The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Anastar · Jan 6, 2012

Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

[FONT=&quot]Agent P
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]First of all, some more on your argument about the phrase [/FONT]想いを通わせる proving that the High Affection HW scene is the phrase being talked about in the seven quotes you posted. I decided to ask the expert you spoke to at allexperts.com about whether or not the phrase 想いを通わせる is romantic.

In my question, I asked whether it could be determined by the sentence alone whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, or whether the context of the story needed to be referenced in order to decide whether or not they were romantically involved. This is his reply:

[FONT=&quot]http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&expID=116720&qID=5004875[/FONT]

He says that he would rely on the context of the story to determine whether or not they’re romantically involved instead of using the sentence alone.

Since the context of the Compilation does not hold any conclusive answer about whether Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is romantic or platonic, the context of the story is inconclusive. Different people arrive at a different answer to the LT on the context of the story. Since there is no conclusive answer in the context of the story, then this sentence alone cannot answer the question conclusively.

Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance, but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story. Dreamstar plans to post about what her friend said, so I’ll let her go into more detail about it.

By the way, I am still waiting on a reply from someone who was unavailable over the holidays, so I may have more to say about the phrase 想いを通わせる in the near future.

Quex said:
All I know is that the translation was given to us. People have asked for a scan of the page from the person who translated it, but the scan hasn’t been provided to us yet.

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I have found this but I'm afraid it doesn't say what you thought it did.

クラウドに好意を抱き、あっという間に親しい仲に。
She is fond of Cloud, and in no time at all they became close.

It's a caption in Aerith's profile, top right corner of page 29. 'Fond of' is the old standard for having (the foundations of) a romantic interest in someone. The 親しい仲 part might have been where they got 'something between them' from, I'm not sure.

Okay, but like I said before – we’ve asked the translator for the scan, but she never provided it. I simply can’t speak for the translator in order to explain why she translated it the way she did. All I can do is ask her again if and when I hear from her.

It’s possible, for example, that she may have written down the wrong page number so you’re looking at a different page. I’ve no idea.

Quex said:
But it’s not just like the Promise, since it’s said in Cloud’s profile that the Promise is etched in his memory, which implies something that he remembers like someone’s name or a definition or an email address. Being engraved in his heart is something that he has an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to him.

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See above. And once again, the phrase is used for something that you don't forget. There isn't automatically romantic implications. And again, I've seen you use the official translation of the koibito quote in reunion files countless times and dismiss fan translations. Please pick a constant stance on whether or not fan translations should be used.

Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re getting at here when you say to pick a constant stance on the fan translations. I’ve been using the official English translations from the Reunion Files.

Are you talking about the meaning of the word koibito? Whether or not I use your meaning or Tres’s meaning or the meaning provided by Rygdea or the meaning provided by JayM, I’m still using a fan translation. From what I can see, the meaning of mutual affection is every bit as valid as one-sided affection for the word koibito. Even Google translate says that koibito means “lover”.

Now, kobito is officially translated as “sweetheart” by SE in the quote about Tifa in the Reunion Files, but the word is still koibito. Besides, “sweetheart” doesn’t automatically mean mutual love, does it?

However, I don’t see what using fan translations has to do with the meaning of “engraved in the heart” vs. “etched in his memory”. We’re both using the only translations we have available, and we’re using the same translation.

What I actually said about using fan translations is that we can’t always know for sure that they are correct. I think that’s a good thing to keep in mind, since not all TLS translations have corresponded to the translations provided by SE. That doesn’t mean all fan translations are wrong, nor does it mean that all fan translations are correct. It means we need to be aware that SE sometimes translates differently than TLS anticipates.

And I discussed the meaning of “engraved in the heart” in my previous post and provided examples.

Quex said:
Anastar said:

A picture of the Clerith date labeled as optional and a picture of the HW scene labeled as optional under a title of “Love Between Heroes” on the FTOIL page IS a quote which shows that love between the two heroines is optional. That’s what the FTOIL page is saying.

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Is what I bolded an opinion or a fact?

I’ve asked you and Zealkin and others the same question about what you say the FTOIL page is saying. I am willing to admit that what I say is opinion, but are you willing to admit that what you say is opinion?

Just because you think the evidence backs you up (in your opinion) doesn’t mean that SE agrees with you. Since SE has not stated a definite answer conclusively, then you shouldn’t presume to make decisions for SE.

Quex said:
Also can you please highlight on the FTOIL page where this deviation is listed? I don't see it. You obviously have the picture, so can you please circle it or something?

I’ve already explained that. It’s right here:

Since page 232 is about the scene deviations, then the page number is as good as actually writing the word. Writing the page number just allows SE to discuss the deviation in more detail.

Quex said:
So is the quote from Kitase about the hero wavering between the two heroines. Kitase never says that Cloud only wavers between the two heroines at the beginning of the game.

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No but you only have the option to waver in the beginning.

again

B. Once you stop "wavering" or your options go away, the choice has been made.

The options may stop at the end of Disk One, but the result of “wavering” still affects what version of the HW scene you get. Therefore, whatever “decision” was made by the options is still effective in Disk Two.

Given that there’s never been any confirmation by word or action in the Compilation after the HW scene of whether or not Cloud loves Tifa, then it looks to me as if it’s been left open to interpretation.

Quex said:
A. This does not mean there isn't a canon outcome more than Shadow surviving in FF6 doesn't have a canon outcome

And having a canon ending for Shadow doesn’t prove that there’s a canon ending for the HW scene. After all, even the “LTD is Over” article says that any scene under player control does not have an official version:

Source: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

Since the HW scene is under player control, then there is no official version according to that article.

Quex said:
Another thing reinforcing the idea of love being optional are the statements in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO about there being two versions of the HW scene, one being low affection and one being high affection. The fact that there is a high affection and a low affection version in itself says that Cloud loving Tifa is optional, especially when there is nothing in the Compilation after the HW scene which conclusively shows that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.

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Is the Highwind scene the only thing that proves who Cloud loves?

Actually, you didn’t answer my question. What I said is that both the 20th AU and the FFVII UO state that the deviations exist. If SE says that the optional versions exist, then SE doesn’t consider either version to be canon. If neither version is canon, then who Cloud loves is optional.

As I’ve stated before, SE never states that HA HW scene is canon. The only thing stated as canon by SE is that the HW scene has optional versions – which means that neither version is canon.

Furthermore, there is no action taken or word spoken in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm which version of the HW scene actually happened.

As far as whether it’s the HW scene alone which proves who Cloud loves, I believe that was the assertion of the TLS article about the FTOIL page:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

According to that article, it’s the picture of the HW scene on the FTOIL page that makes you think Cloud loves Tifa. Unfortunately, the article ignores the fact that the HW scene is labeled as optional. The article even states below the picture of the Clerith date scene that any scene under player control does not have an official version. That would mean that the HW scene has no official version.

Quex said:
What if I'm mean to both Aerith, and Tifa? I get Yuffie's date and the LA scene. Does this mean Cloud loves Aerith?

If you’re mean to both Aerith and Tifa, then Cloud loves neither girl romantically. That’s why I say it’s left open to interpretation who Cloud loves. Yuffie is not a member of the Love Triangle, so it’s not possible for Cloud to love Yuffie. The only girls stated to be love rivals by SE and stated to be in the Love Triangle with Cloud are Aerith and Tifa.

Quex said:
What if I get Aerith's date and the HA scene? (which is completely possible, and what I believe is the canon way that happened)

In that case, I’d say that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa. As far as what you believe to be the canon way it happened, where does SE say that? As you yourself said, it’s only your opinion.

Quex said:
Anastar said:

SE has never stated that the High Affection version of the HW scene is canon OR default. This is merely an opinion you and other Cloti’s have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the HA version is canon (except in your opinion).

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SE has never said the FTOIL page is saying Cloud's love is optional. This is merely an opinion you and others have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the FTOIL page is sayin Cloud's love is optional. (except in your opinion)

True – so that means we’re on equal footing. Your opinion hasn’t been validated by SE and neither has mine.

Quex said:
Anastar said:

And now once again, you’re asking me for evidence that Cloud’s feelings are optional instead of static during the game. Why do I need a quote that proves Cloud’s feelings are optional during the game when there’s no quote proving that Cloud’s feelings are static during the game?

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Okay, I agree that Cloud can waver between the two in the game.

You didn’t answer my question. Why do I need a quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is optional when you have no quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is static?

Quex said:
But I also think that there are canon events of those scenes that are the outcome of what he does.

Which means that it’s your opinion.

Quex said:
So saying Cloud's love can waver doesn't really prove anything, because it's true. But that doesn't mean there isn't a canon version of events.

It doesn’t prove that there IS a canon version of events, either.

Quex said:
There's only one person that Cloud fell in love with as a child:

SOURCE 10th AU page 12: "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

---------

SOURCE Crisis Core Ultimania: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her.

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There is only one girl that Cloud has been said to share romantic feelings with 7 times (quotes have been posted many times, I won't bother)

And how does loving her as a child (actually, a dim crush on her according to SE) prove that he loves her as an adult?

Quex said:
one girl he chose to live with in a different way than before

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“It all starts now. A new…”
Cloud looked for the right words.
“A new life.”
“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”
“That’s right…”
“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”
“Why?”
“Because I’ve always failed everything.”
“That’s not funny.”
“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)

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one girl he is meant to live with, that he belongs with,

And where does Cloud say that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? What he actually says is that what he means is kind of different. He said nothing about living with her, so why do you think he means that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? Why do you think it means that he’s meant to live with Tifa when he doesn’t say that?

It sounds to me like he’s saying that he’ll be okay because he has Tifa with him. That could mean in a platonic sense – there’s nothing definitely romantic about it. If there was anything romantic about it, why doesn’t Tifa take it that way? Why doesn’t he kiss her or something to show that it’s romantic? You’re merely interpreting this in a certain way – there’s nothing definite here.

Quex said:
SOURCE: 10th AU:

Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live.

This is after Aerith and Zack told Cloud that it wasn’t his time to die yet. So when it says he realizes where he is meant to live (like Aerith and Zack told him), then it means that’s the location he’s supposed to live in.

“His family were waiting” – Tifa said in CoT that the family is made up of friends, and that is reinforced in the Reunion Files:

When Cloud regains consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone. ~Reunion Files, pg. 119

It says nothing about his family watching over him – just his friends and the orphans. That means his family are his friends. Then it refers to Aerith and Zack. After that, it says that Cloud’s no longer alone. So according to this, Cloud is no longer alone because of his friends, the orphans, Aerith, and Zack. To me, that means he was alone before AC/ACC while he was living with his “family”.

Quex said:
SOURCE: Nojima on AC:
Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged.

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Even if it's just locations, one must ask the question, "Why was it so important that they'd be together in the same location?"

How does being together in the same location prove that they are romantically involved? Rufus and Rude are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved? Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved?

Quex said:
One girl who he has a family with....

(Multiple Quotes from the 10th AU stating that the family is Cloud and Tifa's)

And a new novella where Cloud says that Barret’s part of the family, too.

Tifa said the family is made up of friends. The family existed before Cloud was invited into it, and Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him - so if anything Denzel is actually the “child” of Aerith and Cloud, not Cloud and Tifa. Marlene is really Barret’s child (actually Dyne’s), not Cloud and Tifa’s.

Quex said:
one girl he said he had feelings for in the Lifestream Event, a non optional scene

SOURCE Ultimania Omega page 25: Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.

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We have been over all of these quotes before. So why are we going over them again? At any rate, as I’ve said before, this passage is only talking about the feelings Cloud had for Tifa as a kid. It’s not saying that he has feelings for her now.

Quex said:

SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.

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Cloud recalled many memories during the Lifestream event which were important to him and that no one knew about - including getting blamed for Tifa’s fall at the bridge, being excluded from Tifa’s group of friends, and wanting to join SOLDIER so he’d be like Sephiroth and everyone would notice him.

Quex said:

SOURCE: 10th AU: "they [Cloud and Tifa] became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding

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and so on....

It doesn’t say the “thoughts/feelings which each other was holding” for each other, and Cloud revealed feelings that he had when he got blamed for Tifa falling at the bridge and when he got excluded from Tifa’s group. Besides, I see nothing to indicate that this quote is talking about the Lifestream event. For all I know, It could be talking about the HW scene.

Quex said:
And I’ve stated why I think your reasoning is skewed, and I have yet to see a quote that conclusively proves that your theory is correct. I won’t say that your theory isn’t possible because I think both your theory and my theory about Cloud’s love interest are possible.

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Idk what theory this was so Imma leave it at that.

I'm leaving the koibito stuff to Zealkin since I'm so SICK of debating that damn word.

I assume there’s nothing I’m supposed to comment on here.

Quex said:
Where does it say that Cloud wants Tifa in a different way than before? Or is that just your opinion?

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I posted the quote above. If Cloud didn't WANT Tifa in a different way, he'd have said so. He's a big boy, he can stand up for himself.

And I discussed that quote above.

Quex said:
1. Blushing around Tifa is no proof that he loves her. After all, blushing can be due to embarrassment.

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So he's embarrassed that he has Tifa in a way that's different than before?

Where does it say he blushed? There’s nothing about him blushing in the quote you gave me above.

Quex said:
2. Cloud supports Aerith, too, in more than one scene. Some examples:

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Yes he does. I don't disagree with this... moving on...

Okay.

Quex said:
3. As for Cloud knowing when Tifa’s not being herself, Sephiroth could tell the same thing:

Tifa "Cloud... Don't listen to him..." "Close your ears! Close your eyes!" Cloud "What's wrong, Tifa? I'm not affected by it." "...I wasn't paying attention to him." Tifa "All that talk of Hojo constructing you is a lie." "Don't we have our memories together?" "Being kids together, starlit nights..." (Sephiroth cocks his head toward her.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... Tifa..." "Why are you so worried and scared by those words?" "Hmm... Shall I show everyone here what's in your heart?" (She quickly turns away, without a word.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... You look like you're not feeling well." (He disappears. Cloud turns to Tifa) Cloud "...Tifa? Is Sephiroth right?"
Does that mean Sephiroth’s in love with Tifa?

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Idk what's going on here or what the original argument was so leaving this to Zealkin.

Okay.

Quex said:
4. 4. Raising a family together does not indicate in and of itself that Cloud and Tifa are in love. Let’s say that Barret and Tifa were living in the Seventh Heaven with Denzel and Marlene. Would you think that Barret and Tifa are in love just because they’re bringing up Denzel and Marlene? Would you think Barret and Tifa were in love if they started calling that group a family?

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Yes, honest to Dr. Doofenshmirtz I would. If Cloud was NOT there, living on his own somewhere, and it was JUST Barret and Tifa, and Barret brought Denzel home and said, "I felt Aerith or whoever lead Denzel to our home" and was blushing around her and she was asking him "Do you love me" and Nojima said they belonged together and they had 7 quotes saying they had romantic feelings for one another and stuff. Yes Yes i WOULD think they were in love.

Well, you’re free to have that opinion. I just don’t share the same opinion, and I think I’ve explained in detail why I don’t think so in my responses above.

I meant to finish your post today, but this is all I have time for. I’ll try to finish the rest of your post tomorrow.

The Twilight Mexican · Jan 6, 2012

Chantara said:
[FONT=&quot]Agent P[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]First of all, some more on your argument about the phrase [/FONT]想いを通わせる proving that the High Affection HW scene is the phrase being talked about in the seven quotes you posted. I decided to ask the expert you spoke to at allexperts.com about whether or not the phrase 想いを通わせる is romantic.

In my question, I asked whether it could be determined by the sentence alone whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, or whether the context of the story needed to be referenced in order to decide whether or not they were romantically involved. This is his reply:

[FONT=&quot]http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&expID=116720&qID=5004875[/FONT]

He says that he would rely on the context of the story to determine whether or not they’re romantically involved instead of using the sentence alone.

Actually, what happened there is you told him the story had no romantic context for the characters in question:

You said:
I'm asking because:
1) I'm wondering if this sentence alone would *PROVE* that the two people in the sentence are romantically involved with each other.
2) I am familiar with the story this sentence is talking about, and here is no other evidence in the story that the two are romantically involved.

You determined his answer by feeding him a lie.

Anastar said:
Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re getting at here when you say to pick a constant stance on the fan translations. I’ve been using the official English translations from the Reunion Files.

She means you won't use the official translation for the idiom from the Dirge of Cerberus manual, but you insist on the use of official translations in nearly every other situation. You also often disregard fan translations for passages for which there is no official translation, on the basis of there being no official translation.

Your position is inconsistent.

Anastar said:
Are you talking about the meaning of the word koibito? Whether or not I use your meaning or Tres’s meaning or the meaning provided by Rygdea or the meaning provided by JayM, I’m still using a fan translation. From what I can see, the meaning of mutual affection is every bit as valid as one-sided affection for the word koibito. Even Google translate says that koibito means “lover”.

Now, kobito is officially translated as “sweetheart” by SE in the quote about Tifa in the Reunion Files, but the word is still koibito. Besides, “sweetheart” doesn’t automatically mean mutual love, does it?

This is another good example of you being inconsistent, though, so thanks for bringing it up. You can't insist on the word implying mutuality in Case of the Lifestream White and then insist it doesn't mean that in the Reunion Files quote.

For that matter, who is more likely to use the quote in a context of mutuality?: a fictional character doing the desiring, or one of that character's creators, who's describing a role that another character has?

Anastar said:
However, I don’t see what using fan translations has to do with the meaning of “engraved in the heart” vs. “etched in his memory”. We’re both using the only translations we have available, and we’re using the same translation.

You're not using the official translation of the Dirge manual, and you're insisting on some appreciable difference in the meaning between the Japanese idiom's phrase in the Dirge manual and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

Anastar said:
What I actually said about using fan translations is that we can’t always know for sure that they are correct. I think that’s a good thing to keep in mind, since not all TLS translations have corresponded to the translations provided by SE.

It's also important to keep in mind that some official translations by SE have been demonstrably incorrect. And I'm not even talking about anything LTD-related; I'm talking about stuff like FFXII's Clan Primer providing information that would mean FFTactics took place prior to FFXII, while the actual meaning in the original language -- proven by the Ultimania Omega for XII -- meant that Tactics took place after XII.

Anastar said:
And I discussed the meaning of “engraved in the heart” in my previous post and provided examples.

English examples. You didn't reference anything involving the Japanese idiom; the one that SE translated correctly as "who Cloud would never forget."

Anastar said:
Just because you think the evidence backs you up (in your opinion) doesn’t mean that SE agrees with you. Since SE has not stated a definite answer conclusively, then you shouldn’t presume to make decisions for SE.

You realize that the matter in question is one that would be a "definite answer conclusively" if you're wrong, yes?

Anastar said:
I’ve already explained that. It’s right here:

Since page 232 is about the scene deviations, then the page number is as good as actually writing the word. Writing the page number just allows SE to discuss the deviation in more detail.

Pg. 232 is the summary for that part of the story, not just scene deviations. And as has been told to you countless times, every scene under the "For the One I Love" heading has a page reference back to the scene's place in its respective story's summary.

You really can't call the presence of the page number as something comparable to what was done with the Gold Saucer date on that page.

Anastar said:
The options may stop at the end of Disk One, but the result of “wavering” still affects what version of the HW scene you get. Therefore, whatever “decision” was made by the options is still effective in Disk Two.

So -- and I realize asking this is pointless, because you've never provided a straight answer to this question before -- what if you get Yuffie on the date, then get the High Affection scene? What if you get Aerith, then the High Affection scene?

Hell, what if you get Tifa on the date, then get the Low Affection scene? All of these things can be done.

Could it just be that the date mechanics are a game device, and not a reflection of the real story (like we've been saying all along)?

Anastar said:
Given that there’s never been any confirmation by word or action in the Compilation after the HW scene of whether or not Cloud loves Tifa, then it looks to me as if it’s been left open to interpretation.

The premise of your statement here (everything before the comma) is kind of what you need to prove before you can predicate anything else upon it.

Anastar said:
And having a canon ending for Shadow doesn’t prove that there’s a canon ending for the HW scene. After all, even the “LTD is Over” article says that any scene under player control does not have an official version:

Source: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

Since the HW scene is under player control, then there is no official version according to that article.

Why are you still trying to distort what was written there? Both Ryu and I have gone over with you that the article was not saying that player-influenced scenes cannot have canon outcomes.

You've been told 1) that the entire article was written in haste, 2) that most of the time spent doing it was spent finding the Ted Koppel picture, and 3) that the article is merely reporting that the book itself emphasizes the scene is up to player control, which then tells us it doesn't have a canon outcome.

For that matter, you're clearly just trying to play word games here since you're constantly saying things to the effect of "Just because YOU say it, doesn't make it true." But in this one case, you're deferring a statement from one of "YOU" guys to God-like status?

You are still being just as dishonest as ever, and it's really fucking insulting and annoying. How can you even stand yourself?

Anastar said:
Actually, you didn’t answer my question. What I said is that both the 20th AU and the FFVII UO state that the deviations exist. If SE says that the optional versions exist, then SE doesn’t consider either version to be canon. If neither version is canon, then who Cloud loves is optional.

This is absurd. So, then, Shadow living or dying doesn't have a canon outcome? They said both versions exist. Tidus staying dead or being revived? They said both versions exist.

Anastar said:
As far as whether it’s the HW scene alone which proves who Cloud loves, I believe that was the assertion of the TLS article about the FTOIL page:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

No. No, it was not.

Anastar said:
According to that article, it’s the picture of the HW scene on the FTOIL page that makes you think Cloud loves Tifa.

No, it's the text on the fucking page.

Anastar said:
Unfortunately, the article ignores the fact that the HW scene is labeled as optional.

Only it isn't.

Anastar said:
The article even states below the picture of the Clerith date scene that any scene under player control does not have an official version.

No, it doesn't, you sad, sad liar.

Anastar said:
If you’re mean to both Aerith and Tifa, then Cloud loves neither girl romantically.

You don't even have any options to be mean to Tifa, so, what the hell?

Anastar said:
That’s why I say it’s left open to interpretation who Cloud loves. Yuffie is not a member of the Love Triangle, so it’s not possible for Cloud to love Yuffie. The only girls stated to be love rivals by SE and stated to be in the Love Triangle with Cloud are Aerith and Tifa.

Again, you can't be consistent. You say the in-game date mechanic reflects the narrative, then claim that the narrative overrides the mechanic.

You'll apply that to Yuffie and Barret's dates, but not the Low Affection Highwind scene.

Anastar said:
You didn’t answer my question. Why do I need a quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is optional when you have no quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is static?

You've been given quotes that say Cloud has been holding romantic feelings for Tifa since he was a child. You just always ignore what they actually say and claim they mean he "was holding" them, but stopped at some point. You also then make certain to make light of the feelings from his childhood.

Anastar said:
Que said:

So saying Cloud's love can waver doesn't really prove anything, because it's true. But that doesn't mean there isn't a canon version of events.

Click to expand...

It doesn’t prove that there IS a canon version of events, either.

These non sequitur responses are really old, by the way. You might as well be saying "But gas ISN'T 50 cents a gallon anymore" for all the points you're actually addressing when you do it. 'Cause you're not actually responding to anything someone actually said.

Anastar said:
And how does loving her as a child (actually, a dim crush on her according to SE) prove that he loves her as an adult?

And there's making light of his feelings for her when he was younger. Right on time. Predictable as a train schedule.

Anastar said:
This is after Aerith and Zack told Cloud that it wasn’t his time to die yet. So when it says he realizes where he is meant to live (like Aerith and Zack told him), then it means that’s the location he’s supposed to live in.

“His family were waiting” – Tifa said in CoT that the family is made up of friends, and that is reinforced in the Reunion Files:

When Cloud regains consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone. ~Reunion Files, pg. 119

It says nothing about his family watching over him – just his friends and the orphans. That means his family are his friends. Then it refers to Aerith and Zack. After that, it says that Cloud’s no longer alone. So according to this, Cloud is no longer alone because of his friends, the orphans, Aerith, and Zack. To me, that means he was alone before AC/ACC while he was living with his “family”.

You just conflated quotes from two different source to make one of them say something different than what it actually said. Cloud's friends and family are differentiated in the quote from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and his family is listed as Tifa, Marlene and Denzel:

(Scan and translation by hitoshura;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/cloudpl.jpg)

"The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he
realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive
himself.

And when he turns around--- 'she' is starting to leave. Together with the
friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in
loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---."

And you're still using "family of friends" crap when you've never explained 1) why they all don't live together if "Cloud's family" refers to the same thing as the "family of friends," and 2) exactly what sins Marlene is supposed to have.

Anastar said:
And a new novella where Cloud says that Barret’s part of the family, too.

Don't even try that shit. Cloud doesn't say that. He's referring to the family who is standing right there with him (Marlene, Tifa and Denzel), and equates it to the situation with the family standing in front of them (Vits, Evan and Kyrie).

By the way, The Kids Are Alright isn't a novella -- it's a full-length novel.

Anastar said:
Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him - so if anything Denzel is actually the “child” of Aerith and Cloud, not Cloud and Tifa.

Bullshit. Incredible bullshit. Aerith has done nothing to raise the boy. Denzel himself sees Tifa as his mother (and that has been officially stated, so don't even try to deny it).

For that matter, his birth parents were designed with similar appearances to Cloud and Tifa. There is literally nothing to make the tie you're trying to here.

Anastar said:
It doesn’t say the “thoughts/feelings which each other was holding” for each other, and Cloud revealed feelings that he had when he got blamed for Tifa falling at the bridge and when he got excluded from Tifa’s group.

Yeah, the most significant feelings from that sequence (which were referenced in both Cloud and Tifa's profiles from the UO) couldn't possibly be the ones that this passage means.

Anastar said:
Besides, I see nothing to indicate that this quote is talking about the Lifestream event. For all I know, It could be talking about the HW scene.

The sentence before it is "She ventured into the Lifestream together with Cloud." =|

Jesus Fucking Christ.

The Twilight Mexican · Jan 6, 2012

By the way, Anastar, a few comments on context (not that you'll care, since you aren't concerned with the truth):

Everything in every language is dependent on context. However, certain turns of phrase become associated through prevalent use with certain meanings.

Could I, technically, say -- in English, mind you -- that Johnny and Jane "realized their feelings for each other" while referring to the fact that they realized they don't like being friends and aren't going to see each other anymore? Sure, I technically could, but the average person is going to find that a poor -- and potentially misleading -- choice of phrasing.

If I say that Johnny and Jane realized their feelings for each other without saying anything else, the average person will take that to mean they fell in love with each other. That is such a prevailing understanding of that choice of phrasing that it has no other connotation.

That's basically what we're dealing with here with the Japanese phrasing about "communicated their feelings" (with that specific form of "omoi"). Could you use it another way? Technically. Would you? Not likely.

At the least, you wouldn't be using it to reference something romantic with Celes
and Locke, then immediately turn around and use it in a different way with other characters. Why aren't you challenging its meaning with those two?

What you did with Michael DePaula -- rather than consider that you have misread later details, which would be informed by the earlier events, like this -- is feed him a blatant lie about all other details in order to create "evidence" that you'll use his quote as while making arguments about those other details. It's the same circular crap you've been doing for years in trying to use your conclusion as evidence for your conclusion.

Strangelove · Jan 6, 2012

Are we seriously going to go around asking the same questions over and over again until someone gives an answer we like? Because that's what this seems to be with 想いを通わせる.

http://www.italki.com/answers/question/124547.htm

Here's some random page I found by putting it into Google, it was the first result. That's three references I've seen (including Quex's original sources and my own asking people) stating it's mostly a romantic phrase. Four if you include what Dreamstar's Japanese friend said (that it indicates romance--she simply didn't see it in the story).

There's a line between trying to find the correct answer (which is fine and I'd welcome) and trying to find someone who says the right thing, which this seems close to crossing/has already done so.

Ryushikaze · Jan 6, 2012

Chantara said:
Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

Disclaimer:
1. You are wrong.
2. Your actions bely your true motives, so we'd all appreciate you dropping the charade. We'd rather not have our intelligences insulted.
3. I am an asshole.
4. I am not attempting to offend you
5. I don't really give a shit if I do.

Tres covered the 'you angled for the response you wanted' bit, so I'll just comment on this bit before.

Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance,

So... QED. It indicates romance.

but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story.

Which means she doesn't see romance in something called romantic.
That sounds like a personal problem.

Okay, but like I said before – we’ve asked the translator for the scan, but she never provided it. I simply can’t speak for the translator in order to explain why she translated it the way she did. All I can do is ask her again if and when I hear from her.

It’s possible, for example, that she may have written down the wrong page number so you’re looking at a different page. I’ve no idea.

"So, we have no idea what the translator was actually working on, or where in the book it's from, and no way to check their source, and I actually can't get into contact with them, but the translation's TOTALLY LEGIT guys!"
At least have the decency to admit

Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re getting at here when you say to pick a constant stance on the fan translations. I’ve been using the official English translations from the Reunion Files.

But NOT for Dirge's manual.

Are you talking about the meaning of the word koibito? Whether or not I use your meaning or Tres’s meaning or the meaning provided by Rygdea or the meaning provided by JayM, I’m still using a fan translation. From what I can see, the meaning of mutual affection is every bit as valid as one-sided affection for the word koibito. Even Google translate says that koibito means “lover”.

Now, kobito is officially translated as “sweetheart” by SE in the quote about Tifa in the Reunion Files, but the word is still koibito. Besides, “sweetheart” doesn’t automatically mean mutual love, does it?

It means she's someone's sweetheart.
But this is where you're inconsistent. You assume it's a literal description of mutuality when used from the first person perspective who would WANT it to be mutual, but hem and haw and bitch and moan that it could be anything when it's used from the extrauniversal statements of the creator.

However, I don’t see what using fan translations has to do with the meaning of “engraved in the heart” vs. “etched in his memory”. We’re both using the only translations we have available, and we’re using the same translation.

Except those AREN'T the only translations we have. That's the point. You ignore the more correct idiomatic phrasing used in the English manual.
AND for the record, the two phrasings are actually backwards from how you understand them. The verb is the same in both, but the location for Aerith is the term used to mean heart and mind, but Tifa's is the one used to refer to the heart as the seat of emotions.

What I actually said about using fan translations is that we can’t always know for sure that they are correct.

An absurd statement, but one equally true of official translations. SE's had- and still has- some humdingers in their official translations.

I think that’s a good thing to keep in mind, since not all TLS translations have corresponded to the translations provided by SE.

... An example of such, si vous plait. If you mean the bits about Reunion files, most of those are clarifications on the English words chosen you and yours dislike.

That doesn’t mean all fan translations are wrong, nor does it mean that all fan translations are correct. It means we need to be aware that SE sometimes translates differently than TLS anticipates.

What have they translated that we previously translated?

And I discussed the meaning of “engraved in the heart” in my previous post and provided examples.

You provided examples of the English phrase, not the Japanese phrase. The English version DOES NOT USE THIS PHRASE.

I’ve asked you and Zealkin and others the same question about what you say the FTOIL page is saying. I am willing to admit that what I say is opinion, but are you willing to admit that what you say is opinion?[/quote]

It's not opinion. It's a reasoned conclusion based on evidence and parsimony. Yours is asserted without evidence and shall be dismissed without need for such.

Just because you think the evidence backs you up (in your opinion) doesn’t mean that SE agrees with you. Since SE has not stated a definite answer conclusively, then you shouldn’t presume to make decisions for SE.

Oh, that's rich. Coming from someone who claims Cloud and Aerith are soul mates and that Aerith lives in inside Cloud and all the other nonsense you make up, that's really rich.

I’ve already explained that. It’s right here:

Since page 232 is about the scene deviations, then the page number is as good as actually writing the word. Writing the page number just allows SE to discuss the deviation in more detail.

It allows SE to summarise the entire scene in more detail, same as it does for all the other pages. It's more than just deviations.
What they put here is what they want to emPHAsize.

The options may stop at the end of Disk One, but the result of “wavering” still affects what version of the HW scene you get. Therefore, whatever “decision” was made by the options is still effective in Disk Two.

Given that there’s never been any confirmation by word or action in the Compilation after the HW scene of whether or not Cloud loves Tifa, then it looks to me as if it’s been left open to interpretation.

Not them moving in together, Cloud saying he'd have Tifa by his side from then on, thinking he could succeed with her, her being part of his family, the family THEY formed, them having a future together, I can go on.
And on. And on.
None of that confirms anything, you say?

And having a canon ending for Shadow doesn’t prove that there’s a canon ending for the HW scene. After all, even the “LTD is Over” article says that any scene under player control does not have an official version:

Source: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

Since the HW scene is under player control, then there is no official version according to that article.

I will thank you NOT to put words in my mouth in the future, Anastar. That is NOT what I said there and you HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT REPEATEDLY.
You are now INESCAPABLY, WILLFULLY, LYING.

I'll even repeat this- The page emphasizing the choice of the matter DOES NOT MEAN no one version cannot be official. It means the page DOES NOT CONFIRM ANY ONE VERSION.
That's what I meant. It's why I put quotes around the word 'official'

Actually, you didn’t answer my question. What I said is that both the 20th AU and the FFVII UO state that the deviations exist. If SE says that the optional versions exist, then SE doesn’t consider either version to be canon. If neither version is canon, then who Cloud loves is optional.

Your logic is faulty from premise to non sequitor to conclusion.
The U20 and the U10 state without equivocation the contents of the evening. That content is official. From the content declared, we can work backwards to determine the version in which the content occurred.

As I’ve stated before, SE never states that HA HW scene is canon. The only thing stated as canon by SE is that the HW scene has optional versions – which means that neither version is canon.

No, Anastar, it does not mean anything of the sort. And further more, they have said what actually happens that night and THAT, the events details on the FTOIL page, are what CANONICALLY happen.

Furthermore, there is no action taken or word spoken in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm which version of the HW scene actually happened.

There does not need to be. This is an asinine standard you have adopted simply to allow yourself to ignore that mutual confirmation of romantic feelings is declared as happening that evening.

As far as whether it’s the HW scene alone which proves who Cloud loves, I believe that was the assertion of the TLS article about the FTOIL page:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

According to that article, it’s the picture of the HW scene on the FTOIL page that makes you think Cloud loves Tifa.

Holy fuck, either you're lying again OR YOU CAN'T READ.

As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads

The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.

The italicised is everything I said about the picture- the scene is worthy of inclusion on a page about love. But note, also, Anastar, the bolded, which is where I speak about the actual texts and what THAT tells us.

Unfortunately, the article ignores the fact that the HW scene is labeled as optional. The article even states below the picture of the Clerith date scene that any scene under player control does not have an official version. That would mean that the HW scene has no official version.

It does not state that, You are deliberately mangling my words despite being told that is not what they mean. Hell, I'm pretty sure no casual observer would conclude- even from my loose phrasing- that I was asserting that NO player controlled scene could be officialized.

Anastar, I AM TELLING YOU what I said there.
If you continue to say that I said something else, then you will only prove you are a dishonest lying scumbag only interested in winning and not the truth. So, for once, Annie, rise to the fucking occasion and read my response and adjust your behavior accordingly.

If you’re mean to both Aerith and Tifa, then Cloud loves neither girl romantically.

But you don't have the option to be 'mean' to Tifa. Hell, one of the options that reduces her AV is being WORRIED about her. Another is being COMPLIMENTARY.

That’s why I say it’s left open to interpretation who Cloud loves. Yuffie is not a member of the Love Triangle, so it’s not possible for Cloud to love Yuffie. The only girls stated to be love rivals by SE and stated to be in the Love Triangle with Cloud are Aerith and Tifa.

You want to have it both ways. You want the AV to influence the Narrative, but the AV only counts because of what the narrative tells us, so you can discount Yuffie and Barret.

In that case, I’d say that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa. As far as what you believe to be the canon way it happened, where does SE say that? As you yourself said, it’s only your opinion.

And what of the Yuffie date and the High versions?

The Tifa date and the Low? Your proposal makes no sense in that scenario. He chooses Tifa because he loves her, he just doesn't love her an arbitrary enough?

True – so that means we’re on equal footing. Your opinion hasn’t been validated by SE and neither has mine.

Our position has EVIDENCE. And LOGIC. Try them some time! Not for this position, but other things.

You didn’t answer my question. Why do I need a quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is optional when you have no quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is static?

Because you wish to assert that it IS optional and player controlled.
And we do have a quote- quotes, even- which indicate it's static.

Which means that it’s your opinion.

No, thinking something doesn't make it an opinion.

It doesn’t prove that there IS a canon version of events, either.

No, that's us being told the events that happened that evening that proves that.
And I'll also echo Tres, that was a complete non sequitor jab instead of an actual reply.

And how does loving her as a child (actually, a dim crush on her according to SE) prove that he loves her as an adult?

No, NOT according to SE. It's YOU who insists it's a Crush, not a love.

And where does Cloud say that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? What he actually says is that what he means is kind of different. He said nothing about living with her, so why do you think he means that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? Why do you think it means that he’s meant to live with Tifa when he doesn’t say that?

It sounds to me like he’s saying that he’ll be okay because he has Tifa with him. That could mean in a platonic sense – there’s nothing definitely romantic about it. If there was anything romantic about it, why doesn’t Tifa take it that way? Why doesn’t he kiss her or something to show that it’s romantic? You’re merely interpreting this in a certain way – there’s nothing definite here.

This is after Aerith and Zack told Cloud that it wasn’t his time to die yet. So when it says he realizes where he is meant to live (like Aerith and Zack told him), then it means that’s the location he’s supposed to live in.

“His family were waiting” – Tifa said in CoT that the family is made up of friends, and that is reinforced in the Reunion Files:

When Cloud regains consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone. ~Reunion Files, pg. 119[/quote]

That second quote has jack fuck all to do with the Family of friends quote, and the U10 story playback does have Cloud DECLARE THE MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY.
Please note- ANASTAR IS IGNORING PORTIONS OF A QUOTE SHE USES (incorrectly) IN FAVOR OF ONE OF HER ARGUMENTS BECAUSE IT DESTROYS ANOTHER ARGUMENT SHE WISHES TO MAKE.

It says nothing about his family watching over him – just his friends and the orphans. That means his family are his friends.

No it does not. That is a leap so tall not even Superman would make it.

Then it refers to Aerith and Zack. After that, it says that Cloud’s no longer alone. So according to this, Cloud is no longer alone because of his friends, the orphans, Aerith, and Zack. To me, that means he was alone before AC/ACC while he was living with his “family”.

Cloud was alone because HE MADE HIMSELF ALONE. He's now not alone because HE'S LETTING PEOPLE IN, not because two dead people just showed up.

How does being together in the same location prove that they are romantically involved? Rufus and Rude are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved? Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved?

Do they BELONG together? No? Then your false analogy is just that, FALSE.

And a new novella where Cloud says that Barret’s part of the family, too.

No he doesn't, Anastar, please stop making shit up, it only makes you look like a fool.

Tifa said the family is made up of friends. The family existed before Cloud was invited into it, and Marlene invited Cloud into the family.

The family is the family that Cloud and Tifa were forming, so, no, that's not how it worked. Marlene's offer was a gesture of good will, not an actual bringing of Cloud into the family HE formed.

Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him - so if anything Denzel is actually the “child” of Aerith and Cloud, not Cloud and Tifa. Marlene is really Barret’s child (actually Dyne’s), not Cloud and Tifa’s.

Denzel sees Cloud and Tifa as his parents. His biological parents are modeled after C and T. Tifa was explicitly given a mannerism in ACC that his mother displays in the animated Episode Denzel. So no, Denzel is very much Cloud and Tifa's adopted child.

Oh, and Marlene? People think she's Cloud's daughter in the new novel before he corrects them.

It doesn’t say the “thoughts/feelings which each other was holding” for each other, and Cloud revealed feelings that he had when he got blamed for Tifa falling at the bridge and when he got excluded from Tifa’s group. Besides, I see nothing to indicate that this quote is talking about the Lifestream event. For all I know, It could be talking about the HW scene.

Anastar, you are blind. It literally SPECIFIES the lifestream event.
You're also ignoring that these are specified as Feelings Cloud was holding for Tifa.

And I discussed that quote above.

Where?

Where does it say he blushed? There’s nothing about him blushing in the quote you gave me above.

The blushing is another scene, shortly after that one. He smiles in the 'different way' Cloud's HAPPY he has Tifa.
Have you ever read Episode Tifa?

Well, you’re free to have that opinion. I just don’t share the same opinion, and I think I’ve explained in detail why I don’t think so in my responses above.

Shame you never give compelling reasons why anyone ELSE should hold the same view.

I meant to finish your post today, but this is all I have time for. I’ll try to finish the rest of your post tomorrow.

Anastar, your last post was what, like two weeks ago?
This isn't 'I can't keep up' territory. This is 'damned lazy' territory.

Oh, and Hito, Anastar's been looking to find the answer she wants for years and years now. You should remember that better than most, really.

JayM · Jan 7, 2012

Hey, I'm on my phone so I can't do a long post, but I just wanted to throw out there: Aly asked me about 想 いを通わせる too, over PM. You'll notice I'm not mentioned.

Since my modus operandi from the beginning has been to give people the benefit of the doubt, and not get emotionally involved in any of this, I'm going to say maybe it is because she considers the Japanese expert's opinion to be more relevant than mine (which is totally valid!) but I'm honestly a little peeved that there wasn't even a "not everyone agreed" or an implication that she got different answers.

Because, yeah, I said it was romantic. And that it was connected to their decision to live together, too.

Mrr. *is (temporarily) a Slightly Angrier Lesbian*

Strangelove · Jan 7, 2012

And again with 'fan translations'.

It's good to know that the only way you could ~possibly ever~ know a foreign language is if you're on Square Enix's payroll! As if the only thing that gives you knowledge and the possibility of being right is the job title of 'translator/game localizer'.

Technically, unless you actually know the original language, how do you even know the official translations are correct? How does anyone know anything anymore?

Not that say that you have to take the word of fans, who are as capable of making errors (if not more so at times, given the lack of standards you need to be 'fan who knows [language]' compared with getting a job), over anyone else. You just have to look at the whole One Piece 'nakama' nonsense to see that fans saying something doesn't make it true.

But it's just. The majority of the sources have said it was romantic. Even ones that aren't fans.

idk man

Danseru-kun · Jan 7, 2012

Others had already posted enough. So this is mine.

Chantara said:
Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance, but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story

What the creators say is official no matter how you don't see it in the story. If they said, Sephiroth loves kittens, he loves them even if you don't see it. The only problem if it's contradictory, for example they said that Zack was 6'3 but he was not. EDIT. You need to prove that Cloud loving Tifa contradicts the compilation through official statements, not by interpretation. As I see it, Cloud being stated to confirm romantic feelings with Tifa compliments the compilation.

Some say that CoT and AC proves that the relationship is dysfunctional. I say no. All I say is that love is not sugar and rainbows, especially when you're living together. Also Aerith being more compatible with Cloud as many claim will not make him love her better than who he chooses to love.

Now, kobito is officially translated as “sweetheart” by SE in the quote about Tifa in the Reunion Files, but the word is still koibito. Besides, “sweetheart” doesn’t automatically mean mutual love, does it?

She's someone's sweetheart. And that is Cloud. This is never Johnny because:

Yuffie is not a member of the Love Triangle, so it’s not possible for Cloud to love Yuffie. The only girls stated to be love rivals by SE and stated to be in the Love Triangle with Cloud are Aerith and Tifa.

If you take this stance why do you include Johnny and say that he's the one who considers Tifa as a sweetheart in RF? He's not part of the love triangle :awesome:

.

Zealkin · Jan 7, 2012

Anastar, when I first looked at this thread (or just the LTD in general) I wondered why it wasn't over with, or why people kept arguing. Ryu and a few other mentioned fallacies, but I didn't have experience with them, so i decided to look them up today. I found quite a few that are in relations to the arguments made, and I just want to address them to you before we go on.

Ad ignorantiam
The argument from ignorance basically states that a specific belief is true because we don’t know that it isn’t true. Defenders of extrasensory perception, for example, will often overemphasize how much we do not know about the human brain. It is therefore possible, they argue, that the brain may be capable of transmitting signals at a distance.

In order to make a positive claim, however, positive evidence for the specific claim must be presented. The absence of another explanation only means that we do not know – it doesn’t mean we get to make up a specific explanation.

EX: When you constantly state- "We don't have evidence that so and so did not happen"

Confusing currently unexplained with unexplainable
Because we do not currently have an adequate explanation for a phenomenon does not mean that it is forever unexplainable, or that it therefore defies the laws of nature or requires a paranormal explanation. An example of this is the "God of the Gapsa" strategy of creationists that whatever we cannot currently explain is unexplainable and was therefore an act of god.

EX: This relates more to your perspective more than mine, but you insist that the LTD is not over and that there is no adequate explanation for it to be over. As the compilation has continued we have received information, it's not forever unexplainable.

False Continuum
The idea that because there is no definitive demarcation line between two extremes, that the distinction between the extremes is not real or meaningful: There is a fuzzy line between cults and religion, therefore they are really the same thing.

EX: Two extremes- Having Romantic disinterest(Low affection Scene)= Cloud was in Love with Aerith

False Dichotomy
Arbitrarily reducing a set of many possibilities to only two. For example, evolution is not possible, therefore we must have been created (assumes these are the only two possibilities). This fallacy can also be used to oversimplify a continuum of variation to two black and white choices. For example, science and pseudoscience are not two discrete entities, but rather the methods and claims of all those who attempt to explain reality fall along a continuum from one extreme to the other.

EX: Even though there are a variety of different scenarios for the Date scenes and the Highwind scene, you refuse to see anyone else involved except Cloud, Tifa and Aerith, even while continuing to use the Date mechanics that can support all four characters.

Inconsistency
Applying criteria or rules to one belief, claim, argument, or position but not to others. For example, some consumer advocates argue that we need stronger regulation of prescription drugs to ensure their safety and effectiveness, but at the same time argue that medicinal herbs should be sold with no regulation for either safety or effectiveness.
EX: Koibito is mutual for Aerith, when it's in first person and she's talking about herself, but not mutual for Tifa when it's from the creators own words.

No True Scotsman
This fallacy is a form of circular reasoning, in that it attempts to include a conclusion about something in the very definition of the word itself. It is therefore also a semantic argument.

The term comes from the example: If Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave, and you provide a counter example of a Scotsman who is clearly a coward, Ian might respond, "Well, then, he's no true Scotsman." In essence Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave by including bravery in the definition of what it is to be a Scotsman. This argument does not establish and facts or new information, and is limited to Ian's definition of the word, "Scotsman."

EX: According to you Cloud and Tifa don't act like a couple, and you don't see them as having communicated mutual feelings. Therefore they are not a couple.

Non-Sequitur
In Latin this term translates to "doesn't follow". This refers to an argument in which the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises. In other words, a logical connection is implied where none exists.

EX: Tifa has complicated feelings towards Aerith= Tifa is jealous.

Post-hoc ergo propter hoc
This fallacy follows the basic format of: A preceded B, therefore A caused B, and therefore assumes cause and effect for two events just because they are temporally related (the latin translates to "after this, therefore because of this").

EX: Cloud was alone before, after advent Children he's not alone therefore he was alone when with Tifa...

Special pleading, or ad-hoc reasoning
This is a subtle fallacy which is often difficult to recognize. In essence, it is the arbitrary introduction of new elements into an argument in order to fix them so that they appear valid. A good example of this is the ad-hoc dismissal of negative test results. For example, one might point out that ESP has never been demonstrated under adequate test conditions, therefore ESP is not a genuine phenomenon. Defenders of ESP have attempted to counter this argument by introducing the arbitrary premise that ESP does not work in the presence of skeptics. This fallacy is often taken to ridiculous extremes, and more and more bizarre ad hoc elements are added to explain experimental failures or logical inconsistencies.

EX: Translations, they go against your favor, you state that fan translations are unreliable to begin with.

Straw Man
A straw man argument attempts to counter a position by attacking a different position – usually one that is easier to counter. The arguer invents a caricature of his opponent’s position – a “straw man” – that is easily refuted, but not the position that his opponent actually holds.

For example, defenders of alternative medicine often argue that skeptics refuse to accept their claims because they conflict with their world-view. If “Western” science cannot explain how a treatment works, then it is dismissed out-of-hand. If you read skeptical treatment of so-called “alternative” modalities, however, you will find the skeptical position much more nuanced than that.

EX: Somehow along the way, you seemed to think that I or someone else thought that Cloud didn't support or care about Aerith?

The Moving Goalpost
A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for “proof” or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. If new evidence comes to light meeting the prior criteria, the goalpost is pushed back further – keeping it out of range of the new evidence. Sometimes impossible criteria are set up at the start – moving the goalpost impossibly out of range -for the purpose of denying an undesirable conclusion.

EX: Anything that has to do with the Highwind scene or translations.

Tu quoque
Literally, you too. This is an attempt to justify wrong action because someone else also does it. "My evidence may be invalid, but so is yours."

EX: "That's just your opinion"

Slippery Slope
This logical fallacy is the argument that a position is not consistent or tenable because accepting the position means that the extreme of the position must also be accepted. But moderate positions do not necessarily lead down the slippery slope to the extreme.

EX: Either fan translations or official.

We can't really keep going on like this, we're literally getting no where. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just asking if you could please try to cut out the fallacies, they make it hard for others to be civil here and make it hard for me to understand where you're coming from with all of this.

Ryushikaze · Jan 7, 2012

They also make me turn into a raving seventeen foot tall engine of unrelenting destruction.

And you didn't even name all of her committed fallacies and bad argumentative practices.

Jaym's contribution being omitted gives us a prime example of Cherry Picking. There's quote mining- not strictly speaking a fallacy, but I feel it's related enough to Cherry picking to warrant both its inclusion and its distinction.

But yeah, Anastar's arguments are basically giant bundles of fallacious reasoning. And have been for quite some time.

Dashell · Jan 7, 2012

Serah's Cat said:
Are we seriously going to go around asking the same questions over and over again until someone gives an answer we like? Because that's what this seems to be with 想いを通わせる.

http://www.italki.com/answers/question/124547.htm

$50 says that's Cali again. :monster:

Agent P

First of all, some more on your argument about the phrase 想いを通わせる proving that the High Affection HW scene is the phrase being talked about in the seven quotes you posted. I decided to ask the expert you spoke to at allexperts.com about whether or not the phrase 想いを通わせる is romantic.

In my question, I asked whether it could be determined by the sentence alone whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, or whether the context of the story needed to be referenced in order to decide whether or not they were romantically involved. This is his reply:

http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m...20&qID=5004875

He says that he would rely on the context of the story to determine whether or not they’re romantically involved instead of using the sentence alone.

Since the context of the Compilation does not hold any conclusive answer about whether Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is romantic or platonic, the context of the story is inconclusive. Different people arrive at a different answer to the LT on the context of the story. Since there is no conclusive answer in the context of the story, then this sentence alone cannot answer the question conclusively.

Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance, but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story. Dreamstar plans to post about what her friend said, so I’ll let her go into more detail about it.

By the way, I am still waiting on a reply from someone who was unavailable over the holidays, so I may have more to say about the phrase 想いを通わせる in the near future.

First of all, just to get it out there, I don't take issue with you writing to the same expert I wrote to, (in fact I expected you to )but I do take issue with you giving him information based on your opinion. I didn't say anything of the sort to him but you sorta lead him on to say what you wanted him to say. (more on this below)

Although tbh, maybe it doesn't matter because I think his answer would have been the same. You always need context, and I never denied that. This phrase is while it's usually used for romance, but also "that phrase wouldn't be used to describe a conversation that's said to be lacking or apathetic."

And not only that, but you didn't inform us about JayM's response. Notice how the Japanese native I spoke to on japanforums.com didn't agree right off the bat that the phrase was romantic, but I still mentioned her and came to a conclusion based on ALL the evidence I gathered? You ignored her and I don't think that's how this should be played.

Come on Anastar, I expect more from you. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but what would you think if I had written to all experts.com and said, "Hey is this phrase romantic? BTW these two have sex and raise children and live together!"... OF COURSE he's going to say it's romantic. And would you take his reply seriously? No, you'd shove it back in my face and say, "That's your opinion and you gave him the answer you wanted." and I'd completely expect you to do that, too.

Same thing if you tell him, "The story isn't romantic for those two at all." OF COURSE he's going to say look at the context. This makes it seem like you're not really interested in the truth but interested in winning.

Also what if you found out I had asked Hito about the phrase and he said, "No, you can't assume that's romantic. It is sometimes but it's rare!" but didn't tell you about that and just gave you the all experts guy whom I specifically told was romantic? See what I mean here? I managed to ask people questions without context or giving away any of the story and I got my answers, you should try to do the same.

Since you're so focused on the romantic part though, (keep in mind I understand that 想いを通わせる CAN be used for other things but it's primarily romantic. This has been the overwhelming response both you AND I have received, from allexperts.com, and from people here and your own forum. ) Let me present you with this.

If I may repeat something Tres said here cause he said it so darn well:

Could I, technically, say -- in English, mind you -- that Johnny and Jane "realized their feelings for each other" while referring to the fact that they realized they don't like being friends and aren't going to see each other anymore? Sure, I technically could, but the average person is going to find that a poor -- and potentially misleading -- choice of phrasing.

If I say that Johnny and Jane realized their feelings for each other without saying anything else, the average person will take that to mean they fell in love with each other. That is such a prevailing understanding of that choice of phrasing that it has no other connotation.

That's basically what we're dealing with here with the Japanese phrasing about "communicated their feelings" (with that specific form of "omoi"). Could you use it another way? Technically. Would you? Not likely.

You also have to take into consideration that the same phrase was used for romance for Celes and Locke. Why would square used it for romance for them but not for another pairing? Or does it mean something else with them? Why would they use a phrase that's primarily romantic to Cloud and Tifa if they really wanted it to be ambiguous? Please answer these questions and take into account everything you've been told about the phrase and not just focus on the one person who told you it isn't always romantic. Then I would like you to respond to how such a phrase that's used for feelings such as love and understanding could be used to describe a conversation (yes a conversation not a scene, or the characters) that's described to be apathetic. Keeping in mind that the "candid" translation is NOT honest and that it simply means lacking.

And, please do not provide a made up scene for me unless you have proof that it exists.

Okay, but like I said before – we’ve asked the translator for the scan, but she never provided it. I simply can’t speak for the translator in order to explain why she translated it the way she did. All I can do is ask her again if and when I hear from her.

It’s possible, for example, that she may have written down the wrong page number so you’re looking at a different page. I’ve no idea.

Well lemme know what you find out then.

Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re getting at here when you say to pick a constant stance on the fan translations. I’ve been using the official English translations from the Reunion Files.

You're using the "engraved in Cloud's heart" translation which is NOT the official translation from the DoC manual. That's what I mean. I'm not discussing the K word with you or anyone. I'm sick of it :monster:

However, I don’t see what using fan translations has to do with the meaning of “engraved in the heart” vs. “etched in his memory”. We’re both using the only translations we have available, and we’re using the same translation.

But you're NOT using the translations you have available. You're ignoring the official translation which simply says she's someone Cloud will never forget (which is actually what the idiom means)

What I actually said about using fan translations is that we can’t always know for sure that they are correct. I think that’s a good thing to keep in mind, since not all TLS translations have corresponded to the translations provided by SE. That doesn’t mean all fan translations are wrong, nor does it mean that all fan translations are correct. It means we need to be aware that SE sometimes translates differently than TLS anticipates.

Uhm... examples?

I’ve asked you and Zealkin and others the same question about what you say the FTOIL page is saying. I am willing to admit that what I say is opinion, but are you willing to admit that what you say is opinion?

I believe I remember telling you and others about the "Dust Hill Zone" story that took place in the Sonic community where the overwhelming amount of evidence that pointed in one direction, but the answer turned out to be in the opposite direction. What I'm willing to say is this could be another case of that, but that's as far as I'll go. My stance on this is based on all the evidence put together. I didn't just guess here.

Also can you please highlight on the FTOIL page where this deviation is listed? I don't see it. You obviously have the picture, so can you please circle it or something?

I’ve already explained that. It’s right here:

Since page 232 is about the scene deviations, then the page number is as good as actually writing the word. Writing the page number just allows SE to discuss the deviation in more detail.

Click to expand...

What you seem to be saying is that the "deviation" listed is actually on page 232 correct? Does other information from page 232 apply or is it just the deviation? What about all the other page numbers listed on the FTOIL page? Do they count as well?

The options may stop at the end of Disk One, but the result of “wavering” still affects what version of the HW scene you get. Therefore, whatever “decision” was made by the options is still effective in Disk Two.

Exactly, the RESULT is already decided by the end of Disc 1.

And having a canon ending for Shadow doesn’t prove that there’s a canon ending for the HW scene. After all, even the “LTD is Over” article says that any scene under player control does not have an official version:

Source: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...9/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/

Since the HW scene is under player control, then there is no official version according to that article.

Anastar, both Ryu AND Tres have already explained to you that the article was written quickly and thus, worded poorly and that's not what it's saying. They even offered to change it for you to be more clear. Once again, the article is merely reporting that the book itself emphasizes the scene is up to player control. "No one version is made official here." is what it's saying. Why do you keep bringing this up when they've explained it to you?

Actually, you didn’t answer my question.

You didn't ask one O_o

What I said is that both the 20th AU and the FFVII UO state that the deviations exist. If SE says that the optional versions exist, then SE doesn’t consider either version to be canon. If neither version is canon, then who Cloud loves is optional.

You agree with me that optional scenes can have a canon outcome. Every time the HW scene gets brought up you base your argument around "There's deviations" as if any scene with a deviations can't have a canon outcome. This is what so many people are taking issue with. You have more arguments about the HW scene not having a canon outcome, right? Why not use some of those?

According to that article, it’s the picture of the HW scene on the FTOIL page that makes you think Cloud loves Tifa.

First of all, I've told you many times that that's a small piece of the puzzle and there's the entire Compilation as a whole that makes me think that. Second of all, where do you see that it's only the picture that says that? The article said it was the text. Aren't you usually the one saying that both PICTURES are there so both pairings are valid? That doesn't mean everyone only look at the pictures.

If you’re mean to both Aerith and Tifa,

You can be mean to Tifa?

Yuffie is not a member of the Love Triangle, so it’s not possible for Cloud to love Yuffie. The only girls stated to be love rivals by SE and stated to be in the Love Triangle with Cloud are Aerith and Tifa.

Okay so first the in-game date mechanic reflects the narrative, then the narrative overrides the mechanic.. please make up your mind about this.

So what if you get Yuffie on the date, then get the High Affection scene? What if you get Aerith, then the High Affection scene?

Hell, what if you get Tifa on the date, then get the Low Affection scene? All of these things can be done.

In that case, I’d say that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa.

But where does Square say this? You aren't answering for them are you?

As far as what you believe to be the canon way it happened, where does SE say that? As you yourself said, it’s only your opinion.

TBH, I think constantly prioritizing one scene over the other in story summaries is them trying to tell us something.

True – so that means we’re on equal footing. Your opinion hasn’t been validated by SE and neither has mine.

No we're not on ... okay never mind

You didn’t answer my question. Why do I need a quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is optional when you have no quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is static?

I have many. You keep overlooking them and trying to debunk them one at a time instead of looking at them as a whole.

It doesn’t prove that there IS a canon version of events, either.

...

And how does loving her as a child (actually, a dim crush on her according to SE) prove that he loves her as an adult?

Can you provide the quote that says "Dim crush" please? I'm looking for those exact words, "dim crush." DO you have a quote that says dim crush?

And where does Cloud say that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? What he actually says is that what he means is kind of different. He said nothing about living with her, so why do you think he means that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? Why do you think it means that he’s meant to live with Tifa when he doesn’t say that?

If you follow the conversation he says "Because I have you this time" to which she says, "You've always had me" and he says, "What I mean is kind of different."... he means something different by having her this time than he did before...ergo he has her in a way that's different than before.

It sounds to me like he’s saying that he’ll be okay because he has Tifa with him.

But he always had her. Tifa herself says this and Cloud answer with "What I mean is different."

If there was anything romantic about it, why doesn’t Tifa take it that way?

It doesn't say she DIDN'T take it as romantic.... kinda annoying isn't it? :monster:

And how do you know how she took it though? The scene stops there.

This is after Aerith and Zack told Cloud that it wasn’t his time to die yet. So when it says he realizes where he is meant to live (like Aerith and Zack told him), then it means that’s the location he’s supposed to live in.

“His family were waiting” – Tifa said in CoT that the family is made up of friends, and that is reinforced in the Reunion Files:

When Cloud regains consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone. ~Reunion Files, pg. 119

It says nothing about his family watching over him – just his friends and the orphans. That means his family are his friends. Then it refers to Aerith and Zack. After that, it says that Cloud’s no longer alone. So according to this, Cloud is no longer alone because of his friends, the orphans, Aerith, and Zack. To me, that means he was alone before AC/ACC while he was living with his “family”

Okay I discussed the "family of friends" thing in my previous post so I'll leave that. As for the rest of it...

Okay so... he's supposed to live in the church? Why doesn't he?... also I don't get why the Reunion Files quote is being used... that one doesn't mention the family so... that cancels out the other one where the family is listed? How does that work exactly? Cloud's friends and family are differentiated in the quote from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and his family is listed as Tifa, Marlene and Denzel:

(Scan and translation by hitoshura;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/cloudpl.jpg)

"The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he
realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive
himself.

And when he turns around--- 'she' is starting to leave. Together with the
friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in
loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---."

How does being together in the same location prove that they are romantically involved?

It doesn't. Read what I wrote. Please answer: Why was it so important to Nojima that Cloud and Tifa would be living together in the same location?

Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved?

You don't wanna go there with me :awesome:

And a new novella where Cloud says that Barret’s part of the family, too.

no
He's explaining to Evan that he isn't Marlene's biological father but they're still family. He says "We're the same as you" when Tifa, Denzel, Marlene and himself are standing in front of another family just like his.

Tifa said the family is made up of friends. The family existed before Cloud was invited into it, and Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him - so if anything Denzel is actually the “child” of Aerith and Cloud, not Cloud and Tifa. Marlene is really Barret’s child (actually Dyne’s), not Cloud and Tifa’s.

Then why does the 10th AU say that Denzel is Cloud and Tifa's and that Denzel sees them like parents? And why is Tifa in ACC is given mannerisms similar to Denzel's mom in CoD Animated.

Such as this hand holding. Granted it's not 100% the same, it's pretty close. Using both hands and such. And the fact that this comes right after a scene of Denzel remembering his parents makes me think they were trying to make a parallel here.

We have been over all of these quotes before. So why are we going over them again?

To make the point that when you don't pick them apart one at a time, they paint a picture.

At any rate, as I’ve said before, this passage is only talking about the feelings Cloud had for Tifa as a kid. It’s not saying that he has feelings for her now.

So... what about the one that says they became aware of the feelings each other was holding?... that one's just past feelings too? Are Tifa's feelings also just in the past?

It doesn’t say the “thoughts/feelings which each other was holding” for each other, and Cloud revealed feelings that he had when he got blamed for Tifa falling at the bridge and when he got excluded from Tifa’s group.

What about Tifa's feelings then? What past feelings did she reveal since it's just past ones?

Besides, I see nothing to indicate that this quote is talking about the Lifestream event. For all I know, It could be talking about the HW scene.

It's... the first line of the quote...

Where does it say he blushed? There’s nothing about him blushing in the quote you gave me above.

I was too lazy to look up when Cloud blushed in the story but yeah... when he does blush in the story (I think after he says he'll be there to remind Tifa of how strong she is) he's just embarrassed?

Well, you’re free to have that opinion. I just don’t share the same opinion, and I think I’ve explained in detail why I don’t think so in my responses above.

Honestly, I'd like to think in another story arc you'd feel the same way too.

EDIT
I just realized that it looked like I royally contradicted myself because I combined two posts... fixed

EDIT II
I gotta stop doing this a day later but I added a couple things.

Edley · Jan 7, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnJiv7S7J6M#t=00m12s

Not meant to be spam. It's just how I've always felt about the LTD. There isn't anything wrong with liking CloudxAerith or any pairing you like for that matter. It's just within the context of the compilation and especially VII proper, she's not around to develop a relationship with Cloud. How or when his relationship with Tifa evolves seems somewhat secondary to the fact that it does evolve. Aerith and Cloud don't get that chance.

Dashell · Jan 9, 2012

I was going to just edit this into my old post but I think it's worth pointing out so that everyone can see it. Ryu and Tres were the ones who brought this to my attention but on the whole "Cloud and Aerith are Denzel's parents."... well besides the fact that the U10 says otherwise, Tifa in ACC is given mannerisms similar to Denzel's mom in CoD Animated.

Such as this hand holding. Granted it's not 100% the same, it's pretty close. Using both hands and such. And the fact that this comes right after a scene of Denzel remembering his parents makes me think they were trying to make a parallel here.

The Twilight Mexican · Jan 9, 2012

Quexinos said:
And the fact that this comes right after a scene of Denzel remembering his parents makes me think they were trying to make a parallel here.

More than that, it comes right after Denzel recalls the destruction of Sector 7. His mother had held his hand like that literally the last time he saw her, before she died in that catastrophe.

Ryushikaze · Jan 9, 2012

It's also not the only deliberate parallel the movie stuck in between the two pairs. His old family photo sits next to his new family photo on the dresser by his bed next to the wooden Chocobo.
His flashback to Cloud finding him also contains a shot of the family photo, as he tries- and oddly, succeeds- to call his old house in Sector 7.

Octo · Jan 9, 2012

As much as I appreciate the parallels that SE (rather clumsily) put between Cloud and Tifa and Denzel's parents, I feel like its kind of flimsy to use as any evidence, don't get me wrong, I know where people are coming from here but I just thought if someone on the CXA side did something like that (which has happened) we'd be looking at that as secondary evidence. I can't say for sure if the hand holding thing was deliberate, I mean a mother figure holding someones hands? Thats not some sort of unique weird thing that only Denzels mom used to do is it?

I'm not trying to piss on anyones bonfire here, I can't help feeling we're getting further and further away from the real issues here. Pages and pages back Quex asked for quotes proving that Cloud definitely had/has romantic intentions towards Aerith and nothing really came of that. :sadpanda:

I'd rather come back to the issue of proving if Cloud ever had romantic feelings towards Aerith, because really who Denzel(or Marlene) see's as his parents proves nothing.

Ryushikaze · Jan 9, 2012

Octo said:
As much as I appreciate the parallels that SE (rather clumsily) put between Cloud and Tifa and Denzel's parents, I feel like its kind of flimsy to use as any evidence, don't get me wrong, I know where people are coming from here but I just thought if someone on the CXA side did something like that (which has happened) we'd be looking at that as secondary evidence. I can't say for sure if the hand holding thing was deliberate, I mean a mother figure holding someones hands? Thats not some sort of unique weird thing that only Denzels mom used to do is it?

No. But Denzel's mom and Tifa are currently the only people to do it in the compilation, and Tifa's grasping follows a flashback to the same incident in which Denzel lost his mother, right after the last time she ever held his hand.
It's not 'Only these two people ever did it' but 'Square Enix, when making this new animated episode and making Complete, made several deliberate choices to thematically link Denzel's biological parents to Cloud and Tifa,' and this mannerism was one such deliberate addition to reinforce the idea that she is very much his new mom.
ADDENDUM: And not just 'he sees them as his parents,' but they ACT as his parents, too, which is a point that meshes well in the bigger picture.

I'm not trying to piss on anyones bonfire here, I can't help feeling we're getting further and further away from the real issues here. Pages and pages back Quex asked for quotes proving that Cloud definitely had/has romantic intentions towards Aerith and nothing really came of that.

You might as well consider the lack of quotes provided your answer.

I'd rather come back to the issue of proving if Cloud ever had romantic feelings towards Aerith, because really who Denzel(or Marlene) see's as his parents proves nothing.

True enough, but it is related to a repeated deliberate ignoring of the status of affairs used to 'disprove' C/T, and it's irritating that people still try and argue for it despite it being roundly disproven.

That said, I would also like a return to the first principles of the issue, I'm just not holding my breath waiting for it.

Octo · Jan 9, 2012

Ishtar said:
You might as well consider the lack of quotes provided your answer.

I do

This is the point, we ask for evidence and we don't get it, and then sidetracking happens which allows the debate to perpetuate. I'm sorry to say it but I really think there should be a refusal here to progress if requested evidence isn't presented. Even if that means this place doesn't see any action ever again :monster:

The Twilight Mexican · Jan 9, 2012

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments in your most recent post, Octo, but I do want to make one final point about the hand-holding. In both cases, someone had to consciously choose to frame things the way they did.

That's what makes it significant, while it wouldn't be in the real world. Granted, a bad filmmaker may include or allow for a number of things to enter the frame that they haven't given any consideration to, but if we're going to analyze it at all, we have to give the benefit of the doubt that the framing of content is calculated.

Furthermore, in this case, the camera switches to Denzel's perspective and focuses on Tifa's hand holding his, just as the camera in Episode Denzel switched perspectives to focus on his mother holding his hand. Our attention is being deliberately called to this for a reason -- like certain shots of parallel framing involving Agents Brand and Hunt in the
new "Mission: Impossible" movie.

This is cinematic language, so we're being asked to make these connections.

Octo · Jan 9, 2012

Oh I totally understand that, its just that I can almost predict what the response will be, that either we can't rely on that 'interpretation' or that 'how come Clotis say that can be used as evidence when 'X' scene is discounted' Y'know? Stuff like that :monster:

Then we end up going down that merry road again.

Danseru-kun · Jan 9, 2012

I think the point of the hand holding scene argument anyway is to show that Denzel's see Tifa as his mom. Many anti C/T say that Aerith is Denzel's mom but there is no evidence for that.

Vendel · Jan 9, 2012

Octo said:
Oh I totally understand that, its just that I can almost predict what the response will be, that either we can't rely on that 'interpretation' or that 'how come Clotis say that can be used as evidence when 'X' scene is discounted' Y'know? Stuff like that

Then we end up going down that merry road again.

Oh I don't know. I think it might be ~~hilarious~~ educational to go the symbolism road. That way we can compare the hand holding to, oh for example, the koi fish of love.

As an aside, it was nice to see Anastar give us a perfect example of "Death of the Author" when quoting Ryu on the LTD article. "Just because you wrote it, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what it's about?"

JayM · Jan 10, 2012

(Posting from phone again, so apologies for brevity.)

For what it's worth, I DO think there's a valid...I don't want to say Clerith, in keeping with my belief that disproving one doesn't prove the other. But there's certainly an anti-CloTi (at least within the timeframe of ACC) argument to be made using cinematic intent. Hearkens back a few pages to when we were arguing about whether Cloud and Tifa slept together.

Now, I'm speaking as someone who's been in the same romantic relationship for ten years. GF and I have separate bedrooms (AND I have my own office, complete with yet another bed :monster:

). So I'm well-aware that in real life, offices and bedroom arrangements and the like don't mean anything about relationship status.

However, in movies, showing the single bedroom is often shorthand for "romantically involved." showing anything else? Is usually the opposite.

So I do think it's a fair argument to say the movie keeps it ambiguous. It's not an argument I agree with, but made from the standpoint of cinematic intent I think it's a perfectly logical one.

Just my two cents.

Dashell · Jan 10, 2012

I think you're right JayM. Though Rob and I also have separate bedrooms. :monster:

I think the movie does leave it ambiguous because we don't see the master bedroom, however when you take into consideration the entire Compilation, it's pretty clear they're a couple and probably are sharing a bedroom. But I think it's kind of pointless to argue about.

As for the hand holding thing, I wouldn't use it as CxT proof. I'm just using it to show that Denzel thinks of Tifa as is mother is all. Although all I really need is the 10th AU calling him Cloud and Tifa's and Denzel seeing them as parents anyway :monster:

The Twilight Mexican · Jan 10, 2012

I can see how the first half or so of the movie could reasonably be read as keeping people guessing. If you go into it with no knowledge of interviews, Ultimanias and On the Way to a Smile, I can absolutely see a degree of ambiguity as being part of the cinematic intent.

At the same time, though, I think it's meant to become clear right around the time that Tifa lets into Cloud. At any rate, Nomura and Kitase did both say that the movie features answers about the relationship between those two, so the ambiguity must have been meant to clear up somewhere.

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