BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
IF we accept your translation, it implies that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is unimportant to Nomura. To me, this seems odd if they are intended to be the official canon couple of Final Fantasy VII. Would he act the same way if the topic revolved around another Final Fantasy couple? Probably not.Hawkeye said:Anyway, why is it telling that he doesn't care about romantic subplots?
His lack of interest or inability to directly answer questions about their relationship suggests that there is no official answer regarding their relationship, otherwise he would just say what the answer is to end the constant barrage of questions he receives about their relationship.
The bottom line is: if Nomura wanted to put an end to the constant barrage of questions he receives about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, it would seem as though he would put an end to it IF there was an official answer. But since there isn't an official answer, he isn't able to give an answer, which is probably why he is annoyed because he isn't able to put an end to the constant barrage of questions he receives about their relationship given the lack of an official answer.
And I'll be the first one to admit, this is all of my own personal speculation.
I'm glad you qualify your statement with "early on" because "later on" things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa.Hawkeye said:Case of Tifa. A number of romantic moments early on between the two.
Furthermore, what you consider a romantic moment is not necessarily a romantic moment to me. What are the moments in CoT that you view romantically?
To me, there is no obvious moment of romance between Cloud and Tifa. No kiss. No proof they sleep in the same room. Nothing.
There is no scene or piece of dialogue that unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers. This is NOT the case for most of the other canon Final Fantasy couples.
It seems odd to me that if Cloud and Tifa are now considered the canon couple of FFVII during CoT and AC, that SE would not treat them similarly to other canon FF couples and show us an explicit scene of romance between them.
How is Nojima talking about their relationship under a romantic context? He says he DOESN'T want to delve into the topics of love and marriage.Hawkeye said:And Nojima talks about it in a romantic context. There has to be something there in the first place to either be "not going well" or for the kids to "help them work out." You even agree that he is talking about romance here because of the comparison to how things might have gone with Aerith.
He isn't talking about one in a romantic context and the other in a platonic.
What I believe exists between Cloud and Tifa is the old saying, "more than friends, less than lovers".
The HAHW scene is proof that mutual romantic feelings exist between Cloud and Tifa. (But just to clarify, there is also sufficient evidence to show Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, as well. It IS possible for Cloud to love both Aerith and Tifa romantically, especially when you consider all the evidence that I've mentioned in my previous posts)
But my point is that to me, the HAHW scene establishes Cloud and Tifa as more than friends, but less than lovers. We never see an explicit scene between Cloud and Tifa that moves them officially from friends to romantic lovers. As I said previously, there is no honeymoon stage to firmly establish them as lovers.
So the way I read Nojima's quote, is that Cloud and Tifa were never able to take that next step and become lovers despite the HAHW scene taking place. They will forever be in this limbo stage where they are more than friends but less than lovers.
The premise from Nojima that things "won't go well" between Cloud and Tifa, suggests that they were never able to take what happened during the HAHW scene and turn it into a romantic relationship. Nojima's premise is reinforced by the fact that we see nothing that unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene takes place.
What was there, to me, was the *possibility* of a romantic relationship that was never fully realized because of either difficult and unbearable circumstances, or because of the utter incomparability we see between Cloud and Tifa during CoT and AC. Either way, they never moved officially from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. No scene or piece of dialogue shows us that they officially progressed from friends to lovers.Hawkeye said:And, again, there has to be something there in the first place to not go well.
In fact, Nojima's quote insinuates that the romantic feelings expressed during the HAHW scene disappeared quickly and never developed into a relationship. Or that the LAHW scene happened.
In addition, Nojima's premise that things might have gone "...well with Aerith" is also reinforced by the beautiful spiritual connection we see between Cloud and Aerith, which basically shows us that things most likely would have gone better between Cloud and Aerith if Aerith had lived.
To me, the fact that Nojima mentions a premise that things "won't go well" between Cloud and Tifa, in combination with the dysfunction that we see in CoT and AC, in combination with the part where he says things might have "gone well" with Aerith, implies that Cloud and Aerith have a stronger romantic connection.
In addition, Tifa is repeatedly jealous of Cloud and Aerith's relationship, which suggests to me that even Tifa sees what Nojima is talking about -- that Cloud and Aerith probably would have worked out better.
Nomura has "no clue" about whether Cloud and Tifa are friends or lovers during the two years after FFVII.Hawkeye said:Whatever that truth happens to be is irrelevant to me and this discussion itself, really. What's significant about the quote is that it shows Nomura knows what their relationship is, and that, therefore, the notion that there could be no relationship (because he has no clue) is inaccurate.
But by the time AC rolls around, it is clear to him what the truth of their relationship is. And if the opening scene is anything to go by, it doesn't look good
1. Love beyond death is a repeated theme in the Final Fantasy franchise. So the fact that Aerith died is irrelevant to a Final Fantasy game, especially when we've seen this theme of love beyond death repeated over and over again.Hawkeye said:In a very legitimate way, they both are. Cloud had feelings for them both. Both had feelings for him. One of them died before anything could be established with her, though, so he's living out his life with the other.
2. Living with Tifa in his separate room does not automatically mean they are in a romantic relationship, especially when we know how Seventh Heaven has been used in the past.
Then if both koibito quotes apply to both relationships in a reciprocal fashion, why are you declaring one couple canon?Hawkeye said:There are a number of factors complicating how Cloud may feel at any given time (his messed up memories in the original game, his guilt in the two years after, etc.), but he has had romantic feelings for both, and while both were alive with romantic feelings for him. That is sufficient in my mind for "koibito" to apply to both quotes in the reciprocal fashion.
Thanks.Hawkeye said:That is a fair enough point, and I thank you for it.
I'd just like to point out that Cloud's time with Tifa is when he is having a breakdown and is hardly aware of his surroundings. On the contrary, the large span of one-on-one time with Aerith is when he is actively engaged with his surroundings.Hawkeye said:Also true. He doesn't have comparable one-on-one time with even Tifa until late in the game and on into On the Way to a Smile.
Thanks.Hawkeye said:Good points as well.
Nomura only knows the nature of their relationship as it pertains to AC, not the two years prior.Hawkeye said:I have never done this. I have only ever brought that quote up to show that the man knows the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
It is possible that during the two years prior to AC Cloud and Tifa were wavering between lovers and friends (because of the HAHW scene). Therefore the status of their relationship is unknown during these two years because they are wavering between friends and lovers. But then, by the time AC rolls around, it is clear that Cloud and Tifa will never work out, which then becomes the sad "truth" of their relationship (which wouldn't be surprising considering Nojima's premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa, and the dysfunctional relationship that we see between them with our own eyes)
I don't think it's true. I think he is being completely genuine when he says he wants all of us to have our own interpretations.Hawkeye said:He is a noncommital dickwad who thinks the word "interpretation" sounds sexy, though. It isn't character assassination if it's true.
I'm glad we agree that Cosmo Canyon is to be viewed romantically given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.Hawkeye said:More than "can be," I think it's obviously intended that way. That sort of dialogue is only ever used in that one way.
What do you think about Cait Sith's prediction and the flashback Cloud has in Aerith's house?
And again -- I'm looking at this from how SE is trying to convey ideas to the gamer.
But why did he promise to protect her? Because she offered him a date!Hawkeye said:Honestly, I think it's because she is the one he failed to protect. He blames himself for Zack too, but he hadn't promised to protect Zack only to stand by while he died.
To me, the fact that he agreed to protect her for the price of one date implies he felt something special for her that was more than a "friendship".
The fact that SE calls Aerith's forgiveness the "wish of his heart" implies it has something to do with his romantic feelings for Aerith.Hawkeye said:I really don't see a romantic undertone to how he responds to the guilt of either death. I just see Cloud being Cloud, placing the weight of the world on his shoulders and expecting too much from himself.
Yes, Cloud's wants forgiveness because he failed to protect Aerith after he agreed that he would. But why did he agree to protect her in the first place…? Given all of SE's quotes, in-game Clerith moments, and the cameo appearances, it seems obvious that he wanted to protect her because of the romantic feelings he had for her. This becomes especially clear because he agreed to protect her after she offered him a date as payment.
My point is that these reasons are all interconnected and not mutually exclusive. His inability to protect Aerith and the guilt he feels from this began initially because he felt a romantic connection to her. This romantic connection is what caused Cloud to agree to protect her in the first place when he accepted a date for payment.
----------------------------
Under the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as described by SE, it is not hard to view Cloud and Aerith's dates as the "romantic" kind.I'm going to point out that the word date is not always inherently romantic. The definition of date is "a social or romantic appointment or engagement." Note how it says social or romantic. When one says date nowadays, they usually mean the romantic kind rather than the merely social kind, but that's not always the case. For example, when I was younger, whenever I went over to a friend's house or vice versa, my mom would call it a "play date". Now since nothing romantic happened between me and my friend during any of these dates, and given that we were both heterosexual males and therefore had no romantic feelings for each other, it's clear she meant it in the social sense rather than the romantic one. So while whenever one says date nowadays 99% of the time they mean the romantic kind, people still do use the word date to refer to the merely social kind.
tl;dr date can mean both a social appointment or a romantic appointment
To me, these dates are a clear indication that Cloud and Aerith are something more than just friends. The simple fact that Cloud AGREED to go on a date with Aerith shows mutual attraction.
As for the date in the park, well, at the very least, SE views this as an intimate moment shared between two love interests -- which is typically what a date implies.
In fact, from the moment Cloud met Aerith to when they rescue Tifa, it was a clear progression of events meant to set Cloud and Aerith up as mutual love interests. What other character did Cloud have so much flirty one-on-one time with?
Plus, I'm looking at this scene from how SE is trying to convey ideas to the gamer.
By Aerith talking about her past boyfriend who was also in SOLIDER, it brings up the notion of romantic relationships. It implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack.
To me, Aerith mentioning Zack puts the idea of romantic relationships at the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting.
Last edited: