First off, just to put it out there:
DISCLAIMER:
1. I do not have any malicious feelings with this post
2. I am not trying to insult you in any way.
3. If you feel offended when reading something I say, please don't. If I intend to be offensive, I'll let you know.
4. It's not a party, it's an intimate get together
Actually, the dozens of quotes alluding to the HW scene do not specify the HA version of the scene, nor has the HA version been stated to happen several times.
ALL of the quotes referring to the HW scene say only that feelings were exchanged with no specification about WHAT feelings were exchanged. The ONLY time specific feelings are suggested is when which version is specified. Some examples:
*snip*
I'm sorry but this is incorrect, many of those do talk about romantic feelings or are talking about the HA scene. Take into account that we KNOW all quotes talking about the HA highwind scene are speaking of romantic feelings. This is because the FTIOL page tells us that at least the HA Highwind scene is romantic, right?
Remember we spoke about how the 10th AU was talking about the HA Highwind scene because it used a picture of the HA Highwind scene in the story summary?
Here's a link to the post to help refresh your memory:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?p=365367&highlight=story+summary#post365367
and a link to the image saved in LQ so it's not hard on your 56K:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8074/10auhwlq.jpg
So the quote from the 10th AU
IS speaking about the HA highwind scene. So this quote that you posted:
"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118, and pg. 120 in the Revised Edition, story summary
Is about romantic feelings. There's also the one posted on page 232 of the 20th AU. THIS is the page that the FTOIL page links to so it's also speaking of romantic feelings.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/PhoenixStar/Page232-FF20thAU.jpg
The underlined version is talking about the High Affection scene. So this quote:
"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." ~FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; FFVII's story summary
is also romantic. So that's two quotes you posted that are in fact, talking about the HA scene which makes them romantic feelings.
As for the rest of the quotes you posted, I'd like to point out, the phrase "想いを通わせる" is used in 3 of the other quotes you posted.
- クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「ＡＣ」「Ｄ Ｃ」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。
("She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.")
- 最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせ。
("Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.")
- クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。
("When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. ")
According to an
unbiased expert at all experts.com, the phrase "想いを通わせる" (which is used in 3 of the other quotes you posted) is NOT used for sharing feelings of friendship or mutual romantic disinterest. It's only used in romantic situations and NOT for "mere friendship.
all experts guy said:
想いを通わせる implies something intimate.
-----
Yes, as in, only used among those with some sort of intimate relationship. I've not heard it used among "mere friends" even if close. The implication is romantic.
I did further research and asked a Japanese native on a
Japanese forum I sometimes go to for help. She said the phrase 想いを通わせる is used in the case of high understanding and deep communication. The 通わ part means something is two way and not one way. If two people aren't communicating with each other or have no respect for each other 想いを通わせる would not be used. It simply does NOT fit a conversation described to be apathetic.
I also showed her the quote from the CC Ultimania and she had this to say:
Japanese native said:
The sentence in question is clearly about a romantic relationship. I would not even use the rather wordy and literally-translated phrase "communicated her feelings together with ~~" if I were translating it. I would simply say "She fell in love with ~~" if that fits the context.
------
Show me a native Japanese-speaker that thinks the sentence below is NOT about a romantic relationship, I will show you a liar.
Now I'm sure you can do research on your own but this is what I found. I specifically asked people who were not familiar with FF so that they would be completely unbiased.
My point with all this.
This makes 7 of the 8 "feelings" quote speaking about romantic aka the High Affection Highwind scene. The only one that seems unspecific is this one:
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198, story summary
That's one quote to seven. That's seven times they've said the HA scene happens. Please respond with your thoughts to this. And FYI, I AM aware the UO tells about the LA version and has a script of it. the UO is very thorough and has a script of all diversions in the game. It also speaks about every optional scene such as getting Vincent and Yuffie, Lucrecia's cave and others.
As Materia Thief explained above, the sentence is actually saying that Tifa’s complicated feelings are due to Cloud thinking that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and Cloud taking care of Denzel.
And, according to that quote, why did Cloud think Aerith brought Denzel to him?
Tifa's profile says that Tifa carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, and Aerith is said to be a love rival. As a love rival, Aerith was attempting to equal or surpass Tifa as a love interest to Cloud. Tifa's profile goes on to say in the second paragraph that this is due to the fact that Cloud thought that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and that Cloud is visiting Aerith's church. That sure sounds like jealousy to me.
Then why does it say complicated feelings and not just "complicated feeling" if it's only jealousy? And what does jealousy prove? Rob, my BF of many years, said to me the other day he was jealous that I was spending so much time with my brother lately. This doesn't mean I romantically love my brother, does it?
You say that Aerith does not literally live on inside of Cloud, but Nomura says in Distance that Aerith does live inside of Cloud. In the world of FFVII, it may indeed be possible, since Cloud has more Mako energy (Lifestream) inside of him than the “normal” human due to being submerged in the Lifestream for a lengthy period of time and also because Cloud was infused with Mako energy during the experimentation by Hojo.
We know it's figurative because of the other evidence that tells us Aerith is not inside of Cloud. She's in the Lifestream in CoLW, and in Maiden.
10th AU Playback said:
And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.
Back to the current of life flowing around the planet
This quote from the 10th AU specifies the Lifestream as the current of life flowing
around the planet (not inside of Cloud) and that this is where Aerith and Zack belong. This makes us conclude that Nomura was speaking figuratively because there is no evidence that Aerith lives directly inside of Cloud, but that she is in the Lifestream that's moving around the planet.
But let’s say that it does mean Aerith returned to the Lifestream in the manner you take it to mean. Aerith was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, was she not? If she was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, and she left the Lifestream during AC/ACC, that means Aerith is able to leave the Lifestream. So it doesn’t matter if she “returned” – AC/ACC shows that Aerith can leave the Lifestream any time she wants.
But it is where she belongs, right? Why tell us that if she doesn't really belong there?
But Yuna continued loving Tidus despite the lack of an actual relationship, didn’t she? That just goes to show that an actual relationship isn’t necessary in order for someone to continue loving someone else after that person has died.
True.
Nomura makes it clear that he's not just talking about Cloud's memories of Aerith. He says that Aerith's consciousness actually lives on inside of Cloud - and in the world of FFVII, that's totally possible.
I apologize if I missed it then, but can you please post evidence of this then? Are there cases in FFVII where someone else lives inside of someone? I would like examples of this specifically, BTW, not just examples of weird stuff happening. I know the FFVII universe isn't like ours, but I would like other examples of a person living inside another person.
And how do you know that Aerith wasn’t able to speak with Ifalna after Ifalna died? Aerith says that Ifalna spoke to her, but Aerith doesn’t specify whether or not she speaks back to Ifalna. The Ancients in the Temple of Ancients are able to speak with Aerith even though they are dead, and Aerith is able to speak back to them. Since Cloud is able to speak with Aerith during AC/ACC, then we know it’s possible for spirits to speak with the living in that universe.
So, if this is so common, why the grief when Aerith dies? if a dead person can speak to a live person at any time, why is there grief when someone dies?
The warrior Seto cries when RedXIII visits him with Bugenhagen, even though he’s dead. So once again, we see the dead hearing and interacting with the living in the universe of FFVII.
Seto wasn't dead, he was frozen.
Vincent speaking with a “dead” Lucrecia in the Crystal Caverns during FFVII shows the dead interacting with the living in that universe.
Lucrecia wasn't dead.
[Dead] Sephiroth speaking with Cloud and Avalanche during FFVII and AC/ACC again shows a dead person speaking with the living, so we know it’s possible in that universe.
Then again I ask, if a dead person can speak to a live person at any time, why is there grief when someone dies?
And how is that any different from Aerith manifesting in AC/ACC? Aerith’s spirit was able to hold Cloud’s hand and boost him up during the hand reach scene, so Aerith had manifested to the extent that she is able to touch him and he is able to touch her. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm in the back to back scene, so she had once again manifested to the extent that she is able to interact with him on a physical level.
Okay sorry I'm not sure what point Zealkin was making here... was it that Aerith can't interact with Cloud or something? I'll let her deal with this.
What makes you think it doesn’t continue?
Do you have any evidence is does? It's up to YOU to prove your points, not for us to disprove them.
Aerith dying isn’t proof enough alone, since I’ve shown that spirits are able to interact with living people in the universe of FFVII. There are also several examples of living people who continue to love people who have died, in the universe of FFVII, such as Dyne and Eleanor; Barret and Myrna; and Vincent and Lucrecia.
Why all the grief then... blah blah blah?
As for where you said “the Tifa quote doesn’t”… which “Tifa quote” are you talking about? Because it seems clear to me that the love triangle HAS continued with the quote from Tifa’s profile:
Idk maybe because Cloud was showing he still felt guilty about Aerith's death and all?
Where does the quote say that Cloud is wavering only at the beginning of the game?
Because that's the only time you can control Cloud to waver.
Okay, but that’s merely your interpretation. If you don’t think Aerith being engraved in Cloud’s heart means that Cloud loves Aerith, then how can you think that Cloud sharing feelings with Tifa under the HW means that he loves Tifa?
Because we've been told 7 times out of 8 that there was romance. The phrase "engraved in one's heart/mind" does not always have romantic implications. We also know because we look at the greater context of the Compilation. Cloud started a family with her, Cloud having her in a different way and blushing around her, Nojima saying they belong together (same location or not), Nojima speaking about them in the context of love, marriage and family, them having a future together ... and others. When you take all of these into consideration and not just pick them apart one at a time, it paints a picture.
Furthermore, being “engraved in his heart” is nothing like the Promise being “etched in his memory.” Something in your memory is something that you remember, like a definition or someone’s name or an email address. Something in your heart is something that you have an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to you.
In both cases the same word is used actually.
The verb for "etched"/"engraved" used in both cases was 刻, with Aerith said to be engraved in his heart/mind (心
and the promise with Tifa engraved in his chest/heart (胸
. It's an idiom for something one will never forget. For example:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%BF%83%E3%81%AB...m/1C262B3YS5OF0
"Game Sound engraved in [my] heart"
A list of game soundtracks.
http://www.ntv.co.jp/kokoro/
"Scenary engraved in [our] hearts"
A program showcasing different places.
http://cyblog.jp/modules/weblogs/824
心に刻まれた10冊
"10 [books] engraved in my heart"
http://b.hatena.ne.jp/entry/www.itmedia.co.jp/bizid/articles/0610/13/news051.html
心に刻まれた不快な言葉を上書きする
"Overwriting the unpleasant words engraved in your heart"
http://www.city.agano.niigata.jp/shicho/massage_0908nihonbunri.htm
心に刻まれた日本の思い出
"Memories of Japan engraved in my heart"
That's 5 non-romantic examples. Do you have examples of it being romantic?
For reference purposes:
"彼の心に生涯刻まれることとなる古代種の血を引く少女" (Aerith quote)
"胸にきざまれたティファとの約束" (Tifa quote)
So both could be engraved in his heart depending on who translates it.
If Aerith is Tifa’s love rival, then they are in a love triangle with Cloud. If Cloud is in a love triangle with Tifa and Aerith, then his feelings are wavering between both girls. Nowhere does it say that the Love Triangle ends when Aerith dies. In fact, the date mechanism influences which version of the HW scene you get, so the date mechanism continues influencing the events in Disk Two, which shows that the Love Triangle is still at work at that time.
I actually don't disagree with this. Cloud's actions influence the HW scene. I also agree that it's about who Cloud loves and not who he can be with so saying that Aerith is dead therefore not in the Love Triagle is also wrong IMO. However, I do disagree with some of what you say to some extent because Square has told us what version of events happened 7 times. They've told us of many optional events and so on, but that doesn't stop them from having a canon version.
All I know is that the translation was given to us. People have asked for a scan of the page from the person who translated it, but the scan hasn’t been provided to us yet.
I have found this but I'm afraid it doesn't say what you thought it did.
クラウドに好意を抱き、あっという間に親しい仲に。
She is fond of Cloud, and in no time at all they became close.
It's a caption in Aerith's profile, top right corner of page 29. 'Fond of' is the old standard for having (the foundations of) a romantic interest in someone. The 親しい仲 part might have been where they got 'something between them' from, I'm not sure.
But it’s not just like the Promise, since it’s said in Cloud’s profile that the Promise is etched in his memory, which implies something that he remembers like someone’s name or a definition or an email address. Being engraved in his heart is something that he has an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to him.
See above. And once again, the phrase is used for something that you don't forget. There isn't automatically romantic implications. And again, I've seen you use the official translation of the koibito quote in reunion files countless times and dismiss fan translations. Please pick a constant stance on whether or not fan translations should be used.
A picture of the Clerith date labeled as optional and a picture of the HW scene labeled as optional under a title of “Love Between Heroes” on the FTOIL page IS a quote which shows that love between the two heroines is optional. That’s what the FTOIL page is saying.
Is what I bolded an opinion or a fact? Also can you please highlight on the FTOIL page where this deviation is listed? I don't see it. You obviously have the picture, so can you please circle it or something?
So is the quote from Kitase about the hero wavering between the two heroines. Kitase never says that Cloud only wavers between the two heroines at the beginning of the game.
No but you only have the option to waver in the beginning.
again
A. This does not mean there isn't a canon outcome more than Shadow surviving in FF6 doesn't have a canon outcome
B. Once you stop "wavering" or your options go away, the choice has been made.
Another thing reinforcing the idea of love being optional are the statements in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO about there being two versions of the HW scene, one being low affection and one being high affection. The fact that there is a high affection and a low affection version in itself says that Cloud loving Tifa is optional, especially when there is nothing in the Compilation after the HW scene which conclusively shows that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.
Is the Highwind scene the only thing that proves who Cloud loves? What if I'm mean to both Aerith, and Tifa? I get Yuffie's date and the LA scene. Does this mean Cloud loves Aerith? What if I get Aerith's date and the HA scene? (which is completely possible, and what I believe is the canon way that happened)
SE has never stated that the High Affection version of the HW scene is canon OR default. This is merely an opinion you and other Cloti’s have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the HA version is canon (except in your opinion).
SE has never said the FTOIL page is saying Cloud's love is optional. This is merely an opinion you and others have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the FTOIL page is sayin Cloud's love is optional. (except in your opinion) (I so went there
)
And now once again, you’re asking me for evidence that Cloud’s feelings are optional instead of static during the game. Why do I need a quote that proves Cloud’s feelings are optional during the game when there’s no quote proving that Cloud’s feelings are static during the game?
Okay, I agree that Cloud can waver between the two in the game. But I also think that there are canon events of those scenes that are the outcome of what he does. So saying Cloud's love can waver doesn't really prove anything, because it's true. But that doesn't mean there isn't a canon version of events.
There's only one person that Cloud fell in love with as a child:
SOURCE 10th AU page 12: "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."
---------
SOURCE Crisis Core Ultimania: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her.
There is only one girl that Cloud has been said to share romantic feelings with 7 times (quotes have been posted many times, I won't bother)
one girl he chose to live with in a different way than before
(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:
“It all starts now. A new…”
Cloud looked for the right words.
“A new life.”
“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”
“That’s right…”
“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”
“Why?”
“Because I’ve always failed everything.”
“That’s not funny.”
“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)
one girl he is meant to live with, that he belongs with,
SOURCE: 10th AU:
Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live.
----------------
SOURCE: Nojima on AC:
Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged.
Even if it's just locations, one must ask the question, "Why was it so important that they'd be together in the same location?"
One girl who he has a family with....
(Multiple Quotes from the 10th AU stating that the family is Cloud and Tifa's)
one girl he said he had feelings for in the Lifestream Event, a non optional scene
SOURCE Ultimania Omega page 25: Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.
By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.
SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.
SOURCE: 10th AU: "they [Cloud and Tifa] became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding
and so on....
And I’ve stated why I think your reasoning is skewed, and I have yet to see a quote that conclusively proves that your theory is correct. I won’t say that your theory isn’t possible because I think both your theory and my theory about Cloud’s love interest are possible.
Idk what theory this was so Imma leave it at that.
I'm leaving the koibito stuff to Zealkin since I'm so SICK of debating that damn word.
Where does it say that Cloud wants Tifa in a different way than before? Or is that just your opinion?
I posted the quote above. If Cloud didn't WANT Tifa in a different way, he'd have said so. He's a big boy, he can stand up for himself.
1. Blushing around Tifa is no proof that he loves her. After all, blushing can be due to embarrassment.
So he's embarrassed that he has Tifa in a way that's different than before?
2. Cloud supports Aerith, too, in more than one scene. Some examples:
Yes he does. I don't disagree with this... moving on...
3. As for Cloud knowing when Tifa’s not being herself, Sephiroth could tell the same thing:
Tifa "Cloud... Don't listen to him..." "Close your ears! Close your eyes!" Cloud "What's wrong, Tifa? I'm not affected by it." "...I wasn't paying attention to him." Tifa "All that talk of Hojo constructing you is a lie." "Don't we have our memories together?" "Being kids together, starlit nights..." (Sephiroth cocks his head toward her.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... Tifa..." "Why are you so worried and scared by those words?" "Hmm... Shall I show everyone here what's in your heart?" (She quickly turns away, without a word.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... You look like you're not feeling well." (He disappears. Cloud turns to Tifa) Cloud "...Tifa? Is Sephiroth right?"
Does that mean Sephiroth’s in love with Tifa?
Idk what's going on here or what the original argument was so leaving this to Zealkin.
4. 4. Raising a family together does not indicate in and of itself that Cloud and Tifa are in love. Let’s say that Barret and Tifa were living in the Seventh Heaven with Denzel and Marlene. Would you think that Barret and Tifa are in love just because they’re bringing up Denzel and Marlene? Would you think Barret and Tifa were in love if they started calling that group a family?
Yes, honest to Dr. Doofenshmirtz I would. If Cloud was NOT there, living on his own somewhere, and it was JUST Barret and Tifa, and Barret brought Denzel home and said, "I felt Aerith or whoever lead Denzel to our home" and was blushing around her and she was asking him "Do you love me" and Nojima said they belonged together and they had 7 quotes saying they had romantic feelings for one another and stuff. Yes Yes i WOULD think they were in love.
I’ve heard of an older brother and sister being left in charge of the kids after their parents died. Does that mean the brother and sister are in love? Would it mean the brother and sister are in love if they started calling that group a family?
No, no I wouldn't. The brother and sister (I'm assuming) don't blush around each other, they don't have 7 quotes of romantic feelings for one another, Nojima didn't say they belonged together of speak of them in the context of love marriage and family... they don't have each other in a different way... etc etc...
Tifa specifically said that the family was made up of friends. She has also stated that their family is not a “real” family, and has mentioned more than once that she hoped they would become a “real” family. Marlene invited Cloud into the family – the family wasn’t Cloud’s idea. In fact, the family seemed to exist before Marlene invited Cloud into it:
The family of friends was AVALANCHE, NOT the same family with Marlene, Denzel and Cloud. She speaks about the friend's "sins". What are Marlene and Denzel's sins if they are the family of friends she speaks of?
Marlene says that she’ll put Cloud in our family, so the family already exists when she puts him into it. I’m not sure if Marlene thinks the family is just herself and Barret, or if Marlene thinks the family is herself, Tifa, and Barret - but Cloud isn’t part of the family until Marlene invites him into it.
So why are we listening to only Marlene and not Square when they say the family does not include Barret or when they say the family is Cloud and Tifa's? Marlene was just being cute here. Hell I dunno, maybe she was drawing a picture at the time. But you can't just take Marlene's comment, and ignore every other piece of evidence that says the family is Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel.
10th AU said:
-When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. [Barrett is right there and is not mentioned]
-------
-Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.
-------
-With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward
-------
-The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they [Cloud and Tifa]were forming in Edge.
-------
-Cloud and Tifa's new family [member]
Although he's [Denzel] only been living there for a short while, he adores Cloud and Tifa like parents and his bonds with them are strong.
-------
-After the meteor disaster, she's [Marlene] living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.
If you want to look at just what Marlene says, what about Denzel? He obviously doesn't think about Barret as part of the family. He didn't know who he was in AC/C. When he speaks about the people who help him in CoD (Two years after AC/C) he doesn't mention Barret. I would think he would if he thought of Barret as family. (I wanted to say this to you on CxA but... I didn't really feel like posting it there)
I put this picture to point out that the “original” family photo of Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel has been replaced by a “new” family photo with all of Avalanche with Aerith’s flowers sitting in front. To me, that says that all of Avalanche – including Aerith - is considered part of the family now.
I think it means Cloud loves his friends, but I don't really want to talk about opinions and such.
Furthermore, Aerith says in MotP that she and Cloud would be seen as family or lovers after she confesses her love to him. (Note: SE already said that Aerith confessed her love to Cloud during the Clerith date scene, but I guess they wrote it that way for people who didn’t get the Clerith date scene. Sorta like the only time they say that Cloud and Tifa have mutual feelings of love is in the HA HW scene.) At any rate, notice that Aerith says family OR lovers – she doesn’t seem to think the two necessarily go together.
... okay look I don't disagree that family and romance don't always go together, but again, 7 out of 8 quotes... blah blah blah
I think the rest of this has already been talked about so I'll leave it.
4) Not only pictures of the HA version are used. The pic on the FTOIL page is from both versions.
Oh so they confess love in either version, LTD solved
I’ve also seen a pic from another source of Barret standing on the deck of the HW that was said to be used in a story summary (not sure which one). IIRC, I believe that pic of Barret is used in both versions.
You're going to have to find me this scan of them using Barret standing on the deck to represent the highwind scene
SE could just as easily have put the word “optional” instead of page 232 – same difference.
But they didn't
okay here's a serious question.
On the page with the date scene it says (something like), "Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud."
Speaking just of the FTOIL page and not the pages they link to, why didn't they say THAT on the FTOIL page under the date? why did they go with "this ends one of 4 ways."? If they wanted to emphasize Cloud and Aerith, why only show a picture but not mention it in text?
The text beneath the HW scene just says flat out "C and T share feelings." so why not do this for the date scene as well?
Let's break it down here. I'm not sure how I'll do this without tables but I'll try.
___________________________HW Scene | Date Scene
Has a page number up in the
corner that speaks of a deviation.____[X]_______[X]
Has a page number up in the
corner that goes into more details____[X]_______[X]
Mentions optionality on the
FTOIL page______________________[O]_______[X]
Mentions girl by name
on the FTOIL page________________[X]_______[O]
Yeah it's a stupid graphic but it took me a while so imma leave it in
Also please, please
please PLEASE do not answer these questions with questions
(IE "Why show them both if Cloti is canon?" and so on, because I have and several others have answered that already. PLEASE just answer them with your opinion on why they'd do this and not with questions. Thank you.)
The Deviations are explaining the options. The options are Low Affection and High Affection. Cloud does not love Tifa romantically in both versions. Therefore his romantic feelings for her are completely optional.
He also doesn't love Aerith in either version (or doesn't have to)
1) The FTOIL page has two pictures for FFVII that show Cloud with two different women.
2) Both pictures on the FTOIL page are listed as optional scenes by having the Deviations pages listed.
3) Cloud’s the only hero on the FTOIL page shown with two females.
4) Cloud’s pictures are the only pictures on the FTOIL page listed as having deviations.
5) There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page if Cloti is being declared canon.
6) The only reason for the Clerith date scene to be pictured on the FTOIL page is because the title “Love Between Heroes” pertains to the picture.
7) SE has never officially confirmed that Cloti is canon.
8) SE has never confirmed that the HA HW scene is canon.
9) Nothing happens anywhere in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm that the HA HW scene happened instead of the LA version.
10) Nothing happens anywhere in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.
1-6 see above and please answer those questions. BTW it's not the "Clerith date" it's "The date"
7-10
I think this has been covered.
Actually, he says right smack dab in the middle of the quote that the ending of KH can answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII:
But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140
And how exactly does Cloud look depressed at the end?
Doesn’t look depressed to me, especially in comparison to how he looks earlier in the game.
okay...
Nomura says that FFVII AC profoundly grasps the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship so:
Actually, it is described that way on the Deviations page when it describes the scene as apathetic. Apathy = indifference. They are both indifferent to having a romantic relationship with each other.
See above and such.
It’s only your opinion that a conversation like that would take more than a few seconds to sort out. It can easily be sorted out in a few seconds, especially if both people feel the same way.
Cloud: Just to be clear, I don’t want to be anything more than friends with you, Tifa.
Tifa: That’s fine, Cloud. I feel the same way.
All sorted out, and it only took a few seconds. It’s called “mutual feelings”.
Imma quote JayM here:
in order to make this argument you have to prove:
1. that the conversation went beyond what we saw
2. that the theorized extended dialogue was a confirmation of friendship
and if you want to really make this a point FOR Clerith
3. that the reason Cloud would only want to be friends is because he is in love with Aeris, to the exclusion of being in love with Tifa.
The thing is, this did NOT happen in the game. I don't understand why a conversation that didn't happen in the game, that you wrote yourself, keeps getting brought up as evidence. Those quotes are talking about what we see in the game. There's differences between the talk that we see between Cloud and Tifa in both versions. You have a script of both on your site, they're different from one another. When Square says, "The conversation is different." they mean the conversation that took place within the game.
Note: I’m really sorry this doesn’t finish your last PM, but this is all I have done after working on it for three nights. I’d like to get something posted!
Aww it's done? I was just getting into it
EDIT
added examples of the engraved thing being non romantic.
EDIT II
Added some more quotes
EDIT III
Added something Ryu noted
