally said are part of the family. It's obvious that any of them would be welcome to stay at the Seventh Heaven. These are the friends Cloud and Tifa traveled with throughout FFVII - the same friends that show up in AC/ACC and other parts of the Compilation, and the same friends who show up in AU games like Kingdom Hearts. They can easily be considered part of the family.

I said this yesterday, but I'll say it again. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm trying to show that there is more than one way to interpret the situation. What I'm saying is just as likely and just as valid as what you're saying. SE left it open to interpretation.

And you're very much wrong about Denzel, by the way. His 10th AU profile says that he looks at Cloud and Tifa as parents:

一緒に暮らしている期間はまだ短いが、 クラウドとティファを両親のように慕っており、彼らとの絆は強い

He calls them by their names, nonetheless.

And how does that make me wrong? All I said was that Denzel and Marlene call Cloud and Tifa by their first names.

That's a fair enough response, I suppose, at least for their initial arrangements. What about after Barret had gone?

Well, I'm not sure how long they were homeless and living together, nor am I sure how long it took to build the Seventh Heaven - but I would assume that that was a period of at least several months. Before that, Cloud and Tifa were traveling together with Avalanche for a number of months during the course of FFVII and before that, in the Seventh Heaven.

So up to that point, Cloud and Tifa have been together for approximately a year total. During that time, it's never definitely established whether or not they are romantically involved. Whatever relationship they've had over that course of time would just continue.

So why not, considering that the new Seventh Heaven is the only plan they have and they have no place else to go. I don't see why friends wouldn't decide to do that in the middle of a wrecked community where everything they ever had has been demolished - except for the Seventh Heaven. They already said they didn't want to go back to Nibelheim, so where else?

I personally see issues with it (e.g. it's asking for trouble to be roommates when one person has stated romantic intentions and the other doesn't), and I don't see why they would continue that arrangement indefinitely, but that's a reasonable enough response.

I never said that one expressed romantic intentions and the other did not. According to the scenario I described, both had said they weren't romantically interested.

And right now, Tifa is NOT interested. She may have in the back of her mind that someday she hopes things might work out between them - but for now, she knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud, so she has no intentions of getting romantically involved.

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then? It's only your interpretation that Cloud meant it romantically when he said he was to have Tifa with him from that day forward.

Whether he meant it romantically or no, he said that was his intention. If you want to argue that it wasn't -- or that he changed his mind -- you need to do more than say that it might be the case in the absence of no one ever bothering to inform us.

Like I said earlier - since Cloud seems to understand Barret's reasons for wanting to leave, it's possible that Cloud's wanting to leave, too.

Can you substantiate this, or is it merely "possible," despite what Cloud had said were his intentions? And -- as with Tifa and settling her past -- why does Cloud settling his necessitate leaving Tifa behind? Even if he went elsewhere, why would that necessitate leaving her?

Yes, I can substantiate it with the fact that Cloud leaves at the end of Case of Tifa to live in Aerith's Church. We have no idea how long he was planning to leave before he left.

The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.

You just said Barret definitely planned to stay at Seventh Heaven. Please pick a consistent position.

No, I said that Case of Tifa showed that Barret's original plan was to stay there, which would mean that he was planning to live there.

It pretty much says that in Tifa's profile:

In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.
......
AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

It doesn't say that, though. You're still leaving out parts of that quote. What it says is that Tifa's irritation related to Aerith stems from how he's let his guilt over her death drag him into depression:

I'm perfectly aware what it says, and I'm also perfectly aware that you know what it says. Maybe I should just not quote anything - then you can't accuse me of purposely leaving something out when I know damn well you know what it says. Do you think I think you're stupid or something? >_<

What I've quoted and bolded above is not contradicted by what you accuse me of "leaving out below:

(bold added for emphasis)

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

What I quoted and bolded says that the reason Cloud's dragging the past around might be related to Aerith. What you just quoted does not contradict that. It merely goes into more detail about it.

And the same part of Tifa's profile says that Aerith was/is (not specified) a "love rival" to Tifa:

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world.

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud" is in present tense.

"Aerith, who can also be called a love rival" is once again in present tense.

"she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith" is also in present tense.

"Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC" is also in present tense.

So if Tifa's complex/complicated feelings as a woman are present even in AC, then Tifa still considers Aerith a "love rival". This would indicate that the LA version of the HW scene took place.

Speaking of picking a consistent position, why won't you do so on whether the love triangle has a canon outcome, or whether it's open-ended? Just a few paragraphs earlier, you said this:

And you seem to forget that I'm saying this COULD be happening as easily as your idea of their relationship COULD be happening. Personally, I think it's up to interpretation, and that either interpretation is possible.

Then here you say that the low affection Highwind scene is indicated to have taken place (despite the story summary from the same book explicitly using the high affection version) -- a scene which, elsewhere in the same post, you claim is all about Cloud being in love with Aerith:

Would you PLEASE stop thinking that I'm trying to prove you wrong?

I think either interpretation is possible. I think Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. I think it's optional and up to the player.

When I said that the LA version is indicated, I mean that Tifa's complex feelings would substantiate the LA version instead of the HA version. It's more evidence of one than the other. I do not think it proves that the LA scene happens, but it is evidence to show that the LA version is possible.

Possible, BTW, is indicated by the word COULD, which I put in caps so you wouldn't miss it. Here, I will put this in caps, too, so you won't miss it:

EITHER THE HA OR LA VERSION IS POSSIBLE. THE HA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD LOVES TIFA. THE LA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD DOES NOT LOVE TIFA. BOTH VERSIONS ARE POSSIBLE. THAT'S WHY I SAY THERE IS NO CANON.

SE says that both versions are possible:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Sorry, I only have those quotes in blue font - I have no idea how to change the color to regular font. If I choose black, then everyone says they can't see it.

But SE says right there that both versions are possible. The script of both the LA and HA versions can be found in the FFVII Ultimania Omega.

Furthermore, you have said yourself that how often something appears does not indicate that it is canon. From your essay on my site:

While it's true that Maiden of the Planet is never listed as being part of the Compilation, this does not necessarily mean that it isn't canon. For example, let's take FFVII Kaitai Shinsho or FFVII Dismantled to English speaking fans. It is an official strategy guide by Square Enix that was released in 1997 with official interviews, information on the game, materia, enemies and weapons, and even monologues by the characters.... Dismantled and the Ultimanias are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they do, in fact, contain official and correct information that Square approves and publishes in many books.

Things that are not listed as part of the Compilation does not exclude them from being canon or official. This should not be used as a reason for Maiden not being official. ~Maiden of the Canon, by Quexinos and TresDias

You say that MotP is still official/canon even though it's not listed as part of the Compilation. You say that Dismantled and the Ultimania's are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they are still canon.

So why does the LA version of the HW scene need to be in story summaries before it's considered official/canon? According to you, it doesn't matter whether something is cited frequently or not.

SE has stated that the HW scene diverges into two conditions. The script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO. SE considers both versions valid.

I really wanted to get to the "dishonesty" accusations tonight, but I have no more time. I'll get to it tomorrow night.

 

[Danseru-kun]

There's also Shera when Avalanche first gets to Rocket Town in FFVII. She's living with Cid, who is emotionally distant from her and actually resents her for preventing his rocket from taking off - but Shera sticks around despite that. Cid eventually sees his mistake, and ends up marrying her. From what you've said, you would most likely have told Shera to move on. Doesn't always happen, either in FF or in RL.

Forgive for still participating in this, but I believe that Shera sticks with Cid because she thought it was her fault that his lifelong dream was ruined. It's kinda like selling yourself as a slave to pay for your debt. That's how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Celes Chere]

I will italicize quotes from now on.

Idgi. Why color code or bold/italicize quotes when there's a perfectly good 'quote' button/code that I know you know how to use? O.o

My point is that Tifa has no reason to be insecure IF Cloud is making it clear to Tifa that he loves her and wants to be with her and wants to share his future with her.

Insecure people don't just STOP being insecure, whether a loved one adores them or tells them otherwise or not. You don't just change who you are, it's not that simple.

And right now, Tifa is NOT interested. She may have in the back of her mind that someday she hopes things might work out between them - but for now, she knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud, so she has no intentions of getting romantically involved.

Where in the hell did she ever say/suggest/or imply that? She has loved Cloud her whole life, and continues to love him... obviously.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tres

I'm answering you tonight for two reasons, even though I have PMs from GLD, Quexinos, the Penguin, and Zealkin that I haven't answered yet. 1) You've said that you hate the time delay - well, the fact that I have so many people to respond to is the reason for the time delay. What I usually do is answer the PMs from other people before responding to yours.

No, Anastar, he hates you breaking his responses into multiple posts. Not you delaying in your response to him.

2) There's several issues in this PM that I'd like to address asap, such as my supposed "dishonesty".

'Supposed' nothing. You're willfully dishonest, and are again in this Post.

In my post yesterday, I pointed out examples of several FF characters who are in pretty much the same situation. Yuna doesn't move on from Tidus in FFX-2. Vincent doesn't move on from Lucrecia. Dyne doesn't move on from Eleanor.

All of whom are Weak until they Act.
Lucrecia isn't dead. That's not directly relevant, but hopefully, through endless repitition, you will remember it.

There's also Shera when Avalanche first gets to Rocket Town in FFVII. She's living with Cid, who is emotionally distant from her and actually resents her for preventing his rocket from taking off - but Shera sticks around despite that. Cid eventually sees his mistake, and ends up marrying her. From what you've said, you would most likely have told Shera to move on. Doesn't always happen, either in FF or in RL.

Shera believed she owed Cid. It was not out of a longing that he might one day love her, but out of a feeling that she had to atone for what she'd done. It turned romantic, but it was not in the hopes of being romantic.

Okay, let's try writing it in first person:

It had been several months since that day&#8212;the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.

Seems to work to me.

"So if we simply change all the associated pronouns...
And ignore that the Japanese explicitly refers to it as Cloud and Tifa's home...
We're golden!"

In fact, let's try writing that sentence in the first person AGAIN.

"It had been several months since that day&#8212;the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey."

Whattaya know. It STILL works. Even better. And it fits with the original lines.
Anastar, you're literally resorting to DELIBERATELY REWRITING THE EVIDENCE to suit your conclusion. Not 'Oops, misremembered that' but 'Let's actually change the pronouns used in the text to support my point'

I'll just have to take your word for it.

Anastar, he literally just quoted you the line directly from the japanese version of the novella. It's not his word he's giving you to take. It's the very text under discussion. And it says Tifa and Cloud's home.

Unless he just thought of it yesterday for the first time. "Just one more day" may be referring to the strength of his desire to find redemption, rather than how long he has been planning it.

And 'putting it off' is refering to the fact he's been delaying.

In other words, if it just occurred to him yesterday for the first time that he can't find redemption when he's with Marlene because she's an emotional crutch for him, the power of that realization may have made him want to leave NOW - and not delay it.

The phrasing for THAT would have been 'did not put it off for even a single day' not 'just one more day.'
Anastar. Do not argue semantics with me. I will drag you into a metaphorical back alley and beat you to death with the collected works of Shakespeare.

That would make sense, since there's several things in Case of Tifa which make it clear that he had been planning to stay - such as his original plan as stated to Cloud and Tifa:

The next day, Barret said in a serious tone, "How about we started a business and sold this wine?"
"We?" Cloud asked, surprised.
"Of course, you idiot! We can't draw customers! Tifa will have to do it."
....
"I dunno. But when we were half drunk yesterday, we laughed. We forgot all sorts of things right? That's the moment we're after." ~Case of Barret
Source: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page05.php

Seems clear to me that Barret's including himself as part of the business.

And then tells know one what he plans on doing for the business. If he was seriously planning on being part of the business, he didn't stay with that thought for long.

True, but the writer is writing from Barret's perspective. Therefore, it's from Barret's perspective that the writer says, "Cloud and Tifa's place".

Thank you.
For two reasons.
1. Barret does not consider it his place, and you have no evidence that he has ever considered it his place.
2. You have added another layer of immateriality to COLW, since that too is from the perspective of the unnamed woman we can never possibly identify no matter how hard we try because it's apparently impossible to correctly identify an entity if we're not explicitly told who it is.

And again, if you write it in first person instead of third, it becomes clear that he could be referring to his own home, too:

It had been several months since that day&#8212;the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.

"If we just materially change the nature of the text by simply rewriting it how I want, it can totally mean what I want!"
Actual English used 'their.' Japanese used 'Tifa and Cloud's.'
Trying to argue from your own rewrite- not translation, a simple rewrite- is a dishonest move.

But it can easily be inferred that she was wanting to "take off" in order to do it:

"I wanna go on a journey to settle my past."
Cloud nodded as if he understood.
"Settle your past...? But I want to do that too."
"You guys can do that here. Don't just take. Try proving that you can give too." ~Case of Tifa

Barret just finished saying that he was going on a journey in order to settle his past. Tifa says she wants to settle her past, too - so was she also wanting to go on a journey to do it, just like Barret? It's certainly possible. Why else did Barret specify that she could do it here? Sounds like Barret thought that Tifa meant she wanted to leave, too.

You're trying to build a case out of quite a light of 'could's' and 'maybe's' here, Anastar.

I can't answer that for Tifa. Was leaving Marlene behind necessary to settle Barret's past? He seemed to think so. Cloud seemed to think it was necessary to leave Tifa behind when he moved into Aerith's Church. If Barret and Cloud can leave people behind, so can Tifa.

Cloud wasn't 'leaving Tifa behind,' he was sparing her the site of watching him die in the case his last ditch effort to find redemption and a cure (sought so he could go back to the place where he was happy, that is, with Tifa and the Children) failed.

Yes, she tends to be insecure - but that's not the point I'm making. My point is that Tifa has no reason to be insecure IF Cloud is making it clear to Tifa that he loves her and wants to be with her and wants to share his future with her.

So, a woman NEVER needs to be told she is loved after she's been told once, then? You never need reassurance when a man grows distant, or insular? Worrying about him or the relationship is without reason?

I don't buy that for a minute and you don't either.

The story doesn't call it anything in particular before Barret leaves.

It was only in existence for a week before Barret left. And even then, it's described as 'Cloud and Tifa's home' that Barret 'helped build' so yes, it was called their home before he left. It was their home before it was built.

Okay, fair enough. However, there's also nothing inherent in the word "journey" to imply that he won't return. I took a journey to Europe a number of years ago, and I was gone for over a year. However, I did return home.

And you said yourself that it's likely Barret will return home:

And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though. ~Tres, Nov 6

And as I pointed out before - it doesn't entail that he's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven, either.

And that's where the burden of proof falls squarely on your shoulders. You have to provide evidence he would. The null hypothesis gets to sit back and drink sodas while you do.

But the story only said that Marlene had always slept with Tifa - not with Cloud and Tifa.

Ah, but it never said Cloud WASN'T there, to throw your own logic back at you.

And just to reiterate, the voice of the narrator is speaking from Barret's perspective.

Even just limiting THAT to being just Barret's perspective, he is still of the mind that the two of them are together. Cid is of the mind that Tifa wears the pants. Nojima is of the mind that Cloud and Tifa belong together. The omnisicient narrator of the AC Story playback in the U10- you know, the section you love to ignore the final sentence of?- says Cloud belongs with Tifa and the kids, and he knows he belongs with them.
In short, Cloud and Tifa BELONG together, in THEIR home, with the family THEY were forming, which THEY are the parental figures of.

In the first place, I don't agree that it's "officially Cloud and Tifa's home".

It's literally called such in the narrative. It's where the two of them belong, together. Barret's never been included as part of the family that lived there, even in his own mind.

However, if you want substantiation, I refer again to where Barret suggested to Cloud and Tifa that "WE" start a business together. He was including himself in the business. He helped Cloud and Tifa build the Seventh Heaven for that business that he was intending to run with them. So the Seventh Heaven is officially Cloud and Barret and Tifa's business, according to Case of Tifa. Why wouldn't he return once he resolves his past?

EVEN IF Barret considers himself as having a 3rd ownership of the 7th heaven, why would he return and live in a place he himself considers someone else's home, that he build considering it someone else's home?

I'm insulting no one. And yes, I've seen such a family, since I had two foster children living with me for almost two years.

What you say doesn't rule out that fact that Marlene still regards Barret as her father. In some foster families, the foster kids call their foster parents Mom and Dad. In other foster families, the foster kids call the foster parents by their first names. Regardless of what the foster child calls the foster parent(s), it doesn't mean that the biological parent(s) aren't still the real parent(s).

And NO ONE is saying that Marlene fails to consider Barret her father.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Barret won't come back and live at the Seventh Heaven. Marlene obviously considers Barret part of her family, since she still calls him "Daddy". In Case of Tifa, Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Since Marlene's the one inviting Cloud into the family, and Marlene considers Barret part of the family, then Barret would be part of the nuclear family, too. Also, Tifa includes Barret in the family when she says that the family is made up of friends.

In the Ultimania timeline, and in the Story playback, Barret is excluded from the Nuclear family unit at the 7th Heaven, listing the family of three and then family of four living there. Cloud includes Marlene, BUT NOT BARRET WHO IS PRESENT, as part of his family when he awakens at the church.
Denzel sees Cloud and Tifa as his parents. No mention of Barret.
Barret may, in the future, come back to be with Marlene and stay permanently at 7th heaven. BUT UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, he is part of Marlene's family, but NOT the nuclear family at the 7th heaven. He never has been.
I once again refer you to the Venn Diagram of the families as view by different people

Spoiler: This gets a lot of milage for shit I made in 90 seconds in paint

At the end of AC/ACC, we see two pictures. One with Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene. The other picture is Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait Sith, and RedXIII with Aerith's flowers in front. These are the friends that Tifa originally said are part of the family. It's obvious that any of them would be welcome to stay at the Seventh Heaven. These are the friends Cloud and Tifa traveled with throughout FFVII - the same friends that show up in AC/ACC and other parts of the Compilation, and the same friends who show up in AU games like Kingdom Hearts. They can easily be considered part of the family.

They would be welcome, but it would not be their home. They would not be part of the Nuclear 'real' family that Cloud and Tifa were forming in edge.

I said this yesterday, but I'll say it again. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm trying to show that there is more than one way to interpret the situation. What I'm saying is just as likely and just as valid as what you're saying. SE left it open to interpretation.

You're not, though. You slip up too often. And there are also correct and incorrect interpretations.
Anastar, you referenced this debate actually being like differing religions. Allow me to reference something else. It's known as the wedge document. It outlines a strategy for achieving a goal. Step one is to assert often that both interpretations could be valid.

Also, even if we didn't have concrete evidence on our side, your explanations fail the test of parsimony. That makes them less likely than explanations that shave with William of Okkam.

And how does that make me wrong? All I said was that Denzel and Marlene call Cloud and Tifa by their first names.

...Anastar, it helps not to QUOTE YOURSELF when you want to disavow the past.
"Marlene and Denzel both still call Cloud and Tifa by their first names instead of designating them as parents." You, ONE POST prior to this one.

I never said that one expressed romantic intentions and the other did not. According to the scenario I described, both had said they weren't romantically interested.

An assertion without any evidence and in contradiction to the established facts. Hell, even your scenario, unless the definition of 'romantically interested' has shifted yet again.

And right now, Tifa is NOT interested. She may have in the back of her mind that someday she hopes things might work out between them - but for now, she knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud, so she has no intentions of getting romantically involved.

Even under your silly scenario, SHE'S STILL ROMANTICALLY INTERESTED IN CLOUD even though she's not actively pursuing it.

Yes, I can substantiate it with the fact that Cloud leaves at the end of Case of Tifa to live in Aerith's Church. We have no idea how long he was planning to leave before he left.

So, you substantiate him wanting to leave then with him leaving two years later. And pretending we don't know why he left. Or him returning home to where he belongs and knows he belongs at the end of ACC. You substantiate with willful ignorance.

No, I said that Case of Tifa showed that Barret's original plan was to stay there, which would mean that he was planning to live there.

Which is a definite plan, no? Which means you still flipped flopped between 'He was totally planning on staying' and 'None of them had plans.'

Would you PLEASE stop thinking that I'm trying to prove you wrong?

It's hard to do when you keep TRYING.

I think either interpretation is possible. I think Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. I think it's optional and up to the player.

You are trying to prove us wrong, then.

When I said that the LA version is indicated, I mean that Tifa's complex feelings would substantiate the LA version instead of the HA version. It's more evidence of one than the other. I do not think it proves that the LA scene happens, but it is evidence to show that the LA version is possible.

That is not what you said. You said it indicated "that the LA version of the HW scene took place." Not could. Did.

Possible, BTW, is indicated by the word COULD, which I put in caps so you wouldn't miss it. Here, I will put this in caps, too, so you won't miss it:

EITHER THE HA OR LA VERSION IS POSSIBLE. THE HA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD LOVES TIFA. THE LA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD DOES NOT LOVE TIFA. BOTH VERSIONS ARE POSSIBLE. THAT'S WHY I SAY THERE IS NO CANON.

And you AREN'T CONSISTENT ON THAT. You say the low version is indicated and then you change and say both could happen.

SE says that both versions are possible:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says &#8220;Were you listening?&#8221; and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say &#8220;Were you watching?&#8221; and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Sorry, I only have those quotes in blue font - I have no idea how to change the color to regular font. If I choose black, then everyone says they can't see it.

But SE says right there that both versions are possible. The script of both the LA and HA versions can be found in the FFVII Ultimania Omega.

Not getting Vincent and Yuffie is ALSO possible. That doesn't mean it's narratively so.
Square Enix also tells us what actually happened that evening. Mutual confirmation of feelings without words. Romantic ones, even.

Furthermore, you have said yourself that how often something appears does not indicate that it is canon. From your essay on my site:

While it's true that Maiden of the Planet is never listed as being part of the Compilation, this does not necessarily mean that it isn't canon. For example, let's take FFVII Kaitai Shinsho or FFVII Dismantled to English speaking fans. It is an official strategy guide by Square Enix that was released in 1997 with official interviews, information on the game, materia, enemies and weapons, and even monologues by the characters.... Dismantled and the Ultimanias are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they do, in fact, contain official and correct information that Square approves and publishes in many books.

Things that are not listed as part of the Compilation does not exclude them from being canon or official. This should not be used as a reason for Maiden not being official. ~Maiden of the Canon, by Quexinos and TresDias

Being told what happens, being used as part of the story, and being called most impressive, that DOES indicate what's canon. Same as it does for the other deviations. Which are ANOTHER thing you are completely and totally inconsistent on.

You say that MotP is still official/canon even though it's not listed as part of the Compilation. You say that Dismantled and the Ultimania's are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they are still canon.

Things which are not part of the existing continuity don't have to be part of the compilation. Ultimanias and Dismantled explain and elucidate on the compilation. They are not entries into the actual continuity, which is what the compilation is.

So why does the LA version of the HW scene need to be in story summaries before it's considered official/canon? According to you, it doesn't matter whether something is cited frequently or not.

There's such a thing as 'overwhelming preponderance of the evidence' and 'narrative impossibility' at work here. We're not simply playing a numbers game. We're playing connect the dots.

SE has stated that the HW scene diverges into two conditions. The script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO. SE considers both versions valid.

It considers both versions to exist and be possible in a given game, just as it considers Shadow dying, Vincent and Yuffie not joining, North Corel exploding, and Tidus not returning to existence as possible. None of those happen in the narrative, however.

Your argument boils down to 'They recognize the deviations, therefore, they are saying both versions are possible, and neither if favored over the other.' For numerous NUMEROUS reasons, this is a bad argument. But Yuffie and Vincent are sufficient to show that they are.

I really wanted to get to the "dishonesty" accusations tonight, but I have no more time. I'll get to it tomorrow night.

"Tonight?"
Anastar, that post was made at like 10:30 in the morning.
And once again, you respond to tres in bits and pieces instead of waiting to collect all your responses into a single response LIKE TRES SAID HE PREFERED.
Once again, you fail to show basic respect for the people you respond to by deliberately misunderstanding and flouting a simple request.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm getting really pissed, Anastar. The only thing I'm going to respond to at the moment is this notion that I said Maiden is canon.

I could not have made myself more abundantly clear on this topic: it's not. I have said this over and over and over. I wrote a big article almost exactly a year ago detailing what is and is not canon to FFVII:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/7025/ffvii-and-canon-2/

I have said that I personally think it should be, but that it does not appear to be counted by SE.

Que is the one who thinks it still could be. "Maiden of the Canon" was written by her, with input from me on the contradiction claims only:

http://clerith.heliohost.org/MaidenCanon.htm

She's explained that herself elsewhere:

http://killthemongoose.com/tnc/index.php?topic=1089.0

The conclusions reached in her essay are her conclusions.

I'll get back to you on the rest later.

 

[Octo]

"Tonight?"
Anastar, that post was made at like 10:30 in the morning.

Not saying this is an excuse, but my fourm clock says 18.21 (UK time) and that Anastars post was 3 hours prior? Just wondering if time differences have anything to do with it?


Also, I'd like to suggest that people request a response to Tres' PM's before their own? Everyone seems to be saying the same things, and this is slowing things down a bit. Just a suggestion though, please dont hit me!

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm answering you tonight for two reasons, even though I have PMs from GLD, Quexinos, the Penguin, and Zealkin that I haven't answered yet.

Don't worry too much about me, Tres' posts are overall more in depth and well cited than mine, not to mention he can do his own translations as needed. I'd give his posts priority over mine, were I in your shoes.

1) You've said that you hate the time delay - well, the fact that I have so many people to respond to is the reason for the time delay.

This would make more sense if you were actually responding to more people, thus using up time. Here lately though you've just been replying to Tres, and doing that in bits and pieces. Again, I don't mind and I'm sure everyone else involved will wait for their posts as well, and it needs said that Tres has many times said that you can/should take the time you need to respond right.

What I usually do is answer the PMs from other people before responding to yours. 2) There's several issues in this PM that I'd like to address asap, such as my supposed "dishonesty".

Your dishonesty is not supposed. A goodly number of outright lies, half truths, and twisted/mined quotes were all archived not long ago showcasing said dishonesty.

And Quex said in PM that people don't like the blue I'm using for quotes. Sorry, I thought that helped. I will italicize quotes from now on.

I pointed it out in several of my PM's too, but glad someone got through to you. Thanks, italics alone are much better than sudden color switches.

First of all, my comment about not understanding women very well was meant lightheartedly, not offensively. I certainly don't understand men very well, either. Many people I know say they don't understand the opposite sex, but they say it lightheartedly and never offensively.

Try putting a or after such lighthearted statements, even if the statement is serious information presented in a lighthearted manner the cookie monster really helps people spot the lighthearted tone.

Now, as for the women you asked - you asked for their opinion on whether they thought that "waiting around" would indicate strength or weakness. What they gave you was their opinion. Your judgement on the matter is also opinion. My judgement on the matter is also opinion.

Now, I'd like to point out that two of the women you asked actually agreed with both of us:

"It takes strength to REALLY be okay with someone not loving you," and agreed with the above perspectives. Her mom had the most in-depth response, and said "Well, it does take great strength to wait around for someone, but is it self-defeating? To love someone who is emotionally unavailable would require patience, but is it because you deep down know that that person is unobtainable, so you really are not taking any risk?" ~from your post

Both acknowledge that it takes strength (agreeing with me), but go on to acknowledge that it's also self-defeating (agreeing with you). Your stepmother also went on to agree with me that it takes patience, but went on to agree with you by saying that it's not taking any risk. So they see my side as well as your side.

One of them said it takes strength to REALLY BE OKAY with someone not loving you. Being ok with someone not loving you =/= waiting around hoping they will. The other starts off agreeing that it can take a lot of strength to wait around, yes, and acknowledges the patience required, but then goes on to point out there is no real risk in this since you're not really taking action. Ergo, more strength is required to DO SOMETHING and change the situation, whether your actions are to try and gain their love or to simply walk away. Because once you do that, you're embracing risk. Now, I don't know any of these women Tres quoted here, but just looking at their words here it really looks like they are not agreeing fully with both sides.

TL;DR for my opinions: It does require some strength of will to hang on and hope for love, but it takes genuine strength of character to see how self-defeating and weak this approach is and change it.

People don't always do what's best for them, do they? For example, abused women don't always get out of the situation they are in - some do, some don't. It's easy to stand on the outside and judge what would be best for someone else to do. Doesn't mean that everybody always does what's best for them.

No one will argue this I'm sure, people are, by definition, very good at doing things that are quite the opposite of good for them. But we're talking about [/I]specific[/I] people here, not people in general. We can see examples for both Cloud and Tifa making mistakes and doing the wrong thing for themselves, AND examples of them doing what is best for themselves and each other. Hell, there are times where a single choice they make is both. Good example, fighting the Shinra was good and right, and their downfall was best for the Planet and everyone on it. But Tifa did it for explicitly bad reasons, and the results were tons of guilt at her "sins." Had she and Barret not been so focused on revenge, maybe they'd have taken their plans a little more slowly and NOT killed a ton of innocent people during their bombings, eh?

In my post yesterday, I pointed out examples of several FF characters who are in pretty much the same situation.

And we pointed out, individually, how wrong you were about them.

Yuna doesn't move on from Tidus in FFX-2.

Instead she throws herself into sphere hunting, gets possible information on her lover from Khimari, and goes out hunting for MORE. She acts. She doesn't just sit and wait, hoping the situation will change. She bloody well changes it, and this leads directly to her getting Tidus back.

Vincent doesn't move on from Lucrecia.

Unless he did over the course of DoC, which I really can't claim with any certainty. Up until then at least, though, we all agree that YES, Vincent is weak as fuck. He locked himself in a damned coffin and just waited for decades. He daydreams about visiting his unrequited love in her crystal cavern but rarely if ever actually DOES SO despite the fact that she IS NOT DEAD. One of the best examples is in AC/C:

Cloud: Can sins... be forgiven?
Vince: I wouldn't know, I never tried.

NEVER TRIED! Vincent DOES just sit around and mope. He doesn't act to change his situation. Vincent might be strong as fuck physically, but emotionally he is weak.

Dyne doesn't move on from Eleanor.

And is quite explicitly insane and motivated by a desire to kill absolutely everybody, everywhere. That includes Marlene, his own daughter, once Barret informs him she is alive. This man does not fucking compare to the rest of the examples you tried to make at all.

There's also Shera when Avalanche first gets to Rocket Town in FFVII. She's living with Cid, who is emotionally distant from her and actually resents her for preventing his rocket from taking off - but Shera sticks around despite that. Cid eventually sees his mistake, and ends up marrying her.

Shera explained the reason she stuck around DURING THE GAME. She felt she owed the Captain her life, since he gave up his dream to save her. She was willing to take all of his abuse and scorn because she honestly thought she deserved it, if she was in love with him at the time she never once mentioned it. So yeah, that seems kind of weak, but she wasn't trying to change his mind or win him over. Just serving Cid in any way she could was the action she chose, because she felt she owed him a freaking life debt.

Note, as soon as Cid finds out she was RIGHT about oxygen tank #8, and that her sticking around probably saved his life thanks to the launch cancellation, he apologizes and treats her properly. That's when things change and they end up marrying.

From what you've said, you would most likely have told Shera to move on. Doesn't always happen, either in FF or in RL.

Gods know I would have told her exactly that, Cid was a colossus sized dick to the poor girl. It worked out in the end in this case, true, but without the rocket launch as the catalyst of change he'd have kept treating her like that forever. And she'd have kept taking it.

Okay, let's try writing it in first person:

It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.

But it wasn't written in first person. The text calls it Cloud and Tifa's home, not Barret's. You have just dishonestly changed the tense, and the wording, to match what you want. Had it been written in first person, "After helping Tifa and Cloud build THEIR home, I entrusted" would be just as viable.

Seems to work to me.

Of course it does, you have just made changes that allow it to say what you want it to say. It is, as stated, dishonest as fuck. And it doesn't bloody matter, because the story WAS NOT written that way.

I'll just have to take your word for it.

You should, dude is pretty damn good at this.

Unless he just thought of it yesterday for the first time. "Just one more day" may be referring to the strength of his desire to find redemption, rather than how long he has been planning it.

"Just one more day" would tend to indicate that there were quite a few days before it most of the time. That's just how the phrase is used in the majority of circumstances, it indicates a wait of some lengthier period of time and that it is now almost time for the wait to be over.

In other words, if it just occurred to him yesterday for the first time that he can't find redemption when he's with Marlene because she's an emotional crutch for him, the power of that realization may have made him want to leave NOW - and not delay it.

The story I read made it seem he'd had this on his mind for quite some time. And that he knew all along that with Marlene by his side, his heart would be too at peace to want to face and settle his past, that with her there to lean on (like a crutch!) emotionally, he'd just end up burying it and never dealing.

That would make sense, since there's several things in Case of Tifa which make it clear that he had been planning to stay - such as his original plan as stated to Cloud and Tifa:

The next day, Barret said in a serious tone, "How about we started a business and sold this wine?"
"We?" Cloud asked, surprised.
"Of course, you idiot! We can't draw customers! Tifa will have to do it."
....
"I dunno. But when we were half drunk yesterday, we laughed. We forgot all sorts of things right? That's the moment we're after." ~Case of Barret
Source: http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/caseoftifa/page05.php

Seems clear to me that Barret's including himself as part of the business.

Seems clear to me he's not, since he never once makes any mention whatsoever about what he's going to do in this business. Sure, he helps build the place. He helps open the business. He never takes part in the actual running of said business. He has no role there, not one assigned to him nor one he chooses. Almost the moment the place is finished, he leaves. It does not match up with the idea that he ever intended to stay there long term.

True, but the writer is writing from Barret's perspective. Therefore, it's from Barret's perspective that the writer says, "Cloud and Tifa's place".

The third person narration does give us more insight into Barret's mind than anyone else in the story, yes. And said narrative calls it "Cloud and Tifa's place" with no mention of Barret also having a claim to it as his own place. So if Barret was ever planning to live there... why is he only calling it their place, and not his own?

And again, if you write it in first person instead of third, it becomes clear that he could be referring to his own home, too:

It had been several months since that day—the chosen day. After helping Tifa and Cloud build our home, I entrusted my best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.

This is even worse than the first time you did this. Not cool lady. The story calls it Cloud and Tifa's home, rewriting the text to make Barret call it "our" home doesn't change what the ACTUAL STORY says.

But it can easily be inferred that she was wanting to "take off" in order to do it:

Am I the only one seeing how easy it is for you to infer things if you think it supports you, and how you demand direct statements in big flashing neon letters for the things that are ACTUALLY easy to infer? I doubt I am.

"I wanna go on a journey to settle my past."
Cloud nodded as if he understood.
"Settle your past...? But I want to do that too."
"You guys can do that here. Don't just take. Try proving that you can give too." ~Case of Tifa

Before we get to whatever you took from this passage, lemme tell ya what I see here. Barret wants to settle his past, and he feels the need to go on a journey to do so. Tifa wants to settle HER past too, but as Barret pointed out the best place for her to do that is at home, running her business with Cloud (and Marlene, since Barret fully intends to leave her with them at this time). Maybe Tifa would have wanted to go on a journey, maybe not. What we do know is that Barret has helped to give her everything she needs to settle her past without one. A home, a business, and a family.

Barret just finished saying that he was going on a journey in order to settle his past. Tifa says she wants to settle her past, too - so was she also wanting to go on a journey to do it, just like Barret? It's certainly possible.

And you can't support it one way or another. Maybe she did, who knows? I don't and neither do you. We do know what she decided to do, though, and that was to stay with Cloud and Marlene and settle her past that way.

Why else did Barret specify that she could do it here? Sounds like Barret thought that Tifa meant she wanted to leave, too.

Maybe he did think she wanted to leave. If so, was he right? Would Tifa have left without the home and business and family to give her a place to belong and settle her past in safety? If she went, would she have taken Cloud with her? Could she have left him behind, considering he has stated his intention to have her by his side from now on already at this point?

Most important question, since she DID stay to run the business, be with Cloud and raise Marlene together... do any of these "maybes" matter?

I can't answer that for Tifa. Was leaving Marlene behind necessary to settle Barret's past? He seemed to think so. Cloud seemed to think it was necessary to leave Tifa behind when he moved into Aerith's Church. If Barret and Cloud can leave people behind, so can Tifa.

Objection. Cloud did NOT go to the church to settle his past. Cloud went to the church to drag his past around with him until the geostigma inevitably killed him. He went there to suffer and wallow in his guilt and pain, not to put it behind him and move on. The man DID NOT THINK he had any chance of moving on at all by this time. He left Tifa and the kids behind so they didn't have to WATCH HIM SUFFER AND DIE.

ZurruZurru ZurruZurru, remember? Its not the same as what Barret did and you should know it by now.

Yes, she tends to be insecure - but that's not the point I'm making. My point is that Tifa has no reason to be insecure IF Cloud is making it clear to Tifa that he loves her and wants to be with her and wants to share his future with her.

Because insecure people become immediately uber-confident when someone makes expressions of their feelings to them, right? You can't deny that Cloud HAS SAID, TO TIFA, that he intends to have her by his side from now on. That is fact, you can read it yourself. So even if you're fighting the fact that he loves her, by your logic that means she should never be insecure about Cloud again. She's Tifa, she is gonna have her insecure moments anyway.

The story doesn't call it anything in particular before Barret leaves.

Then it was never called Barret's home at all, was it? When the story refers to it as someone's home, its Cloud and Tifa's place. Thanks for pointing out that the story does not back you up until you rewrite it Annie

Okay, fair enough. However, there's also nothing inherent in the word "journey" to imply that he won't return. I took a journey to Europe a number of years ago, and I was gone for over a year. However, I did return home.

That sounds more like a "trip to Europe" to me. With a trip, its a given that you plan to come back. With a journey, the duration of your travel is less exact, especially if your journey is open ended and doesn't have a defined stopping point like Barret's. You may not ever make it back at all. Now I don't disagree that Barret could and probably intends to come back for his daughter someday. I do disagree with you treating that as a given fact when we really cannot know this.

And you said yourself that it's likely Barret will return home:

And of course Barret will be back someday. His daughter is there. That doesn't entail that he's going to live at Seventh Heaven, though. ~Tres, Nov 6

And as I pointed out before - it doesn't entail that he's NOT going to live at Seventh Heaven, either.

Doesn't entail that he WILL either. It seems unlikely to me considering the stress the story puts on it being Cloud and Tifa's place, and NOT Barret's, but he COULD move in there somewhere down the road. Ergo, without knowing for sure, we can only use the details we DO know. We DO know Barret does not live there now, and that Cloud and Tifa DO and are raising a family together.

But the story only said that Marlene had always slept with Tifa - not with Cloud and Tifa.

I will give you that, by my own logic (what I said when you tried to say Cloud being asleep on the couch makes Tifa's actions less creepy when it does not). She and Denzel have their own room with single sized beds by the time of AC/C though, so she doesn't look to be sleeping with Tifa forever.

And just to reiterate, the voice of the narrator is speaking from Barret's perspective.

And just to reiterate, it still never gives Barret any ownership of 7th Heaven as either a home or a business, and places these roles directly on Cloud and Tifa. What are you trying to argue exactly?

In the first place, I don't agree that it's "officially Cloud and Tifa's home".

You don't agree with what the story and Ultimanias directly tell us? Shocking, that is. Folks, Anastar will refuse to agree with and accept ANYTHING that would be bad for her position. We already knew this, but its been confirmed once again right here.

However, if you want substantiation, I refer again to where Barret suggested to Cloud and Tifa that "WE" start a business together.

"Hey yo Cloud, I think WE should start a business that'll be entirely dependent on Tifa. No, I ain't gonna work there, just get it started. I got to get out and settle my past! Just didn't wanna leave you dumbasses hangin! Watch my kid for me ya spikey headed runt!"

Too much sarcasm? I'll just flat say "start" does not equal "work at" then. He can help them get it going without ever intending to stay.

He was including himself in the business.

Was he? Again, "We should open a business" can easily refer to him helping them get the joint built and stocked before leaving. That would be the three of them OPENING the business. He doesn't have to plan on sticking around once the opening is complete.

He helped Cloud and Tifa build the Seventh Heaven for that business that he was intending to run with them.

Show me where he said he had such an intention. Go on, I'll wait. I won't hold my breath, but I'll wait.

So the Seventh Heaven is officially Cloud and Barret and Tifa's business, according to Case of Tifa. Why wouldn't he return once he resolves his past?

It is never called this. Ever. It is officially, according to the narrative, Tifa and Cloud's place. Barret's name is never attached to it. Nothing declares his intention to stay and work there with them. Again, ever. He helps open the business, and then he leaves it to Tifa and Cloud. Why would he return to a place he never had a role in? For that matter, how long does it take a man to settle his past? It very much seems to be a "It'll be done when its done" kind of task doesn't it? For all we know, Marlene could be out of school and have a place of her own by the time he finishes this journey. Considering he doesn't know when this train he's gotten on will stop, Barret may not even be MAKING plans for what to do afterward just yet.

I'm insulting no one.

I was insulted. I've pointed out my own family situation regarding my daughter when you tried to force Barret into the nuclear family before, so you should know that YES YOU ARE.

And yes, I've seen such a family, since I had two foster children living with me for almost two years.

The fact that you are not insulted by your attitude towards such families does not mean no one ever will be. Especially when someone (me) has voiced such feelings before.

What you say doesn't rule out that fact that Marlene still regards Barret as her father.

NO ONE IS SAYING SHE DOESN'T!

In some foster families, the foster kids call their foster parents Mom and Dad. In other foster families, the foster kids call the foster parents by their first names.

Either way, the foster parents are still most definitely their foster PARENTS, and thus still family. This is part of my issue with you pointing out the fact that the kids call Cloud and Tifa by name, it is meaningless if they do or not.

Regardless of what the foster child calls the foster parent(s), it doesn't mean that the biological parent(s) aren't still the real parent(s).

Well thank the gods, my daughter is still mine then despite her having TWO MORE father figures. I can rest easy now, eh?

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Barret won't come back and live at the Seventh Heaven.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he WILL live there either, nor any estimate of when he would come back to stay if he even intends to.

[quote[Marlene obviously considers Barret part of her family, since she still calls him "Daddy".[/quote]

Her family, yes. Barret is Marlene's family. He is not part of THE family being discussed, that being Tifa, Cloud, Marlene, and Denzel. Denzel does not in fact even know who the fuck he IS until near the end of AC/C. Marlene has TWO families, just like my daughter. Barret is NOT PART of the 7th Heaven family.

In Case of Tifa, Marlene invited Cloud into the family.

Are you STILL on about that? A little girl with a sense of humor makes a teasing remark, which Cloud reacts to with polite seriousness as is his habit, and yet we're meant to take it literally huh? Cloud WOULDN'T be in the family if Marlene hadn't invited him, is that it?

Since Marlene's the one inviting Cloud into the family, and Marlene considers Barret part of the family,

Please stop saying this. Two families. Happens all the time. If you've fostered kids you should know how this works.

then Barret would be part of the nuclear family, too.

No, he wouldn't. For Denzel at least he'd be a family friend or, at best, a weird uncle with a badass arm. Neither of these things are nuclear family material. The ONLY person he would be NUCLEAR FAMILY to would be Marlene. Again, that girl has TWO families.

Also, Tifa includes Barret in the family when she says that the family is made up of friends.

The family of friends that she was a part of BEFORE the 7th Heaven family was formed. The family of friends she did not bother to inform her kid, Denzel, about until they showed up to kick a dragon's ass. That family of friends is, and I'll make sure you notice this part cause it's important, NOT THE NUCLEAR FAMILY WE ARE DISCUSSING!!!!1!!!ONE!!!

At the end of AC/ACC, we see two pictures. One with Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene.

That's a picture of the nuclear family. That is THE family, the 7th Heaven family. Note that Barret is not in that one.

The other picture is Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait Sith, and RedXIII with Aerith's flowers in front. These are the friends that Tifa originally said are part of the family.

That is the 7th Heaven family (Cloud/Tifa/Denzel/Marlene ONLY) and the family of friends that is AVALANCHE. Two families, related but distinct, being photographed together. Again, Tifa NEVER SAID her friends were part of THE family, which is obvious to anyone who isn't twisting shit in their favor against all logic since THE family DIDN'T EXIST when she said it.

And you claim not to be dishonest? I gotta echo Tres, why do you always lie?

It's obvious that any of them would be welcome to stay at the Seventh Heaven. These are the friends Cloud and Tifa traveled with throughout FFVII - the same friends that show up in AC/ACC and other parts of the Compilation, and the same friends who show up in AU games like Kingdom Hearts. They can easily be considered part of the family.

I'm sure the family would welcome any of the friends from the OG into their home yes. They are their close friends, allies, etc. They saved the world together, they're tight. That doesn't make them part of THE family. My uncle stayed with us for years when I was younger. He was family, but not part of the nuclear family unit that was my parents, me, and my siblings. YOU can easily consider them part of THE family, but only by ignoring what said family IS. Those of us who acknowledge these simple facts, we cannot so easily consider them as such because THEY'RE NOT!

Also, AU games are not compilation. Didn't you have a thing about NOT going outside the compilation a while back? Pick a position on SOMETHING already, would ya?

I said this yesterday, but I'll say it again. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right and you're wrong.

Yes you are, and I'll tell ya why below.

I'm trying to show that there is more than one way to interpret the situation.

And we're saying there is only one CORRECT way to interpret the situation. You are, therefore, trying to prove us wrong. You may not be arguing explicitly for Clerith is canon, but "there is no canon at all" is just as much in opposition to our position of "Cloti is canon" anyway. You ARE trying to prove us wrong, or at least you should be if you hold that position. Its still a debate, you still need to support your side of things, and you still can't do that without rampant dishonesty. Which, for the record, isn't real support.

What I'm saying is just as likely and just as valid as what you're saying. SE left it open to interpretation.

No, and no again. You aren't supporting what you say with REAL, FACTUAL evidence from the Comp. or its sourcebooks. The best you can do is point out some areas where neither side has a concrete bit of proof, like whether or not Barret will live at 7th Heaven when he comes back. These do not support your position, they just remove one piece of potential support from ours, and we have plenty more that can't be so removed. You have just about nothing to back up your claims, so no what you say is neither as likely nor as valid as ours on the majority of important issues.

Further, SE has no doubt left many things open to the imagination. The resolution to the love triangle that was (past tense, was) Tifa-->Cloud<--Aerith is NOT ONE OF THEM. That has been clearly spelled out for anyone who knows where to look.

And how does that make me wrong? All I said was that Denzel and Marlene call Cloud and Tifa by their first names.

And it was pointed out to you that despite this, Denzel is directly said to view Tifa as his mom and Cloud as his dad. Ergo, they are Denzel's family. And just to reiterate once more, despite it not being explicitly mentioned in what I am quoting here, Barret is not.

I never said that one expressed romantic intentions and the other did not. According to the scenario I described, both had said they weren't romantically interested.

And you still cannot reconcile this "sharing of disinterest" with the fact that the LA version features a conversation that is "apathetic and ends short" with no such sharing occurring. You fail still to mesh this with the official status of Tifa's feelings of love and interest in Cloud being very much present beyond the HW scene.

And right now, Tifa is NOT interested.

Bullshit. Back up this claim or stop making it, please.

She may have in the back of her mind that someday she hopes things might work out between them - but for now, she knows that it's not a good idea to get involved with Cloud, so she has no intentions of getting romantically involved.

Same as the above. Bullshit. Back this up with something concrete if you can. Concrete means no quote mines, no twisting of the words, no making shit up wholesale, and no "maybe" or "possibly" type statements. Show us something that DID happen or WAS said, either by the characters or their creators, that supports your conclusion that Tifa believes its a bad idea to get involved with Cloud, and that she therefore somehow both has no intention of getting romantically involved with him/is hoping things will work out between them WHICH IS A DELAYED BY PRESENT INTEREST IN GETTING ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED and therefore totally contradictory to your own position. If you can't do that, (the if really isn't necessary here) then you need to stop pretending this is a valid view of events.

Yes, I can substantiate it with the fact that Cloud leaves at the end of Case of Tifa to live in Aerith's Church. We have no idea how long he was planning to leave before he left.

He left when he got geostigma and started dying, not to settle his past. This does not substantiate your claims that Cloud might have wanted to leave all along, especially in light of his direct statement of intent to have Tifa by his side from then on.

No, I said that Case of Tifa showed that Barret's original plan was to stay there, which would mean that he was planning to live there.

And then many holes were poked in your claim. You showed nothing but maybes and could bes to begin with, and I personally have showed how you could be quite wrong in this very post. And what you just said above fails to refute Tres at all.

The world as they knew it is disheveled right now. All of them are feeling guilty. All of them are wanting to find redemption for their sins. None of them are sure how to do it. It doesn't seem to me that any of them have any definite plans at this point.

You just said Barret definitely planned to stay at Seventh Heaven. Please pick a consistent position.

Do you not see the contradiction in claiming Barret is shown in CoT to plan on staying and working at 7th Heaven AND simultaneously claiming no one has any definite plans at all? Cause we see it. And we are most definitely calling you on it.

Would you PLEASE stop thinking that I'm trying to prove you wrong?

If you do not intend to prove us wrong, with our position being "The Love Triangle has been resolved and Cloud is officially with Tifa," then would you concede and get it over with? Again, "there is no canon" is still in opposition to "Cloti is canon" just as much as your former position of "Clerith is canon" was.

I think either interpretation is possible. I think Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. I think it's optional and up to the player.

You think wrong, and if you want anyone to believe you you'll need to support it with factual evidence. But if you're not trying to prove your case, which would in turn be the only way to prove us wrong, you're never going to do that, so again if you have no intention of doing so then we will gladly accept your concession and congratulate your tenacity for hanging in there so long

When I said that the LA version is indicated, I mean that Tifa's complex feelings would substantiate the LA version instead of the HA version. It's more evidence of one than the other. I do not think it proves that the LA scene happens, but it is evidence to show that the LA version is possible.

Except its not. You have to out and out make shit up about the LA version to force it to fit with your warped view of the narrative while simultaneously ignoring the official status of the HA version for that to even be possible. The LA version is not indicated by anything, it did not happen.

Possible, BTW, is indicated by the word COULD, which I put in caps so you wouldn't miss it.

We know what words like could and possible mean Annie. It's not something really complex, like how labels work or what a chair looks like.

Here, I will put this in caps, too, so you won't miss it:

EITHER THE HA OR LA VERSION IS POSSIBLE. THE HA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD LOVES TIFA. THE LA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD DOES NOT LOVE TIFA. BOTH VERSIONS ARE POSSIBLE. THAT'S WHY I SAY THERE IS NO CANON.

I shall return the favor for you, and use caps so YOU don't miss this:

YOU ARE INCORRECT, THE HA VERSION IS CONFIRMED AS THE OFFICIAL. PAGE 232 DOES NOT CHANGE THIS, IT IN FACT REINFORCES IT WITH A DIRECT STATEMENT THAT MUTUAL FEELINGS WERE SHARED. NO SUCH SHARING OCCURS IN THE LA VERSION DESPITE THE CLAIMS OF SUCH YOU HAVE PULLED FROM YOUR ASS. ONLY ONE VERSION IS POSSIBLE GIVEN THIS INFORMATION. THAT'S WHY YOU ARE WRONG, BECAUSE THERE IS A CANON OUTCOME.

SE says that both versions are possible:

Blatant goddamn lies do not make for an honest and open debate.

(quotes removed because this is a long response and we all have seen them already)

Sorry, I only have those quotes in blue font - I have no idea how to change the color to regular font. If I choose black, then everyone says they can't see it.

Just remove the color tags when you post them in the reply field, and they'll go back to normal color.

But SE says right there that both versions are possible. The script of both the LA and HA versions can be found in the FFVII Ultimania Omega.

Still ignoring that it DOES NOT SAY they are both possible in the narrative. It says depending on how YOU played, you can see either one. It goes on to say that events we know to only happen in one version DID happen. End of. QED. You are still pretending that the presence of a deviation means we cannot possibly know which one happened, but we CAN know this.

Furthermore, you have said yourself that how often something appears does not indicate that it is canon. From your essay on my site:

While it's true that Maiden of the Planet is never listed as being part of the Compilation, this does not necessarily mean that it isn't canon. For example, let's take FFVII Kaitai Shinsho or FFVII Dismantled to English speaking fans. It is an official strategy guide by Square Enix that was released in 1997 with official interviews, information on the game, materia, enemies and weapons, and even monologues by the characters.... Dismantled and the Ultimanias are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they do, in fact, contain official and correct information that Square approves and publishes in many books.

Things that are not listed as part of the Compilation does not exclude them from being canon or official. This should not be used as a reason for Maiden not being official. ~Maiden of the Canon, by Quexinos and TresDias

You say that MotP is still official/canon even though it's not listed as part of the Compilation. You say that Dismantled and the Ultimania's are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they are still canon.

So why does the LA version of the HW scene need to be in story summaries before it's considered official/canon? According to you, it doesn't matter whether something is cited frequently or not.

Just because Tres argues there that Maiden CAN be considered canon does not mean that all information has the same weight. A story summary is, by definition, a summary of WHAT HAPPENED in the story. It directly tells us mutual feelings WERE shared under the HW. No feelings are shared in the LA version. Ergo, HA version is official. It is a very different matter from considering that Maiden just might have happened.

SE has stated that the HW scene diverges into two conditions. The script of the LA version is in the FFVII UO. SE considers both versions valid.

See above, with an additional "no they don't and you need to support it for real if you want us to believe they do" added on.

I really wanted to get to the "dishonesty" accusations tonight, but I have no more time. I'll get to it tomorrow night.

Well, you've gotten several new accusations to respond to from me with the post you just made. Here's a tip, stop being dishonest and you wouldn't NEED to respond to these accusations. Keep it up and you'll never catch up on dealing with them all.

 

[Ryushikaze]

In very, VERY simple terms, 'There is no canon outcome' is a statement in opposition to 'There is a canon outcome.'

Our position- and what used to be your position, hell, IS STILL your position on your own forum- is that there is a canon outcome. So you are trying to say you are right and we are wrong.

But it's worse than that. You're trying to say YOU ARE RIGHT about the content of scenes, the meaning of creator comments, and all sorts of other things ALL THE TIME.

And most of the time, you have nothing except bald speculation to support it.
7th heaven is called Cloud and Tifa's home, and you argue it should be considered Barret's too.
We all KNOW why you do it, too. You're fooling no one but yourself, Annie.

Oh, and Octo, Anastar is an American using a VA IP address. She's in my same time zone or one behind, depending on her routing through AOL's services.

 

[Vendel]

So that boils down to this: does Cloud's depression and undying feeling of guilt stem from his romantic feelings for her? It's possible, yes, but it's also possible that it's also not. But even if he loved her, his guilt is what causing his problems, not his desire to be with her.

Such a simple and brilliant statement. And it really boils down one of the issues I have with people who say Cloud is depressed because he is/was "in love" with Aerith. Or that either of them is seeking a post death relationship.

Think about it. It had been nearly two years. And if some people are to be believed Cloud and Aerith truly loved each other. And Cloud's desire is to meet Aerith again. And the pain of her loss is what drives him. Yet when they finally do meet? Neither one expresses a longing for the other. No "I missed you" or "I just wanted to see you again" etc etc.

What we get is a short talk about guilt and forgiveness. She even leaves with her Ex in the end.

Wait...what?

This is the culmination of the C/A romance?

 

[Dashell]

EITHER THE HA OR LA VERSION IS POSSIBLE. THE HA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD LOVES TIFA. THE LA VERSION INDICATES THAT CLOUD DOES NOT LOVE TIFA. BOTH VERSIONS ARE POSSIBLE. THAT'S WHY I SAY THERE IS NO CANON.

And even if Cloud does NOT love Tifa, that doesn't prove he LOVES Aerith

Furthermore, you have said yourself that how often something appears does not indicate that it is canon. From your essay on my site:

While it's true that Maiden of the Planet is never listed as being part of the Compilation, this does not necessarily mean that it isn't canon. For example, let's take FFVII Kaitai Shinsho or FFVII Dismantled to English speaking fans. It is an official strategy guide by Square Enix that was released in 1997 with official interviews, information on the game, materia, enemies and weapons, and even monologues by the characters.... Dismantled and the Ultimanias are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they do, in fact, contain official and correct information that Square approves and publishes in many books.

Things that are not listed as part of the Compilation does not exclude them from being canon or official. This should not be used as a reason for Maiden not being official. ~Maiden of the Canon, by Quexinos and TresDias

You're going to want to throw that back at me since I wrote that part and not Tres. He only helped with the contradictions part... but he said that already but I'm going to confirm it just so everyone knows it's true

 

[Master Bates]

Ramza wrote he doesn't know how the LA scene translates into him liking Aerith.

I don't know how videogames translate into liking videogames, but I sure do like videogames.

I know one thing's for sure, the mystique of his decidedly not romantic relationship with Aerith was one of the high points of it. Aerith had this almost phantasmagoric quality which made her existence itself feel ephemeral, though not quite so that you wonder if she was alive in the first place.

Except this isn't what I mean. My point was, even if we are to take LA into account (and that Cloud isn't in love with Tifa there), it still doesn't support C/A. Because the scene was about Cloud and Tifa. Even in the supporting books, in story summaries, it has always been about THEM (Cloud and Tifa), no mention of Aerith whatsoever so I honestly don't see why this is to be taken as a point for C/A.

"Sephiroth clones" (genetic duplicates?), "Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on" (alien settlers?), "...Tseng's with our enemy, the Turks, but I've known him since we were little..." (obvious), "But you really got guts doin' my boss in like that!" (I guess Tseng died?), "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came" (JENOVA's got a penis?), "Knowlespole" (not "North Pole"?), "Meteor is approaching the Planet. Holy is having the opposite effect" (the "opposite effect"? Not "backfiring"? Not "being counterproductive due to Meteor's close proximity to the planet"?)

Oh, my favorites are: "This guy are sick" and Jenova's "Beacause you are a puppet, Cloud" (Jenova's ONLY line and it's even butchered).

And I don't really have a problem with them using the word "probably", because in Accounting terms, "probability" means having good percentage of certainty and when that term is used, we assume that the "probable event" will eventually happen, almost without fail. Though yeah, it does change the intensity of the sentence a little bit. But then, I'm talking Accounting so what do I know. I should just focus with my Accounting papers.

I'll just have to take your word for it.

Is it just me or does this sound insulting? Because Anastar makes it sound like Tres is creating these statements when he is only laying them to the table. These words are from SE. They are SE's words, not Tres'.

And just to reiterate, the voice of the narrator is speaking from Barret's perspective.

Third person limited. Oh yes, do remember this when you're reading CoLW too, will you Anastar?

And no, Annie. If you think the LA scene is about Cloud loving Aerith and "rejecting" Tifa, then the LA and HA can NOT be both possible because the story summary explicitly states that there was a confirmation and matching of romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa during the Highwind scene. The sharing of mutual feelings, it happened whether you like it or not.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are people forgetting the rules of the LTD again?

No video smilies (i.e. MLP response videos), or spam here. Period.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

By the way, everyone, I've not forgotten Anastar's newest post. I'm just waiting for her to get caught up before I respond.

It's an epic asspain to send a reply, get a response to half of it, respond to that, and then get a response to the other half of the previous message that repeats things your most recent message has already addressed.

So, just going to wait a bit.

 

[Dashell]

And just so no one tries to argue I'm avoiding anything.

While it's true that Maiden of the Planet is never listed as being part of the Compilation, this does not necessarily mean that it isn't canon. For example, let's take FFVII Kaitai Shinsho or FFVII Dismantled to English speaking fans. It is an official strategy guide by Square Enix that was released in 1997 with official interviews, information on the game, materia, enemies and weapons, and even monologues by the characters.... Dismantled and the Ultimanias are never listed as part of the Compilation, but they do, in fact, contain official and correct information that Square approves and publishes in many books.

Things that are not listed as part of the Compilation does not exclude them from being canon or official. This should not be used as a reason for Maiden not being official. ~Maiden of the Canon, by Quexinos and TresDias

What I said was way different from what you quoted. I was specifically talking about things that are said to be part of the Compilation here. I was saying, "Just because something isn't part of the Compilation, doesn't mean it doesn't contain canon information."

What I think you WANTED to quote, was this part:

Reason #3. Maiden of the Planet is non canon due to the fact that it never gets mentioned again by Square Enix, even as something that is not part of the Compilation. Last Order is not an official entry but Square still mentions it every so often. Maiden never gets mentioned, therefore it cannot be canon.

This implies that it matters how often something is mentioned. Dismantled was never mentioned again, but it's an official strategy guide. The Ultimanias don't mention one another very often either. As for Last Order, yes it gets mentioned, but it's NOT an official entry of the Compilation. So clearly how often something gets mentioned has no basis on how canon or official something is.

Conclusion on Reason 3: Sometimes things are mentioned again and some times they aren't. This doesn't, in anyway, make them unofficial or not canon.

But again, first off, I wasn't talking about cutscenes here, I was speaking specifically about published materials.

Second, in order for my argument to work, you have to realize that Square has never said, "These things are canon: this, that, this, that, that, and this." When you don't have such a statement, you have to make educated guesses as to what IS canon, as I did in my essay.

However, when you have Square flat out tell us something, like putting a scene in a story summary which is basically saying "This happened." the argument doesn't work anymore. If they never specified which version of the HA scene happened, then you could use this argument, but they have so it's different. Also as GLD says, not all information has the same weight.

Idk if that makes any sense, but you brought up an interesting point to throw at me (though technically you threw it at Tres ). Maybe I should reconsider my stance on whether or not Maiden is canon.

 

[Danseru-kun]

In my post yesterday, I pointed out examples of several FF characters who are in pretty much the same situation. Yuna doesn't move on from Tidus in FFX-2.

I forgot to point out yesterday that this is not exactly what Tifa's situation is. As of the start of FFX-2, Tidus is dead, so Yuna is not waiting for him to love her. Also, she has no reason to find a replacement for Tidus asap.

There should be a distinction between moving on from a person who does not love you and moving on from the death of your loved one.