The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Danseru-kun]

Hello LTD! I asked our main translator in Guilty Gear about the phrase &#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379; and he gave me some replies. Before you take what he said, I have to tell you that he openly dislikes shipping and is very skeptic about romantic connections. (In our fandom, a <3 heart symbol in a relationship chart is not enough to convince him of romance.) EDIT: He doesn't know about the LTD but has knowledge about the original FFVII, Crisis Core and Advent Children.

Read our full conversation here: His journal entry where I started a conversation unrelated to the journal

And if you don't mind, I have a question. I know you're not a shipper your neutral stance (I assume) would be a good ground for the FFVII LTD debate which I really love. Is &#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379; romantic or not. The full quotes are below.

If they're not necessarily romantic, can these be apathetic or do they indicate deep communication?

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#12399;&#29289;&#35486;&#12398;&#32066;&#30436;&#12395;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379;&#12289;&#12300;&#65313;&#65315;&#12301;&#12300;&#65316; &#65315;&#12301;&#12398;&#26178;&#20195;&#12399;&#19968;&#32210;&#12395;&#26286;&#12425;&#12375;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12290;
("She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.")

&#26368;&#32066;&#27770;&#25126;&#12434;&#21069;&#12395;&#19968;&#26178;&#35299;&#25955;&#12434;&#23459;&#35328;&#12375;&#12289;&#39131;&#31354;&#33351;&#12395;&#27531;&#12387;&#12383;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12392;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379;&#12290;
("Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him.")

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12398;&#25552;&#26696;&#12391;&#19968;&#26178;&#35299;&#25955;&#12377;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392;&#12395;&#12394;&#12427;&#12364;&#12289;&#39131;&#31354;&#33351;&#12395;&#27531;&#12426;&#12289;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#36890;&#12431;&#12379;&#12427;&#12290;
("When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. ")

"Omoi o kayowase" by itself is translated as "we send our love" or "we communicate our feelings". Japanese language has a nuance where the word "like" is synonymous with "love". So in speaking, there is that whole complexity where feelings and love are closely related.

However, I think it's a lot more complicated than that. I'm not sure the source of that passage, but from what I remember, Cloud's feelings when discussing his true self with Tifa were both close and distant at the same time. He wanted to show his true self to her, but at the time when Aerith was killed, he was burdened with guilt and felt he didn't deserve Tifa's feelings. He carries this guilt with him until Advent Children, where he finally lets it go, this is symbolized when he lost his cellphone, which represented the barrier between him and the rest of his friends (i.e. he'd never pick up and just make them leave messages and he seldom talked to them in person or let other people talk for him).

Cloud has always been withdrawn, even during Crisis Core when he was just an amateur Shinra Guard, so his feelings aren't that evident throughout the series, even if he acts cold and cocky or playful.

Post-Advent Children, I think he has a lot on his mind, Denzel, saving the children from Geo-stigma...and then later helping out Vincent during Dirge of Cerberus. To me, he has and probably will always be something of an enigmatic lone-wolf who likes to travel. I doubt his feelings will ever be that strong for Tifa, since he practically spurned her prior to Advent Children, and scars like that seldom heal well, especially for Tifa. He feels responsible as a man to look after Tifa and protect her, but beyond that it takes a lot of courage to accept his potential feelings for her, and for her to accept him as he is.

I think it's a mistake to think about it from the girls' feelings' perspective. Cloud isn't a social misfit, but he lost his mother, to say nothing of his father, so he doesn't exactly have a normal emotional background. If he does admit his feelings to Tifa, and that's a big IF...it'll probably be when he's much older and more relaxed with the man he's become.

Then I gave him the idea of what's happening in the debate, he replied:

Like I said, feelings and love are two different interpretations, and because different sources say different things from different translations, that passage no longer becomes reliable as a source for argument. The phrase is neither romantic nor un-romantic. It is neutral expression that explains what occured.

The best way to analyze this isn't by what the books or guides have said. The best way is to look at the actual in-game dialogue, and post-game dialogue and see how exactly Tifa and Cloud, who are, let's face it, the only survivors (sans Barret and Yuffie for obvious reasons) of the ordeal are faring. Aerith is implied to have feelings for Zack throughout his journey in Crisis Core, in fact the goal is to increase her affections towards Zack in that particular game...therefore, it's highly unlikely that Cloud himself would've successfully worked out a relationship with Aerith, even if Sephiroth didn't kill her, because Cloud wasn't himself at the time (she herself sensed this).

What's more, Aerith in Advent Children seems to spend more time with Zack in the lifestream.

I'm not saying that I support Cloud x Tifa. What I am saying is, is that it's the most likely outcome based on story analysis. However, another outcome people have to consider is that Cloud might not actually form a relationship with anyone and still remain a loner. That's the cold hard truth that shippers have to accept. Tifa's quote "Word's aren't the only way to express your feelings" has more to do with facing adversity and confusion and doubting oneself (which Cloud did) and has little to do with love itself.

I then asked him if the feelings can be apathetic or if it requires a degree of emotion:

To express one's feelings on a critical topic or subject doesn't necessarily mean "love" or "romance".

If you look carefully, there are many points in conversation that can be expressed emotionally through things like anger, sadness, frustration, confusion, doubt, fear, apprehension, confidence, understanding, trust, reassurance, or perhaps a confession of a truth or coming to a realization.

Tifa's feelings for Cloud were clearly expressed at the time they were alone. She says "As long as I'm
with you...As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared." Cloud's existence became her confidence and her sense of home, since aside from Cloud, she was all alone.

"No matter how close we are...We were far apart...before this. But when
we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought
I heard your voice......sniff...you probably won't remember this... But deep
in my heart I heard you calling my name...Or at least I thought I did..."

Cloud's confusion and doubt in himself is expressed here: "Hey Tifa......I......
There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about.
But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted
to say...I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh..."

This discussion between them gets even more intense during Advent Children, but you already know that. Tifa tried to become a ersatz family with Denzel and Marlene, but this was difficult because Cloud wasn't there like she wanted, he was always away on errands. Marlene even gets mad at Cloud for trying to get Vincent to pass on a message for him instead of speaking to Tifa himself. Tifa herself gets mad at Cloud for running away from his Geostigma and not telling her about it, not to mention trying to pass rescue of the children on to the Turks instead of going himself...

In any case, Cloud lacks confidence to admit any sort of feelings for anyone, much less Tifa.

So therefore that passage isn't about Romance, since the feelings expressed weren't mutual.

Let me paraphrase what my last paragraph said:

Tifa expressed her feelings, Cloud did not, though Tifa was optimistic in saying she knew how he felt even if he didn't say anything. That's essentially what happened.

This is further complicated during Advent Children, as I explained earlier.

So yes, the passage was emotional, and love was there, but that love was most likely one-sided on Tifa's part.

And then I gave him the quote : (FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
&#22823;&#20999;&#12394;&#20154;&#12398;&#24453;&#12388;&#22580;&#25152;&#12408;&#12392;&#20210;&#38291;&#12364;&#25955;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12365;&#12289;&#12405;&#12383;&#12426;&#12365;&#12426;&#12395;&#12394;&#12383;&#12463;&#12521;&#12489;&#12392;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12290;&#27531;&#12373;&#12428;&#12383;&#26368;&#24460;&#12398;&#26178;&#38291;&#12391;&#12362;&#20114;&#12356;&#12398;&#24819;&#12356;&#12434;&#25171;&#12385;&#26126;&#12369;&#12289;&#12381;&#12375;&#12390;&#8230;&#8230;&#12290;

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

But since he's really skeptic and doesn't know about other aspects of the LTD, this is his reply:

Haha, the "mutual" aspect is the WAY they attempt to express their feelings given the situation, but the feelings themselves are on different wavelengths. During that time, Cloud is wandering about the ship restless, while Tifa is just watching the sun go down, scared of the future. They're two different people with different coping mechanisms in that sense.

I know many of you will disagree to what he says, but he just doesn't follow the LTD and feel free to analyze what he said. And wow I feel so unbiased after I posted this.

EDIT: After he gave the replies, I invited him here and gave him the links to CoT, COLW and the LTD Analysis here and let's see if he has a new perspective after he reads them (assuming that he does read them.) Also if he doesn't want to engage in this debate I'll just speak for him.

 

[Theozilla]

Hmmm, that is a quite interesting analysis and does make some very persuasive arguments for a romantic skeptic/anti-shipper perspective. I think he makes some really good points (e.g. Cloud seriously does have major confidence problems) but I don't agree 100% with his entire analysis (which is expected in a debate). It really does go to show how complicated language and translation in general is.
But he does seem to agree that the Highwind dialogue is not lacking in emotion. I wonder if he knew that the scene had been "toned down" during the development stages of the game. It will be interesting to see if his viewpoint changes at all if he does read some of the short-stories.

 

[Edley]

Hoo boy.

This is from the Advent Children Script

Sephiroth: Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of
taking it away.

[All sorts of memories flash through Cloud's mind very quickly.
Angered, he grabs Sephiroth's sword out of his shoulder and stands
up]

Cloud: I pity you. You just don't get it at all.

Sephiroth: Heh.

[Sephiroth run towards Cloud and tries to attack, but his attack his
blocked. He jumps off of a wall and hovers in the air. Cloud leaps
into the air as well.]

Cloud: There's not a thing I don't cherish!

[Cloud then pulls his sword back and flings it forward, allowing all
of his blades to come out and surround Sephiroth. Moving fast enough
to leave golden after glows, he performs his Limit Break "Omnislash
V5 on Sephiroth, defeating him.]

Darksyde-Ki

Post-Advent Children, I think he has a lot on his mind, Denzel, saving the children from Geo-stigma...and then later helping out Vincent during Dirge of Cerberus. To me, he has and probably will always be something of an enigmatic lone-wolf who likes to travel. I doubt his feelings will ever be that strong for Tifa, since he practically spurned her prior to Advent Children, and scars like that seldom heal well, especially for Tifa. He feels responsible as a man to look after Tifa and protect her, but beyond that it takes a lot of courage to accept his potential feelings for her, and for her to accept him as he is.

That's speculative and reads like interpretations based on a limited view of some quotes plus watching Advent Children.

I don't think it's inferring too much to say that Advent Children Complete post-script as well as the phone "conversation" at the end of Reminiscence of FFVII show that Cloud isn't a closeted emotional-shut off. In the post-script, Cloud is able to garner the positive from Zack's death and share it with Denzel in the place that Zack died. I'll let the phone converstation speak for itself.

Go to 5:35

I don't want to say that's flirting, but it's definitely not apathetic. Cloud defeats Sephiroth because he refuses to give up on those he loves living and dead. Sure he might be poor at expressing himself, but if anything Cloud suffers from caring too much about his friends and family. And as for the part about Tifa's scars not being healed ... I'd say re-watch AC again. From the moment Cloud says "Sorry I'm late" when he saves her from the falling building especially.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Haha, the "mutual" aspect is the WAY they attempt to express their feelings given the situation, but the feelings themselves are on different wavelengths. During that time, Cloud is wandering about the ship restless, while Tifa is just watching the sun go down, scared of the future. They're two different people with different coping mechanisms in that sense.

Ummm... did they see a different version of that scene than I did?

 

[Danseru-kun]

Since I want to be fair to both sides of the debate, I didn't give him any Pro-Cloti arguments so that he'll be unbiased in giving the literal translation. I also didn't try to argue with him or anything so that the conversation between us will be as neutral as possible. But at least he confirmed again that the "feelings" cannot be apathetic but he just has his own interpretation. Again, he does not follow the debate that's why he has limited information for his analysis. But if you ask me, he just doesn't care about the LTD (or any ship)

 

[Edley]

Word Danseru, what he wrote makes a bit more sense in the context of him not giving a fuck.

 

[Vendel]

Word Danseru, what he wrote makes a bit more sense in the context of him not giving a fuck.

I don't know about that.

It seems like an awful lot of work making up that entire narrative just to support a "it's not romantic" point of view.

That isn't a neutral stance.

 

[Dashell]

Tifa's quote "Word's aren't the only way to express your feelings" has more to do with facing adversity and confusion and doubting oneself (which Cloud did) and has little to do with love itself.

Okay this made me tilt my head in confusion... uhm... that quote WAS about their love... we've been told the scene is romantic and the line was risqué.

anyways, that's a much better argument on the issue being non romantic than what we've heard in the past. "It IS romantic but I didn't see it as romantic so it isn't "

It's honestly and argument I can get behind and even understand, even if I don't agree with it because it's so thought out and was pretty much my stance before I read CoT and the Ultimanias.

My only problem is he seems to be lacking information like CoT, what the HA scene was about, and he seems to have a bad memory of the scene. Cloud wasn't running around while Tifa watched the sunset If that happened, even the most hardcore Cloti shipper wouldn't be debating for them.


However, he seems to express that the quotes say feelings are most certainly there, which again, backs up my point that it's not a phrase you'd use to describe an apathetic conversation. Anyway, thanks for his input Danseru-kun, tell him he's welcome to post here at any time he likes

EDIT
and please do not provide the definition of apathetic again. I know it means LITTLE or no feeling, but my point is it's not saying THEY have no feelings, it's saying their conversation does.

 

[Edley]

I don't know about that.

It seems like an awful lot of work making up that entire narrative just to support a "it's not romantic" point of view.

That isn't a neutral stance.

Agreed, but he does concede that CloudxTifa is the most likely outcome. Then he proceeds to contradict himself by stringing some "logic" about what Cloud would do after AC that seems to be based on personal inferences and not the story itself. If Cloud was supposed to be a lone wolf that was too broken to love anyone properly he wouldn't have smiled at the end of AC, wouldn't of told Denzel that he was coming home after the battle, and he wouldn't of continued to be living with Tifa and the kids at the time of DC.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Well he said he'll read the OTWTS and I gave him all the links. He's pretty open-minded when it comes to canon, he's just the type that moves away from a shipper's perspective as much as he can. And yeah, he did admit to me in his last reply that what he knows is outdated.

Also, when I gave him the link to the LTD analysis, he said he might know Squall_of_Seed from way back.

and please do not provide the definition of apathetic again. I know it means LITTLE or no feeling, but my point is it's not saying THEY have no feelings, it's saying their conversation does.

Sorry about that, I just want to provide the perspective of both sides when I was telling him about what's going on with the debate. Next time I'll be more careful

 

[Dashell]

Sorry about that, I just want to provide the perspective of both sides when I was telling him about what's going on with the debate. Next time I'll be more careful

Not YOU, other people keep bringing up the definition trying to say that apathetic can also have feeling.

 

[Danseru-kun]

He gave me a new response, and like I expected he's pretty much anti-shipping Here's the rest of our conversation where I'm already explaining him some stuff.

DISCLAIMER:
1. Prior to this, when I asked about the feelings quote I did not give him any Cloti arguments so that he will focus on the literal meaning of the quotes a provided.
2. We're now conversing on Cloud and Tifa's relationship that is exclusive from my earlier questions regarding the meaning of the phrase.

Okay...um...I just read "Case of Tifa", and here are my thoughts:

1. I swear to God it's like Cloud has an extreme case of Autism or Mother Dependency regarding Tifa. It's like because he lost his own mother, he's using Tifa as a replacement for his sense of good judgment and conscience.

2. Cloud has a very mechanical mindset, only thinking about the bare minimum of things (how he described locations as places with "a lot of people" "few people" or "lots of monsters"). I had an Uncle like that and he was mentally unstable and withdrawn from most people, so this raises that whole Autism Red Flag. Like I said, Cloud lost his mother and had nothing of a father, so how he interacts with children isn't really normal. He interacts with Denzel more like a little brother than a father or teacher or mentor, unlike Tifa.

3. I wasn't aware that Tifa harbored guilt as much as Cloud did, regarding her role in AVALANCHE. I suppose that also was part of the reason she leaned on Cloud so heavily with her feelings, hoping he was strong enough to serve as a crutch. Cloud even says "If you&#8217;ve forgotten the way you were then, I&#8217;ll be there to remind you." so in a twisted way, they were emotional crutches for one another's guilt.

4. Elaborating on the above, Tifa's feelings are such that she wants to be distracted by other people's lives so she doesn't feel isolated or alone with her guilt, this is the opposite of Cloud who isolates himself due to his mental immaturity and gives barely any hint of emotions, as if he was stripped bare. So in that regard it was a matter of time before they pushed one another apart, either due to Tifa's dependency, or Cloud's sense of wanting to mature on his own alone and fill in the gaps of his hap-hazard life. Polar opposites: a woman trying to forget, and a man trying to remember. To say nothing of Cloud's ritual of hiding his "mini-sins" of guilt from his mother figure (Tifa). To say nothing of the huge guilt he carries around regarding Aerith, which it seems Tifa also shares but has already gotten over somewhat.

5. I still think Cloud is too mentally immature to consider Tifa a lover, much less any other woman that came into his life. His mind is unstable and he's underdeveloped emotionally, and has problems expressing himself. I've met soldiers with PTSD who have a similar problem and they live like this their whole lives, isolated and alone. Sure he might be happy with Tifa as a mother figure, but it's going to take a long time for him to think of her as anything more...and she's already showing signs of fatigue and might even give up trying to love him that way.

EDIT: Gotta add this:

5. Aerith's feelings for Cloud are stronger than I thought, but, I'd say they're just as strong for Zack as well. Tifa's feelings for Cloud, muddled in pain and guilt as they are, are every bit the match for Aerith's. In other words: this can go the Harem route.

He hasn't read the LTD Analysis yet when he wrote that but at least we were given a fresh perspective from an anti-shipper that doesn't know about other creator statements. He also has geeky thoughts after reading COLW/COLB but I'll post them in a proper thread, not here.

And about Tres/SoS, he said this:

I knew him years ago as a fellow forumite from IcyBrian's RPG forums. I went by Blade by then.

He probably remembers me.

Actually our discussions on Mako Life Cycle theory might be on that website come to think on it

 

[Elisa Maza]

Adittedly, I skipped most of the posts (will go into them later), but my eye caught this and...

Marlene even gets mad at Cloud for trying to get Vincent to pass on a message for him instead of speaking to Tifa himself.

.. Huh?

No, seriously. I have no idea what he's talking about. Which scene is he referring to?

 

[Dashell]

1. I swear to God it's like Cloud has an extreme case of Autism or Mother Dependency regarding Tifa. It's like because he lost his own mother, he's using Tifa as a replacement for his sense of good judgment and conscience.

I just... don't... I mean... what?... Dude, I don't care if he doesn't ship, he needs to come here and discuss this stuff

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And about Tres/SoS, he said this:I knew him years ago as a fellow forumite from IcyBrian's RPG forums. I went by Blade by then.

He probably remembers me.

Actually our discussions on Mako Life Cycle theory might be on that website come to think on it

Holy shit, you serious? Hell yeah, I remember him. Ironically, he immediately came to mind for me when you mentioned "Guilty Gear." He was loving the hell out of that series like 10 years ago.

Dude had a lot of good ideas about FF (just not the LTD, apparently). He was the first one to make a comment that got me to thinking about the similar metaphysics that have shown up throughout a lot of the games -- which, of course, SE ultimately acknowledged openly in the U20 Scenario Ultimania.

Also was the one who got me interested in playing "ICO" and "Shadow of the Colossus" right before the latter came out. We kind of fell out of touch around that time (my fault; well, my ex's fault), but I've always thought fondly of him. Kind of owe him a lot, intellectually speaking.

Rather than having him read that outdated LTD Analysis article on the front page here, have him just come post on the forum. Or at least tell him to read the newer version of it in my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ, please:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html

I'm actually working on an updated version of the article that I'll be posting on the front page here at TLS sometime soon. I wish it were ready now, dammit. Oh well. I'm just going to have to hustle and get it done.

Anyway, he's definitely anti-shipping, to the point of hardly being neutral on the matter. Though that may change as he sees more info.

I doubt his feelings will ever be that strong for Tifa, since he practically spurned her prior to Advent Children, and scars like that seldom heal well, especially for Tifa.

Seeing as he hadn't read Case of Tifa at the time of making this comment, he definitely was off-base about Cloud spurning her prior to AC. And the suggestion that his feelings for her not being that strong is inaccurate for obvious reasons.

Like I said, feelings and love are two different interpretations, and because different sources say different things from different translations, that passage no longer becomes reliable as a source for argument. The phrase is neither romantic nor un-romantic. It is neutral expression that explains what occured.

There aren't any other translations for the "communicated feelings" quotes, and everyone who isn't Anastar agrees that the phrasing itself indicates romance. Hell, even Blade said that above, but seemed to shy away from acknowleding it here.

I also doubt that he's aware of the Ultimania quotes that contrast the two versions of the scene -- one that has a conversation in which feelings are communicated against one that has a conversation lacking feelings. So he's unaware that even a "neutral expression that explains what occurred" is telling us the High Affection scene happened when it's saying that feelings were communicated.

The best way to analyze this isn't by what the books or guides have said.

Probably obvious, but Blade never was a big fan of metatext. He definitely very much subscribes to the "Death of the Author" philosophy.

Which I do as well, but I think it's important to set that aside when discussing canon.

Tifa's quote "Word's aren't the only way to express your feelings" has more to do with facing adversity and confusion and doubting oneself (which Cloud did) and has little to do with love itself.

As Que pointed out, it's very much a romantic line in the eyes of the game's creators.

In any case, Cloud lacks confidence to admit any sort of feelings for anyone, much less Tifa.

So therefore that passage isn't about Romance, since the feelings expressed weren't mutual.

Let me rephrase what my last paragraph said:

Tifa expressed her feelings, Cloud did not, though Tifa was optimistic in saying she knew how he felt even if he didn't say anything. That's essentially what happened.

The specific phrasing used in the Japanese requires that the communication runs both ways.



Anyway, yeah, Blade never cared much for shipping in general, nor the LTD in particular, even before AC came out. That said, he loves the character of Cloud, and considers it highly worthwhile to try getting inside his head.

I do think I remember him making a comment or two that a CxT outcome seemed likely given time, but he was always of the opinion that Cloud was pretty fucked up inside and wasn't ready for a romance with anyone during any of the time we get to spend with him.

Long story short, he don't give a fuck about the LTD or metatextual input, but it was interesting to see his thoughts on this nonetheless.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't know how to feel about the notion that kids are doomed to a live of social and emotional retardation if they are the child of a single parent.

Or "mutual" referring to how they express their feelings. I don't see how that follows on from &#20114;&#12356;&#12398;&#24819;&#12356;. The fact that it uses &#12398; would be referring to feelings, and I can't really see anything talking about how they are express feelings being confirmed.

Or how having an opinion about fictional pairings of characters equates to "shipping" and suddenly having some kind of emotional attachment to it that gets in the way of making objective conclusions.

idk

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ummm... did they see a different version of that scene than I did?

He must have. Not only aren't they on the ship, but Cloud also does not move, apart from turning in place.

Not YOU, other people keep bringing up the definition trying to say that apathetic can also have feeling.

Apathy is, at its basest root, a word meaning without emotion. They're being stupid.


And Blade seems to have an axe to grind against the idea of Cloud in a romance, as well as for the idea that Cloud is a 'lone wolf' type. He's rather the opposite. Cloud has never wanted to be the lone wolf type. He's always wanted to be part of things. He just feels closed off from others for one reason or the other.

I'll agree, Cloud might have PTSD, but PTSD is no permanent impediment to romance.

In short, I agree Cloud's fucked up. I disagree with you on the particulars of how he is.

I also agree, we need to consider Cloud's Perspective, but I'm not certain that he's doing that himself, rather, he's looking at what he sees as Cloud's perspective.

And yes, lure him over here so that we may boil his bones for our stew discuss this with him directly.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I already invited him but I don't know if he's interested in debating. Like I said, he doesn't care about the LTD, but maybe he would like to defend his perspective on Cloud. For now, he's busy translating GG stuff.

But his interpretation on Cloud's psyche really does spur up new arguments to this debate and I do hope he comes over here and join us. It will be nice to have an anti-shipper around and if you're familiar with Guilty Gear you'll be surprised that he doesn't accept that Baldhead is Faust. And I wonder how he'll react to Clerith evidences.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I already invited him but I don't know if he's interested in debating. Like I said, he doesn't care about the LTD, but maybe he would like to defend his perspective on Cloud. For now, he's busy translating GG stuff.

It's okay, we can wait ten minutes.
I kid, I kid.

But his interpretation on Cloud's psyche really does spur up new arguments to this debate and I do hope he comes over here and join us.

The thing is, Cloud's psyche IS the central question of this whole shebang. We need to unravel and properly parse it, but we have a leg up in that regards- we've been inside it. We've listened in on his subconscious.
It seems, though, that so many people have a vested interest in ignoring what Cloud himself has to say in favor of a particular image of Cloud, whether it be Clerith, anti-ship, or even some C/T variations on our dorkmeister of ceremonies.

It will be nice to have an anti-shipper around and if you're familiar with Guilty Gear you'll be surprised that he doesn't accept that Baldhead is Faust. And I wonder how he'll react to Clerith evidences.

I thought Fausty being Baldy was confirmed in the materials, though.

 

[Danseru-kun]

It seems, though, that so many people have a vested interest in ignoring what Cloud himself has to say in favor of a particular image of Cloud, whether it be Clerith, anti-ship, or even some C/T variations on our dorkmeister of ceremonies.

Agreed. I think Cloud pretty much regained himself in the LS event, though there are still occasional drawbacks, he's pretty much healthy mentally and coping with Aerith's death little by little. He sees taking care of Denzel as an atonement and he was doing fine. But it was Geostigma that damaged him again, in addition to that, Denzel is also dying. He's afraid to face loss again because he's happy with his family and doesn't like being helpless. Thus, he left and faced his incoming death alone. Those problems affected his relationship with Tifa but in the end AC those are resolved. There's no reason to think that it will only get worse.

Even in AC, Cloud and Tifa had the dilly dally talk and that pretty much shows that Tifa understands his situation. After than in the battle with Bahamut SIN Cloud told Tifa "I've lost some weight because of that dilly-dallying." In the end of the movie, his line "I'm not alone" (with a smile)can mean two things: he knew Aerith and Zack will be watching over him and that he has family and friends. The buster sword on Aerith's church and the flowers on Zack's grave MUST symbolize something positive am I right?

Gee I already posted my reply to his post below. But I think you guys will be able to supply more quotes regarding Cloud and his family.

I thought Fausty being Baldy was confirmed in the materials, though.

Spoiler

It's never been stated in any material that Baldy is Faust. Even the relationship chart features both of them and they are linked together as "the same person????" But given that Faust has Baldy's baldness, height, moveset and the exact same background it's pretty obvious. The best evidence is when Venom called Faust "Dr. Ba-" before getting interrupted.

As for his reply, he's going to join the forums but here's what he said for now. When he arrives here I sure he'll be able to emphasize the points he's trying to make.

The reason I find Lifestream White/Black Significant is because it essentially ties in Cloud's emotional disconnect from Tifa and how he was reconstructed as a Sephiroth clone. Aerith probably senses that's why Sephiroth is after Cloud, because he carries some fragment of memory of "Jenova" within him. I said before that Cloud's mind operated mechanically, this is because for a long time he was running on automatic using his "Zack persona" as a coping mechanism for trauma, which Aerith instantly recognized. Once that fell away, he basically had to re-learn how to do things like eating, sleeping, talking, and doing stuff, even more so after recovering from Mako-poisoning catatonia.

He still wanted to be of help to Tifa and the others, because he still considered them "friends"...but learning how to be "lovers" with Tifa probably wasn't do-able from the get-go and probably still isn't. He's learning to love others though, don't get me wrong. However, his decision to "leave because he felt he was happy with his family" just sounds like nonsense.

I think Aerith's decision to "not manifest herself" was a wise one as it probably would've traumatized Cloud even more than Sephiroth's return had.

I'm just waiting for my registration confirmation e-mail when writing this:

Well I just read SoS's LTD article...and my head hurts.

I think his analysis of Cloud's relationship (or lack thereof) with Tifa in Kingdom Hearts II pretty much nails it. To me, Cloud's relationship with Tifa is like nursing a bad drink. It tastes awful, and it can be bitter at times, but it's the only drink in the bar...and drinking something is better than nothing. All that meta stuff from Cleriths just makes my head spin. Memories in the Final Fantasy world don't exactly work like a complete consciousness if what occured when Sephiroth was reborn is to be believed.

Honestly I hate the idea that shippers focus on the "initial point of contact" based on the Metatext regarding Cloud's choice of relationships (the idea that all they care about is who Cloud chose FIRST over who Cloud STAYED with). What's more, a good relationship shouldn't be all difficult, even if there are hard parts, but so far all I've seen of Cloti is hardship, which isn't exactly indicative of a good relationship in my eyes and thereby passable as a successful "ship". I have yet to read that Post-Dirge of Cerberus Turks story material you mentioned, but it better be convincing.

The way things in the Compilation get released and "changed" I'm instantly reminded of all the mess Capcom does when updating their games. That's why I lose interest in this Meta stuff quickly and focus on the final product....also I don't focus on the product based on the author's interpretation per se. I focus on how the words in the work ultimately express themselves to an audience. Maybe the author intended for Aerith to be with Cloud, but that not be how the audience by majority interprets it.

As for me, I say Cloud would happily go the Harem route. Aerith will manifest in Tifa's body and there will be a Lifestream Three-way (said tongue in cheek). I say this because Cloud often behaves like an idiot towards Tifa. Not answering and looking dumbfounded when she asks him if he loves her.

Tell SoS that I remember the whole "Chocobo Stable Incident" with Tifa, and I really don't think anything came of it. Cloud is that much of an idiot.

My response to the author vs work part:

The problem with focusing on the work itself is that there will be different interpretations and you cannot prove that's you're more objective than the other. Even your analysis of Cloud has input from your personal experiences and people has their other influences. Therefore, it will be difficult to establish facts. However in the case of FFVII, when we acknowledge creator statements the next we have to do is to analyze if it is justified by the material. Official statements are constant and can be considered facts, it's just the matter of "do we see it in there?" Many agree that to some degree it is justified.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It will be interesting to talk to him again, though I would stress to everyone that citing the various reasons his analysis doesn't fit the canon (e.g. official statements that Tifa is the only one Cloud has opened his heart to between FFVII and AC) won't get you anywhere. This is very likely going to be a discussion purely of the primary source material.

Should be interesting, as -- without secondary sources and the various metatext that makes CxT an open-and-shut case -- there may be a fair enough case for ambiguity or neutrality to be made. I still doubt it, but it might be doable.

I still think Case of Tifa doesn't make sense at all without the High Affection scene taking place and being assumed as something that clears the air between them in a romantic fashion ("I mean something kind of different"); and that Tifa looks like Edward Cullen or the "Paranormal Activity" entity if she's waiting for Cloud to fall asleep without being in the room as he falls to sleep -- but we'll see.

 

[Vendel]

And Blade seems to have an axe to grind against the idea of Cloud in a romance, as well as for the idea that Cloud is a 'lone wolf' type. He's rather the opposite. Cloud has never wanted to be the lone wolf type. He's always wanted to be part of things. He just feels closed off from others for one reason or the other.

I'll agree, Cloud might have PTSD, but PTSD is no permanent impediment to romance.

In short, I agree Cloud's fucked up. I disagree with you on the particulars of how he is.

I also agree, we need to consider Cloud's Perspective, but I'm not certain that he's doing that himself, rather, he's looking at what he sees as Cloud's perspective.

This person may look down on shipping. But really this is the same mindset as a C/A shipper telling us Cloud loves Aerith because....well just look at him. He is miserable with Tifa. And he looks at Aerith with so much love! Or the people who make up reasons to dislike a character. The Tifa bashing in particular is hilarious. Because she doesn't love Cloud for himself. She wants him to be someone different. That is why she is so clingy and always nags him.



But this got me thinking about one scene in particular. In AC/C when Tifa is laying into Cloud in the bedroom. Saying that he hates being alone and such. We know Tifa was spot on. Clouds words and actions support that. Plus what the ultimania and such back up.

But when someone looks at that scene and thinks that Tifa is just wasting her breath. Either because Cloud is a headcase lone wolf or because he is in love with a dead woman (or whatever). It just comes off as dishonest. Or very mistaken. To support either one of those positions you have to tear down the entire narrative and rebuild it from the ground up. Leaving out the bits that are inconvenient.

It will be interesting to talk to him again, though I would stress to everyone that citing the various reasons his analysis doesn't fit the canon (e.g. official statements that Tifa is the only one Cloud has opened his heart to between FFVII and AC) won't get you anywhere. This is very likely going to be a discussion purely of the primary source material.

Being obstinate about something like that isn't going to be helpful to the discussion. Plus (as I have shown above) with everything I have seen so far it just comes off as someone ignoring what they don't like so they can support their own narrative.

 

[Blade]

Okay, guys, I'm here, lay into me if you want, but keep in mind, my mind is a little rusty on FFVII.

I really wasn't aware of the "High affection" version of the scene, as I often chose Aerith cuz well...she was the one who died. Also I never played the original Japanese version as opposed to International (I assume U.S. version = International?)

In retrospect though, I honestly believe that Aerith would not have been as prominent a figure in Cloud's heart and mind if she didn't die...and that strongly suggests a major foundation for what Clerith fans support, at least in my limited observation.

That's not to say that Aerith didn't have feelings for Cloud, oh no...that's dead obvious. But, my interpretation is that Aerith mostly felt sympathy for Cloud and sensed that he was basically channeling Zack who was the boy she originally liked. Maybe that's not what the authors intended or translators for that matter...but that was the message that was construed to ME.

Regarding Tifa, I always felt that if she'd only get a proper moment to ask Cloud how he really felt DIRECTLY (as in, point blank "Do you love me??? YES OR NO!") that maybe Cloud wouldn't have dithered so much. His sense of love always felt off-kilter to me, even with his flashbacks regarding his own mother. He just kinda comes off as the type who takes everyone around him for granted.

And then there's that whole ambiguity thing in Dissidia that just plain annoyed me to no end. (Cloud says that he can fight even if he has doubts...what the HELL does that even MEAN????).

Honestly I liked what Exdeath says to him "DOUBTS...AND MEMORIES...ARE FRIVOLOUS!!!" I like it because it's like Cloud is so hung up on a bunch of things that aren't really that important.

I know someone asked me about the scene with Tifa on the Airship. My memory was hazy regarding that particular scene, so I went to Gamefaqs script (by Asch the Hated) to recall the setting a little...and what came to mind was the idea that there was a point where Tifa just wanted to sit and watch the sun come up, while Cloud was left with a sense that he had to keep moving not to get lost in his own thoughts. I underlined the parts of this passage that struck me as strange:

Tifa: Umm... G, good morning... Cloud. Give me a little longer... Just a little
bit longer... This day will never come again... So let me have this moment...

Cloud: Yeah... okay. This is probably the last time we'll have together......

The next morning...

Tifa: .........

Cloud: We'd better go.

Tifa: But, I still...!?

Cloud: It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't
have to go on alone.

Tifa: Yes... That's right!

Cloud: Okay! Let's go!

Cloud and Tifa embarks the Highwind.

Tifa: The airship is too big for just the two of us. Yeah, it's a little lonely
without everyone.

Cloud: Don't worry. It'll be okay. I'll make a big enough ruckus for everyone.
Besides, I'm the pilot. No more flying around casually like before. We won't
have time to feel lonely.

It just struck me as odd that Tifa would be quiet and subdued, and Cloud would be the one getting restless here (assuming no other party members returned to the ship).

I'm probably sure this isn't the high affection scene, but all the same, I was going by what I was reading and not what the characters were actually DOING in the scene while talking.

Also, regarding my take on it all...honestly, I get this gut feeling that Aerith and Tifa would probably fight over Cloud at some point...so this might very well go the harem route.

 

[Blade]

Also why does a Smiley face say "angry"...?

Also, bear in mind that it was Danseru-Kun that dragged me into this, so you have been warned.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Welcome Blade! Have fun in this forum! You're not allowed to edit your post until you've posted a certain number so double check.

In retrospect though, I honestly believe that Aerith would not have been as prominent a figure in Cloud's heart and mind if she didn't die...and that strongly suggests a major foundation for what Clerith fans support, at least in my limited observation.

I agree with that. But what impact she made in his life is definitely huge. However in this debate many of us here believe that the possibility of Cloud loving Aerith romantically will not discredit all the evidence that Cloud currently loves Tifa.

The problem is that some people use arguments against C/T as C/A evidence. Like what Vendel said, some people interpret the problems between Cloud and Tifa as a proof that Aerith is the one Cloud desires, not Tifa. You also believe that C/T is problem-ridden but at least you don't use "romantic feelings for Aerith" as the reason for it.

Also, the main question in this debate is what is canon, or the couple blessed/mandated/indicated by SE. If the compilation was able to justify that is another question.

Regarding Tifa, I always felt that if she'd only get a proper moment to ask Cloud how he really felt DIRECTLY (as in, point blank "Do you love me??? YES OR NO!") that maybe Cloud wouldn't have dithered so much.

Tifa made sure that Cloud was asleep that time and when he awaken Tifa changed the question to "Do you love Marlene?." He didn't hear or properly hear "Do you love me?"

I know someone asked me about the scene with Tifa on the Airship. My memory was hazy regarding that particular scene...

Since I'm in out college compulab, I cannot give you the link of the youtube videos of the two versions. Type "FFVII Highwind Scene" and it may appear. But I'm telling you that the visuals of the scene help. I suggest you watch that first to refresh you memory.
[/QUOTE]

Also, bear in mind that it was Danseru-Kun that dragged me into this, so you have been warned.

Hey, I just asked you to translate the phrase. I didn't tell you to interpret their relationship! Also I kept telling people here that you don't care about the LTD and that you might not want to debate. *is defensive* So YOU dragged yourself into this No honestly, I did invite you and it's nice to have someone new here.