The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Note that when I say cleriths in this thread i usually mean people who think clerith is canon and not people who simply ship them.

NORG said:

I thought Ryu was king.

And wtf BlankBeat? First you call Tres King but then you say that position belongs to Vendel or Ryu? The again, I guess that should be expected from a clerith, given your tendencies to say the ltd is up to interpretation but then saying clerith is clearly the intended interpretation.

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I was referring to either of them being the top backup cheerleader, not King. And you, my friend, probably wouldn't even make the team because all you do is troll and insult. Anyway -- hopefully I can get around to replying to everyone else's posts soon

NORG said:

Note that when I say cleriths in this thread i usually mean people who think clerith is canon and not people who simply ship them.

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Oh well shit, my bad then...

NORG said:

Note that when I say cleriths in this thread i usually mean people who think clerith is canon and not people who simply ship them.

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I don't think it's fair to automatically think that Cleriths who claim their pairing is canon have faulty logic/ hypocrites or whatever. That thinking just creates hostility even before they engage in debate.

Intellectually dishonest debaters however.. they're just bound to piss people off for obvious reasons.

The LTD is a scary place. That's why the majority of our members avoid this thread like it's guaranteed to give you cancer. The rest of the board is lovely, post more elsewhere and don't limit yourself to this one and "Devotion" like so many Cleriths who join do. Then you'll see why people stick around.

I have no more to say about the LTD, I made a post a while back that contains all my opinions on the subject. I do think this thread is important, it often has good debates and generates discussion. But I would love it if people could just make sure what they're quoting or using as evidence is verifiable, source-able proven fact before they use it as a basis for their arguments, because this is how distrust has come about on both sides.

Happy debating everyone

Now, I just want to say that I do believe the LTD is up to interpretation. I've already provided the quote where Nomura talks about how everyone is free to interpret SE's work differently. I'm simply explaining why my interpretation is Cloud x Aerith.

And yes, some of the evidence in favor of Cloud x Aerith is obvious, IMO. SE has provided evidence for both pairings that is obvious. What I get frustrated with is the downplaying and dismissal of Clerith evidence, while Cloti evidence is given this over-inflated sense of importance and superiority. Who decides which evidence supersedes what?

To me, both pairings have obvious pieces of evidence, which is why the LTD will never be solved. It simply comes down to everyone's own interpretation.

Here's some of why my personal interpretation is Clerith:

Even if the HAHW scene is canon, CoT portrays an extremely dysfunctional relationship that began to go downhill once Cloud started his delivery service. There is also no explicit romantic moments shared between them in CoT. Then, in Advent Children, Cloud and Tifa are portrayed as distant and often contentious. If the HAHW scene happened, the romantic feelings that were expressed under the Highwind were completely gone by the time Advent Children began.

In fact, Nomura's quote about having no idea if Cloud and Tifa develop a romantic relationship after the game ends is proof that a romantic *relationship* does not necessarily develop from the HAHW scene. Nomura's quote is backed up by what we see portrayed in CoT and AC.

In addition, SE says that Tifa's irritation with Cloud was not just because he was dragging around the past, but because the reason might, "perhaps be related to Aerith".

Now, it is worth nothing that Aerith has been described by SE as a "love rival," which suggests Tifa's jealously stems from the romantic relationship she sees between Cloud and Aerith. In addition, there's also the quote about a, "…hero wavering between two heroines…"

Given these quotes and the repeated manifestation of Tifa's jealously over Cloud and Aerith's relationship throughout FFVII's compilation, it seems as though SE is providing us with a pattern: Tifa sees a romantic bond between Cloud and Aerith that she is jealous of and wishes she had.

Again -- Aerith is considered a "love rival" and SE says a "hero waves between two heroines."

Tifa is jealous of the other heroine our hero is wavering between.
Tifa is jealous of her love rival's relationship with the man she loves.

Therefore, it makes perfect sense to me that Tifa's jealously clearly stems from the insecurity she feels about her dysfunctional relationship with Cloud. She knows in her heart that Cloud doesn't feel the same way about her as he does towards Aerith. Her jealously stems from the fact that she wishes she had the same bond Cloud has with Aerith (ie: a romantic bond that developed in the physical world and has carried over into the spiritual world).

Cloud and Aerith continue to have a special connection that Tifa is jealous of even after Aerith dies, which is why Tifa continues to be jealous of their relationship when she finds out Cloud has been living in Aerith's Church.

According to SE, Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of Cloud, which is why he repeatedly visits her Church and is even seen living in her Church. The Church, or the place where he shares a spiritual connection with Aerith, is also known as Cloud's Promised Land -- or his place of supreme happiness.

This "love beyond death" theme is a common theme in Final Fantasy (Tidus/Yuna, Shuyin/Lenne, Laguna/Raine, Ashe/Rasler, etc.) Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, which is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC.

I'd also like to talk about this quote:

"Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith." ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix website

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Nojima says he doesn't want to delve into the topics of love, marriage, or family (but he could have easily delved into the subject and said Cloud and Tifa will never get married and that Cloud doesn't love Tifa). But what he does mention is that things, "won't go well between Cloud and Tifa," and that things might have, "…gone well with Aerith."

To me, this further illustrates the special relationship between Cloud and Aerith that Tifa has been repeatedly jealous of.

Tifa see's that Cloud and Aerith have a special connection that even Nojima says probably would have turned out better than the relationship we see develop between Cloud and Tifa. At one point, Tifa admits she doesn't even know if Cloud loves her or not.

Tifa sees the same thing Nojima hints at -- Cloud and Tifa's relationship is not as strong as the relationship Cloud and Aerith have. This is exactly why Tifa is jealous of the relationship her love rival has with Cloud -- her love rivals relationship with Cloud is stronger than the relationship she has with Cloud.

Cloud and Aerith are comfortable with each other. They make each other laugh. They are natural together. On the other hand, Cloud and Tifa have a strained relationship. Tifa treats Cloud like a child, and he often times doesn't respond to her because he simply doesn't want to continue fighting with her.

Nojima's quote is essentially saying that Cloud and Aerith's connection was stronger and would have turned out better than the relationship we see between Cloud and Tifa. This is exactly why Tifa is jealous of the connection she sees Cloud having with Aerith. Tifa wishes her connection with Cloud was the same or as strong as his connection with Aerith.

This premise that Nojima speaks of is backed up by the dysfunction we see between Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC. This premise is also reenforced by the beautiful spiritual connection we see between Cloud and Aerith, which basically shows us that things most likely would have gone better between Cloud and Aerith if Aerith had lived.

Now a lot of people have made comments about how when I say the hand reach scene in AC is the most romantic scene that exists between Cloud and either Aerith or Tifa. I've been told I can't definitively say it is inherently romantic. But aside from sex or a kiss, holding hands is a common behavior that lovers do together. In fact, I'd say holding hands is more romantic than a hug. Typically, people only hold hands with family members or romantic interests. Holding hands is commonly associated with love or romantic couples. In addition, under the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as it is portrayed in FFVII and in AC, it seems obvious that this piece of imagery is to be viewed romantically.

But the inherent problem with imagery is that it is always up to interpretation.

However, does anyone think the burial scene would have been crafted in the same way if Red XIII had died? Or if Barret had died? Or Cid?

The point I'm trying to make is that the burial scene, to me, portrayed a man laying to rest a woman he loved romantically. The cut-scene focused specifically on Cloud holding Aerith very intimately in his arms. In addition, the cut-scene did not include any characters besides Cloud and Aerith.

If Barret had died, I can guarantee you that the cut-scene would have been very different. But again -- this is only my interpretation based off imagery. And imagery is always ambiguous.

However, given all that had occurred before the burial scene (Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, Cloud promising to take Aerith on the Highwind, Cloud laughing for only one character -- Aerith, Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, and the Cosmo Canyon conversation...) I believe the imagery during the burial scene suggests Cloud laying to rest someone he was romantically involved with. This is further supported by SE's koibito quote, the quote that says FFVII has a hero that wavers between two love interests, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith (flower field ending in Dissidia, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the ending of Kingdom Hearts in unison with Nomura's quote). When you combine all of these things together (official quotes, in-game moments, cameo appearances, etc.), it is not hard to see how certain pieces of imagery between Cloud and Aerith are inherently romantic -- especially the hand reach scene and the burial scene.

Another example I have is Cait Sith's wedding prediction. The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" -- this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future.

So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad. SE killed off a romantic love interest to Cloud because it would be more impactful to the gamer. If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer.

One of the biggest reasons Aerith's death is so sad is because she wasn't just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game.

Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world. Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?

Another example is the scene where Cloud's Mom tells Cloud he should have an "older girlfriend". Most Cloti's always say that this scene proves nothing and blah, blah, blah.

But again -- I'm looking at it from SE's intent. Obviously Cloud's Mom saying this means nothing. But what was SE's intent for including this? Why would they choose for Cloud to have this flashback while he was sleeping in Aerith's house?

Just to provide some context: Cloud had just met Aerith. He agreed to be her bodyguard for the price of one date. He had just spent time laughing with her. Protecting her.

Then while Cloud is sleeping in her house, SE decides to throw in this flashback where Cloud's Mother talks about girlfriends and dating someone older. Then right after this flashback is over, you see Cloud in his room and Aerith in her room.

So again, it seems OBVIOUS why SE decided to include this flashback -- they wanted to set Cloud and Aerith up as a romantic love interest.

They didn't include this flashback at another point in the game. They specifically decided to show this flashback right after Cloud had just met Aerith, and while he was sleeping in her house. Then right after the flashback was over, BOOM, you see Cloud in his room and Aerith in her room. Clearly this was meant to set these two up as a romantic love interest.

Given the context, SE's intent for including this flashback is VERY clear.

I just recently re-played disc 1 of FFVII, and I was flabbergasted at how obvious this was. I had forgotten that this flashback occurred while Cloud was sleeping in Aerith's house, which is why I initially brushed it off and didn't see it as strong evidence.

But come on -- anyone with half a brain can see why SE set this up the way they did. Cloud and Aerith had just met, Cloud was sleeping in Aerith's house, and right after this flashback, you see Cloud in his room and Aerith in her room. This was an obvious move by SE to set Cloud and Aerith up as a romantic love interest to the gamer.

But again...this is imagery so I can't be certain what SE was trying to convey to the gamer. But I think common sense suggests it was meant to be a clue to the gamer that they should start viewing Cloud and Aerith under a romantic lense.

Sometimes I think we need to focus less on arguing about the validity of the flashback and the fact that Aerith would be an "older" girlfriend for Cloud (although, again, it seems obvious why SE would make Aerith older AND include this "older girlfriend" flashback in her house). But we should really be focusing more on the intent of SE. The same logic can be applied to Cait Sith's prediction, like I talked about above. Obviously Cait Sith is unreliable. Obviously his prediction didn't come true. But what was SE's intent for including a prediction about Cloud and Aerith's romantic future? Why did they call it a wedding prediction? The intent should be obvious, the same as it is for including this flashback while Cloud was sleeping in Aerith's house.

I'd also like to say a few words about the FTOIL page:
The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

In addition, no other place talks about the Highwind scene being romantic besides the FTOIL page. But as I said above, the FTOIL page is confined and restricted to romance, so the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include on that page. This doesn't mean the FTOIL page canonizes this version, it simply means it was the only appropriate version to include on that page.

Furthermore, if you argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, can’t you also argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene variable?

And even if the FTOIL page makes the HAHW scene canon and clearly romantic, Nomura nukes it by saying he has "no clue" if Cloud and Tifa develop a relationship. This means the HAHW scene can occur and a romantic *relationship* doesn't necessarily develop. If Nomura doesn't have a clue, no one else should pretend they have a clue, either. Plus, nothing in CoT or AC contradict his quote.

Nojima also says that there is a premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa. So even if a relationship develops, it doesn't necessarily go well or last.

I have too many feelings today so I'm going to vomit some of them into the LTD thread sorry everyone

BlankBeat said:

Even if the HAHW scene is canon, CoT portrays an extremely dysfunctional relationship that began to go downhill once Cloud started his delivery service.

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Okay. I really don't mean this to be offensive but it's...probably offensive anyway, so I apologize, but I really have to know. Are you, or have you ever been, in a long-term relationship? Because I see a lot of people throw out the argument that CloTi is so dysfunctional and I think I might've read it that way too, once upon a time, before I met girlfriend-face. But seriously, the issues they have in CoT are...really normal. Most folks I know who are in serious relationships go through them at some point. I know everyone has different standards and different thresholds of what they'll put up with in a relationship, and I'm not trying to judge that, but I've had worse arguments and worse issues than they have with my own damn girlfriend, and none of it's been a relationship-ender yet.

I'll be honest: when I see this argument I tend to assume a lot about the relationship history of the person who's making it. So please, prove me wrong, because I hate making blanket assumptions.

BlankBeat said:

Now a lot of people have made comments about how when I say the hand reach scene in AC is the most romantic scene that exists between Cloud and either Aerith or Tifa. I've been told I can't definitively say it is inherently romantic. But aside from sex or a kiss, holding hands is a common behavior that lovers do together. In fact, I'd say holding hands is more romantic than a hug. Typically, people only hold hands with family members or romantic interests. Holding hands is commonly associated with love or romantic couples. In addition, under the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as it is portrayed in FFVII and in AC, it seems obvious that this piece of imagery is to be viewed romantically.

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The reason people take umbrage with you viewing this as inherently romantic is because it is used with several non-romantic examples in the canon that you're talking about. Hand-holding, even the specific imagery of someone reaching for someone else's hand, isn't inherently romantic in this canon...unless you also think Aeris/Kadaj is an obvious pairing? I'll grant you Zack/Angeal; they're pretty shippy.

Based on this:

This "love beyond death" theme is a common theme in Final Fantasy (Tidus/Yuna, Shuyin/Lenne, Laguna/Raine, Ashe/Rasler, etc.) Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, which is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC.

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you seem to want to argue that we should look at the ways similar themes/imagery are used within this particular series so I think it's fair to compare Cloud/Aeris to Kadaj/Aeris and say, look, the hand-reach isn't inherently romantic. If you want to view it as romantic contact between Cloud and Aeris, fine, be my guest, please! But there's nothing inherently romantic about one FFVII character reaching for another.

Also, Vincent/Lu is actually gross and dysfunctional so I'm not sure why you would want Cloud/Aeris to thematically echo them, but to each their own.

Also can you please stop saying Nomura says he has "no clue" about Cloud/Tifa because 知らない can also mean he doesn't give a crap and it's not like that hurts your point anyway.

JayM said:

I have too many feelings today so I'm going to vomit some of them into the LTD thread sorry everyone
Okay. I really don't mean this to be offensive but it's...probably offensive anyway, so I apologize, but I really have to know. Are you, or have you ever been, in a long-term relationship? Because I see a lot of people throw out the argument that CloTi is so dysfunctional and I think I might've read it that way too, once upon a time, before I met girlfriend-face. But seriously, the issues they have in CoT are...really normal. Most folks I know who are in serious relationships go through them at some point. I know everyone has different standards and different thresholds of what they'll put up with in a relationship, and I'm not trying to judge that, but I've had worse arguments and worse issues than they have with my own damn girlfriend, and none of it's been a relationship-ender yet.

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Without evidence that clearly establishes they are a romantic couple to begin with, I don't really see the point in arguing about this for very long. But I'll bite.

Of course couples fight. I've had plenty of experience with this. But the relationship I see between Cloud and Tifa is almost entirely negative. In CoT and in AC, the relationship portrayed is highly negative. In fact, it's negative more than it is positive. And a relationship that is negative more than it is positive should be ended, or is proof a romantic relationship never existed.

Typically, couples enjoy a honeymoon stage before problems arise or before descending into constant bickering. Where was Cloud and Tifa's honeymoon stage?

If we want to base this whole thing on how couples typically are, I'd say Cloud and Tifa are not typical in the least.

So although the argument that all couples have problems is valid, the relationship I see between Cloud and Tifa is nothing even close to how relationships typically begin and progress. So if we are going to compare Cloud and Tifa to "typical" couples and say problems makes them more of a "real," "typical" couple, I'd say the lack of romantic moments and the lack of "make-up" sex (or similar behavior) makes them equally atypical. Cloud and Tifa also never had a honeymoon period that is typical for most couples.

Most couples have high highs and low lows. They fight. They make-up. They fight. Then make-up again. Cloud and Tifa seem to mostly have low lows. They rarely get along or make-up. This is not typical of any relationship I've ever been in.

So sure, problems make them seem more like a real couple. But the obvious imbalance of negative interaction and positive interaction in both CoT and AC suggests they aren't a couple. Typical couples tend to have more of an equal balance of positive and negative interactions, IMO.

Couples also have a clear honeymoon period that firmly establishes them as a couple. Tifa and Cloud lacked this honeymoon period which would have firmly established them as a couple.

JayM said:

The reason people take umbrage with you viewing this as inherently romantic is because it is used with several non-romantic examples in the canon that you're talking about. Hand-holding, even the specific imagery of someone reaching for someone else's hand, isn't inherently romantic in this canon...unless you also think Aeris/Kadaj is an obvious pairing? I'll grant you Zack/Angeal; they're pretty shippy.

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Didn't SE say the hand reach scene in AC was paying homage to the scene in the original game?

And given the context of the original game (a hero wavering between two heroines, plus all the other examples I listed in my previous post) it seems obvious that the hand reach between Cloud and Aerith should be viewed romantically because of the evidence that has come before it.

A lot of people say that because Cloud and Tifa have a different history, it makes the context of them living together different.

I'd say the history between Cloud and Aerith makes the hand reach scene clearly different than the hand reach between Aeris/Kadj.

I think my reasoning in the ltd is a lot different from some members because I'm not particularly passionate about canon, but I strongly, strongly dislike the idea that CloudxTifa is somehow a poisonous, terrible relationship that destroys the characters.

No wonder videogames rarely reflect mature or dynamic views on relationships, because here we have two characters going through hard emotional times, are depicted as having the difficult conversations that couples should go through, and fans cry about how dysfunctional and incompatible they are.

And this is despite the fact that rather than just ruminating on the issue, they are shown having conversations, sometimes fights yes, and sometimes soft moments of encouragement. The book shows that it is hard for them to talk about certain things, but it also shows that they are working it out.

I disagree that the book shows them as entirely negative, I actually read it like a family that truly loved each other, but when personal issues began to tear at them, they weren't sure what to do. But slowly, carefully, they began to talk about it and sort out the mess.

It was only when Cloud got sick did things completely break down. Cloud had hints of depression before, and was visiting the church, but rather than Tifa say "don't go there" she said "let's go together." Indicating that she not only understood but that she was walking the path next to him.

It started going downhill not because the relationship itself was bad, it started going downhill because Cloud had been mindraped and drugged for years, watched his mother, hometown, Zack, and Aerith be obliterated in front of his eyes- and he blamed himself. This is not a matter of compatibility, it's a matter of self depreciation.

The same with Tifa, she was insecure because as a person, she isn't sure where she fits in with the ones she loved after losing her family and home twice, she realized that her actions hurt and even indirectly killed a number of people including the parents of her surrogate son, and she wasn't sure if she could ever make up for it. Tifa notes that she remembers Cloud's smile and she wonders if she imagined it. She didn't, he was happy, he was getting better, and then more tragedy struck.

But they do conquer their issues it. They do talk through it many, many times. Cloud reconciles with Tifa, Cloud reconciles with Marlene, and then Cloud heals Denzel. In CoT, they were actually on their way to tentatively solving the issues in CoT until Cloud got sick and the guilt and belief that he was worthless came full force again- to the point he needed Tifa, Aerith, Marlene, and Vincent to break him out of his stupor.

But they did. They didn't just get over their problems, they did it smiling. That's not dysfunctional, that's an accomplishment.

Tifa found fulfillment in her family, she mentions it. Cloud is happy in the family- it's shown in the little scenes where he interacts with the kids and his shop (and yes with Tifa) and if it's hard for someone to see in the novel (despite the fact that I think it's pretty obvious), the creators SAY he is happy with Tifa and co. There are a few things that are debatable but that isn't, it's confirmed with word of god.

Typically, couples enjoy a honeymoon stage before problems arise or before descending into constant bickering. Where was Cloud and Tifa's honeymoon stage?

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The chance was obliterated when kids started dying on the street, Tifa felt the full force of survivor's guilt, Cloud's mental issues kicked in, an entire world turned upside down, and they had to rebuild their lives from scratch.

You're right though, Cloud and Tifa isn't a kissukissu hug me kawaii rainbow romance, they never will be. They are the hard road of reconstructing self worth, comfort in each others lives, and rebuilding something they can love. It doesn't mean it's worth less.

BlankBeat said:

Couples also have a clear honeymoon period that firmly establishes them as a couple. Tifa and Cloud lacked this honeymoon period which would have firmly established them as a couple.

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Well shit I guess my gf and I aren't actually in a relationship since we didn't have a "honeymoon period"; I better let her know these twelve years have been a lieeeeeeeee.

SOME couples get a honeymoon period. Very lucky couples get a honeymoon period. It's not a requirement of a relationship, or even a good relationship; it's just luck. How much of a "honeymoon" you get has way more to do with the circumstances outside of your relationship than the love present inside of it. And I repeat, again, my assertion that Cloud and Tifa's relationship problems are quite normal: you really cannot expect two people with a lot of guilt and trauma and death in their lives to have the same relationship as a couple of happy-go-lucky college students.

Also, everything Splintered said.

BlankBeat said:

I'd say the history between Cloud and Aerith makes the hand reach scene clearly different than the hand reach between Aeris/Kadj.

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And I'd agree with you. And I'm glad you're agreeing with me that the hand reach itself is not inherently romantic: that this particular form of physical contact is dependent on context for its romantic overtones.

Splintered said:

You're right though, Cloud and Tifa isn't a kissukissu hug me kawaii rainbow romance, they never will be. They are the hard road of reconstructing self worth, comfort in each others lives, and rebuilding something they can love. It doesn't mean it's worth less.

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Out of my long post, I can't believe this is what is being focused on. But anyway -- my point is that many make the argument that Cloud and Tifa having issues makes them a more believable couple. But this argument has to work both ways. The fact that they never had a honeymoon phase makes them an unbelievable couple, IMO. The lack of a honeymoon phase means they were never clearly established to us, the gamers and/or viewers, as a romantic couple to begin with.

All we see is the variable Highwind scene and then right away we see issues develop between Cloud and Tifa. Without clear evidence that they developed a romantic relationship after the Highwind scene takes place, I find it hard to automatically view them as a romantic couple that is having problems rather than two friends that are having problems.

Nojima says there is a premise that things, "...won't go well between Cloud and Tifa." This insinuates the possibility that the romantic feelings expressed during the HAHW scene disappeared and never developed into a relationship. He also hints that things might have, "…gone well with Aerith." This hints at the stronger connection Cloud and Aerith have.

In addition, Nomura's quote completely backs up the idea that Cloud and Tifa never firmly established a romantic relationship because he has no idea if a relationship develops between them after the Highwind scene takes place.

Plus, Tifa's quote where she says her and Cloud aren't a "real family" backs this up as well. Tifa says they aren't a real family during a conversation where Cloud remains silent to much of what Tifa is saying. She says this when she essentially realizes her and Cloud are not interacting like a real family would. She basically sees that they are incompatible together and are not what a typical family consists of (ie: two people that are romantically involved and are able to use their love for one another to work through their problems). To me, it seems as though Cloud has little desire to work through the issues him and Tifa have.

Furthermore, the jealously Tifa feels over the relationship her "love rival" has with Cloud is because, IMO, she wishes her relationship with Cloud was like theirs.

Maidenofwar said:

To be fair he didn't say Materia Thief and Alantie are retarded, he trashed their essays

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That's like saying to be fair no one called you retarded and a moron, just your ideals! That means it's okay! That's silly.
Our thoughts and opinions are a part of WHO WE ARE.

For instance::
"I like that thing because of this reason"
other person::
"That's fucking retarded!"

How is that not offensive please don't pretend something isn't offensive when it is. I don't care if you are going to be a jerk but at least admit you're being one if you are instead of trying to cover up with some silly loop hole that no one is buying into. Sorry Maidenofwar that was directed at others, not at you lol.

To Splintered::
Yes, friends doing all of those things. Friends can do all of those things. Friends can start a family. I think their relationship is very complicated but also very one sided on Tifa's part. That's what makes it most complicated. It appears Cloud has lingering feelings for Aerith. People here say they believe Cloud loved Aerith at one point (some people here anyway) and I want to know when they think that faded. Faded just because she died? I don't think that's how love always works. Especially if Cloud never says anything about moving on in fact he's pining after her in AC. And no they're not like any other friends, I would call them BEST friends (Cloud and Tifa). But not lovers. There is something called:: More than friends, less than lovers.

I didn't say it was invalid it's just that I think one is more likely than the other and when I see the more prominent trope as you phrase it, appearing, that's the one I choose to believe in.
Oh so you are saying that the Church isn't his Promised Land UNTIL he awakens there and is surrounded by all of his friends - that makes sense, though I believe with it being such a place heavily connected to Aerith, it still means a bit more than what it appears to be to you.

I guess that should be expected from a clerith

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Is that REALLY necessary? :/
Why do you label people who like Clerith as bad people? You do realize that Cloud x Aerith is just a pairing not something people actually are or something that defines actual human beings and their reliability right? If you think that way you're sad.

Note that when I say cleriths in this thread i usually mean people who think clerith is canon and not people who simply ship them.

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Wow thanks for clarifying! That totally makes everything better wow I'm so happy you made that so clear to us award to you.

BlankBeat said:

Furthermore, the jealously Tifa feels over the relationship her "love rival" has with Cloud is because, IMO, she wishes her relationship with Cloud was like theirs.

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Same here. It's said Tifa sees Cloud and Aerith developing a relationship that is not like hers and Clouds... which implies Cloud loves Aerith.

In addition, Nomura's quote completely backs up the idea that Cloud and Tifa never firmly established a romantic relationship because he has no idea if a relationship develops between them after the Highwind scene takes place.

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But then why does he say he knows later on? D:


and why are you ignoring that what he actually said was he doesn't care? D:

Quexinos said:

But then why does he say he knows later on? D:

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If you are referring to Nomura's "truth" quote, we have no idea what the "truth" of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is. The truth of their relationship, IMO, is up to interpretation.

Quexinos said:

and why are you ignoring that what he actually said was he doesn't care? D:

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“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after Final Fantasy VII ended, but I don’t have any clue.”-Dorimaga magazine; Tetsuya Nomura; November, 2005 (after the release of Advent Children)

Sources:
English version: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1
Japanese version: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

Nomura doesn't have a clue if they are in a relationship for the two years after FFVII ends. The HAHW scene was in FFVII. Therefore, the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a relationship between Cloud and Tifa after the game ends. Since the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a relationship between Cloud and Tifa, you must use AC and AC only to prove they are in a relationship. The HAHW scene now means nothing because Nomura nukes it with his quote.

Nojima's quote also pokes holes in the idea that Cloud and Tifa form a romantic relationship, but I explain my reasoning for that in my previous two posts.

“For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after Final Fantasy VII ended, but I don’t have any clue.” -Dorimaga magazine; Tetsuya Nomura; November, 2005 (after the release of Advent Children)

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Yes that's the one we're talking about... and the actual translation is supposed to be "I don't care"...

or at least that's what I was gathering from what others were saying... was I wrong on that?

If you are referring to Nomura's "truth" quote, we have no idea what the "truth" of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is. The truth of their relationship, IMO, is up to interpretation.

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He ALSO says Tifa is a koibito to someone in reunion files. Even IF you think it's not Cloud, he clearly knows what their relationship is if Tifa is a koibito to someone.

Quexinos said:

Yes that's the one we're talking about... and the actual translation is supposed to be "I don't care"...

or at least that's what I was gathering from what others were saying... was I wrong on that?

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The translation I've seen is that Nomura doesn't have "any clue" if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship after FFVII ends. This means the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa. If Nomura doesn't know, fans shouldn't pretend they know either.

Is there a disagreement over the translation of this quote? Probably. Wouldn't be the first time.

You can, however, check the two sources I provided in my previous post and decide for yourself.

Quexinos said:

He ALSO says Tifa is a koibito to someone in reunion files. Even IF you think it's not Cloud, he clearly knows what their relationship is if Tifa is a koibito to someone.

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The bottom line is that the truth of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa is unknown. His quote says nothing definitively about the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Furthermore, AC does NOT show them as an obvious romantic couple, therefore the "truth" of their relationship could be that they will forever be utterly incompatible and will never work out.

The "truth" I see is the premise that Nojima speaks of -- that things do NOT go well between Cloud and Tifa: "First off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same." ~Nojima. He also isn't sure if Marlene and Denzel will be enough to help them work out their issues. Again -- maybe the truth is that they are forever doomed? We'll never know because the creators never say anything definitively about the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

To me, the premise that Nojima speaks of is backed up by the dysfunction we see between Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC. His quote also insinuates the possibility that the romantic feelings expressed during the HAHW scene disappeared quickly and never developed into a relationship. Or that the LAHW scene happened.

In addition, Nojima's premise that things might have gone "...well with Aerith" is also reenforced by the beautiful spiritual connection we see between Cloud and Aerith, which basically shows us that things most likely would have gone better between Cloud and Aerith if Aerith had lived. This beautiful connection is further reenforced by Tifa's repeated jealously. Why would Tifa be jealous over their friendship, especially in light of SE specifically saying a hero is wavering between two heroines and that Aerith is a "love rival". It seems obvious that Tifa is jealous of the connection her love rival has with Cloud.

To me, it appears that Tifa is very jealous of the relationship our hero has with the other heroine he is wavering between.

When you combine Nojima saying there's a premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa, with Nomura saying he has no clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship, it becomes clear that there is little proof that they are definitively in a romantic relationship post-FFVII despite the Highwind scene taking place.

We see nothing in CoT and AC that contradicts Nomura's statement because nothing definitively shows Cloud and Tifa as romantic lovers. Therefore, no one should pretend they have a clue if Cloud and Tifa are romantically involved since Nomura himself doesn't even have a clue.

Furthermore, what we see portrayed in CoT and AC further reenforces the idea from Nojima that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa post-FFVII.

Nomura's quote, Nojima's quote, and what we see in CoT and AC do NOT paint Cloud and Tifa as romantic lovers post-FFVII. In fact, all four of them together help paint the exact opposite picture.

As for bringing up the koibito quote -- well, SE specifically refers to Cloud as Aerith's koibito. So that point is moot.

Also -- does anyone have any questions or comments about my points regarding Cloud's Mom, Cait Sith's wedding prediction, the hand reach scene, and the burial scene?

PS: What do people think about the fact that Square Enix picked Cloud and Aerith as their Emperor and Empress for Final Fantasy Brigade. They become a "set" if you get them both.

Seems to follow along with their other romantic cameo appearances (Kingdom Hearts, FFT, FFIX).

I'll be back later, but Blanky, fuck you I'm no cheerleader and I have no king.

Toodles.

BlankBeat said:

PS: What do people think about the fact that Square Enix picked Cloud and Aerith as their Emperor and Empress for Final Fantasy Brigade. They become a "set" if you get them both.

Seems to follow along with their other romantic cameo appearances (Kingdom Hearts, FFT, FFIX).

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I think it's cute. I love Zack and Tifa being schoolboy/girl set too.

What do people think about Cloud dying to protect Tifa in Dissidia 012? Hurrying to save her from Sephiroth was something too. For someone who didn't want to fight, Cloud sure didn't think twice about raising his sword against someone from his own side, just because Tifa was threatened. Also the special effects they added specifically when you battle with Cloud and Tifa in their ACC outfits, what do people think about that? Oh, and when Tifa blinds Cloud with her light in KH2?

How about all the merchandise that always seem to pair Sephiroth and Cloud together? I mean, they always seemed so focused on each other in every other cameo they make. The homoerotic subtext isn't even all that subtle, with all the chasing and the "sword fighting". They're both so obviously obsessed with each other.

I, for one, am not very happy about the lack of Zack and Cloud cameos. Cameos are always romantic, after all. And I ship Clack.

BlankBeat said:

How does Pinnochio prove it wrong? Pinnochio has no love interest, so they show him coming together with Geppetto. But for virtually everyone who has a love interest, they show the two love interests reuniting at the end of the game.

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And for people who have friends, it shows friends reuniting, or homes, it shows them returning home, and that's a lot more than the 'romantic' shots in the ending. The ending of KH is not about romance as a focus. Cloud's return to HB is not presented in the same fashion or even in the same general area of the ending as the romantic one. It's squeezed between two entirely fillial reunions.

Yes, Nomura was being vague with his comments because this is a love triangle and it has always been up to interpretation. However, during the ending of Kingdom Hearts it is the rule rather than the exception that romantic couples reunite. When you combine this with the fact that Nomura says the ending of Kingdom Hearts can provide commentary on the relationship Cloud and Aerith have during Final Fantasy VII, I do not think it is a leap in the least to view this has a valid piece of romantic evidence in favor of Cloud and Aerith.

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You say this, but Hitobito gives a list of the scenes of the end of KH1. Most are fillial, not romantic. Also, Nomura said 'May' and 'some'. Glorious weasel words.

To me, the juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar with the "Loveless" sign above her head, while Cloud simultaneously jumps from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII. This, of course, leads to Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith's bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction (SE words, not mine) from Cait Sith, and an "undying" feeling for Aerith that becomes "engraved in his heart." According to SE, Cloud is Aerith's koibito. The guilt and pain he feels for Aerith's death is because of the romantic connection they developed throughout the game. Furthermore, the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith in AC is the most romantic moment SE has shown us so far, IMO.

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Okay, all of this. All of it, is just your opinion and spin. Starting from the opening setting the two up as love interests to the hand reach being the most romantic moment. What isn't spin is pretty much irrelevant. Yes, we KNOW Cloud is the beloved of the woman who stars on Lifestream White. But we also know that Tifa is someone's beloved. And if we can take the simple logical step needed to determine that 'woman' is Aerith despite it never being explicitly said, we can take the other simple logical step to determine that the 'someone' Tifa is the beloved of is Cloud.

When you look at all of this evidence together and combine it with the Kingdom Hearts quote from Nomura, it is not hard to view them as a romantic couple. This is further confirmed by SE through numerous other quotes and the Cloud x Aerith cameo appearances in FFIX and FFT.

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You mean the Cameo that makes fun of the whole idea, and the cameo that shows Cloud have absolutely zero emotional reaction to Aerith and then ignore her in favor of returning home to Gaia and Tifa?
Seriously, most of this is really tenuous or overextended to determine that Cloud is going to be forever in love with a dead woman he knew for two weeks rather than the woman he has canonically had a crush on since before his balls dropped, he formed a family with, and has a future together with.

Granted, there is evidence that supports Cloti as well. And you also have Nomura saying everyone is free to interpret things differently. I'm simply explaining my Clerith interpretation.

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One which is based on very shoddy logic and assumptions, and kind of requires ignoring a lot of Cloud's own actions and creator commentary.

To me, it would be fine to say it is your interpretation that Cloud and Tifa develop a romantic relationship. But to say SE has officially said which couple is canon is completely and utterly false because Nomura said he hasn't a clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after Final Fantasy VII ends. Therefore, a romantic relationship does not necessarily develop from the HAHW scene. If Nomura doesn't know, fans shouldn't pretend they know either.

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If Nomura doesn't know Circa 2002, or more accurately, doesn't care, that doesn't prevent Nojima, Kitase, and other primary creators, from knowing and caring. And Nomura, circia 2005, DOES seem to know, as he thinks the movie profoundly grasps the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. He also says Tifa has the role of someone's beloved in addition to being an ally and like a mother. Nojima says that the first thing that he knew for certain about AC was that Cloud and Tifa would be together, that everyone would be where they belonged. In fact, Cloud belonging with Tifa is a recurring comment from creators and other official sources. All three major creators think Tifa's "words aren't the only way" is a risque in the scene as it stands. The Reunion files says Cloud and Tifa have a future together. The CCU says Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings at the end of FF7 and live together in AC and DoC. The 20th anniversary Ultimania says Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual romantic feelings beneath the highwind. Cloud's family is Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. Period. He knows he belongs with them. With Tifa. He is the father of the family the two of them formed in edge and she the mother. Denzel sees them as his parents. Tifa is someone's beloved. The developers damn well know.

Furthermore, nothing in AC contradicts his quote. No romantic moments are shared between Cloud and Tifa in AC. In fact, Cloud visited Aerith's Church before his diagnosis and is even seen living there. His guilt is strong because of the romantic connection they developed in Final Fantasy VII. This romantic connection is confirmed by numerous statements SE has made, especially when they called Cloud Aerith's koibito.

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Cloud is 'living' in the church because he has exiled himself from his happiness. He is living in the church to seek forgiveness, so he and his son can be cured of their disease so he can return to living with his family and being happy with them.
The guilt is strong because Cloud failed to protect her, and was morever nearly complicit in actually killing her. And again, Cloud being loved by Aerith is not evidence that Cloud loved her back romantically. It never has been and it never will be. It's why the question of do the women love Cloud is completely fucking irrelevant to this ENTIRE debacle.

Correct. Nomura has no clue if Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene takes place. If Nomura has no idea, no one should be making definitive statements on behalf of the creators that Cloti is canon.

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No. Nomura has no clue/does not care ABOUT their romantic relationship. Circa 2002. Years later, he knows.

Again, Nomura made his statement after the HAHW scene was already created. This means the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

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No, it means Nomura didn't give much thought to how people's relationships worked in the gap between the game and movie. Meanwhile, other developers DID give it a lot of thought, especially Nojima. Nojima knows Cloud and Tifa belong together.

Furthermore, nothing in AC contradicts his statement. To me, AC reaffirms Clerith and shows how utterly incompatible Cloud and Tifa are.[/quote]

It does nothing of the sort. AC is about Cloud's internalization of failure as his own guilt and his tendency towards blaming himself for things beyond his control and how he works through that psychological roadblock through the help of his family and friends, even the dead ones.

Funny -- Cloti's will stop at nothing to try and discredit and diminish Nomura. Whether you like it or not, his statements exist and he is a creator of Final Fantasy VII.

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Yes, his statements do exist. Like his statement that one of Tifa's roles is as someone's beloved. And his statement that AC profoundly grasps the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Also -- I can't believe people are denying that Aerith is Cloud's light in KH. Really...?

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Aerith is not Cloud's light in KH. Tifa is Cloud's light, just as Sephiroth is his darkness. Regardless of BS essays about how she isn't, jack fuck all exists to indicate that Aerith is a being of light. And this has jackfuckall to do with the LTD. Aerith is not who Cloud was looking for, it was Sephiroth. Aerith is not Cloud's light, Tifa is. Aerith is just a normal citizen of Radiant Garden. She's not even a princess of light. She's got light and dark in her like everyone else. Yes, virginia, that means Kairi is more of a special snowflake than Aerith in the KH multiverse.

Oh and this one quote shows that Aerith initially liked Cloud because of his similarities to Zack, but eventually she realizes Cloud is different from Zack and she grows to love Cloud more than Zack:

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And? She liked Cloud for Zack. Hence, she still likes Zack. She's not over him. QED. You can like more than one person at the same time. Aerith did. Deal with it.

Y'know, Blanky, I've realized you argue like an Evangelist. All emotional appeals and very little actual evidence or compelling arguments. That's not a good thing.

Junko Enoshima said:

To Splintered::

I know they've built a strong foundation as friends but it seems to me like they're still hashing out some issues in that relationship. Just like any relationship, friends get into arguments and fight as well.

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So do lovers.

I'm not sure how their relationship differs from any friendship that I have seen. I think that's just how Cloud and Tifa are with one another not that I think it's bad but I don't see their relationship blooming into to love at any point. I didn't say it automatically means they can't be together because they're both shy lol. But just to bring up often common in media and real life as well: opposites attracting. I find that a person who is not confident works well with someone with confidence because that person inspires confidence in them and builds that person up well. And is able to take care of and shelter that person.

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You have honestly just described what Cloud and Tifa DO for each other.

people with similar personalities to me seem to confide in one another but aren't able to really step forwards without that push. That's just my opinion though and it's because of that opinion that I feel Cloud and Aerith are great for one another! They both have insecurities but they balance each other out because they inspire one another in different ways. Sure have a shoulder is great to lean on for friends but for lovers I feel it exceeds just that.

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Exceeds it how? Also, Cloud and Aerith's issues are more a mirror of each other than Cloud and Tifa's apart from shyness. This has jackfuckall to do with the LTD, we're getting into narrative now, and identity crisis is the name of the game there.

See we differ because you think the relationship evolved while I think it faded. Cloud was absent for four years and he immediately meets Aerith who is bright, cheerful, kind, and right from the start is getting him to laugh and care for her. He meets Tifa and there is just a memory left, one that is clouded at that point.

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Cloud meets Tifa and she's the thing that snaps him out of a Mako poisoning coma he's been slipping in and out of for years and which gets him acting something like a human being together.

They both still have to discover the truth. So while Cloud and Tifa are still confused about the past meanwhile Cloud and Aerith are bonding and growing closer without that history to stunt them. Tifa also because jealous when she sees how close they are getting because it's something she and Cloud do not have which is in an actual quote.

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Yes, and so is Aerith being jealous of Tifa getting to live together with Cloud. You bring up Maiden, you have to suffer it being brought against you.

The only reason those things exist in the CA relationship though is because Aerith died. She died and he felt the extreme guilt which caused him to run and be at war with himself. To me it's the extreme love for Aerith that caused him to react so heavily to her death and I feel someone's actions after the death of someone especially someone they love, means and tells a lot.

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Cloud loved Zack. Noted. Also, you DO realize you're assuming Cloud loves Aerith to say that his actions after her death prove that he loved her, right? Anyone else seeing this as circular logic?

About Cloud moving his sword there? I feel it's because that's where he last saw Zack and Aerith and wants to honor that. Where he last saw Zack die was at that grave site but at the end of AC Zack and Aerith leave the church. That's why he moved it. Not because Aerith and Zack magically rekindled their relationship in the afterlife.

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It has nothing to do with Zack and Aerith's relationship, though it's funny to joke about re: euphemisms and innuendo and everything to do with Cloud's relationship with the both of them. He has moved their memorials together because he honors them together and in the same way now- as valued departed friends who helped him find his way back to the happiness with his family he wanted to return to, and to find his confidence again.

But he camped out in her church because of his guilt and because he wanted her forgiveness. Why would he stay there if the connection to her from there is gone?

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Is he happy? No? Then it's not his promised land. Even with Aerith's connection, he's not happy.

To Ryushikaze::
I guess that's true about her memory she still remembered the promise which was most significant to her. I feel like Aerith's death had more impact than any other death or guilt to Cloud.

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Advent Children Complete, saving Denzel and Tifa. Left eye and Right eye suggests otherwise.

Him wanting her forgiveness causes him to close himself off about it, to go to the forgotten city even, to stay at her church, and even to see her. It's said that Aerith lives on in his consciousness, that has not been said about Zack or anyone else.

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It has been said that Aerith lives on inside ALL of her friends. It is NOT A LITERAL STATEMENT. It's no more literal than a grandfather living on inside his grandkids in the real world.

He can feel Zack's presence the exact moment he appears to him but otherwise? No he can't, not the way he can with Aerith.

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He can sense Aerith all of once when she's not communicating with him, and he also senses Sephypoo at the same time. At the end of the Sephy fight, Aerith speaks to Kadaj and Cloud doesn't sense it at all. Tifa senses Aerith's presence on the Highwind. This i

This is going to sound really dumb so I apologize, but what does QED stand for ?

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Quod Erat Demonstratadum. In essence- it is shown.

I don't think Tifa's hand appearing means Aerith wants them to get together, lol. It just so happened that Aerith wasn't able to physically reach Cloud and Tifa was the one to be there for Cloud on earth seeing as she IS Cloud's best *friend*.

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If you want to include Maiden, Aerith was specifically leading him back to his own body, and thus, back to Tifa.

In Maiden Aerith does say she wants Tifa to look after Cloud on earth, and this just proves their friendship. IT doesn't mean she stops loving Cloud or that Cloud stops loving Aerith.

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You need to prove Cloud STARTS loving Aerith before you can argue anything about him stopping loving her. At least the C/T argument has Cloud's canonical 8 year+ crush on Tifa as evidence that the boy is interested.

Cloud is the one that says "I think I can meet her there" then Tifa is just encouraging him by saying "Yeah lets meet her"

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And then the moment their impending mortality is not so impending, the long and the short of their 'meeting' her is visiting her grave and then starting a family together. My point is, the statement comes at a point where neither of them is sure they're going to live for the next five minutes. An existence beyond death and reuniting with an old friend is a good way to put your mind at ease.

Why wouldn't Aerith be jealous of Tifa getting to live with Cloud though? She loves Cloud and wants to be alive with him supporting him as Tifa now gets to do in her place. Anyone would feel jealous of that. IT's not her being jealous of their relationship which is the difference. Well we have to agree to disagree there, lol. Complicated feelings for towards Cloud and Aerith's relationship has always stricken me as jealous feelings over the relationship Cloud and Aerith have. Especially the quote that reveals Tifa is jealous of Cloud and Aerith exploring *their* world together and have feelings for one another that she and Cloud don't share.

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Err, the quote does not say 'feelings for one another that she and Cloud don't share.' And my point is that you are arguing that Tifa being jealous of Cloud and Aerith being chummy means that C/A is romantic, but you make excuses to explain why Aerith being jealous of Tifa living with Cloud doesn't make C/T romantic. I, when I'm not being facetious, don't think EITHER jealousy automatically means the other pairing is romantic.

Shy smile? Does it specifically say he is smiling shyly directed at Tifa?

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YES.

One of the quotes says she's attracted to Cloud INITIALLY because of Zack. She admits that things are different and wants to meet Cloud because she sees through to the real him. And just because she sees someone she used to love dearly within Cloud does not mean she still is in love with Zack. You can be attracted to someone that reminds you of a feeling you once had without it being love.

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True, however, from everything we know of Z/A's relationship, how long she did pine for Zack, and the fact that she used several of Zack's lines when talking with Zack, it gives us every indication of someone who is NOT over her previous relationship even though she's trying to be. Again, this isn't LTD related, really, but it makes Aerith a much more nuanced and better character to have her own complicated feelings regarding Zack and Chocobutt.

About the Kingdom Hearts discussion, I'd like to know how Cloti fans feel about it being said that Cloud and Aerith's reunion might answer some questions about their relationship. What do you think it means on your side of things?

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Well, apart from 'Might' and 'Some,' what does their reunion tell us? Cid is the one who seems to have found Cloud, Aerith seems a lot more eager to see KH Cloud than Vice Versa, and he doesn't seem to have all that much of a response to her. Honestly, looking to deep at this could tell us that it's not a very good relationship, which we know not to be the case. But consider that most of the KH reunions are fillial- people coming home, meeting family, etc. That could tell us Cloud and Aerith's relationship is like that of siblings or friends in the KH verse. She's definitely not his light or what he was looking for- Aerith herself says he's looking for Sephiroth- she's just a bog standard human, same as Leon, Yuffie, or Cid.

Also I thought Aerith was the balance of light and dark the one that mediates the two. Because she is the perfect balance she can reach through to Cloud.

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Perfect balance wha? No, she's just a mix, a normal human blend.

[qutoe]Tifa's light ends up being to bright and blinding to him because he is pretty much filled with nothing but darkness. Therefore Tifa's not able to reach him exactly. Aerith says Cloud's light will lead him home, but he hasn't found his light yet and he hasn't fought off the darkness (which is believed to be Sephiroth of course). There is no proof yet that either Tifa or Aerith is his light. But I do know that either way his home is with Aerith.[/QUOTE]

Sephiroth is Cloud's darkness. Tifa is Cloud's light. Cloud is momentarily blinded because he cannot face his own light because he's been running from it for the past however long. Tifa in KH represents warmth, happiness, and belonging, things Cloud was running from in AC because he didn't think he deserved them. That's another Nomura quote.
And Tifa DOES reach Cloud. It's why he begins glowing brightly at the end of that scene and begins to fight and overwhelm Sephiroth. Also, I also recall it being said that Radian Garden is NOT where Cloud is from originally, so his home might not be with Aerith or anyone else there either.


Oh, and Hello there, Shortstack. Glad to see you back in the thick of things.

BlankBeat said:

PS: What do people think about the fact that Square Enix picked Cloud and Aerith as their Emperor and Empress for Final Fantasy Brigade. They become a "set" if you get them both.

Seems to follow along with their other romantic cameo appearances (Kingdom Hearts, FFT, FFIX).

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What does it mean that they picked Zack and Tifa as the school uniform pair?

Out of my long post, I can't believe this is what is being focused on.

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*shrugs* Sorry but I've got a bad habit of skimming the majority of posts, I grabbed it because it was the thing that stuck out to me. And I thought it needed to be addressed because of how much I disagreed with the general sentiment.

It fully ignores the context of Tifa and Cloud, two characters that got emotionally devastated by their journey. Two characters that now live in a world where orphans run around looking for scrap metal and people die with black goo spewing from their bodies. Tifa and Cloud aren't the only one having issues either; Barret is utterly lost, Yuffie's village has gone the shitter, Red XIII is have weird panic episodes, etc.

It's not a romantic honeymoon because this isn't just about romance, it's about recovery. The lifestream event, the highwind event, the "this I have you" scene establish romantic connections. The next isn't just about the next stage of romance, it's about how do they rebuild their normal lives.Where the romantic context comes in is that because it is established they decide to build it together.

ojima says there is a premise that things, "...won't go well between Cloud and Tifa." This insinuates the possibility that the romantic feelings expressed during the HAHW scene disappeared and never developed into a relationship.

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It could insinuate that... if we didn't understand what happened during those years. But we do know, it was depression, anxiety, self loathing, and loss of direction. And it wasn't Tifa's or the relationship's fault. And imo, this DOES insinuate they are in a relationship, just that it's not perfect and they are going through hard times. Otherwise there would be no point in even bothering the show things not going well.

In addition, Nojima's premise that things might have gone "...well with Aerith" is also reenforced by the beautiful spiritual connection we see between Cloud and Aerith, which basically shows us that things most likely would have gone better between Cloud and Aerith if Aerith had lived.

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You missed the part where it was more of "Maybe, maybe not" situation. And then the "there's a burden then comes from Aerith." It could have been great, but I get that they are hinting that it wouldn't have been that great fantasy that people expect it to be either.

I, for one, honestly believe that it wouldn't have gone better with Aerith or Tifa. Except for the obviousness that Aerith wouldn't have died. But Cloud's depression and anxiety isn't something you kiss and make better. And while I believe some issues made it hard, Tifa's tendency to overthink and that one time she got angry, I also think that her honestly, her moments when she talked to him about his issues, her patience, her encouragement, and her understanding without the enabling- helped him past his issues.

That said, I agree that it hints that Cloud and Aerith always had the possibility to become a romantic couple. I always thought that too. I just don't agree that it would automatically trump the CloudxTifa relationship. Furthermore, it just shows that this "maybe, in another life, where things have gone differently" thinking tells me that they aren't in a romantic relationship as of now. Because to talk about what could have been means that what is now is not the same.

Cloud and Aerith had a wonderful connection, with strong romantic undertones. But that moment is lost. Cloud and Tifa also have a wonderful connection, also with strong romantic undertones, and they are now and later- always be working it out together.

I also disagree that the relationship has been constant bickering for two years. They were going on very strong until the Delivery Service, but that strain had to with Tifa realizing that Cloud traveling around the world was opening wounds of a hard battle, and that they mismatching schedules.

They got it back together, Cloud changed his schedule to spend time with his family, they would pour over maps and Cloud would tell stories, Denzel would work with Cloud in his shop, and Tifa notes that " If I felt like it, I could go over to that table and be welcomed with smiles."

Case of Tifa said:

Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.

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To me this is what the family is normally like, when not burdened, with you know, PTSD and the world crises. They were happy and functioning, if not a little awkward because they were awkward people.

This seemed to be happening for long enough that Tifa asked Cloud if he had resolved whatever problem that was plaguing him. Cloud said it wasn't because he hadn't bothered trying to resolve it. It blows up later at the end of CoT/beginning of AC, but he then he does resolve it. Regardless, it was showing that Cloud's family... isn't one consistently characterized by his absence or fighting, in fact absence and fighting is what stresses the kids because it is abnormal.

Furthermore, we get confirmation from creators that Cloud was happy. And that the more Cloud was happy, the more anxious he became.

Y'know, Blanky, I've realized you argue like an Evangelist. All emotional appeals and very little actual evidence or compelling arguments. That's not a good thing.

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Meh, I'm an emotional debater too, plus I think Blankbeart does his (see Quex I learn) best to post quotes and moments as backup.

Ryushikaze said:

Okay, all of this. All of it, is just your opinion and spin. Starting from the opening setting the two up as love interests to the hand reach being the most romantic moment. What isn't spin is pretty much irrelevant. Yes, we KNOW Cloud is the beloved of the woman who stars on Lifestream White. But we also know that Tifa is someone's beloved. And if we can take the simple logical step needed to determine that 'woman' is Aerith despite it never being explicitly said, we can take the other simple logical step to determine that the 'someone' Tifa is the beloved of is Cloud.

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Here is a recap of what you said is opinion and spin. I included a works cited:
Aerith was, afterall, the only character Cloud cried and laughed for (A). Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date (B), telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him (C), two *canon* dates (D), an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon (E), a wedding prediction from Cait Sith (F), and an undying feeling for Aerith (G) that becomes engraved in his heart (H). Cloud is Aerith's *koibito* (I). Her consciousness lives on inside of Cloud (J), and his Promised Land is with her (K).

A: Cloud: “I thought you were cut out to be in SOLDIER?”—*Aerith: “Oh! You’re terrible!” [Cloud and Aerith flirting, laughing] ~Final Fantasy VII, laughing scene

“My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!” ~Cloud, Aerith’s death scene, Final Fantasy VII

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B: Aerith: “Then, get me out of here. Take me home.” - Cloud: “OK, I’ll do it but it’ll cost you.” - Aerith: “Well then, let’s see…..How about if I go out with you once?”*(Cloud makes an affirmative nod.) ~Final Fantasy VII, Church scene

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C: “Marlene is a sharp girl - Even though she’s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says “I won’t tell Tifa!” demonstrates this grownup behavior.” ~Final Fantasy VII, 25th Anniversary Ultimania [In order for Marlene to say, “I won’t tell Tifa,” Cloud is required to say, “I hope so” after Marlene says she think Aerith likes him]

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D: “Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the*sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in “FFVII” as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.” ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix

“The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game — Cloud and Aerith’s] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection

“In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

“Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled

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E: “But, I’m -I mean- we’re here for you, right?” ~Cloud Strife, Cosmo Canyon campfire, Final Fantasy VII

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F: “Cait Sith’s lines, which predict Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now becomes more painful.”*~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

“Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward.”~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

“Looks good. You are perfect for each other!” “Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!” — “Poor Tifa!” ~Cait Sith, Final Fantasy VII

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G: “Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day…” ~Nomura, Square Enix

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H: Aerith Gainsborough: “A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is *engraved* in Cloud’s *heart* for the rest of his life” ~DoC game manual, Square Enix

“It was the sound of Cloud’s heart cracking [after Aerith’s death].” ~Maiden of the Planet, Square Enix

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I: “Cloud was her friend, her *koibito* (lover in Japanese) - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix

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J: “As for Cloud… He sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.” ~Nomura, Square Enix

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K: “The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…” ~Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania [Cloud awakes in Aerith’s Church, the place where he shares a spiritual connection with her]

“I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the Planet…The Promised Land…I think I can meet her…there…” ~Cloud Strife, Final Fantasy VII

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And since nothing happens in a vacuum, when you consider the other cameo appearances of Cloud and Aerith (especially FFIX and FFT), the established love triangle of a hero wavering between two love interests, calling Aerith a "love rival," and the official quotes from SE that I provided above (especially the koibito quote), I don't think it is a stretch to view these in-game moments with a romantic lense.

You also question the hand reach scene being romantic, so here is my explanation:
Aside from sex or a kiss, holding hands is a common behavior that lovers do together. In fact, I'd say holding hands is more romantic than a hug. Typically, people only hold hands with family members or romantic interests. Holding hands is commonly associated with love or romantic couples. In addition, under the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as it is portrayed in FFVII and in AC, it seems obvious that this piece of imagery is to be viewed romantically.

Here is a further explanation of why I believe Cait Sith's prediction is proof in favor of CxA:
The argument about Cait Sith's prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE's intent for including this wedding prediction in the game.

SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, "You will have a bright future full of many happy times!" -- this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future.

So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith's future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith's romantic future with Cloud.

One of the biggest reasons Aerith's death is so sad is because she wasn't just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game.

Ryushikaze said:

You mean the Cameo that makes fun of the whole idea, and the cameo that shows Cloud have absolutely zero emotional reaction to Aerith and then ignore her in favor of returning home to Gaia and Tifa?
Seriously, most of this is really tenuous or overextended to determine that Cloud is going to be forever in love with a dead woman he knew for two weeks rather than the woman he has canonically had a crush on since before his balls dropped, he formed a family with, and has a future together with.

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You can make fun of the fact that Aerith is dead all you want, but they share a spiritual connection that is undeniable. They don't call it Final Fantasy for nothing.

Furthermore, this "love beyond death" theme is a common theme in Final Fantasy (Tidus/Yuna, Shuyin/Lenne, Laguna/Raine, Ashe/Rasler, etc.) Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, which is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC.

It is also apparent Cloud finds happiness in Aerth's Church because it is stated to be his Promised Land and he repeatedly visits it. Tifa gets angry when she realizes this, perhaps showing that she is jealous of the connection Cloud and Aerith have. It's obvious why Tifa is jealous of her "love rivals" connection with Cloud -- Tifa wishes he wanted to spend as much time with her as he does with the other heroine he is wavering between.

To me, it seems as though the place where Cloud shares a spiritual connection with Aerith is his Promised Land and the place he feels most comfortable.

Ryushikaze said:

If Nomura doesn't know Circa 2002, or more accurately, doesn't care, that doesn't prevent Nojima, Kitase, and other primary creators, from knowing and caring. And Nomura, circia 2005, DOES seem to know, as he thinks the movie profoundly grasps the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

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Nomura's quote doesn't say what the truth of their relationship is in AC.

The truth of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa is unknown. His quote says nothing definitively about the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Furthermore, AC does NOT show them as an obvious romantic couple, therefore the "truth" of their relationship could be that they will forever be utterly incompatible and will never work out.

The "truth" I see is the premise that Nojima speaks of -- that things do NOT go well between Cloud and Tifa: "First off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same." ~Nojima. He also isn't sure if Marlene and Denzel will be enough to help them work out their issues. Again -- maybe the truth is that they are forever doomed? We'll never know because the creators never say anything definitively about the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

To me, the premise that Nojima speaks of is backed up by the dysfunction we see between Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC. His quote also insinuates the possibility that the romantic feelings expressed during the HAHW scene disappeared quickly and never developed into a relationship. Or that the LAHW scene happened.

Nothing in AC suggests the truth of their relationship is romantic. To me, AC suggests that the truth of their relationship is inherently dysfunctional and will never work out. What we see in AC is further backed by Nojima's quote where he says there is a premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa.

Ryushikaze said:

ICloud is 'living' in the church because he has exiled himself from his happiness. He is living in the church to seek forgiveness, so he and his son can be cured of their disease so he can return to living with his family and being happy with them.

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Cloud finds Denzel before he is diagnosed. Why was he visiting the Church before his diagnosis? To me, the answer to this question is that he misses someone he had romantic feelings for. Again -- love beyond death is a repeated theme in the Final Fantasy franchise (I listed the examples above).

Furthermore, why does Cloud feel guilty that Aerith died? Because he developed an emotional connection with her. At the very minimum Cloud had feelings of friendship for Aerith, and at the very most Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. But he had some type of feelings nonetheless.

My point is that Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. Cloud's guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

His guilt and blame is linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those were.

Ryushikaze said:

No. Nomura has no clue/does not care ABOUT their romantic relationship. Circa 2002. Years later, he knows.

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Nomura simply says AC shows the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. The truth of their relationship is completely up to interpretation. To me, AC confirms Nojima's premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa. The truth of their relationship could easily be that they will never work out and that they are forever incompatible.

But the main reason I bring up Nomura's quote is because it references the two years AFTER the HAHW scene takes place. So my point is that the HAHW scene does not necessarily prove a romantic relationship develops between Cloud and Tifa.

Nojima's premise and what we see in CoT and AC reenforce the narrative that a romantic relationship did not develop after the Highwind scene. In fact, it hints that the LAHW scene might have taken place.

But regardless, Nomura doesn't have a clue if Cloud and Tifa develop a romantic relationship after the HAHW scene takes place. Therefore, the HAHW scene proves nothing.

@I am not me::

1.What do people think about Cloud dying to protect Tifa in Dissidia 012?

I think since Cloud specifically calls Tifa a friend in that game, that he protected his friend.

2. Hurrying to save her from Sephiroth was something too.

Why would he stand back at let his friend die? OR get hurt?

3.Oh, and when Tifa blinds Cloud with her light in KH2?

How is blinding someone romantic?

@Ryushikaze::
sure lovers can definitely share those things as well but I think there needs to be a clear moment that shows the step up from friendship has been made which I believe, never happened.
I have not seen them inspiring confidence in one another, not in the way that Aerith has.
The way love exceeds any friendship. Cloud became Aerith's bodyguard and told her he'd take her on the Highwind one day - two promises. Cloud never denies the date from Aerith and the Aerith date makes most sense canon wise. Dates:: A clear step up from friendship. Aerith is able to appear in Cloud's dreams and Cloud is able to sense her presence in his soul. He says specifically he can feel her in his soul. This is BEFORE Advent Children merely when Aerith goes far away. He says he wants to meet her in the Promised Land. He comforts her when she is lonely by saying *I* and changing it to *we*. When Aerith dies he refers to them by saying what are *we* supposed to do?

"I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a beakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud had many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. ~pg. 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Beneath a picture of Aerith asking, "How about one date?"
This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in the Gold Saucer. ~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."
As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~pg. 120, FFVII Ultimania Omega

The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.
The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.
Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~pg. 151, FVII Ultimania Omega

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she also has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a "big kid" himself in some respects. ~Nomura, pg. 18, Reunion Files

Tifa's been with Cloud for a large part of her life at this point, but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart, and this makes her uneasy. ~Nojima, pg. 19, Reunion Files

Although there's a lot to Tifa's character, she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times. ~Nojima; Reunion Files, pg. 20

As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least. ~Nojima, pg. 58, Reunion Files

When Cloud regains consciousness, Reno and Rude tell him about the orphans being abducted, and that they had been taken to Kadaj's base in the "Forgotten City". Upon hearing this, Cloud hesitates, because of the association with Aerith's death. Tifa becomes frustrated with Cloud, and confronts him because he cannot let go of the past. Cloud finds himself lost in emotion as he races his motorcycle to the enemy's base. As he rides, Aerith comes to him in his mind and speaks to him. ~pg. 111, Reunion Files

On the request of his childhood friend Tifa, Cloud assists the anti-ShinRa organization “AVALANCHE” led by Barret. At first he has little interest in their goal of ‘protecting the planet’. But after meeting Aerith, an Ancient, and reuniting with his fated rival Sephiroth, he throws himself fully into the battle to save the planet. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

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Alright I dropped a ton of quotes and I want to make a point about them. It appears Tifa is always referenced as friend, and that Aerith has NO complicated feelings towards her. It's also stated Tifa still doesn't know some of the complexities of Cloud's heart and that frustrates her. We see Aerith with her same gentle nature, comforting Cloud and existing to him in spirit. Living on in his consciousness and his heart. We see that he reaches out to her, even after she has died. And we also see it saying that Tifa's maternal bond is different. Aerith is like a guardian watching over the planet will Tifa is 'babysitting' for Cloud. It doesn't seem very romantic, it all seems like signs point to friendship and Tifa's complicated feelings towards Cloud and Aerith's bond.

I always thought Tifa was able to do that because of her connection to his past, not because he loves her. And Maiden didn't bring anything against me? I am saying their forms of jealousy are clearly different. His guilt for ZACK and AERITH are obviously different. Zack was never pointed out as a love rival, nor was Tifa ever jealous of him. Zack doesn't live on in Cloud's consciousness and statements such as 'engraved in Cloud's heart' has never been mentioned for anyone else but Aerith. He also resides in Aerith's church, seeks Aerith, speaks with Aerith, wants to be NEAR to Aerith not Zack. And I'm saying Cloud loved Aerith before hand, but after she dies he STILL loves her. Not that he moved on with Tifa.
He isn't happy because he hasn't received forgiveness from Aerith yet and he is alone. It's still the place where Cloud and Aerith first met, which makes it important to him. The fact that he stays there and it becomes his promised land means a lot towards CA to me. If you don't think so then that is that.
It's different because those characters are not living in his consciousness, and Aerith is not speaking directly to Tifa or anyone else. That is the maternal feeling Aerith gives off to the others that make them sense her. I'm not sure why people want to deny Aerith's strong connection with Cloud but it is a bit silly as the creators have said this is their intention.
I thought I had proved that by saying Tifa was jealous of them and that they developed their own world and feelings were different between them than the feelings between Cloud and Tifa. Those aren't just my opinion by the way I provided quotes to that instance. :/ Not to mention Cloud and Aerith have a promise of a DATE. a CLEAR INSTANCE where it's obviously not a friendship.
How is the rare smile to Aerith then, not real? You said that quote was a misquote but I don't see how that is.
Aerith sealed things off with Zack in her final letter in Crisis Core in my opinion, and the way she tells Cloud himself it's in the past, it wasn't serious (not in denial, but making sure Cloud doesn't think it's serious seems important to her), that she seems through to the true essence of Cloud and wants to meet him, and how she tells him in his dream that she's there for him and sees the real him all tell me she is completely 100 percent done with Zack. And mentioning maiden again Zack is a true friend to her and she knows that she has come to love Cloud above anyone else. Goodness.
I don't have the quote but there is one that points out that Aerith is like a medium not just any normal human walking around on the street to Cloud. That's why I feel like Aerith is the balance. If anyone has that quote I would be grateful if it could be posted ;_; In any case if Tifa is Cloud's light she will guide him back home which is with Aerith. Aerith is seen waiting for Cloud in the spot where he disappeared, Cloud says even if he goes far away he'll come back, Cloud says he doesn't want Aerith involved in the dangers he's facing. So many things point to Cloud being close with and being with Aerith.

Strangelove said:

Though if you were to take it as 'I don't know', he is also following on from talking about things not shown in the game or film. At the time this interview was conducted, the 2 years between FFVII and AC was something that hadn't been shown. Until Nojima wrote OTWTAS, that was unknown. He might literally not have known anything.

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Wasn't that interview released a month or so after the original AC came out, though (I think it was in October 2005)? Case of Tifa had been released in the AC Prologue book at the same time as the film.

In any case, that interview with him where he said "I think that this volume is able to deeply grasp the relationship between the two" was in the June 2004 issue of Famitsu PS2, more than a year before. He had to be speaking in the "I don't care" sense.

Junko Enoshima said:

That's like saying to be fair no one called you retarded and a moron, just your ideals! That means it's okay! That's silly.
Our thoughts and opinions are a part of WHO WE ARE.

For instance::
"I like that thing because of this reason"
other person::
"That's fucking retarded!"

How is that not offensive please don't pretend something isn't offensive when it is. I don't care if you are going to be a jerk but at least admit you're being one if you are instead of trying to cover up with some silly loop hole that no one is buying into. Sorry Maidenofwar that was directed at others, not at you lol.

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BlankBeat and the authors of those essays can feel however they wish about what I said. I have no ill feelings toward you. I don't know you. But when I see people parroting the same garbage they have repeated for years even in the face of stone cold truth that proves them wrong (e.g. BlankBeat and this "romantic couples reunite in KH's ending" hogwash, or "only the original release of a game/movie counts" claim) -- and I have personally experienced intellectually dishonest debate from those folks (e.g. BlankBeat ignoring that Nomura said he doesn't care if Cloti shit happened, not that he doesn't know; or accepting fan translations that say things he would like to hear, while refusing to accept fan translations saying things he doesn't like to hear, and on the basis that they are "just fan translations"; or saying he doesn't have knowledge of Japanese and, therefore, can't personally look into anything himself even when provided with the original Japanese text of a quote along with a number of suggestsion for online sources he could consult on his own) -- I am not concerned with whether they think I'm an asshole, as you put it.

Really, the last of my concerns is whether someone who knowingly harps on a lie thinks I'm an asshole for calling them out on it.

Cases in point:

BlankBeat said:

If you are referring to Nomura's "truth" quote, we have no idea what the "truth" of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is. The truth of their relationship, IMO, is up to interpretation.

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Here BlankBeat is making a strawman of what Quexinos said.

BlankBeat's claim is that Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are romantically involved.

Que pointed out that Nomura himself says that Advent Children "deeply grasps the truth" of their relationship.

BlankBeat responds that we don't know what that truth is and it is up to interpretation.

The point Que made was completely ignored. The relevant matter here is that Nomura said the movie he directed captures the essence of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. He, therefore, knows what the nature of that relationship is.

This is especially obvious when the man later talks about Tifa being someone's koibito as one of her roles in Advent Children. No matter who you think it is saying desires her -- and regardless of whether you are taking "koibito" in its colloquial sense of mutuality or its literal one-sided sense -- Nomura is expressing knowledge of Tifa's romantic life, which means he knows what is what between her and Cloud.

But BlankBeat is not going to acknowledge this.

More examples:

BlankBeat said:

Here is a recap of what you said is opinion and spin. I included a works cited:
Aerith was, afterall, the only character Cloud cried and laughed for (A). Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date (B), telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him (C), two *canon* dates (D), an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon (E), a wedding prediction from Cait Sith (F), and an undying feeling for Aerith (G) that becomes engraved in his heart (H). Cloud is Aerith's *koibito* (I). Her consciousness lives on inside of Cloud (J), and his Promised Land is with her (K).

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A: Cloud cried for Zack. He has laughed with Tifa.
C: BlankBeat readily accepts that Ultimania passage as canon despite ignoring the book's identical treatment of the High Affection Highwind Scene.
D: The first date was not romantic in nature. Aerith asked if they could take a break, not have a date, and they didn't talk about anything romantic between the two of them. Neither character seemed to think of it as a date either.
E: "Confession" is a misleading word for what actually happened. Certainly it revealed something of Cloud's feelings, but it was not deliberate and there was no confession. Cloud backed up to avoid revealing anything.
G: An undying feeling identified as guilt in the complete quote, which BlankBeat conveniently left out of his attached bibliography. He has also had this proven to him several times, yet continues to misrepresent this quote.
H: Likewise with this one. Despite it being proven to him that "engraved in the heart" is a Japanese idiom meaning someone will never forget something, and even despite the official translation of the line going in that direction, BlankBeat continues to misrepresent it. Ironically, while ignoring "just fan translations" he doesn't like.
I: BlankBeat insists on this use of "koibito" being in a sense of mutuality, yet won't accept the same for the one about Tifa being someone's koibito in Advent Children.
K: Deliberate misrepresentation of the quote in question. The quote specifies that Aerith is leaving and says nothing of Cloud's Promised Land being with her. Said quote emphasizes him being free of his guilt, everyone being healed, and all the people he loves being around him. Also going ignored is that he had been staying at the church for a while up until that point, yet had still been miserable until this moment when all the components I mentioned above applied. His Promised Land was the situation, not a dilapidated building.

So, yeah, maybe I'm an asshole. At least I'm not a liar.

If you wish to throw your lot in with a verifiable liar, Junko, be my guest. Personally, I would rather take the honest asshole.

I agree with Splintered’s analysis of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship within the Compilation, as well as relationships in general. The concept of their relationship being that of an imperfect one, where Cloud and Tifa fail to run, hand in hand, through a field full of sunshine and daises together 24/7, also harks back to something Yoshinori Kitase said regarding what he and the other creators wanted for FFVII:

“In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.”

(And just to cover all of my bases here, Kitase made this statement in Edge magazine in May 2003, just a few months before Advent Children was revealed to be a work in progress.)

Anyway, this notion of “feelings of reality and not Hollywood” maintains itself and follows throughout the Compilation. The Compilation’s context is part fantasy, yes, but it also features components of reality, as well. ACC isn’t simply about romance. If I’m not mistaken, ACC’s theme, as FFVII’s was of “life,” was that of “survival.” The concept of family also plays an important role—throughout the novellas and in the film itself—in its story. Cloud and Tifa’s “dysfunctional” relationship has been beaten into the ground here lately. I have no wish to talk about it, personally, since it already ties in with something I’ve thought about for a while now: Cloud’s relationship with the children.

Denzel and Marlene’s scenes in the film have a huge emphasis on what’s going on with Cloud. It’s not just about Cloud and Tifa having relationship problems. It’s not just about Cloud’s need for forgiveness. And it’s certainly not about Cloud hooking up with someone romantically. I’m well aware of Cloud having a lot of issues, and that they needed to be sorted out, certainly; but he wasn’t just hurting Tifa—Denzel and Marlene also suffered because of his problems. He left All. Of. Them. And it wasn’t just over his being unhappy because Tifa couldn’t give him what he needed, or that he was miserable living with her at Seventh Heaven. No, we only need to look at what Denzel says when he’s suffering from a bout of Geostigma and looks at a photo of Cloud, Marlene, and himself on his nightstand. He says something along the lines of, “I guess I was the last straw” and then hides his face, obviously hurt by what’s going on around him. Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but that was absolutely heartbreaking to hear—coming from a child. A child. A child, who in part blames himself for his surrogate father leaving home without a single word to anyone. Marlene is also affected by Cloud leaving them behind, and she rightly calls him out over it.

Looking past any romantic bullshit from either side and taking a real look at the children’s reactions, it actually makes sense for why Tifa had to get onto Cloud, to get him off of his sorry, guilt-ridden ass and to do something for those who really needed him. Really, the more I look at ACC, the more I see something beyond pairings and love and kisses and Gaia knows what else shippers have feelings for. Cloud’s relationship with Aerith, whatever it was, is beautiful; however, if that relationship hurts so many others in the process, in Cloud’s failure to let go of the past and to move on with his life, then it’s one of the most selfish, nauseating romances I’ve ever seen. Abandoning two children because of a personal preference in being close to a dead woman instead of them—because loving someone beyond such mundane daily routines as interacting with others and simply breathing is obviously the only thing that truly matters in the world of FFVII—then it’s probably one of the shoddiest plot devices I’ve ever seen storywise. It’s a blinded, blunted view on what’s really going on, and I can’t help but wonder why people would think it’s a wonderful thing for that kind of selfishness to go on and have children suffer for it. Again, romance isn’t everything.

I actually almost forgot my final point, but it’s simply this: there is no such thing as a relationship without problems. I mean, let’s take a look at another couple from FFVII. Cid/Shera. Yes. As much as I love Cid/Shera, their relationship is far from perfect—which is what I love about it, ironically enough. Cid gave Shera grief for many years over what happened with ShinRa No. 26, and then Shera contracted Geostigma, which obviously put some strain back at home. And yet, they worked through their problems. The same is with Cloud and Tifa. Again, I refuse to get into semantics, but I will point out, by Word of God: they’re still living together during the events of DoC, according to the Crisis Core Ultimania, and that takes place a year after ACC, so it suggests that which is derived by common sense.