The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

At the same time, though, I think it's meant to become clear right around the time that Tifa lets into Cloud.

You mean when she nags him and then out of nowhere asks, "Who is it? Me or Aerith?"


that bugs me so much cause it doesn't even fit the context of what they were talking about.


EDIT
on the mother thing, I got another one. Barret says to Denzel in AC/C, "Protect your mother" about Tifa during the Bahamut fight (I don't remember the line in the English version) so... yeah

 

[Vendel]

I can see how the first half or so of the movie could reasonably be read as keeping people guessing. If you go into it with no knowledge of interviews, Ultimanias and On the Way to a Smile,

you squint really hard, ignore things like family photos, think that he loves a dead woman instead...........

At the same time, though, I think it's meant to become clear right around the time that Tifa lets into Cloud.

A conversation which takes place.....in a bedroom!!! Dun dun DUN!!!!

 

[JayM]

That is the line in the English version. I like both versions, depending on the scene, and I definitely remember Barret's dub voice saying that.

And, I don't know, I think the creators ship CloTi for the most part, but I don't think the narrative itself has to be read as them being together romantically. I think it's very EASY to read it that way, but if I played with it long enough I think I could put together an alternate reading or two without total canon!fail.

Actually, that brings to mind something I wanted to ask earlier: how much are we valuing creator intent vs narrative content in this debate? Because I've always thought (and this is how most of my lit study was @ university as well) that if you could support your reading of the text with evidence from th text, creator intent can be pretty much ignored. The work stands as it stands regardless of what the creators WANTED to do with it.

So, not saying one CAN necessarily make such an argument for Clerith, but if one could--solely from the narrative--would it be considered, idk, "worthy" of this discussion, or does it have to also adhere to all the creator quotes and meta to count as canon rather than interpretation?

Sorry if someone has asked this already!

 

[Vendel]

And, I don't know, I think the creators ship CloTi for the most part,

The creators don't "ship" anything.

but I don't think the narrative itself has to be read as them being together romantically.

Just like it doesn't have to be read that Aerith is dead or that Hojo is like totally into science.

I think it's very EASY to read it that way, but if I played with it long enough I think I could put together an alternate reading or two without total canon!fail.

I don't think the "see what stick" argument is a really solid base for trying to come up with alternate narratives.

Actually, that brings to mind something I wanted to ask earlier: how much are we valuing creator intent vs narrative content in this debate? Because I've always thought (and this is how most of my lit study was @ university as well) that if you could support your reading of the text with evidence from th text, creator intent can be pretty much ignored. The work stands as it stands regardless of what the creators WANTED to do with it.

Well let me paraphrase a point a few people have made here. The merits of "death of the Author" and the like aside, in most cases it's just used by people to ignore what they don't like. Like the example I provided a few post back.

So, not saying one CAN necessarily make such an argument for Clerith, but if one could--solely from the narrative--would it be considered, idk, "worthy" of this discussion, or does it have to also adhere to all the creator quotes and meta to count as canon rather than interpretation?

Sorry if someone has asked this already!

If a C/A shipper could make a decent argument just from the narrative it would be worthy of mention. I wont hold my breath though.

Most of their attempts look more like this. "Just because Cloud is living with Tifa and there are two children doesn't mean anything at all. AND THEN CLOUD MET AERITH IN THE FLOWERS DURING THE CREDITS."

 

[Dashell]

Actually, that brings to mind something I wanted to ask earlier: how much are we valuing creator intent vs narrative content in this debate? Because I've always thought (and this is how most of my lit study was @ university as well) that if you could support your reading of the text with evidence from th text, creator intent can be pretty much ignored. The work stands as it stands regardless of what the creators WANTED to do with it.

I can understand this and honestly I can even support it if you're arguing interpretation and opinions and such. But when we're discussing facts and what the creators DID intend... then using the Ultimanias/interviews and what not is unavoidable. And that's what this topic is. Facts and what the creators have told us.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

A literary analysis of any work -- whether novel, film or video game -- is always valuable and welcome in my eyes. That said, the LTD itself is about canon, so I'm not sure that a mining of the published works alone is "worthy" (this feels like the wrong word somehow; shall we replace it with "appropriate to"?) this discussion specifically.

Still, I'd love to read such an analysis, and given that the only interpretations we're getting from a Clerith perspective these days blatantly ignore canon anyway, might as well bring it up here.

And, no, it wouldn't have to adhere to the meta. That's the difference between canon and literary analysis, after all.

 

[Theozilla]

That is the line in the English version. I like both versions, depending on the scene, and I definitely remember Barret's dub voice saying that.

I thought he referred to Tifa the same way in the Japanese version as well...(perhaps the subtitles were translated poorly?)

 

[Dashell]

Like I said I Don't remember what it was... I remember him saying "Mom" in both versions though.


Also I'll tell you all a secret cause I love you all so much

As for as ambiguity goes, I saw AC, and I didn't think Cloud and Tifa were a couple... I mean I wanted it, but I thought, "oh they didn't have them kiss or anything because of the date mechanics." I thought they were trying to make it so it could go either way. In fact I remember asking someone who had played DoC if Cloud and Tifa were an official couple yet. I really did... I think it was Case of Tifa (yeah I read stuff out of order ) was the first Compilation entry that made me realize they were a couple. I STILL Have no idea how people are making the "Do you love me?" scene to mean something other than a worried lover asking if her partner still cares for her.


And of course the Ultimanias helped too, but yeah until I read CoT, I thought they really were leaving it ambiguous on purpose.


COME AT ME BRO VENDEL

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Barret says "You look after mama" in the official dub, and ここで母ちゃんを守れ in the original Japanese. It's the same thing -- "Look after/protect your mom here."

 

[JayM]

The creators don't "ship" anything.

Unless you feel that shipping something makes one inherently unable to construct a reliable narrative around the object of the shipping, I'm not really sure why this is an arguable point. I think Nojima definitely ships it, if nothing else; he clearly takes delight in the fact that they are together, and colors their relationship with his own views of "love, marriage, and family." Sounds like shipping to me, unless you're of the opinion that shipping requires one to ignore canon and/or flail excessively, in which case I'll agree with you that none of the creators are shippers.

Except for Nomura, who very clearly ships Gackt/himself.

Just like it doesn't have to be read that Aerith is dead or that Hojo is like totally into science.

Pretty much.

The merits of "death of the Author" and the like aside, in most cases it's just used by people to ignore what they don't like.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure Twilight is a terrible love story no matter how beautiful SMeyer intended it to be. But I digress.

That's the difference between canon and literary analysis, after all.

This and Que's post were pretty much the answer I was looking for. I'm not a C/A shipper, and I'm not super-invested in the LTD aspect of the LTD (I just...really like reading the Japanese nerdery tbh ), but it didn't seem like something that'd been done before so I thought I might give it a shot, just for the challenge. I still might, idk. But if I did do something like that, I wouldn't want to clog up this thread with it if this isn't the place, y'know?

...I think this is the third time I've posted today, WHAT IS THIS...also:

I thought he referred to Tifa the same way in the Japanese version as well...

I read it as Que saying he referred to Tifa as that in Japanese, but she wasn't sure if he also did in English. So was confirming that he did, because I love hearing Denzel yell "son of a bitch" so I generally watch that part in English.

 

[Vendel]

Unless you feel that shipping something makes one inherently unable to construct a reliable narrative around the object of the shipping, I'm not really sure why this is an arguable point.

Frankly speaking it just comes off as insulting to lump in authors with shippers. Shipping is fandom. When Nojima talks about C/T or writes about them that does not equate to a fanfic or essay.

People might as well just accuse him of being a biased cloti. Or JK a biased Harry/Ginny shipper.

 

[JayM]

Frankly speaking it just comes off as insulting to lump in authors with shippers.

*shrug* I ship things in my own work and I wouldn't be insulted if people pointed it out. But again, this comes back to how you define shipping. If shipping = bias or inability to characterize well, by your definition, then yes, it's insulting. I define it as enjoying a pairing, period, and not even to the exclusion of other pairings.

But again--this is not really relevant to the LTD. I'd rather not piss off the mods so if you wanna continue this thread, er, PM me or summat?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Re: Author intent- I will state that there are two distinct but equally important notes regarding author's intent-

What they wanted to portray

And what they did.

In the case of ambiguity, the former informs the latter.

In the case of straight up content, the former is the benchmark for recognizing how far off the mark the actuality is.

"X character meant Y when he said Z" is materially different from "Oh yeah, My faction Y could totally beat other author's faction Q in a fight!"

One clarifies that which was not clear, the other asserts a claim that is not necessarily so.

Author intent is a valid piece of evidence for literary purposes when presented with examples of type A. Not to those of type B.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, it's also the author's job to successfully convey what they want the reader to take from the work. In the absence of an interview or other meta source, the reader has nothing but the work itself to go by for interpretation. If the work does not properly convey what was intended, it really can't be said that the work contains that which was intended.

And therein lies one of the main reasons I prefer literary analysis to meta review: the former draws meaning from the actual content of the work, while the latter frequently incorporates details that aren't anywhere near the work itself. The other main reason, by the way, is that I find the process of interpreting meaning a more fulfilling intellectual exercise than simply being handed meaning.

But, again, the LTD is about canon, so the silver platter approach is the one we take.

 

[Danseru-kun]

For what it's worth, I DO think there's a valid...I don't want to say Clerith, in keeping with my belief that disproving one doesn't prove the other. But there's certainly an anti-CloTi ...

However, in movies, showing the single bedroom is often shorthand for "romantically involved." showing anything else? Is usually the opposite.

I think that argument is valid but not strong enough, the movie being ambiguous will not diminish what is written in CoT. Also, one counter argument is that the movie's genre is action and is about Cloud's drama in which romantic indications are simply not intended or necessary.

Again, we face the question; if Cloti is canon, why don't they show us that they have the same bed? Why do they keep ambiguity?

My answer is that they want fans to continue interpreting amongst themselves. However, it doesn't mean that if they want us to interpret, there is no definite answer. The LTD is about finding the answer the creators intended. But at least ACC shows us that there are certain things the creators wanted convey like Cloud's depression stemming from Denzel's Geogstigma and running away because of it, not because of Aerith.

Actually, that brings to mind something I wanted to ask earlier: how much are we valuing creator intent vs narrative content in this debate? Because I've always thought (and this is how most of my lit study was @ university as well) that if you could support your reading of the text with evidence from th text, creator intent can be pretty much ignored. The work stands as it stands regardless of what the creators WANTED to do with it.

Like most posted, I think the LTD is mostly about creator intent. Narrative interpretation would be valid as long as it can be supported by analysis. However, I think valid interpretation=/= canon. The thing is, both Cloti and Clerith can both be valid in the narration, but creator intent will always be the canon.

As for canon, we ask: "Does the work justify the creator intent?" It can be rephrased as "Does the stated creator intent contradict what can be seen in the material?" I think that will be a more reasonable query than "Why is SE keep saying wrong things when it's obviously *insert ship here*?"

As for as ambiguity goes, I saw AC, and I didn't think Cloud and Tifa were a couple... ... I think it was Case of Tifa (yeah I read stuff out of order ) was the first Compilation entry that made me realize they were a couple. I STILL Have no idea how people are making the "Do you love me?" scene to mean something other than a worried lover asking if her partner still cares for her.

We're pretty much the same I think, except that when I watched AC I know nothing about FFVII. I though that Cloud and Tifa were chaste parents who are still in the middle of developing romance. I see that the world somehow had a calamity (I thought Jenova was the meteor that fell from the sky) that's why they were compelled to become parents to take care of children like Denzel. The way Tifa supports Cloud and their shared smile in the end makes me think that at least they are working to be real lovers.

I lurked in different forums for years but the LTD article here is the only thing that convinced me that Cloti is canon. I really didn't ship them for years too, slight Clerith yes, Zerith VERY YES, but then CoT came out I was like: IMPERFECT COUPLE WITH ISSUES=AWESOME!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, it's also the author's job to successfully convey what they want the reader to take from the work. In the absence of an interview or other meta source, the reader has nothing but the work itself to go by for interpretation. If the work does not properly convey what was intended, it really can't be said that the work contains that which was intended.

This is true, but it's also true that some meaning within a work can only be understood by knowing things external to the text- Saman Rushdie's Midnight Children, Shame, and Satanic verses are three wholly narratively unrelated novels, and can be appreciated full well on their own, but their real significance only emerges from knowing that the three are a thematic trilogy- which lets you see the metanarrative present in the themes of each book.

And therein lies one of the main reasons I prefer literary analysis to meta review: the former draws meaning from the actual content of the work, while the latter frequently incorporates details that aren't anywhere near the work itself. The other main reason, by the way, is that I find the process of interpreting meaning a more fulfilling intellectual exercise than simply being handed meaning.

OTOH, all literary analysis must understand the basic context of the work to not produce wallbangers like Shakespeare mocking a situation that hadn't actually happened yet.

But, again, the LTD is about canon, so the silver platter approach is the one we take.

Not just silver platter, but yes, we take what we are told and use that to further the analysis, rather than ignoring it.

 

[Vendel]

I think that argument is valid but not strong enough, the movie being ambiguous will not diminish what is written in CoT. Also, one counter argument is that the movie's genre is action and is about Cloud's drama in which romantic indications are simply not intended or necessary.

I think the fanwank involved in this series gets people to see "ambiguity" in far greater amounts than intended.

My answer is that they want fans to continue interpreting amongst themselves. However, it doesn't mean that if they want us to interpret, there is no definite answer. The LTD is about finding the answer the creators intended.

This line of reasoning bothers me. It assumes that the creators are putting all this effort into making us work for the answer. As if Cloud's love life is a Riddler Trophy the fandom needs to figure out. It also assumes that Cloud's love life is as important to them as it is to certain segments of the fandom.

The logical extension of this is the "SE would never answer a question as big as the LTD, the great mystery of FFVII, in an ultimania. They need to hold a press conference to answer it properly." type responses.

But at least ACC shows us that there are certain things the creators wanted convey like Cloud's depression stemming from Denzel's Geogstigma and running away because of it, not because of Aerith.

Like most posted, I think the LTD is mostly about creator intent. Narrative interpretation would be valid as long as it can be supported by analysis. However, I think valid interpretation=/= canon. The thing is, both Cloti and Clerith can both be valid in the narration, but creator intent will always be the canon.

So the story makes it Clear Cloud's actions are not about Aerith in ACC. But clerith is still a valid narrative interpretation?

I'm sorry but whenever I see the "clerith" interpretation of ACC it usually boils down to "Cloud doesn't look happy with Tifa". Followed by "Then he kisses the rain while thinking of Aerith".

As for canon, we ask: "Does the work justify the creator intent?" It can be rephrased as "Does the stated creator intent contradict what can be seen in the material?" I think that will be a more reasonable query than "Why is SE keep saying wrong things when it's obviously *insert ship here*?"

For some people nearly everything SE puts out contradicts the true love story of FFVII. Then they go at it with a hacksaw for a few weeks/months until they can proclaim it supporting their position all along.

 

[Danseru-kun]

This line of reasoning bothers me. It assumes that the creators are putting all this effort into making us work for the answer. As if Cloud's love life is a Riddler Trophy the fandom needs to figure out. It also assumes that Cloud's love life is as important to them as it is to certain segments of the fandom.

What I meant here is that people can keep interpreting whether they share a bed or not. Whether they are chaste or not. The problem is like what you said, they see Cloud and Tifa as a dysfunctional couple/one-sided romance, and that's FAR from what the creators intend. It's a response about the bed thingy as well. Not showing a bed does have a narrative value.

So the story makes it Clear Cloud's actions are not about Aerith in ACC. But clerith is still a valid narrative interpretation?

I'm sorry but whenever I see the "clerith" interpretation of ACC it usually boils down to "Cloud doesn't look happy with Tifa". Followed by "Then he kisses the rain while thinking of Aerith".

I'm not talking about ACC. I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where there are strong evidences for Clerith. I was saying, "as long as there are valid evidences in the narrative, like dialogue (symvbolism is very subjective) Clerith interpretation can be valid as well. And this is also response to the narrative vs creator intent. As for now, I see no strong evidence that Cloud had a romantic relationship with Aerith.

 

[Zealkin]

I didn't think the bed thing was ambiguous of the relationship per say, I just thought that Reno and Rude saw the kids room and dumped the both of them in there without much thought, Cloud was kind of heavy after all

 

[Master Bates]

Or maybe Reno and Rude did not bring them (Cloud and Tifa) to the master's bedroom to avoid something that might emotionally hurt Rude and chose to dump them in the kid's bedroom instead, aside from the possibility that it must be the easiest bedroom to intrude. Or maybe the master's bedroom was locked and the key was in Tifa's panty. But all of these are mere hypothesis so I won't dare push them.

But in the big picture, does this one really matter?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Guys, it's really simple why they chose the kids room. There is no 'Master Bedroom'. There is only the cot in Cloud's office--which he and Tifa share (prove I'm wrong ^-^) which would be awkward to lay them on as the usual position is with Tifa on top of Cloud. Hard to monitor them that way. Logic, people, use it.

I am far too lazy to go back over the past 2 months I missed, but if anything of particular interest was mentioned, feel free to fill me in.

 

[Strangelove]

Cloud sleeps like a bat hanging from pipes in the ceiling as Tifa is nestled on him like a possum with its babies.

Prove I'm wrong, bitches. Square's never said for certain.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Cloud sleeps like a bat hanging from pipes in the ceiling as Tifa is nestled on him like a possum with its babies.

Prove I'm wrong, bitches. Square's never said for certain.

based on their personalities, this sounds correct

but then how does tifa nestle him is it like his feet or does she say 'fuq u gravity' specifically to lay on his chest like an oversized cat

 

[Strangelove]

She kind of wraps herself around him like a snake.

My reasoning is, well, we've never been told that she actually has bones, have we?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Guys, it's really simple why they chose the kids room. There is no 'Master Bedroom'. There is only the cot in Cloud's office--which he and Tifa share (prove I'm wrong ^-^) which would be awkward to lay them on as the usual position is with Tifa on top of Cloud. Hard to monitor them that way. Logic, people, use it.

I am far too lazy to go back over the past 2 months I missed, but if anything of particular interest was mentioned, feel free to fill me in.

Actually, both Cloud and Tifa sleep in the giant walk in Freezer behind the bar.

It's the only way their raging fires of sexual lust don't burn the place down each night.

As for what you missed, Anastar said some crazy, we all laughed and told her 'no', she said extra special crazy including trying to tell me the meaning of words I wrote, we had a spectacular go at her for that, and now we're flitting about through the subjects of Symbology re: Denzel's parents and C/T, 'Death of the Author' as it applies to literary circles (Correct answer: Yes AND no!) and now the awkward sleeping arrangements at the new seventh heaven.