Anastar
undercover Clerith evangelist
Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.
[FONT="]Agent P
[/FONT]
[FONT="]First of all, some more on your argument about the phrase [/FONT]想いを通わせる proving that the High Affection HW scene is the phrase being talked about in the seven quotes you posted. I decided to ask the expert you spoke to at allexperts.com about whether or not the phrase 想いを通わせる is romantic.
In my question, I asked whether it could be determined by the sentence alone whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, or whether the context of the story needed to be referenced in order to decide whether or not they were romantically involved. This is his reply:
[FONT="]http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&expID=116720&qID=5004875[/FONT]
He says that he would rely on the context of the story to determine whether or not they’re romantically involved instead of using the sentence alone.
Since the context of the Compilation does not hold any conclusive answer about whether Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is romantic or platonic, the context of the story is inconclusive. Different people arrive at a different answer to the LT on the context of the story. Since there is no conclusive answer in the context of the story, then this sentence alone cannot answer the question conclusively.
Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance, but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story. Dreamstar plans to post about what her friend said, so I’ll let her go into more detail about it.
By the way, I am still waiting on a reply from someone who was unavailable over the holidays, so I may have more to say about the phrase 想いを通わせる in the near future.
It’s possible, for example, that she may have written down the wrong page number so you’re looking at a different page. I’ve no idea.
Are you talking about the meaning of the word koibito? Whether or not I use your meaning or Tres’s meaning or the meaning provided by Rygdea or the meaning provided by JayM, I’m still using a fan translation. From what I can see, the meaning of mutual affection is every bit as valid as one-sided affection for the word koibito. Even Google translate says that koibito means “lover”.
Now, kobito is officially translated as “sweetheart” by SE in the quote about Tifa in the Reunion Files, but the word is still koibito. Besides, “sweetheart” doesn’t automatically mean mutual love, does it?
However, I don’t see what using fan translations has to do with the meaning of “engraved in the heart” vs. “etched in his memory”. We’re both using the only translations we have available, and we’re using the same translation.
What I actually said about using fan translations is that we can’t always know for sure that they are correct. I think that’s a good thing to keep in mind, since not all TLS translations have corresponded to the translations provided by SE. That doesn’t mean all fan translations are wrong, nor does it mean that all fan translations are correct. It means we need to be aware that SE sometimes translates differently than TLS anticipates.
And I discussed the meaning of “engraved in the heart” in my previous post and provided examples.
Just because you think the evidence backs you up (in your opinion) doesn’t mean that SE agrees with you. Since SE has not stated a definite answer conclusively, then you shouldn’t presume to make decisions for SE.
Since page 232 is about the scene deviations, then the page number is as good as actually writing the word. Writing the page number just allows SE to discuss the deviation in more detail.
Given that there’s never been any confirmation by word or action in the Compilation after the HW scene of whether or not Cloud loves Tifa, then it looks to me as if it’s been left open to interpretation.
Source: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/
Since the HW scene is under player control, then there is no official version according to that article.
As I’ve stated before, SE never states that HA HW scene is canon. The only thing stated as canon by SE is that the HW scene has optional versions – which means that neither version is canon.
Furthermore, there is no action taken or word spoken in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm which version of the HW scene actually happened.
As far as whether it’s the HW scene alone which proves who Cloud loves, I believe that was the assertion of the TLS article about the FTOIL page:
http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/
According to that article, it’s the picture of the HW scene on the FTOIL page that makes you think Cloud loves Tifa. Unfortunately, the article ignores the fact that the HW scene is labeled as optional. The article even states below the picture of the Clerith date scene that any scene under player control does not have an official version. That would mean that the HW scene has no official version.
It sounds to me like he’s saying that he’ll be okay because he has Tifa with him. That could mean in a platonic sense – there’s nothing definitely romantic about it. If there was anything romantic about it, why doesn’t Tifa take it that way? Why doesn’t he kiss her or something to show that it’s romantic? You’re merely interpreting this in a certain way – there’s nothing definite here.
“His family were waiting” – Tifa said in CoT that the family is made up of friends, and that is reinforced in the Reunion Files:
When Cloud regains consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone. ~Reunion Files, pg. 119
It says nothing about his family watching over him – just his friends and the orphans. That means his family are his friends. Then it refers to Aerith and Zack. After that, it says that Cloud’s no longer alone. So according to this, Cloud is no longer alone because of his friends, the orphans, Aerith, and Zack. To me, that means he was alone before AC/ACC while he was living with his “family”.
Tifa said the family is made up of friends. The family existed before Cloud was invited into it, and Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him - so if anything Denzel is actually the “child” of Aerith and Cloud, not Cloud and Tifa. Marlene is really Barret’s child (actually Dyne’s), not Cloud and Tifa’s.
I meant to finish your post today, but this is all I have time for. I’ll try to finish the rest of your post tomorrow.
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can be interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.
[FONT="]Agent P
[/FONT]
[FONT="]First of all, some more on your argument about the phrase [/FONT]想いを通わせる proving that the High Affection HW scene is the phrase being talked about in the seven quotes you posted. I decided to ask the expert you spoke to at allexperts.com about whether or not the phrase 想いを通わせる is romantic.
In my question, I asked whether it could be determined by the sentence alone whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, or whether the context of the story needed to be referenced in order to decide whether or not they were romantically involved. This is his reply:
[FONT="]http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&expID=116720&qID=5004875[/FONT]
He says that he would rely on the context of the story to determine whether or not they’re romantically involved instead of using the sentence alone.
Since the context of the Compilation does not hold any conclusive answer about whether Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is romantic or platonic, the context of the story is inconclusive. Different people arrive at a different answer to the LT on the context of the story. Since there is no conclusive answer in the context of the story, then this sentence alone cannot answer the question conclusively.
Also, Dreamstar asked a Japanese friend of hers about the phrase 想いを通わせる, and her friend said basically the same thing. She says that the phrase 想いを通わせる does indicate romance, but she doesn’t see romance confirmed between Cloud and Tifa in the context of the story. Dreamstar plans to post about what her friend said, so I’ll let her go into more detail about it.
By the way, I am still waiting on a reply from someone who was unavailable over the holidays, so I may have more to say about the phrase 想いを通わせる in the near future.
Okay, but like I said before – we’ve asked the translator for the scan, but she never provided it. I simply can’t speak for the translator in order to explain why she translated it the way she did. All I can do is ask her again if and when I hear from her.Quex said:I have found this but I'm afraid it doesn't say what you thought it did.All I know is that the translation was given to us. People have asked for a scan of the page from the person who translated it, but the scan hasn’t been provided to us yet.
クラウドに好意を抱き、あっという間に親しい仲に。
She is fond of Cloud, and in no time at all they became close.
It's a caption in Aerith's profile, top right corner of page 29. 'Fond of' is the old standard for having (the foundations of) a romantic interest in someone. The 親しい仲 part might have been where they got 'something between them' from, I'm not sure.
It’s possible, for example, that she may have written down the wrong page number so you’re looking at a different page. I’ve no idea.
Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re getting at here when you say to pick a constant stance on the fan translations. I’ve been using the official English translations from the Reunion Files.Quex said:See above. And once again, the phrase is used for something that you don't forget. There isn't automatically romantic implications. And again, I've seen you use the official translation of the koibito quote in reunion files countless times and dismiss fan translations. Please pick a constant stance on whether or not fan translations should be used.But it’s not just like the Promise, since it’s said in Cloud’s profile that the Promise is etched in his memory, which implies something that he remembers like someone’s name or a definition or an email address. Being engraved in his heart is something that he has an emotional attachment to and that’s very meaningful to him.
Are you talking about the meaning of the word koibito? Whether or not I use your meaning or Tres’s meaning or the meaning provided by Rygdea or the meaning provided by JayM, I’m still using a fan translation. From what I can see, the meaning of mutual affection is every bit as valid as one-sided affection for the word koibito. Even Google translate says that koibito means “lover”.
Now, kobito is officially translated as “sweetheart” by SE in the quote about Tifa in the Reunion Files, but the word is still koibito. Besides, “sweetheart” doesn’t automatically mean mutual love, does it?
However, I don’t see what using fan translations has to do with the meaning of “engraved in the heart” vs. “etched in his memory”. We’re both using the only translations we have available, and we’re using the same translation.
What I actually said about using fan translations is that we can’t always know for sure that they are correct. I think that’s a good thing to keep in mind, since not all TLS translations have corresponded to the translations provided by SE. That doesn’t mean all fan translations are wrong, nor does it mean that all fan translations are correct. It means we need to be aware that SE sometimes translates differently than TLS anticipates.
And I discussed the meaning of “engraved in the heart” in my previous post and provided examples.
I’ve asked you and Zealkin and others the same question about what you say the FTOIL page is saying. I am willing to admit that what I say is opinion, but are you willing to admit that what you say is opinion?Quex said:Is what I bolded an opinion or a fact?Anastar said:A picture of the Clerith date labeled as optional and a picture of the HW scene labeled as optional under a title of “Love Between Heroes” on the FTOIL page IS a quote which shows that love between the two heroines is optional. That’s what the FTOIL page is saying.
Just because you think the evidence backs you up (in your opinion) doesn’t mean that SE agrees with you. Since SE has not stated a definite answer conclusively, then you shouldn’t presume to make decisions for SE.
I’ve already explained that. It’s right here:Quex said:Also can you please highlight on the FTOIL page where this deviation is listed? I don't see it. You obviously have the picture, so can you please circle it or something?
Since page 232 is about the scene deviations, then the page number is as good as actually writing the word. Writing the page number just allows SE to discuss the deviation in more detail.
The options may stop at the end of Disk One, but the result of “wavering” still affects what version of the HW scene you get. Therefore, whatever “decision” was made by the options is still effective in Disk Two.Quex said:No but you only have the option to waver in the beginning.So is the quote from Kitase about the hero wavering between the two heroines. Kitase never says that Cloud only wavers between the two heroines at the beginning of the game.
again
B. Once you stop "wavering" or your options go away, the choice has been made.
Given that there’s never been any confirmation by word or action in the Compilation after the HW scene of whether or not Cloud loves Tifa, then it looks to me as if it’s been left open to interpretation.
And having a canon ending for Shadow doesn’t prove that there’s a canon ending for the HW scene. After all, even the “LTD is Over” article says that any scene under player control does not have an official version:Quex said:A. This does not mean there isn't a canon outcome more than Shadow surviving in FF6 doesn't have a canon outcome
Source: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/
Since the HW scene is under player control, then there is no official version according to that article.
Actually, you didn’t answer my question. What I said is that both the 20th AU and the FFVII UO state that the deviations exist. If SE says that the optional versions exist, then SE doesn’t consider either version to be canon. If neither version is canon, then who Cloud loves is optional.Quex said:Is the Highwind scene the only thing that proves who Cloud loves?Another thing reinforcing the idea of love being optional are the statements in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO about there being two versions of the HW scene, one being low affection and one being high affection. The fact that there is a high affection and a low affection version in itself says that Cloud loving Tifa is optional, especially when there is nothing in the Compilation after the HW scene which conclusively shows that Cloud loves Tifa as more than a friend.
As I’ve stated before, SE never states that HA HW scene is canon. The only thing stated as canon by SE is that the HW scene has optional versions – which means that neither version is canon.
Furthermore, there is no action taken or word spoken in the Compilation after the HW scene to confirm which version of the HW scene actually happened.
As far as whether it’s the HW scene alone which proves who Cloud loves, I believe that was the assertion of the TLS article about the FTOIL page:
http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/
According to that article, it’s the picture of the HW scene on the FTOIL page that makes you think Cloud loves Tifa. Unfortunately, the article ignores the fact that the HW scene is labeled as optional. The article even states below the picture of the Clerith date scene that any scene under player control does not have an official version. That would mean that the HW scene has no official version.
If you’re mean to both Aerith and Tifa, then Cloud loves neither girl romantically. That’s why I say it’s left open to interpretation who Cloud loves. Yuffie is not a member of the Love Triangle, so it’s not possible for Cloud to love Yuffie. The only girls stated to be love rivals by SE and stated to be in the Love Triangle with Cloud are Aerith and Tifa.Quex said:What if I'm mean to both Aerith, and Tifa? I get Yuffie's date and the LA scene. Does this mean Cloud loves Aerith?
In that case, I’d say that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa. As far as what you believe to be the canon way it happened, where does SE say that? As you yourself said, it’s only your opinion.Quex said:What if I get Aerith's date and the HA scene? (which is completely possible, and what I believe is the canon way that happened)
True – so that means we’re on equal footing. Your opinion hasn’t been validated by SE and neither has mine.Quex said:SE has never said the FTOIL page is saying Cloud's love is optional. This is merely an opinion you and others have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the FTOIL page is sayin Cloud's love is optional. (except in your opinion)Anastar said:SE has never stated that the High Affection version of the HW scene is canon OR default. This is merely an opinion you and other Cloti’s have formed on the basis of certain evidence which does not conclusively prove that the HA version is canon (except in your opinion).
You didn’t answer my question. Why do I need a quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is optional when you have no quote which specifies that Cloud’s love is static?Quex said:Okay, I agree that Cloud can waver between the two in the game.Anastar said:And now once again, you’re asking me for evidence that Cloud’s feelings are optional instead of static during the game. Why do I need a quote that proves Cloud’s feelings are optional during the game when there’s no quote proving that Cloud’s feelings are static during the game?
Which means that it’s your opinion.Quex said:But I also think that there are canon events of those scenes that are the outcome of what he does.
It doesn’t prove that there IS a canon version of events, either.Quex said:So saying Cloud's love can waver doesn't really prove anything, because it's true. But that doesn't mean there isn't a canon version of events.
And how does loving her as a child (actually, a dim crush on her according to SE) prove that he loves her as an adult?Quex said:There's only one person that Cloud fell in love with as a child:
There is only one girl that Cloud has been said to share romantic feelings with 7 times (quotes have been posted many times, I won't bother)SOURCE 10th AU page 12: "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."
---------
SOURCE Crisis Core Ultimania: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her.
And where does Cloud say that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? What he actually says is that what he means is kind of different. He said nothing about living with her, so why do you think he means that he wants to live with her in a different way than before? Why do you think it means that he’s meant to live with Tifa when he doesn’t say that?Quex said:one girl he chose to live with in a different way than before
one girl he is meant to live with, that he belongs with,(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:
“It all starts now. A new…”
Cloud looked for the right words.
“A new life.”
“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”
“That’s right…”
“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”
“Why?”
“Because I’ve always failed everything.”
“That’s not funny.”
“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)
It sounds to me like he’s saying that he’ll be okay because he has Tifa with him. That could mean in a platonic sense – there’s nothing definitely romantic about it. If there was anything romantic about it, why doesn’t Tifa take it that way? Why doesn’t he kiss her or something to show that it’s romantic? You’re merely interpreting this in a certain way – there’s nothing definite here.
This is after Aerith and Zack told Cloud that it wasn’t his time to die yet. So when it says he realizes where he is meant to live (like Aerith and Zack told him), then it means that’s the location he’s supposed to live in.Quex said:SOURCE: 10th AU:
Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live.
“His family were waiting” – Tifa said in CoT that the family is made up of friends, and that is reinforced in the Reunion Files:
When Cloud regains consciousness, he found himself in the Church. He saw the familiar faces of his friends and the orphans watching over him, and a smile slowly spread across his face. Aerith and Zack stand beyond the door, watching over them. At last, Cloud is no longer alone. ~Reunion Files, pg. 119
It says nothing about his family watching over him – just his friends and the orphans. That means his family are his friends. Then it refers to Aerith and Zack. After that, it says that Cloud’s no longer alone. So according to this, Cloud is no longer alone because of his friends, the orphans, Aerith, and Zack. To me, that means he was alone before AC/ACC while he was living with his “family”.
How does being together in the same location prove that they are romantically involved? Rufus and Rude are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved? Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are together in the same location – does that mean they’re romantically involved?Quex said:Even if it's just locations, one must ask the question, "Why was it so important that they'd be together in the same location?"SOURCE: Nojima on AC:
Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged.
And a new novella where Cloud says that Barret’s part of the family, too.Quex said:One girl who he has a family with....
(Multiple Quotes from the 10th AU stating that the family is Cloud and Tifa's)
Tifa said the family is made up of friends. The family existed before Cloud was invited into it, and Marlene invited Cloud into the family. Cloud believes that Aerith brought Denzel to him - so if anything Denzel is actually the “child” of Aerith and Cloud, not Cloud and Tifa. Marlene is really Barret’s child (actually Dyne’s), not Cloud and Tifa’s.
It doesn’t say the “thoughts/feelings which each other was holding” for each other, and Cloud revealed feelings that he had when he got blamed for Tifa falling at the bridge and when he got excluded from Tifa’s group. Besides, I see nothing to indicate that this quote is talking about the Lifestream event. For all I know, It could be talking about the HW scene.Quex said:one girl he said he had feelings for in the Lifestream Event, a non optional scene
We have been over all of these quotes before. So why are we going over them again? At any rate, as I’ve said before, this passage is only talking about the feelings Cloud had for Tifa as a kid. It’s not saying that he has feelings for her now.SOURCE Ultimania Omega page 25: Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.
By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.
Cloud recalled many memories during the Lifestream event which were important to him and that no one knew about - including getting blamed for Tifa’s fall at the bridge, being excluded from Tifa’s group of friends, and wanting to join SOLDIER so he’d be like Sephiroth and everyone would notice him.Quex said:SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.
and so on....Quex said:SOURCE: 10th AU: "they [Cloud and Tifa] became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding
I assume there’s nothing I’m supposed to comment on here.Quex said:Idk what theory this was so Imma leave it at that.And I’ve stated why I think your reasoning is skewed, and I have yet to see a quote that conclusively proves that your theory is correct. I won’t say that your theory isn’t possible because I think both your theory and my theory about Cloud’s love interest are possible.
I'm leaving the koibito stuff to Zealkin since I'm so SICK of debating that damn word.
And I discussed that quote above.Quex said:I posted the quote above. If Cloud didn't WANT Tifa in a different way, he'd have said so. He's a big boy, he can stand up for himself.Where does it say that Cloud wants Tifa in a different way than before? Or is that just your opinion?
Where does it say he blushed? There’s nothing about him blushing in the quote you gave me above.Quex said:So he's embarrassed that he has Tifa in a way that's different than before?1. Blushing around Tifa is no proof that he loves her. After all, blushing can be due to embarrassment.
Okay.Quex said:Yes he does. I don't disagree with this... moving on...2. Cloud supports Aerith, too, in more than one scene. Some examples:
Okay.Quex said:Idk what's going on here or what the original argument was so leaving this to Zealkin.3. As for Cloud knowing when Tifa’s not being herself, Sephiroth could tell the same thing:
Tifa "Cloud... Don't listen to him..." "Close your ears! Close your eyes!" Cloud "What's wrong, Tifa? I'm not affected by it." "...I wasn't paying attention to him." Tifa "All that talk of Hojo constructing you is a lie." "Don't we have our memories together?" "Being kids together, starlit nights..." (Sephiroth cocks his head toward her.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... Tifa..." "Why are you so worried and scared by those words?" "Hmm... Shall I show everyone here what's in your heart?" (She quickly turns away, without a word.) Sephiroth "Ha, ha, ha... You look like you're not feeling well." (He disappears. Cloud turns to Tifa) Cloud "...Tifa? Is Sephiroth right?"
Does that mean Sephiroth’s in love with Tifa?
Well, you’re free to have that opinion. I just don’t share the same opinion, and I think I’ve explained in detail why I don’t think so in my responses above.Quex said:Yes, honest to Dr. Doofenshmirtz I would. If Cloud was NOT there, living on his own somewhere, and it was JUST Barret and Tifa, and Barret brought Denzel home and said, "I felt Aerith or whoever lead Denzel to our home" and was blushing around her and she was asking him "Do you love me" and Nojima said they belonged together and they had 7 quotes saying they had romantic feelings for one another and stuff. Yes Yes i WOULD think they were in love.4. 4. Raising a family together does not indicate in and of itself that Cloud and Tifa are in love. Let’s say that Barret and Tifa were living in the Seventh Heaven with Denzel and Marlene. Would you think that Barret and Tifa are in love just because they’re bringing up Denzel and Marlene? Would you think Barret and Tifa were in love if they started calling that group a family?
I meant to finish your post today, but this is all I have time for. I’ll try to finish the rest of your post tomorrow.