The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Strangelove]

You're so pretty I can easily make you famous, doll.

I don't know if I want the kind of fame you're selling there, fella.

Yeah, that's going to be a big part of it. The Japanese text -- as well as scans where possible (and I've surprised myself at just how many scans or other Japanese sources I've been able to accumulate) -- will be provided for everything, and explanations will be provided for anything particularly "sensitive."

Readers will, of course, be encouraged to take the Japanese text elsewhere to confirm it for themselves as well.

三人寄れば文殊の知恵ってことだね。

その三人がクラティ派でない限りだけど…　

 

[Anastar]

[FONT=&quot]Disclaimer:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti. [/FONT]
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Zealkin

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Well yes. You have to have evidence to back up what you say, and no Square has never said “so and so is canon” because I doubt they even care, and that word is a fanon word to use anyway.

So you admit that SE has never said that any couple is canon, yet you keep insisting that Cloti is canon. How can Cloti be canon when SE hasn't said that any couple is canon? SE has to show that Cloud and Tifa love one another non-optionally before you can claim that Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple of FFVII. So far, SE has not done that - except in your opinion.

The HA scene has been stated to happen several times, the LA scene is described as being a situation that can happen but is overshadowed by the Ha scene which is one of the most important scenes in the game and has dozens of quotes alluding to it.

Actually, the dozens of quotes alluding to the HW scene do not specify the HA version of the scene, nor has the HA version been stated to happen several times.

ALL of the quotes referring to the HW scene say only that feelings were exchanged with no specification about WHAT feelings were exchanged. The ONLY time specific feelings are suggested is when which version is specified. Some examples:
[FONT=&quot]"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15, Cloud's profile

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27, Tifa's profile

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198, story summary[/FONT]

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." ~Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33, Tifa's profile

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118, and pg. 120 in the Revised Edition, story summary

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." ~FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; FFVII's story summary[FONT=&quot]

These quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa reveal feelings under the HW. None of the quotes specify which version of the HW scene. None of the quotes specify what feelings are shared under the HW.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore, all of the quotes above say that feelings are expressed in the LA version because none of the quotes specify which version of the HW scene is being referenced. Since none of the quotes specify a version, then all quotes are saying that feelings are conveyed in both the HA and LA versions of the HW scene.[/FONT]
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I talked about that quote in my last post, that’s why it’s a little difficult to do this in parts we both seem to just repeat ourselves and can’t get our points across as easily. But again I will say this again:
the quote uses the "This was due to the fact" to describe why Tifa has them, and the complicated feelings are not described so you don’t even know if they’re jealousy or not.

The quote using “this was due to the fact” is not saying that Cloud’s guilt is the reason why Tifa has complicated feelings. If you look at the whole passage, it’s stated in the main heading that Tifa’s complicated feelings are due to Aerith:

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.
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Furthermore, the sentence which starts with [/FONT]“This was due to the fact” is not saying that Cloud’s guilt is the reason why Tifa has complicated feelings. I asked a friend about this, who knows much more about stuff like sentence structure and grammar than me. She explained it this way:

This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him.

[FONT=&quot]The part about Cloud succumbing to his guilt is what is called a dependent clause, and the independent clause (or the complete thought, so to speak) is the part with Denzel. To be exact, it's what is called a "parenthetical element/phrase" (although there are other names for it, mainly the term "non-restrictive modifier") and, to quote wikipedia, "Commas are often used to enclose parenthetical words and phrases within a sentence (i.e., information that is not essential to the meaning of the sentence). Such phrases are both preceded and followed by a comma, unless that would result in a doubling of punctuation marks, or the parenthetical is at the start or end of the sentence." If they don't like wikipedia, you can also direct them to the Purdue University OWL (Online Writing Lab) where it's stated that:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Use a pair of commas in the middle of a sentence to set off clauses, phrases, and words that are not essential to the meaning of the sentence. Use one comma before to indicate the beginning of the pause and one at the end to indicate the end of the pause.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Do not use commas to set off essential elements of the sentence, such as clauses beginning with that (relative clauses). That clauses after nouns are always essential. That clauses following a verb expressing mental action are always essential.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]~above explanation by Materia Thief at the CloudxAerith Forums[/FONT]

As Materia Thief explained above, the sentence is actually saying that Tifa’s complicated feelings are due to Cloud thinking that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and Cloud taking care of Denzel.

We don’t know what the complex feelings are, and being complex they probably aren’t just one thing, that doesn’t have to automatically equate to jealousy, and I’ve explained the quotes we’re referencing several times above.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]The official source does say something, but it’s not saying what you are saying, you’re jumping from complex feelings to jealousy, with no bridge connecting the two.

[FONT=&quot]But there is a bridge connecting the two - it's stated that the two women are love rivals. A rival is someone who attempts to equal or surpass another:

rival, n.
[/FONT]1. [FONT=&quot]One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor. [/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]One that equals or almost equals another in a particular respect: She is his rival in sarcasm. [/FONT]
3. [FONT=&quot]Obsolete[/FONT][FONT=&quot] A companion or an associate in a particular duty.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Source: http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=rival

Tifa's profile says that Tifa carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, and Aerith is said to be a love rival. As a love rival, Aerith was attempting to equal or surpass Tifa as a love interest to Cloud. Tifa's profile goes on to say in the second paragraph that this is due to the fact that Cloud thought that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and that Cloud is visiting Aerith's church. That sure sounds like jealousy to me.

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In the first place, Aerith is able to continue a relationship after she is deceased. AC/ACC showed that Aerith and Cloud are able to talk with one another, see one another, and touch one another. Nomura said this is possible because Aerith lives on inside of Cloud. That means that Aerith is always and will always be with Cloud. So yes, their relationship can continue.

Once again you’re taking things literally when the writing is approached figuratively. Living on inside of someone does not mean you actually live inside of them(even if you’re a cetra) When my grandmother died a little of her lived on inside of me, I see things that she might have done or enjoyed, or said to me at certain moments; this is what happens to Cloud, and a few others, intensified because Aerith is an ancient, she does not literally live inside of him though.

How do you know that we’re supposed to take what SE says here on a figurative rather than a literal basis? I don’t remember SE saying anything about whether to interpret this passage either way.

Your grandmother was not a Cetra, and in fact, Cetra’s exist only in the world of the FFVII Compilation. Therefore, we cannot decide what Aerith’s Cetra spirit in the FFVII Compilation is able to do on the basis of what spirits in real life are able to do.

You say that Aerith does not literally live on inside of Cloud, but Nomura says in Distance that Aerith does live inside of Cloud. In the world of FFVII, it may indeed be possible, since Cloud has more Mako energy (Lifestream) inside of him than the “normal” human due to being submerged in the Lifestream for a lengthy period of time and also because Cloud was infused with Mako energy during the experimentation by Hojo. [FONT=&quot]

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Plus it says that she goes back to where she belongs to the lifestream at the end of Advent Children.

Spirits cannot exist outside of the Lifestream. In fact, Aerith never left the Lifestream during AC/ACC.

But let’s say that it does mean Aerith returned to the Lifestream in the manner you take it to mean. Aerith was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, was she not? If she was in the Lifestream before AC/ACC, and she left the Lifestream during AC/ACC, that means Aerith is able to leave the Lifestream. So it doesn’t matter if she “returned” – AC/ACC shows that Aerith can leave the Lifestream any time she wants.
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Yuna does not continue a relationship with dead tidus, she looks for hints of him being alive so she can continue a relationship with him, well alive..

But Yuna continued loving Tidus despite the lack of an actual relationship, didn’t she? That just goes to show that an actual relationship isn’t necessary in order for someone to continue loving someone else after that person has died.

Vincent doesn’t continue a relationship with Lucrezia he pines after her (slightly alive/dead) crystal form, and a relationship is a two way street, she has no direct interaction with Vincent, it’s only his memories that haunt him.

I consider talking with Lucrecia to be continuing their relationship. However, even if you only see it as Lucrecia’s memories haunting Vincent, the fact remains that he continues to love her even though she is separated from him. Nomura even said something to that effect about Kingdom Hearts:

Question: Mr. Nomura, what did you most want to portray in [Kingdom Heart's] story?
Nomura: For the story, simply put, "connections"... I wanted to portray the idea that people are not physically connected. Well, I think that is already thoroughly incorporated in the story though. Even apart, things which are connected are still connected. ~Kingdom Heats Ultimania

That clearly implies that loved ones are not separated by death. Nomura says something very similar in the Distance interview:

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview
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Nomura makes it clear that he's not just talking about Cloud's memories of Aerith. He says that Aerith's consciousness actually lives on inside of Cloud - and in the world of FFVII, that's totally possible.

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Ilfana does not have any relationship with Aerith after she died, like I said a relationship is a two way street, praying for Aerith and missing her is not having a relationship with her, it’s remembering what one once had, aka her and her life.

And how do you know that Aerith wasn’t able to speak with Ifalna after Ifalna died? Aerith says that Ifalna spoke to her, but Aerith doesn’t specify whether or not she speaks back to Ifalna. The Ancients in the Temple of Ancients are able to speak with Aerith even though they are dead, and Aerith is able to speak back to them. Since Cloud is able to speak with Aerith during AC/ACC, then we know it’s possible for spirits to speak with the living in that universe. The warrior Seto cries when RedXIII visits him with Bugenhagen, even though he’s dead. So once again, we see the dead hearing and interacting with the living in the universe of FFVII. Vincent speaking with a “dead” Lucrecia in the Crystal Caverns during FFVII shows the dead interacting with the living in that universe. [Dead] Sephiroth speaking with Cloud and Avalanche during FFVII and AC/ACC again shows a dead person speaking with the living, so we know it’s possible in that universe.
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And Sephiroth was able to actually manifest himself(though not fully) and still interact with Cloud and co, so it is still him in a sense.

And how is that any different from Aerith manifesting in AC/ACC? Aerith’s spirit was able to hold Cloud’s hand and boost him up during the hand reach scene, so Aerith had manifested to the extent that she is able to touch him and he is able to touch her. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm in the back to back scene, so she had once again manifested to the extent that she is able to interact with him on a physical level.[FONT=&quot]

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As for the quote about the deepening love triangle in Aerith's FFVII profile, that paragraph is obviously talking about before Aerith dies, since it talks about how she meets Cloud and how she joins Avalanche. So it's talking about the love triangle deepening while Aerith is alive.

... she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII Game Manual

yeah notice that there’s nothing talking about after that though, what makes you think it continues? The Tifa quote doesn't….

What makes you think it doesn’t continue? Aerith dying isn’t proof enough alone, since I’ve shown that spirits are able to interact with living people in the universe of FFVII. There are also several examples of living people who continue to love people who have died, in the universe of FFVII, such as Dyne and Eleanor; Barret and Myrna; and Vincent and Lucrecia.

As for where you said “the Tifa quote doesn’t”… which “Tifa quote” are you talking about? Because it seems clear to me that the love triangle HAS continued with the quote from Tifa’s profile:

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania
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[/FONT]None of the parts I highlighted are in past tense – in fact, they are all in present tense. So how do you know the love triangle hasn’t continued?

Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart (lover, boyfriend). ~Case of Lifestream White

I discussed this in my last post why this isn’t mutual.

As I recall, you said it’s because the translation shows a one-sided relationship. Rygdea’s post

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

shows that koibito indicates a mutual relationship. The quote from CoLWhite says that Cloud is Aerith’s koibito, which means that Cloud and Aerith share that relationship. Koibito can also be translated as “boyfriend”, so if Cloud is Aerith’s boyfriend, then I’d say it’s a mutual relationship.[FONT=&quot]

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Kitase: ... And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Okay but what happens after that is? The wavering is talking about the beginning of the game.

Where does the quote say that Cloud is wavering only at the beginning of the game?

, it doesn’t hold for the entire game, as Cloud cannot waver between relationships if one part of the triangle is killed off

Untrue in the universe of FFVII.
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It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

So memories of a woman that Cloud cared for, saw dying before his eyes, and almost being the one that kills her are forever engraved in his heart..mm sounds likely, just like Tifa’s promise. This doesn’t say anything about Cloud loving Aerith.

Okay, but that’s merely your interpretation. If you don’t think Aerith being engraved in Cloud’s heart means that Cloud loves Aerith, then how can you think that Cloud sharing feelings with Tifa under the HW means that he loves Tifa?

Furthermore, being “engraved in his heart” is nothing like the Promise being “etched in his memory.” Something in your memory is something that you remember, like a definition or someone’s name or an email address. Something in your heart is something that you have an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to you.[FONT=&quot]

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Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. ~Tifa's profile, 10th AU

Okay this is talking about Tifa and Aerith we know this already, what about Cloud and Aerith?

If Aerith is Tifa’s love rival, then they are in a love triangle with Cloud. If Cloud is in a love triangle with Tifa and Aerith, then his feelings are wavering between both girls. Nowhere does it say that the Love Triangle ends when Aerith dies. In fact, the date mechanism influences which version of the HW scene you get, so the date mechanism continues influencing the events in Disk Two, which shows that the Love Triangle is still at work at that time.[FONT=&quot]

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When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Quex gave me a translation of the page and found nothing of the sort, but could you find the page for me to make sure?

All I know is that the translation was given to us. People have asked for a scan of the page from the person who translated it, but the scan hasn’t been provided to us yet.[FONT=&quot]

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Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

Okay like I said above she was important to Cloud and she has no reason not to be for the reasons I stated above, juts like the promise, Aerith was important to Cloud.

But it’s not just like the Promise, since it’s said in Cloud’s profile that the Promise is etched in his memory, which implies something that he remembers like someone’s name or a definition or an email address. Being engraved in his heart is something that he has an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to him.[FONT=&quot]
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Aerith's picture with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a heading saying that Love Develops Between the Heroes. If it's valid for Cloti, then it's valid for Clerith.

See I don't follow this, You need a quote that shows that love between the two heroines is optional and Cloud himself does not have any static feelings, game mechanics Cloud=/= static Cloud.

A picture of the Clerith date labeled as optional and a picture of the HW scene labeled as optional under a title of “Love Between Heroes” on the FTOIL page IS a quote which shows that love between the two heroines is optional. That’s what the FTOIL page is saying. So is the quote from Kitase about the hero wavering between the two heroines. Kitase never says that Cloud only wavers between the two heroines at the beginning of the game. Another thing reinforcing the idea of love being optional are the statements in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO about there being two versions of the HW scene, one being low affection and one being high affection. The fact that there is a high affection and a low affection version in itself says that Cloud loving Tifa is optional, especially when there is nothing in the Compilation after the HW scene which conclusively shows that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.

SE has never stated that the High Affection version of the HW scene is canon OR default. This is merely an opinion you and other Cloti’s have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the HA version is canon (except in your opinion). Same with your assertion that Cloti is canon. SE has never stated that Cloti is canon, and there is absolutely nothing which happens after the HW scene in the Compilation which conclusively proves your assertion that Cloud loves Tifa romantically on a non-optional basis. There is also no statement in the Ultimania’s which can only mean that Cloud loves Tifa romantically on a non-optional basis after the HW scene.

Yet, you want me to provide conclusive evidence that love is optional between the two heroines. I have provided evidence that’s every bit as valid as the evidence you’ve provided. I have also provided evidence that Cloud is able to love Aerith on an optional basis that’s every bit as good as the evidence you’ve provided. Just because you don’t agree with my evidence doesn’t prove that you’re right, and just because I don’t agree with your evidence doesn’t prove that I’m right.

And now once again, you’re asking me for evidence that Cloud’s feelings are optional instead of static during the game. Why do I need a quote that proves Cloud’s feelings are optional during the game when there’s no quote proving that Cloud’s feelings are static during the game?

I’ve stated on my first part of my answer, why this reasoning is skewed and I have yet to see a quote that has proven this theory correct or possible.

And I’ve stated why I think your reasoning is skewed, and I have yet to see a quote that conclusively proves that your theory is correct. I won’t say that your theory isn’t possible because I think both your theory and my theory about Cloud’s love interest are possible.
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So it’s my opinion that if Cloud likes Tifa, depending on her should obviously lower his affection for her?

Makes plenty of sense to me. Since Cloud’s actions toward Tifa determine the amount of affection she has towards Cloud, then Cloud’s actions represent how he feels about Tifa.

It doesn’t make sense if he likes her wouldn’t this make both of them happy?!

Who says he doesn’t like her?[FONT=&quot]

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I have also told you why the koibito quote was onesided, if you think it’s my opinion then prove me wrong, find a translator that can explain it to me step by step as I have done for you.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Can you explain why? If it has to do with opinion that’s up to you, but why does my logic not match up to the narrative? argue against my point and counter them if you think they do not. I may like pairings, but I know when a ship is beat or so to speak, tell me why I’m wrong, meet me half way please.

I believe I already explained why when I referred tp Rygdea’s post:

[FONT=&quot]http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87[/FONT]
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[/FONT]I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word [koibito] and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection).[FONT=&quot] ~Rygdea’s post
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[FONT=&quot]Rygdea says that koibito indicates a mutual, not one-sided, romantic relationship. Therefore, the usage of koibito in CoLWhite would indicate a mutual romantic relationship between Aerith and Cloud.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And may I remind you that you provided me with the link to Rygdea’s post, so it was you who selected it as a reliable source.[/FONT]
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Those quotes don’t speak anything about Clouds feelings themselves, it’s all based on Aerith and how Cloud wavers in the beginning of the game, but how can he waver if Aerith is no longer alive?

Because love beyond death is possible in the universe of FFVII. I already discussed that topic in more detail above.

Cloud outside of the affection and the game mechanics does want Tifa in a different way than before, he blushes around her, supports her, knows when she’s not being herself and raises a family together, these kinds of actions do not indicate that he was in love with another girl.

Where does it say that Cloud wants Tifa in a different way than before? Or is that just your opinion?

1. Blushing around Tifa is no proof that he loves her. After all, blushing can be due to embarrassment.

2. Cloud supports Aerith, too, in more than one scene. Some examples:

[Scene 68 – in front of the Cosmo Candle]
Aerith "I learned a lot. The elders taught me many things."
Aerith "About the Cetra... And the Promised Land..."
Aerith "I'm... alone... I'm all alone now..."
Cloud "But I'm... we're here for you, right?"
Aerith "I know. I know, but... I am the only... Cetra."
Cloud "Does that mean we can't help?"
[Scene 30 – rescuing Aerith from Hojo’s lab) (Cloud turns to Hojo.)
Cloud "What do you think you're doin'?"
……
Cloud "Barret! Can't you do anything?"
(Barret aims his gun at the tube.)
Cloud "Now's our chance to get Aerith!"
(Cloud runs into the tube and helps Aerith up from the floor.)
Aerith "Thanks, Cloud."

[Scene 32 – in the Shinra jail]
Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"
Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"
Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right."
Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"

[Scene 52 – Boat ride to Costa del Sol] This one’s optional, but so is the HW scene:
A soldier "Umm.... It's me, Aerith." Aerith "Hey, Cloud. Did you see the Airship at Junon?" Cloud "...I heard it was big, but I didn't expect it to be THAT big." Aerith "That was REALLY something." "Hey, do you think I could get on it?" <CHOICE> I'll take you someday I dunno... *** Cloud I'll take you someday Cloud "...keep hoping." Aerith "Wow! I'm really looking forward to it!" "Let's ride the Airship together, OK? Promise, promise me!"

[Scene 86 – Aerith leaves for the Forgotten City]

Cloud tries to follow Aerith in his dream when she leaves for the Forgotten City. Cloud starts running after her before Sephiroth says he’s going to stop Aerith. After Cloud wakes up, he goes to the Forgotten City with the rest of the team.

[Scene 89 – after Avalanche arrives in the Forgotten City]
(They all rest for the night. The scene shifts to later that night. Cloud is awake, and standing away from the others. He looks up.) Cloud "I feel it..." (The others come in. Cloud must have woken them up.) Cid "Do you know what TIME it is!?" (Cloud turns to them.) Cloud "Aerith is here. ...and so is Sephiroth." Cid "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?" Tifa "But how can you tell?" Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." Cid "Shit, Cloud, we can't be sittin' around on our asses." Cloud "...right. Let's hurry and find Aerith."
[Scene 129 – Avalanche visits the Forgotten City with Bugenhagen]
Cloud "Aerith has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future..."
Cloud "I'm sorry... Aerith. I should have figured this out sooner."
Cloud "...You left us without saying a word... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think..."
Cloud "That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aerith... I understand now."
Cloud "Aerith... I'll do the rest."
Cloud "Thank you... Aerith."

3. As for Cloud knowing when Tifa’s not being herself, Sephiroth could tell the same thing:

Tifa "Cloud... Don't listen to him..." "Close your ears! Close your eyes!" Cloud "What's wrong, Tifa? I'm not affected by it." "...I wasn't paying attention to him." Tifa "All that talk of Hojo constructing you is a lie." "Don't we have our memories together?" "Being kids together, starlit nights..." (Sephiroth cocks his head toward her.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... Tifa..." "Why are you so worried and scared by those words?" "Hmm... Shall I show everyone here what's in your heart?" (She quickly turns away, without a word.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... You look like you're not feeling well." (He disappears. Cloud turns to Tifa) Cloud "...Tifa? Is Sephiroth right?"
Does that mean Sephiroth’s in love with Tifa?

4. Raising a family together does not indicate in and of itself that Cloud and Tifa are in love. Let’s say that Barret and Tifa were living in the Seventh Heaven with Denzel and Marlene. Would you think that Barret and Tifa are in love just because they’re bringing up Denzel and Marlene? Would you think Barret and Tifa were in love if they started calling that group a family? I’ve heard of an older brother and sister being left in charge of the kids after their parents died. Does that mean the brother and sister are in love? Would it mean the brother and sister are in love if they started calling that group a family?

Tifa specifically said that the family was made up of friends. She has also stated that their family is not a “real” family, and has mentioned more than once that she hoped they would become a “real” family. Marlene invited Cloud into the family – the family wasn’t Cloud’s idea. In fact, the family seemed to exist before Marlene invited Cloud into it:

Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.
“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)

Marlene says that she’ll put Cloud in our family, so the family already exists when she puts him into it. I’m not sure if Marlene thinks the family is just herself and Barret, or if Marlene thinks the family is herself, Tifa, and Barret - but Cloud isn’t part of the family until Marlene invites him into it.

Then you have to look at the final family picture on Cloud’s desk in the movie. The photo makes it clear that the family is all of Avalanche, including Aerith since the flowers which represent her (as stated by Nomura) are sitting in front of the photo:

I put this picture to point out that the “original” family photo of Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel has been replaced by a “new” family photo with all of Avalanche with Aerith’s flowers sitting in front. To me, that says that all of Avalanche – including Aerith - is considered part of the family now.

Furthermore, Aerith says in MotP that she and Cloud would be seen as family or lovers after she confesses her love to him. (Note: SE already said that Aerith confessed her love to Cloud during the Clerith date scene, but I guess they wrote it that way for people who didn’t get the Clerith date scene. Sorta like the only time they say that Cloud and Tifa have mutual feelings of love is in the HA HW scene.) At any rate, notice that Aerith says family OR lovers – she doesn’t seem to think the two necessarily go together.

Cloud loves Tifa regardless of what what individual player ends up with in the game, the HA scene happens regardless of what other players have gotten in their playthrough’s.

That’s only your opinion. Your opinion has not been validated by SE.

As I understand your argument for this, you think the HA scene happens regardless of what version other players get in the game because 1) you think the HA version is used in story summaries, 2) you think only the HA version is given in scripts, and 3) you say the HA HW scene is listed as an important scene in the game, and 4) you think that only pictures of the HA version are used.

First of all, not only the HA version is used in story summaries. Actually, both the LA and HA versions are used in story summaries:

“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198, story summary

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." ~FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII's story summary
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]None of those story summaries is about the HA version only. In order for the HA version to be specified, it would have to say that they confirm feelings of love. What feelings they confirm are not specified, so it could mean they confirm feelings of friendship or trust or support or something other than love. Therefore, those summaries refer to both the HA and the LA versions of the scene.

Second, not only the HA version is used in scripts. A script of the LA version is included in the FFVII Ultimania Omega.

Third, is it only the HA HW version listed as an important scene? I don’t know the exact wording of what it says, but I would suspect it’s like what’s said in the story summaries. If it’s like what’s in story summaries, then it’s referring to both versions, not just the HA version. Even if it is the HA version, I don’t see how that makes the HA version canon.

4) Not only pictures of the HA version are used. The pic on the FTOIL page is from both versions. I’ve also seen a pic from another source of Barret standing on the deck of the HW that was said to be used in a story summary (not sure which one). IIRC, I believe that pic of Barret is used in both versions.

That’s not saying you can continue a relationship with someone dead, and no where does it even imply that.

You can’t in real life, but it’s totally possible in the world of FFVII.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

You continue to use optional over and over, yet I fail to see the actual WORD optional on those pages. Where does it say the Higwwind scene is optional?

At the top of the picture, where it says page 232. If you turn to page 232, it says:

Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

SE could just as easily have put the word “optional” instead of page 232 – same difference.

Where does it say that the HA highwind scene is optional?

On page 232 of the 20th AU, and in the FFVII Ultimania Omega where it talks about Deviations:

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Both paragraphs state that the HW scene diverges into two conditions according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. The High Affection and Low Affection versions are both mentioned. That means the scene is optional depending on Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud.

It talks about deviations, what CAN happen in certain circumstances

The Deviations are explaining the options. The options are Low Affection and High Affection. Cloud does not love Tifa romantically in both versions. Therefore his romantic feelings for her are completely optional.

what HAS happened is unarguably the scene that is considered one of the most important.

I find it very arguable for several reasons:

1) The FTOIL page has two pictures for FFVII that show Cloud with two different women.
2) Both pictures on the FTOIL page are listed as optional scenes by having the Deviations pages listed.
[FONT=&quot]3) [/FONT]Cloud’s the only hero on the FTOIL page shown with two females.
[FONT=&quot]4) [/FONT]Cloud’s pictures are the only pictures on the FTOIL page listed as having deviations.
[FONT=&quot]5) [/FONT]There is absolutely no reason for the Clerith date picture to be on the FTOIL page if Cloti is being declared canon.
[FONT=&quot]6) [/FONT]The only reason for the Clerith date scene to be pictured on the FTOIL page is because the title “Love Between Heroes” pertains to the picture.
[FONT=&quot]7) [/FONT]SE has never officially confirmed that Cloti is canon.
[FONT=&quot]8) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]SE has never confirmed that the HA HW scene is canon.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Nothing happens anywhere in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm that the HA HW scene happened instead of the LA version.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Nothing happens anywhere in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

The interviewers question answers yours, and you just said that it’s from kh’s story it’s talking about kingdom hearts. Plus Nomura has explicitly stated that ff7 and kh are separate stories:[FONT=&quot]
“There’s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories.” PlayStation Magazine (October 2002 issue, pg. 139)
[/FONT]He says right smack dab in the middle of the quote that there is no relation between the two stories, and what does the ending show exactly? Cloud looking depressed in a library with Aerith?

Actually, he says right smack dab in the middle of the quote that the ending of KH can answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII:

But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And how exactly does Cloud look depressed at the end?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Doesn’t look depressed to me, especially in comparison to how he looks earlier in the game.[/FONT]

It seems that you've forgotten that I was also saying that the LA version would be mutual feelings between Cloud and Tifa. If Cloud isn't wanting a relationship with Tifa, then Tifa's not wanting a relationship with Cloud, either. She's wanting him to change before she'll consider a relationship. That would mean she's not wanting to get into his pants at the moment - and therefore, I don't see it as suffering.

That’s not a feeling though, that’s actually talking ABOUT feelings that the characters are saying they’d rather not have, not only is this not in the LA’s script, it’s not even described as such in the deviations page.

Actually, it is described that way on the Deviations page when it describes the scene as apathetic. Apathy = indifference. They are both indifferent to having a romantic relationship with each other.

This argument does not hold up, it’s actually contradicting what’s been said the LA scene was: apathetic and short, that kind of conversation that you have described would take longer than a few seconds to sort out, and it’s never been said to happen.

It’s only your opinion that a conversation like that would take more than a few seconds to sort out. It can easily be sorted out in a few seconds, especially if both people feel the same way.

Cloud: Just to be clear, I don’t want to be anything more than friends with you, Tifa.
Tifa: That’s fine, Cloud. I feel the same way.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All sorted out, and it only took a few seconds. It’s called “mutual feelings”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Note: I’m really sorry this doesn’t finish your last PM, but this is all I have done after working on it for three nights. I’d like to get something posted!
[/FONT]

 

[Vanitas]

Uh, sorry... this is honestly not meant to be an attack. And I hope you don't see it as one. I'll admit I didn't even read a lot of your post. But I just have one little nitpick.

Cloud: Just to be clear, I don&#8217;t want to be anything more than friends with you, Tifa.
Tifa: That&#8217;s fine, Cloud. I feel the same way.


I got the LAHW on my first playthrough... but I definitely don't remember seeing that. o.o I guess I can see how you would think Cloud was being a little cold towards Tifa, but I'm just not seeing this brutal and outright rejection which you claim was there. Also, if you're arguing for Clerith being a *possible* interpretation, why are you even bringing up the highwind scene when it has nothing Clerithy about it? I'm just confused.

Also, can I ask why you're using KH fanart to prove a point? Don't you think a screenshot would've been more... you know... reliable?

Um, please don't get offended. I'm honestly just curious about it, and I'm not trying to attack your points. I can't debate worth a darn, so I'll just leave that to everyone else.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Why is fanart being used as an official representation of what happened?

just wondering.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why is fanart being used as an official representation of what happened?

just wondering.

Might as well ask her why she's using fanfiction as an official representation of the story. Or ask her why she hasn't responded to that AllExperts dude and the Japanese native who both said all the "communicated feelings" quotes are romantic in nature.

You ain't gettin' an answer, period.

 

[Master Bates]

Uhmmm... I admit not reading the entirety of your post, Miss Anastar, but something's not quite right here. Also, disregarding your fanfic and fanart proofs.

Furthermore, being &#8220;engraved in his heart&#8221; is nothing like the Promise being &#8220;etched in his memory.&#8221; Something in your memory is something that you remember, like a definition or someone&#8217;s name or an email address. Something in your heart is something that you have an emotional attachment to and that&#8217;s very meaningful to you.

Not quite sure anymore, but aren't the phrases ("engraved in his heart" and "etched in his memory") used here the same in the Japanese? Aren't these two idioms with the same meaning? Because that's what my memory told me.

I believe I already explained why when I referred tp Rygdea&#8217;s post:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

I've asked several people, Japanese people who I asked in Japanese and they answered in Japanese, about this word [koibito] and its usage and have never heard this 'one-sided' thing that gets tossed around. It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). ~Rygdea&#8217;s post

Rygdea says that koibito indicates a mutual, not one-sided, romantic relationship. Therefore, the usage of koibito in CoLWhite would indicate a mutual romantic relationship between Aerith and Cloud.

And may I remind you that you provided me with the link to Rygdea&#8217;s post, so it was you who selected it as a reliable source.

You are quotemining Hito again. *smh* Please read the entirety of his post in that link you provided. Here's what's next with that quote.

...And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, &quot;hey, Billy's my koibito&quot; while Billy might be all &quot;woah, back off woman&quot;. However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.

He was explaining the usage of koibito in Tifa's RF and noted afterwards the subjectivity of feelings. The 'koibito' in the RF is in different usage with the woman's LSW. The former belonging to the "omniscient PoV" while the latter limited to the woman's (a character) PoV.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Not quite sure anymore, but aren't the phrases ("engraved in his heart" and "etched in his memory") used here the same in the Japanese? Aren't these two idioms with the same meaning? Because that's what my memory told me.

Yes, they're the same. The verb for "etched"/"engraved" used in both cases was &#21051;, with Aerith said to be engraved in his heart/mind (&#24515 and the promise with Tifa engraved in his chest/heart (&#33016. It's an idiom for something one will never forget.

For reference purposes:

"&#24444;&#12398;&#24515;&#12395;&#29983;&#28079;&#21051;&#12414;&#12428;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12392;&#12394;&#12427;&#21476;&#20195;&#31278;&#12398;&#34880;&#12434;&#24341;&#12367;&#23569;&#22899;" (Aerith quote)
"&#33016;&#12395;&#12365;&#12374;&#12414;&#12428;&#12383;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12392;&#12398;&#32004;&#26463;" (Tifa quote)

You are quotemining Hito again.

Shouldn't even be a surprise anymore.

 

[Danseru-kun]

What Anastar failed to adress for now, and what we are expecting that she responds to:
1. Allexperts and a Japanese guy confirming that Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings are romantic
2. Proofs that Barret has a different place and the home is "Cloud and Tifa's"

And now once again, you’re asking me for evidence that Cloud’s feelings are optional instead of static during the game. Why do I need a quote that proves Cloud’s feelings are optional during the game when there’s no quote proving that Cloud’s feelings are static during the game?

And I’ve stated why I think your reasoning is skewed, and I have yet to see a quote that conclusively proves that your theory is correct.

You answered yourself.

And how is that any different from Aerith manifesting in AC/ACC? Aerith’s spirit was able to hold Cloud’s hand and boost him up during the hand reach scene, so Aerith had manifested to the extent that she is able to touch him and he is able to touch her. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm in the back to back scene, so she had once again manifested to the extent that she is able to interact with him on a physical level.

Then why didn't she interact with Cloud before AC? Why did she only interact with him during the time of a new threat? At the time where negative emotions are affecting him? Doesn't this imply that Aerith feels that Cloud doesn't need her when he's happy?

Furthermore, being “engraved in his heart” is nothing like the Promise being “etched in his memory.” Something in your memory is something that you remember, like a definition or someone’s name or an email address. Something in your heart is something that you have an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to you.

Etched in his memory because he has memory problems that almost wiped out his entire childhood, despite that he remembered the promise. Aerith's death is clear to his memory. And that was an act towards another person, Cloud was not the recipient. For example, my promise to my grandfather to serve the country is etched in my memory, but it was my granddad who is engraved in my heart because he died before he sees me fulfill that promise. Not romantic but until know I tear up whenever I remember him because I wasn't able to visit him in his last moments in the hospital.

And LOL that's so undramatic, "my classmate's email adress is etched in memory..."

If Cloud is in a love triangle with Tifa and Aerith, then his feelings are wavering between both girls.

Wait... are you saying that his feelings waver or that he loves Aerith? I'm really confused because you're using tha quote for "wavering feelings" then later speculated romantic disintirest between Cloud and Tifa. If you're stand is mutual romantic disintirest, then Cloud is NOT wavering but has already loved Aerith. This contradicts your premise:

Where does the quote say that Cloud is wavering only at the beginning of the game?

 

[Prince Roxas]

*ninjas into thread*

I think Anastar failed to point out that what she was using was being used as an example of how a conversation could end apathetically. I think it would of been better to use names like Steve and Linda.

Steve: Just to be clear, I don’t want to be anything more than friends with you, Linda.
Linda: That’s fine, Steve. I feel the same way.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

*ninjas out of thread*[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Danseru-kun]

But that conversation did not happen and we are shown the whole conversation in the LA version. The issue is the communicated feelings that were exchanged without using words that comes after the conversation. We argue that no communication of feelings happen in the LA version while romantic feelings were exchanged in the HA version.

However Anastar argues that feelings can be communicated in the LA version which she argues that mutual romantic disinterest. But so far, there's no official profile that supports this theory. I'm confused because she argues for the optionality of Cloud's feelings, but argues that AC and materials after that shows Clerith evidence, which is not player influenced.

 

[ClerithRaven]

Steeping in for a bit... WHOOOPS!

What Anastar failed to adress for now, and what we are expecting that she responds to:
1. Allexperts and a Japanese guy confirming that Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings are romantic
2. Proofs that Barret has a different place and the home is "Cloud and Tifa's"

They are not SE, as far as I remember.
And wasn't she saying that mutual feelings can also happen in the LA version. That one could have been not romantic.

You answered yourself.

She's awesome that way. She can get your answers for you.

Then why didn't she interact with Cloud before AC? Why did she only interact with him during the time of a new threat? At the time where negative emotions are affecting him? Doesn't this imply that Aerith feels that Cloud doesn't need her when he's happy?

I guess that would be explained by CoLW, since it happens before ACC. That's what others told me.
And if that were the case, all the more reason why I love Aerith. I mean, it's great that she would know not to intervene when she feels that Cloud is happy. But that does not automatically mean that she is not needed/welcomed in his life. The living can still turn to the dead for comfort.
I know that you know how much we value our dead, Danseru-kun.

Etched in his memory because he has memory problems that almost wiped out his entire childhood, despite that he remembered the promise. Aerith's death is clear to his memory. And that was an act towards another person, Cloud was not the recipient. For example, my promise to my grandfather to serve the country is etched in my memory, but it was my granddad who is engraved in my heart because he died before he sees me fulfill that promise. Not romantic but until know I tear up whenever I remember him because I wasn't able to visit him in his last moments in the hospital.

And LOL that's so undramatic, "my classmate's email adress is etched in memory..."

That's where we would differ I believe. It's all in the intent of the writer. I could use "my classmate's e-mail address is engraved in my heart" when I would like to make a romantic connection. Either way, engraved in my heart/etched in my memory can be used when regarding to just a thing or a person, the difference is the implication.
Figurative speech, go figure.

Wait... are you saying that his feelings waver or that he loves Aerith? I'm really confused because you're using tha quote for "wavering feelings" then later speculated romantic disintirest between Cloud and Tifa. If you're stand is mutual romantic disintirest, then Cloud is NOT wavering but has already loved Aerith. This contradicts your premise:

Anastar has been saying this from the beginning. She accepts the possibility of both pairings being canon. It's a love triangle, Cloud obviously wavers between the two girl in the game. It's just that she agrees with Clerith. Hence, her arguments.

*ninjas into thread*

I think Anastar failed to point out that what she was using was being used as an example of how a conversation could end apathetically. I think it would of been better to use names like Steve and Linda.

Steve: Just to be clear, I don’t want to be anything more than friends with you, Linda.
Linda: That’s fine, Steve. I feel the same way.

*ninjas out of thread*[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Way to go Kuki!

But that conversation did not happen and we are shown the whole conversation in the LA version. The issue is the communicated feelings that were exchanged without using words that comes after the conversation. We argue that no communication of feelings happen in the LA version while romantic feelings were exchanged in the HA version.

Once again, it was just an example of a conversation. It could have happened or not after the screen faded to black and they talked about who-knows-what. The night was long, surely they didn't just stared at the stars. Oh wait-Tifa did sleep. Huh. Maybe she did that after the screen faded, maybe she didn't.

However Anastar argues that feelings can be communicated in the LA version which she argues that mutual romantic disinterest. But so far, there's no official profile that supports this theory. I'm confused because she argues for the optionality of Cloud's feelings, but argues that AC and materials after that shows Clerith evidence, which is not player influenced.

Yes, it is a theory. But do remember, and I think aerbear has provided the quote somewhere, that it can be left up to interpretation of the audience. And of course she would present Clerith evidence, that's what she agrees with.

Is it really that hard to accept that she agrees with Clerith but also accepts the possibility of both pairings?
I do accept that bot pairings could happen, that Clerith may continue even after death or that Cloti can happen in the future. Either way, I'm still for Clerith.

Surprise, surprise!

Imma go make like a banana here and split.

*disappears*

 

[Master Bates]

They are not SE, as far as I remember.
And wasn't she saying that mutual feelings can also happen in the LA version. That one could have been not romantic.

The point, way to miss it.

No seriously, Anastar asked for proof of romance in those 8 HW quotes. Allexperts (her favorite site ) and a Japanese native proved that 7 out of those 8 (I dunno the current score, but last I checked, it was 7) quotes were romantic. They're not SE, yes, but they proved that what SE is trying to say with those quotes is that they are of romantic nature, further debunking Anastar's "mutual romantic disinterest" hullabaloo.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I'm a bit busy with studies so I hate it that I cannot spend time for FOR NOW. Maybe next week.

They are not SE, as far as I remember.

So you won't believe any translation that are not from SE? Noli Me Tangere is translated from Spanish yet reading it is part of our curriculum. Rizal wasn't the one who translated his novels so are you saying that we do not accept the Tagalog translations?

So that's your answer for all the effort to prove that romantic feelings are exchanged literally? So you mean we accept what translations we like just because?

She's awesome that way. She can get your answers for you.

She doesn't know that she rebutted herself. So awesome.

Is it really that hard to accept that she agrees with Clerith but also accepts the possibility of both pairings?

It's not what you accept, it's about what IS. I might not accept Cloti, I might not accept Clack but what we are debating is what IS and not what we interpret. Clack isn't canon, but it's possible. Aerti is possible, but it's not canon. I might not accept that Cloud is happy, but it's stated that he was. I might not accept that Aerith knew that Zack was dead, but for now I don't really know is she knew he died or thought that he left her.

There is only canon or no canon on which Cloud loves. We are saying that there's canon and that is Cloud loving Tifa, at the end of the game and continuing in AC. That isn't hard to understand..

It's harder to understand a person claiming that there's no canon but is arguing for the validity of the interpretation of certain pairing. It's harder to understand the arguments of a person using interpretations that certain things are related even though there's no proof that there are. Example:

1. Tifa's complex feelings means jealousy means that Cloud has feelings for Aerith
2. Tifa considering Aerith as alove rival means that Cloud loves Aerith

Where's the quote that you can use as a cross reference for these arguments? Those quotes to be interpreted to favor Clerith needs other quotes. It's harder to understand a person who challenges the other to prove a negative as a response to a challenge to prove her positive statements.

Example:
Bob: Cloud says to Tifa that "I have you" and "now it's different."
Ana: What is tha proof that he doesn't change his mind?

And then posts later she asks again where Cloud having Tifa differently came from. I'm too lazy to search for her exact quotes, but I can PM them to you next week if you want to.

It's even hard to continue debating to a person who ignores everyone's argument and replies as if she never read other posts. She doesn't need to reply to everyone, but at least she should read them.

 

[looneymoon]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And how exactly does Cloud look depressed at the end?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Doesn’t look depressed to me, especially in comparison to how he looks earlier in the game.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Well... definitely looks a lot different in comparison to the rest of the game, I'll give you that.

 

[Vanitas]

Is it really that hard to accept that she agrees with Clerith but also accepts the possibility of both pairings?

I'll assume that Anastar is Chantara? I can't speak for everyone else, but it's kind of hard to believe that she accepts the possibility of both when she's making up a conversation that didn't happen in the game just to invalidate C/T (or at least, that's the sort of impression I'm getting at the moment, idk. Correct me if I'm wrong. ). So you say it's "just an example" or the conversation may or may not have happened in the fade to black scene. But this is all just speculation, and I think a lot of people here are just arguing about things we CAN prove, rather than what may or may not have happened, if that makes sense...
Besides, how does proving that "C/T had a romantic mutual disinterest in the LAHW" make C/A a possibility?

 

[Splintered]

*ninjas into thread*

I think Anastar failed to point out that what she was using was being used as an example of how a conversation could end apathetically. I think it would of been better to use names like Steve and Linda.





*ninjas out of thread*[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Steve and Linda seem like pretty cool guys, I appreciate their ability to handle such situations with a level head.

The problem is, while Steve has a nine to five job and Linda is a clerk, Cloud and Tifa are probably spending the last day on Earth together (as far as they know). And they had romantic tension throughout the game. So let's just be friends, hey how about we sleep together (not necessarily with), "this day will never come again so let me have this moment, because I'm totally happy to confirm I got no special feelings for you" sounds... more difficult.

Especially if Linda just helped Steve through one of the most hardest moments in his life. And then Steve says later, "We're just friends... but I can start my life over because I now have you."

The decisions leading up to, and the decisions and moments that are after... just aren't apathetic.

 

[ClerithRaven]

So you won't believe any translation that are not from SE? Noli Me Tangere is translated from Spanish yet reading it is part of our curriculum. Rizal wasn't the one who translated his novels so are you saying that we do not accept the Tagalog translations?

So that's your answer for all the effort to prove that romantic feelings are exchanged literally? So you mean we accept what translations we like just because?

Whoa. Hold your horses there Missy.
Did I say that those translations are not to be taken into account?
And no, I accept translations that are official. Sure a fan can do one, and if it makes sense and is fairly close, why not?

And you dragged Noli Me Tangere into this. Why? Was it translated by just a fan? Even if it was, the difference is that the Tagalog Translation was published.

She doesn't know that she rebutted herself. So awesome.

Nah. More like she knew what you were getting at.

It's not what you accept, it's about what IS. I might not accept Cloti, I might not accept Clack but what we are debating is what IS and not what we interpret. Clack isn't canon, but it's possible. Aerti is possible, but it's not canon. I might not accept that Cloud is happy, but it's stated that he was. I might not accept that Aerith knew that Zack was dead, but for now I don't really know is she knew he died or thought that he left her.

There is only canon or no canon on which Cloud loves. We are saying that there's canon and that is Cloud loving Tifa, at the end of the game and continuing in AC. That isn't hard to understand..

And this stems from the interpretation you got after examining evidence and "story narratives".

It's harder to understand a person claiming that there's no canon but is arguing for the validity of the interpretation of certain pairing. It's harder to understand the arguments of a person using interpretations that certain things are related even though there's no proof that there are.

It's hard for you because you deny it. You deny the very thing we try hard to get recognition: CLERITH. You're closed off because of one thing: "guilt".

1. Tifa's complex feelings means jealousy means that Cloud has feelings for Aerith
2. Tifa considering Aerith as alove rival means that Cloud loves Aerith

1. Would Tifa be that petty to be jealous over a dead woman if there was nothing? If she doesn't sense anything? She already knows that Cloud and Aerith have formed their "special bond/own world" without her, the supposed love interest and no one else. That's enough to be jealous.

2. Nah. It only means that they're both in love with the guy. But seriously, Aerith shouldn't be a rival anymore now right? Coz she's so dead.

Where's the quote that you can use as a cross reference for these arguments? Those quotes to be interpreted to favor Clerith needs other quotes. It's harder to understand a person who challenges the other to prove a negative as a response to a challenge to prove her positive statements.

At least we cross reference and not stick to one quote. An author can put all the puzzles in his work where the pieces can only be put together by looking at different parts.

And then posts later she asks again where Cloud having Tifa differently came from. I'm too lazy to search for her exact quotes, but I can PM them to you next week if you want to.

Sure.

It's even hard to continue debating to a person who ignores everyone's argument and replies as if she never read other posts. She doesn't need to reply to everyone, but at least she should read them.

First off, I don't see the need to reply to someone who I think is rude, and Anastar has that right. Second, why should she include other people's arguments in replying to another, especially is she deems that person rude?

I wouldn't include A's post in my reply to B because A is rude.
Simple as that, m'Lady.

Mystearica, I love her from Tales. Glad to see another fan. Anyway.

I'll assume that Anastar is Chantara? I can't speak for everyone else, but it's kind of hard to believe that she accepts the possibility of both when she's making up a conversation that didn't happen in the game just to invalidate C/T (or at least, that's the sort of impression I'm getting at the moment, idk. Correct me if I'm wrong. ). So you say it's "just an example" or the conversation may or may not have happened in the fade to black scene. But this is all just speculation, and I think a lot of people here are just arguing about things we CAN prove, rather than what may or may not have happened, if that makes sense...
Besides, how does proving that "C/T had a romantic mutual disinterest in the LAHW" make C/A a possibility?

Oh no. She's not making it up like it was a part of the convo. She's presenting a theory of how the convo went as the screen faded to make sense of/further explain her view of the apathetic night.
I believe she's said that maybe Cloud had expressed disinterest because of Aerith. That is, again, a theory. A maybe. She'd be better at explaining it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll get to the meat and potatoes of some of these responses later, but just a reminder, any and all distinction between 'engraved in the heart' and 'etched in the mind' is actually rather pointless for the C/A side because the verbs are the same, and it's TIFA who's engraved in the 'heart/chest' and Aerith whose word is also used to mean mind.

Interesting, no?

 

[Vanitas]

Mystearica, I love her from Tales. Glad to see another fan. Anyway.

Haha, at least we can have something to talk about besides this.

Oh no. She's not making it up like it was a part of the convo. She's presenting a theory of how the convo went as the screen faded to make sense of/further explain her view of the apathetic night.
I believe she's said that maybe Cloud had expressed disinterest because of Aerith. That is, again, a theory. A maybe. She'd be better at explaining it.

Oh okay. I'll apologise if it seemed like was accusing her of something, I really wasn't. It's just the way she worded it made it seemed like she was implying that that's what was going on in the scene. She also tends to use the words "clearly" and "obviously" like it's fact, which is why I think a lot of people are confused where she is in terms of arguing for canon or interpretation. It could also be why a lot of people are irritated and feel that their points are being shrugged off. Maybe this could all just be a big misunderstanding between arguing canon and interpretation, idk.

 

[Dashell]

You are quotemining Hito again.

She'd stop if she was able
There's a platypus controlling her
He's underneath the table

..



I mean...


Personally I don't see why this koibito thing is being discussed anymore. I really wish Hito's explanation would stop being picked at too, we know what the word means. It doesn't need to be discussed anymore. I'll happily apply "beloved" to both quotes and even say "Hey maybe the Reunion Files is saying she's loved by a bunch of people." Even though it's NOT a definition of the word.

Koibito is such a small piece of the puzzle. Honestly, I don't think it'd needed. Hell I don't think the Highwind scene is either...

BTW Zealkin:

All I know is that the translation was given to us. People have asked for a scan of the page from the person who translated it, but the scan hasn&#8217;t been provided to us yet.

We DID find this. It says that Aerith grows fond of Cloud and they become close. It does NOT say there's something between them.


But I miss when Anastar and I used to debate... Zealkin, can I respond to this one?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Whoa. Hold your horses there Missy.
Did I say that those translations are not to be taken into account?
And no, I accept translations that are official. Sure a fan can do one, and if it makes sense and is fairly close, why not?

And you dragged Noli Me Tangere into this. Why? Was it translated by just a fan? Even if it was, the difference is that the Tagalog Translation was published.

I used that as an example that translations not by the author can still be valid. And the dude at one site that explains that C/T is romantic was not even a Final Fantasy fan. And being a fan does not automatically make you less professional or less reliable in translation. Even Takahiro Sakurai is a Cloud fanboy and he was able to deliver Cloud the way he knew his character and what the director instructed.

If you take account those translations, what do you say then about 7/8 quotes being romantic in nature? And some of those quotes are in Cloud and Tifa's profiles.

Nah. More like she knew what you were getting at.

My criticisms are never personal. She's free to criticize me as well. If she cannot stand criticism then that speaks for itself.

And this stems from the interpretation you got after examining evidence and "story narratives".

We are explaining that it's not merely an interpretation but an objective conclusion.

It's hard for you because you deny it. You deny the very thing we try hard to get recognition: CLERITH. You're closed off because of one thing: "guilt".

Don't judge us because we're being so consistent with our stand. Feel free to point out contradictions or fallacies in our argumentation. And if Clerith isn't recognized, why do we bother in debating? If it's not important that we could have just ignored your posts and proceeded with fangirling/fanboying. Why are some posters here argue for Cloti even if they like Clerith and are even members of the Clerith club?

Are you saying that all our efforts to prove our points are simply denial?

1. Would Tifa be that petty to be jealous over a dead woman if there was nothing? If she doesn't sense anything? She already knows that Cloud and Aerith have formed their "special bond/own world" without her, the supposed love interest and no one else. That's enough to be jealous.

Prove that complex feelings is jealousy.

2. Nah. It only means that they're both in love with the guy. But seriously, Aerith shouldn't be a rival anymore now right? Coz she's so dead.

But Anastar argues that she still is. Nobody is disputing that Aerith and Tifa both love Cloud. But she is claiming that Cloud's wavering over the two women never stopped even after Aerith died.

First off, I don't see the need to reply to someone who I think is rude, and Anastar has that right. Second, why should she include other people's arguments in replying to another, especially is she deems that person rude?

I wouldn't include A's post in my reply to B because A is rude.
Simple as that, m'Lady.

So I am rude...? Rude because I'm a harsh criticizer? Everyone except Zealkin is rude? If one uses words like "fuck" he's rude? Being called silly is rude even though Aerith called Zack silly at their first meeting?

I told you that she doesn't need to reply to everybody but she posts as if she never knew that her arguments were already addressed. And this is a public debate and it's more rude to ignore everyone.

I... really need to stop replying... but... it's so hard. Guys, please reply for me before I get hooked again in this. Sorry, real life is demanding more time. I take my leave now... temporarily.

 

[Vanitas]

I initially decided not to respond to ClerithRaven's whole message because she was addressing Danseru-kun, but I'll just add my two cents. Good points by the way, Danseru-kun.
First of all, I don't think there is anyone here that's trying to put C/A down as a pairing, they are just stating that there's nothing in the official ultimanias which suggest that anything that could have happened between them was mutual, due to Aerith's demise. There is nothing to suggest that Cloud felt nothing for Aerith, so I think it's honestly okay for C/A shippers to ship Clerith as much as they want. The thing is that C/T have had quotes that say "feelings were shared", which is the premise that SE's intention was C/T. I think that's the only thing all the people here are trying to get you to recognise, really.

 

[Zealkin]

We DID find this. It says that Aerith grows fond of Cloud and they become close. It does NOT say there's something between them.


But I miss when Anastar and I used to debate... Zealkin, can I respond to this one?

Sure Quex

And I might be late on the response, finishing college apps. So any help would be appreciated.

But I have continued to notice that Chantara is thanking the posts of others..I thought she couldn't look at other peoples posts or format without it being messaged...?

 

[Strangelove]

Tifa: "Hey Cloud... I know you said we should get to sleep but..."
Cloud: "god just shut up What is it?"
Tifa: "I didn't think Godfather Part 3 was that bad."
Cloud: "Yeah, I guess, whatever. 'Night."

Is this what writing fanfiction is like? Because I like it.

no seriously why aren't we talking about what was actually in the game.

At least when people talk about Cloud and Tifa having sex, they've got something beyond imagination to back that up.

You are quotemining Hito again.

Everyone loves me in their own special ways



Re: official translations: I was reading a blog post by a professional translator who was complaining about how companies like TokyoPop did business. Apparently they gave $3 (which is low as a page rate) a page and got stuff of questionable quality in return. But those were still the 'official translations'. Some were shite from the sounds of it, but hey. It's official. Suck it up and don't complain, am i right?

I don't think fan translations are some perfect gospel that should be taken over the official ones, but just because they're official doesn't mean they are going to be free of mistakes. And just because people are fans doesn't mean they aren't competent. Just having a nice job title doesn't suddenly make you immune to error. Just like how there's good published translations and bad ones, the same is true for fan translations. I've seen some god-awful fan translations, but some very well made ones too.

As far as I know the stance here wasn't ever "let's completely disregard the official translations and replace them with our own!" Partly because most of the stuff being talked about has no official translation. But there's going to be differences when translating from one language to another, and those might need some explaining to help clear them up. Which is what goes on here. No one goes up to Biblical scholars and says "lolz gaiz, you're wasting your time with all that herbrew and greek shit, i've got it in english right here!" Because looking at the original can clear things up.

Nor was it ever 'take our word for it and accept only this one'. I don't think that having half a dozen people working on a translation of the same thing is the best use of effort and time. Like when manga scanlation groups come out with 5 different versions of the same chapter. Maybe if say one of those groups produced work that was abysmally bad all the time, then starting over with a new translation might be the easiest thing to do. But I think people getting together to critique a single translation to get rid of any possible flaws would be the best course of action.

In some cases multiple translations might be interesting, but in a lot of the cases here (Ultimanias and the like) there's not really any need for that. Next time there's something people aren't happy about, I hope they will just say what it is and ideally show their reasoning for it and suggestions as to how it might be different.

wow that went somewhere completely different

 

[JayM]

I thought she couldn't look at other peoples posts or format without it being messaged...?

A few pages back I believe Aly explained this one...she searches for posts by username and thanks them.

So this isn't a super-short post, I'm going to throw my hat in with the people who think the explanation of the LA HW scene is implausible. We see the entire LA HW scene (unless there's more talking after the fade to black? but I thought it was implied to be short?). So the dialogue being mentioned could not have happened. Regardless of the feelings between the two characters, or the intentions of the creators, this "just friends" conversation did not exist in the narrative text of the LA HW scene.

Kuki, Aly, CR, aerbear, and any other CxA folks I missed--in order to make this argument you guys've gotta prove

1. that the conversation went beyond what we saw
2. that the theorized extended dialogue was a confirmation of friendship
and if you want to really make this a point FOR Clerith
3. that the reason Cloud would only want to be friends is because he is in love with Aeris, to the exclusion of being in love with Tifa.

IMO this is a really convoluted way to work around to arguing that Cloud loves Aeris, and I think getting past point one will be incredibly difficult, much less getting to point three. I'd let this one go. CloTi doesn't invalidate the existence of Clerith; you don't need to disprove it to argue for Clerith.

Also, since (per the discussion on CxA) what Aly is arguing for is the optionality, it's really unnecessary to disprove CloTi. As I stated above, before this argument can even become an argument in favor of Clerith, you have to prove two things about the conversation which as far as I know are not provable. I think it is wasting time to focus on this, and it's only fostering misunderstanding.

Again, strictly IMO, as always, and after this I will probably go back to just arguing about translations.