The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Selphie Tilmitt]

What does it mean that they picked Zack and Tifa as the school uniform pair?

Tack/Zifa FTW!!!

Seriously though I don't think it means anything in the sense that like I don't think Square Enix is promoting Zack and Tifa as a couple or anything. I think it's probably just a nice tribute to boys and girls restarting school/the start of a new school year in Japan.

Cloud and Aerith though I also think it's a nice tribute but also with some culture/history behind it, like with the Emperor/Empress as a pair that are placed at the top of the family tree/tiers/etc to represent family/the imperial palace on Doll's Day If I have it right Hinamatsuri/Doll's/Girl's Day the holiday which was also mentioned in another topic is a special day/holiday in Japan where before/during some people display dolls which they have special placements and groupings and everything for. If I have it right the Emperor/Empress dolls are usually a pair at the top of these platforms/tree/tier type things with their "court" or "imperial family" beneath them

PS: What do people think about the fact that Square Enix picked Cloud and Aerith as their Emperor and Empress for Final Fantasy Brigade. They become a "set" if you get them both.

I think it's quite meaningful, and another reason why I personally don't think there's a one and only true/one true canon couple with the other pairing being completely irrellevant or anything, going both ways. If Cloud and Tifa were the one true canon absolute no room for Cloud/Aerith and people weren't supposed to think otherwise or have food for thought otherwise Square Enix could easily have made Cloud Emperor with Tifa as his Empress like they are the one and only couple/they have a family etc, they could have shown this like they are the only head/pair of a family like the Emperor with his Empress

Instead they used Cloud/Aerith as their pair for this. Why do this if Cloud/Aerith are never meant to be seen/taken as a couple?

Personally I think they are definitely meant to be taken as one of the intended couples to an extent, or otherwise why do they keep confusing people like that, again they could have just used Emperor Cloud with his Empress Tifa if they wanted to put an end to it

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It could mean that, but I would have found it really weird if they had put Tifa as the Empress, to be honest with you. Cloud and Aerith are the main characters.

 

[Kittie]

I agree with Tres about Tifa and the empress thing. I wouldn't put it past SE, in thinking about character designs. Tifa has long been associated with a miniskirt, just as Aerith has been with a long dress. It actually makes sense, stylistically, for Aerith to be the empress and Tifa the schoolgirl. I really don't think we can derive any sort of canon pairings from the designs. We'd have Clerith and Fack if we did. But, yes, Cloud and Aerith are the two main characters from FFVII, along with Sephiroth, so it makes sense.

 

[BlankBeat]

BlankBeat ignoring that Nomura said he doesn't care if Cloti shit happened, not that he doesn't know.

I provided two sources where I base my translation from.

It's as if you think you are the Supreme Court of the LTD and whatever you say should be accepted as fact. News Flash: just because you believe the quote is translated differently doesn't make your translation more valid than mine.

It appears as though you have an over-inflated sense of how much weight your opinion has.

or accepting fan translations that say things he would like to hear, while refusing to accept fan translations saying things he doesn't like to hear

I could say the same about you -- that you only accept translations that you want to hear, or that you refuse to accept fan translations that say things you don't want to hear.

The relevant matter here is that Nomura said the movie he directed captures the essence of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. He, therefore, knows what the nature of that relationship is.

Yes, Nomura knows the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. But he doesn't tell us what the nature of their relationship is. Therefore, it is up to us to decide what sort of truth AC is conveying about their relationship.

The only time we hear Nomura talk about what kind of relationship they have is when he says he has "no clue".

And even if we use your translation, Nomura never confirms or denies a romantic relationship between them. So...I'm still waiting for official confirmation that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. The HAHW scene is NOT proof that a *romantic* relationship develops between them, especially when we see no romantic moments shared between them.

The bottom line is: Nomura says AC shows the "truth" about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. What, exactly, is this this truth? To me, AC shows that they will never work out, and that Tifa is completely and utterly jealous of the relationship her "love rival" has with the man she loves.

This is especially obvious when the man later talks about Tifa being someone's koibito as one of her roles in Advent Children. No matter who you think it is saying desires her -- and regardless of whether you are taking "koibito" in its colloquial sense of mutuality or its literal one-sided sense -- Nomura is expressing knowledge of Tifa's romantic life, which means he knows what is what between her and Cloud.

SE specifically says Cloud is Aerith's koibito. SE simply says Tifa is "someone's" koibito.

A: Cloud cried for Zack. He has laughed with Tifa.

Point taken.

C: BlankBeat readily accepts that Ultimania passage as canon despite ignoring the book's identical treatment of the High Affection Highwind Scene.

The HAHW scene does not prove Cloud and Tifa develop a relationship after FFVII ends because during the two years after FFVII ends, Nomura has "no clue" if they are in a relationship.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that the mutual feelings expressed in the HAHW scene develop into a *romantic* relationship. Nojima points out the premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa, which could easily mean a romantic relationship never develops between them despite the HAHW scene taking place.

D: The first date was not romantic in nature. Aerith asked if they could take a break, not have a date, and they didn't talk about anything romantic between the two of them. Neither character seemed to think of it as a date either.

SE calls this scene a "date". Dates are inherently romantic. Cloud and Aerith are getting to know one another, and it even mentions Aerith's first love, Zack. To me, this implies that Cloud is Aerith's new Zack and that we are to start viewing them under a romantic lense.

But again, you are assuming your opinion is fact by saying, "The first date was not romantic in nature." Seriously...who made you the the final word on the LTD?

According to Nomura, we are ALL free to interpret their work differently, which INCLUDES the date in the park and every other scene in FFVII and AC:

”Advent Children is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it.The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.” ~Tetsuya Nomura

This quote is EXACTLY why Nomura does NOT tell us what the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is in Advent Children. Nomura wants all of us to interpret what their truth is differently. He doesn't want to decide for us what their truth is because he wants all of us to have our own opinions:

"With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it." ~Nomura
"But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer." ~Nomura

To me, AC shows that the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is how incompatible they are. Nojima backs this up by pointing out the premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa, and the fact that he isn't sure if Denzel and Marlene will be able to help them work through their issues.

AC also shows, to me, that SE is continuing with their love beyond death theme through Cloud and Aerith's relationship. This theme has been repeated in the Final Fantasy franchise with Tidus/Yuna, Shuyin/Lenne, Laguna/Raine, and Ashe/Rasler. Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, which is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC.

E: "Confession" is a misleading word for what actually happened. Certainly it revealed something of Cloud's feelings, but it was not deliberate and there was no confession. Cloud backed up to avoid revealing anything.

To me, Cloud confessed to Aerith that he will always be there for her. Given the context of their relationship (a hero wavering between two heroines, Aerith being considered a "love rival," SE saying Cloud is Aerith's koitito, and all the moments shared between them prior to Cosmo Canyon, etc.) I viewed this confession as highly romantic.

But again -- we simply disagree. Neither one of us can say for sure what SE meant by the scene in Cosmo Canyon. All we can do is offer different interpretations. So stop pretending that you are the final word on the LTD just because you've written what you believe to be is the end-all-be-all of the "canon" Final Fantasy VII compilation.

Calling it a confession is not misleading in the least. It is only misleading IN YOUR OPINION, just to clarify.

G: An undying feeling identified as guilt in the complete quote, which BlankBeat conveniently left out of his attached bibliography. He has also had this proven to him several times, yet continues to misrepresent this quote.

Cloud's guilt is fueled by the love he had for Aerith. Why would he feel guilty if he didn't have a special connection with Aerith? His love for Aerith is the reason why he has such immense guilt over her death.

Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. Cloud's guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

His guilt and blame is linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those were.

H: Likewise with this one. Despite it being proven to him that "engraved in the heart" is a Japanese idiom meaning someone will never forget something, and even despite the official translation of the line going in that direction, BlankBeat continues to misrepresent it. Ironically, while ignoring "just fan translations" he doesn't like.

If you can't apply the term "engraved in his heart" to the context of their romantic relationship that is backed up by official SE quotes such as the koibito quote, the hero wavering between two heroines quote, the love rival quote, the cameo appearances, the numerous in-game Clerith moments such as Cait Sith's prediction and the hand reach scene, it appears as though you are in denial about what "engraved in his heart" means as it pertains to the specific relationship shown between Cloud and Aerith.

I: BlankBeat insists on this use of "koibito" being in a sense of mutuality, yet won't accept the same for the one about Tifa being someone's koibito in Advent Children.

The same can be said of you -- you won't apply the Cloud x Aerith koitito quote to the numerous in-game Clerith moments, the moments shown in AC such as Cloud living in Aerith's Church, the hand reach scene, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith.

Since SE has called Aerith Cloud's koibito, all of the things I mentioned should be viewed under a romantic lense.

K: Deliberate misrepresentation of the quote in question. The quote specifies that Aerith is leaving and says nothing of Cloud's Promised Land being with her. Said quote emphasizes him being free of his guilt, everyone being healed, and all the people he loves being around him. Also going ignored is that he had been staying at the church for a while up until that point, yet had still been miserable until this moment when all the components I mentioned above applied. His Promised Land was the situation, not a dilapidated building.

I simply have a different interpretation of the quote.

Given how Cloud finds comfort and happiness at Aerith's Church before his diagnosis and during AC, it seems perfectly reasonable to view Aerith's Church as Cloud's Promised Land -- especially when you consider the romantic context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. This is further backed up by the jealously Tifa feels over Cloud visiting Aerith's Church, which further proves the strong connection Cloud and Aerith have beyond death -- a connection that has been a repeated theme with Final Fantasy couples -- the idea that love can transcend traditional barriers and enter the spiritual world.

 

[Strangelove]

Wasn't that interview released a month or so after the original AC came out, though (I think it was in October 2005)? Case of Tifa had been released in the AC Prologue book at the same time as the film.

Now that I think about it, Shouko Nakagawa does mention having seen AC in the interview which would suggest it was post-release (or they gave her an early copy). I have the magazine itself somewhere, but I don't know where exactly. (There was actually another I really want to find out because I didn't get to finish reading it before it was misplaced and now I'm mad about magazines I can't find.)

an undying feeling for Aerith (G) that becomes engraved in his heart

These were also two completely separate quotes (the former is from a pre-release AC interview, and the latter from Dirge of Cerberus' manual). They aren't related in the way this makes it sound.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I provided two sources where I base my translation from.

I know you did, and -- as much as I appreciate that effort -- you won't look at why those aren't entirely accurate.

I could say the same about you -- that you only accept translations that you want to hear, or that you refuse to accept fan translations that say things you don't want to hear.

You could say that, sure, but it would not be true. I double-check every LTD fan translation that comes down the pipeline and provide others with the tools to do the same.

By the way, I do notice that you lopped off the rest of that sentence where you were quoting me: "... and on the basis that 'they are 'just fan translations.'" Thanks for trying to strip what I said out of context, though; doesn't make you look dishonest or anything.

Yes, Nomura knows the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. But he doesn't tell us what the nature of their relationship is. Therefore, it is up to us to decide what sort of truth AC is conveying about their relationship.

The only time we hear Nomura talk about what kind of relationship they have is when he says he has "no clue".

Please review the two sentences of yours that I have placed in bold. Now, please also pick one of those positions and stick with it.

You constantly claim he doesn't know, and that, therefore (i.e. the previous clause is the basis of the following), nothing can be said to be certain. And yet, here you concede that he knows.

Please. Pick. A. Position.

This stuff you do when it comes to Nomura drives me nuts.

And even if we use your translation, Nomura never confirms or denies a romantic relationship between them. So...I'm still waiting for official confirmation that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. The HAHW scene is NOT proof that a *romantic* relationship develops between them, especially when we see no romantic moments shared between them.

The bottom line is: Nomura says AC shows the "truth" about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. What, exactly, is this this truth? To me, AC shows that they will never work out, and that Tifa is completely and utterly jealous of the relationship her "love rival" has with the man she loves.

No, the bottom line is that you parade "he doesn't know" as some trump card when you know full well that it's baseless because he does know. You yourself said as much: "Yes, Nomura knows the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship."

So stop doing it for God's sake.

SE specifically says Cloud is Aerith's koibito. SE simply says Tifa is "someone's" koibito.

And based on how you're applying "koibito," Cloud is specified in the other quote as well. You insist that its use of Cloud being Aerith's koibito must be reciprocal; why do you not apply it the same way to the other quote, where we know Tifa's romantic feelings are for Cloud?

Like so many of your arguments, it's a double-standard.

I want to ask you a question.

For the sake of the question, we can ignore that if one use of the word had to be one-sided it would more likely be the story with fancy prose. We can also ignore that if one use of the word had to be in the colloquialized reciprocal fashion that people use in every day parlance, it would most likely be in the off-the-cuff interview with Nomura where he's just a dude talking.

We can even ignore that no one but Cloud fits the candidacy for a movie where Tifa's roles are described as "like a mother, is an ally in battle, and is a koibito" -- even when she has no significant interaction with any other male but Denzel.

I'm going to let you off the hook on replying to those. I know you wouldn't have anyway, but don't even worry about them.

So, here's the question: I have no problem applying both koibito quotes in the sense of mutuality. Why do you?

The HAHW scene does not prove Cloud and Tifa develop a relationship after FFVII ends because during the two years after FFVII ends, Nomura has "no clue" if they are in a relationship.

=| ... A little progress gained, but so quickly we backtrack.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that the mutual feelings expressed in the HAHW scene develop into a *romantic* relationship. Nojima points out the premise that things don't go well between Cloud and Tifa, which could easily mean a romantic relationship never develops between them despite the HAHW scene taking place.

Please don't distort the quote. He said "aren't going well," not "don't go well." Ginormous difference.

SE calls this scene a "date". Dates are inherently romantic. Cloud and Aerith are getting to know one another, and it even mentions Aerith's first love, Zack. To me, this implies that Cloud is Aerith's new Zack and that we are to start viewing them under a romantic lense.

That's well and good and I don't disagree. However, the "date" was not romantic, nothing romantic was discussed, and neither character viewed it as a date.

For that matter, SE otherwise calls the Gold Saucer date both "the promised date" and their "first and last date" on more than one occasion, so it's an odd matter for numerous reasons.

But again, you are assuming your opinion is fact by saying, "The first date was not romantic in nature." Seriously...who made you the the final word on the LTD?

I'm not assuming crap. Look at the scene. It isn't romantic at all. The characters don't even consider the promised date matter resolved.

According to Nomura, we are ALL free to interpret their work differently, which INCLUDES the date in the park and every other scene in FFVII and AC:

Which means precisely dick. You can misinterpret that Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz are former members of SOLDIER (as a number of fans did when AC was first released) all day; that will not change that there are official answers to who and what they are, as well as to a great many other questions about the movie.

That will also not change that Nomura is not the sole authority.

That will also not change that Yoshinori Kitase himself said that Nojima is the "top authority" on "anything relating to the stories":

"Anything relating to the stories, Mr Nojima, who is no longer with Square Enix is really still the top authority."

Nomura, meanwhile, is said to be the guy for "a little of the backstory around the characters."

This quote is EXACTLY why Nomura does NOT tell us what the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is in Advent Children.

And so we're back to acknowledging that the "no clue" thing is bullcrap. One step forward, two steps back, one step forward -- it's like a dance. Just not, you know, fun or pretty to look at.

AC also shows, to me, that SE is continuing with their love beyond death theme through Cloud and Aerith's relationship. This theme has been repeated in the Final Fantasy franchise with Tidus/Yuna, Shuyin/Lenne, Laguna/Raine, and Ashe/Rasler. Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, which is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC.

There's one similarity there I can agree on: Both Cloud and Vincent were people dragging the past around and who had to learn to let go.

To me, Cloud confessed to Aerith that he will always be there for her. Given the context of their relationship (a hero wavering between two heroines, Aerith being considered a "love rival," SE saying Cloud is Aerith's koitito, and all the moments shared between them prior to Cosmo Canyon, etc.) I viewed this confession as highly romantic.

But again -- we simply disagree. Neither one of us can say for sure what SE meant by the scene in Cosmo Canyon. All we can do is offer different interpretations. So stop pretending that you are the final word on the LTD just because you've written what you believe to be is the end-all-be-all of the "canon" Final Fantasy VII compilation.

I'm not pretending shit. I'm not even saying it wasn't romantic. I'm simply telling you the content of the scene. There was no confession. Cloud started to slip up, caught himself and backtracked.

Feelings were made evident there to the player and presumably no one else. Aerith certainly doesn't say anything about it, so who knows if she even caught it. Cloud sure didn't make certain that she did. There was no confession..

Calling it a confession is not misleading in the least. It is only misleading IN YOUR OPINION, just to clarify.

You're right. Other than in my opinion and the dictionary's, I suppose it's not the wrong word to use at all.

Cloud's guilt is fueled by the love he had for Aerith. Why would he feel guilty if he didn't have a special connection with Aerith?

I don't know. Let's ask Barret, Cloud and Tifa why they feel guilty with regard to all the nameless, faceless people they killed in Midgar.

And I haven't said Cloud and Aerith don't have a special connection. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

His love for Aerith is the reason why he has such immense guilt over her death.

I guess this applies to Zack as well?

Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. Cloud's guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

No disagreement there.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

His guilt and blame is linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those were.

And I don't disagree with any of that.

However, you are so deadset opposed to acknowleding that Cloud had romantic feelings for Tifa as well that it gets absurd. Having feelings for Tifa does not in any way diminish what he felt for Aerith, nor does it make her death any less painful for him, nor is the guilt any easier to bear.

I don't understand why you act like it would.

If you can't apply the term "engraved in his heart" to the context of their romantic relationship that is backed up by official SE quotes such as the koibito quote, the hero wavering between two heroines quote, the love rival quote, the cameo appearances, the numerous in-game Clerith moments such as Cait Sith's prediction and the hand reach scene, it appears as though you are in denial about what "engraved in his heart" means as it pertains to the specific relationship shown between Cloud and Aerith.

Woods do not have a neck. The world is not a handkerchief. That is all.

The same can be said of you -- you won't apply the Cloud x Aerith koitito quote to the numerous in-game Clerith moments, the moments shown in AC such as Cloud living in Aerith's Church, the hand reach scene, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith.

Uh, yes, I will?

Well, not to Cloud living in her church, no, because the dude went there for self-torture and to beg forgiveness. And not to the hand reach scene either.

But to the rest of it? Sure.

So, yeah, you could say that about me too -- but, again, you would be wrong. It's not true.

Given how Cloud finds comfort and happiness at Aerith's Church before his diagnosis and during AC, it seems perfectly reasonable to view Aerith's Church as Cloud's Promised Land -- especially when you consider the romantic context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

ONLY HE DOESN'T. The dude is fucking miserable until the end of the movie. He goes there for atonement.

Conversely, we have been flat out told more than once that he was happy at Seventh Heaven.

 

[Ryushikaze]

On the subject of the two distinct Koibitos things, NO, SE DOES NOT FUCKING EVER SAY THAT CLOUD IS AERITH'S KOIBITO.

INSTEAD, dear children, the line from a third person limited novella- IE- from a character's own viewpoint, states that Cloud was the Koibito or Beloved of WOMAN. WOMAN is never named. Ever. Seriously. Go reread lifestream white. You will never see a name in there. Sure, there are a few hints to figure out who the fuck it is, but there's also plenty of context clues to figure out who Tifa is the koibito to.

Additionally, I mentioned that Lifestream white is third person limited- that means the narrator is echoing the thoughts of a single person, not speaking in a universal sense. If my narrator believes that rubbing lemons over his body makes him invisible to security cameras and write that in a short story, it doesn't make it true for the universe he inhabits. Similarly, Woman considers Cloud her Koibito. She can ONLY mean Cloud is her beloved, since Cloud was not in a relationship with anyone prior to the events of FF7. He cannot, therefore, be the lover of anyone who died before the end of the game. That's simple fact.

The comment regarding Tifa, however, is an extrauniversal statement- it's a statement that one of Tifa's roles in the world is that of someone's beloved or even lover. It DOES make that fact.

And it means Nomura fucking knows about Cloud and Tifa's relationship. So I'm going to jump on the shouty bandwagon again and repeat STOP FUCKING CLAIMING THAT HE DOESN'T.

I'm also going to echo Tres's sentiments about your duplicitous nature being rude and shitty, because they are true. I would rather be the honest asshole than a liar. You sir, are being two faced.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I wanted to add something to the discussion, considering how much is being thrown around in her the last few days. But really...

I'm also going to echo Tres's sentiments about your duplicitous nature being rude and shitty, because they are true. I would rather be the honest asshole than a liar. You sir, are being two faced.

That's about all I could think of at the moment anyway, and Ryu done said it.

 

[BlankBeat]

I know you did, and -- as much as I appreciate that effort -- you won't look at why those aren't entirely accurate.

We will have to agree to disagree about the translation. Neither one of us can say for certain what the official translation is because there isn't one.

But in both translations, Nomura did NOT confirm that a relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after FFVII ends. That, by itself, speaks volumes.

In fact, what we see in CoT and AC reinforces the narrative that a romantic relationship post-FFVII did not develop between Cloud and Tifa.

By the way, I do notice that you lopped off the rest of that sentence where you were quoting me: "... and on the basis that 'they are 'just fan translations.'" Thanks for trying to strip what I said out of context, though; doesn't make you look dishonest or anything.

Your full post with the "proper context" is in this thread for everyone to read. I'm simply quoting the part I'm responding to.

therefore[/b] (i.e. the previous clause is the basis of the following), nothing can be said to be certain. And yet, here you concede that he knows.

Please. Pick. A. Position.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Let's see if I can break this down.

Nomura says he either "doesn't know" or "doesn't care" if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship during the two years after FFVII. This is the time period prior to the beginning of Advent Children.

Then, Nomura says Advent Children tells us the "truth" about Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

His two quotes are directed towards two different time periods.

His first quote where he says he "doesn't know" or "doesn't care" is proof that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship during the two years after FFVII ends.

His second quote where he says AC shows us the "truth" about Cloud and Tifa's relationship is talking about the time after these two years have elapsed.

Therefore, Nomura has no idea about Cloud and Tifa's relationship two years after FFVII takes place, but then he tells us that the truth about their relationship is shown during AC. Nomura knows about their relationship in AC, but he doesn't know about their relationship for the two years prior to AC.

Nomura also says he has his own interpretation of things, but that viewers are free to interpret things differently from the staff ("The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer." ~Nomura)

So yes, Nomura knows the truth of Cloud and Tifa's relationship during AC, but he has no idea about the status of their relationship during the two years prior to AC. Since Nomura has no idea about the two years post-FFVII/pre-AC, this voids the HAHW scene because the HAHW scene comes before the two years Nomura doesn't know or doesn't care about.

As for the time period when he does know the truth about their relationship, he is careful not to tell us what he believes this truth is. He goes even further and says we can all interpret their work differently. This confirms that we can all view Cloud and Tifa's truth differently. There is no canon answer, only different interpretations. My interpretation is that they are inherently dysfunctional and not meant to be together. Nojima backs my theory up with his premise that things "won't go well" between Cloud and Tifa, especially because CoT and AC shows us that things don't go well.

Also -- since Nomura doesn't know about the two years pre-AC, there is no foundation to say Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship by the time AC begins.

So, here's the question: I have no problem applying both koibito quotes in the sense of mutuality. Why do you?

I've already agreed that there is evidence on both sides because this is a love triangle. I'm simply explaining my Clerith interpretation.

=| ... A little progress gained, but so quickly we backtrack.

It wasn't a backtrack. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. You can believe the love triangle is up to interpretation but also have a Clerith interpretation. I'm simply explaining my Clerith interpretation, while also maintaining that the official canon answer is that the LTD is up to interpretation.

Please don't distort the quote. He said "aren't going well," not "don't go well." Ginormous difference.

Ok, fine. The premise Nojima gives validity to is that things "aren't going well" between Cloud and Tifa. The premise that Nojima speaks of is reinforced, IMO, by the dysfunction we see between Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC.

That's well and good and I don't disagree. However, the "date" was not romantic, nothing romantic was discussed, and neither character viewed it as a date.

For that matter, SE otherwise calls the Gold Saucer date both "the promised date" and their "first and last date" on more than one occasion, so it's an odd matter for numerous reasons.

SE called it a date so it's a date. Dates are inherently romantic. Period.

And to me, the conversation they had in the park was very romantic, especially with the topic of Zack being brought up.

That will also not change that Nomura is not the sole authority.

Weren't you the one saying I won't accept anything that challenges my opinions?

It seems you are now the one who won't accept anything Nomura has said because it challenges your preconceived notions. Instead of looking at the content of his quote, you are now trying to shoot the messenger.

Anyway -- Nomura is more of an authority than you are. I'd take his word over yours any day. But keep on using the tactic of character assassination to try to discredit him.

There's one similarity there I can agree on: Both Cloud and Vincent were people dragging the past around and who had to learn to let go.

Yes, both Cloud and Vincent share a spiritual connection with someone they love. They each have a love that has persisted and continued beyond death.

This theme of love beyond death is repeated with several Final Fantasy couples. I list the couples in my previous posts.

I'm not pretending shit. I'm not even saying it wasn't romantic. I'm simply telling you the content of the scene. There was no confession. Cloud started to slip up, caught himself and backtracked.

Feelings were made evident there to the player and presumably no one else. Aerith certainly doesn't say anything about it, so who knows if she even caught it. Cloud sure didn't make certain that she did. There was no confession..

I'm not here to argue about the word "confession".

Personally, I viewed Cloud saying he was there for Aerith under a romantic lens because of all we know about Cloud and Aerith's relationship (Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, Cloud promising to take Aerith on the Highwind, Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, Cait Sith's wedding prediction, etc.). This is further supported by SE's koibito quote, the quote that says FFVII has a hero that wavers between two love interests, the "love rival" quote, Tifa's jealously, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith (flower field ending in Dissidia, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the ending of Kingdom Hearts in unison with Nomura's quote). When you combine all of these things together (official quotes, in-game moments, cameo appearances, etc.), it is not hard to see how certain moments between Cloud and Aerith are inherently romantic -- especially the hand reach scene, the conversation during Cosmo Canyon, and the burial scene.

We must look at all of the pieces of the puzzle together in order to have the proper context. Therefore, given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship based on the things I mentioned above, the moment in Cosmo Canyon perfectly fits into the romantic narrative between Cloud and Aerith, IMO.

And I haven't said Cloud and Aerith don't have a special connection. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

I guess this applies to Zack as well?

No disagreement there.

Zack and Cloud do not share romantic moments like Cloud and Aerith do.
Furthermore, Zack and Cloud do not have the same spiritual connection that Cloud has with Aerith.

It seems obvious that the reasons for Cloud's guilt over their deaths are fueled by different types of feelings.

I believe Cloud's guilt for Zack is derived from the friendship and camaraderie they shared, whereas the guilt Cloud has towards Aerith's death is because of their romantic relationship that is established through in-game Clerith moments, official SE quotes, and cameo appearances.

It's funny that you say you don't disagree with me that Cloud's guilt is fueled by the feelings he developed for both Aerith and Zack, yet you try to downplay this when I try to say Cloud visiting Aerith's Church (aka his Promised Land) has to do with the romantic feelings he has for her.

Sure, Cloud visits Aerith's Church because he feels guilty. But he is guilty because of the feelings he had for Aerith. These two things are one-in-the-same. His love for Aerith fuels his guilt.

So when you say Cloud visited the Church because of his guilty feelings, I say Cloud is only guilty because he loved Aerith and therefore feels guilty. You don't disagree that his guilt is from the feelings he developed for Aerith, so why can't that be part of the reason why he is visiting Aerith's Church?

----------------------

I'm also going to echo Tres's sentiments about your duplicitous nature being rude and shitty, because they are true. I would rather be the honest asshole than a liar. You sir, are being two faced.

Need some pom poms?

 

[Unlucky]

Yes, finally someone said it!

edit: ninja'd

 

[BlankBeat]

I can see this thread is only going to get uglier. Granted, I'm not completely innocent but when you're outnumbered, it's never fun.

Just might be my time to exit yet again

 

[Junko Enoshima]

@Hawkeye::
I have no reason to believe anyone here is a liar. Just because you don't know someone is no reason to be so aggressive when it comes to their opinion but that's just my thought. I just find it a bit ridiculous to have to get so worked up over it. And if you say you're not worked up it appears differently. I'm just glad you own up to your opinion and how you say it. If you had tried to deny the way you were acting I would have found it a bit ridiculous. I've just found that speaking in that way tends to offend others and cause problems and I try not to resort to it unless the situation calls for it. I do find it baffling that someone would believe it is OK to call someone's opinion stupid, retarded, lame, and so on unless it were something offensive in itself like "Gay people are bad". This is off topic though but that was my thought I am not going to put myself into a "lying" group since it doesn't exist and I will not choose between people who I don't know either. Therefore I won't lump myself together with anyone and will just speak on behalf of Clerith which is what I came here to do in the first place lol. Being an honest asshole is fine but at least own up to what you're doing.

And to Splintered and I guess anyone else that seems to believe that I said relationships don't have complications: I never said such a thing. I believe all relationships reach rough patches because that is the reality of our world. I just don't believe in the way Cloud and Tifa handle their problems to be considered romantic and I don't believe they ever left the friendship stage. The way Tifa is hurt and the way they handle things doesn't appear like a healthy romantic relationship to me and it seems they have issues to work out FIRST before it could ever be considered.

For the Emperor/Empress thing I feel it's a big sign towards Clerith. They could have chosen Cloud and Aerith to be any other match, so why Emperor and Empress? I feel like they are showing a connection to Cait Sith's prediction and this pair. Zack and Tifa are secondary main characters that are put into their own matching set while Cloud and Aerith are the hero and the heroine.

I find the koibito discussion to be funny. I think it's obviously saying Cloud is Aerith and Tifa's koibito meaning they see him that way. It's Cloud that everyone should be focusing on because it's never said as directly as to who he likes which is why we're all debating in the first place lol. I never go into arguments about it because I think it's silly.

 

[Dashell]

I can see this thread is only going to get uglier. Granted, I'm not completely innocent but when you're outnumbered, it's never fun.

Just might be my time to exit yet again

Honestly I think Tres is the only one you have to really reply to right now. I wouldn't worry about anyone else.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We will have to agree to disagree about the translation. Neither one of us can say for certain what the official translation is because there isn't one.

Accepting one translation as the accurate one creates a situation where you have to assume Nomura is either lying or can't remember what he says from one interview to the next.

Accepting the other keeps everything running smoothly.

Why would you ever assume the second one isn't the correct one?

But in both translations, Nomura did NOT confirm that a relationship exists between Cloud and Tifa after FFVII ends. That, by itself, speaks volumes.

Not ... really.

A quote where Nomura says he doesn't care who's banging who doesn't speak to anything other than that Nomura doesn't give a crap about the irrelevant things that fans consume themselves with.

Your full post with the "proper context" is in this thread for everyone to read. I'm simply quoting the part I'm responding to.

By removing part of my statement, what you responded to become something other than what I had said.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Let's see if I can break this down.

Nomura says he either "doesn't know" or "doesn't care" if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship during the two years after FFVII. This is the time period prior to the beginning of Advent Children.

Then, Nomura says Advent Children tells us the "truth" about Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

His two quotes are directed towards two different time periods.

Advent Children is just the culmination of stuff that happened in that two years, though. It happens over the course of a day or so, and all the interaction between Cloud and Tifa there is a direct result of things that happened in On the Way to a Smile. It builds directly off the other work.

For Advent Children to reflect their relationship, Nomura has to know what happened in those two years. At the very least, it's ridiculous to imagine that he and Nojima never discussed Case of Tifa.

Again, the "don't care" translation is the only one that makes sense.

His first quote where he says he "doesn't know" or "doesn't care" is proof that the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship during the two years after FFVII ends.

How would him not caring mean that?

Nomura also says he has his own interpretation of things, but that viewers are free to interpret things differently from the staff ("The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer." ~Nomura)

Once again, the staff's answers are the ones we're concerned about. That's what the canon is.

If someone wants to interpret that Kadaj is another former member of SOLDIER or someone else who popped out from the Jenova Project, they're just wrong.

Same deal with that wolf. It's been established (even by Nomura himself) that it represents Cloud's guilt and regrets. Any other interpretation is wrong.

I've already agreed that there is evidence on both sides because this is a love triangle. I'm simply explaining my Clerith interpretation.

Answer the question: Why will you only allow the reciprocal use of the word in the one instance? You're not going to avoid this except by running away from the discussion. I will not let you "Marlene's sins" me on this.

It wasn't a backtrack. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

They really are.

You can believe the love triangle is up to interpretation but also have a Clerith interpretation.

That isn't the dichotomy up for discussion at the moment, but, yeah, that's not possible either.

SE called it a date so it's a date. Dates are inherently romantic. Period.

They also said the Gold Saucer date was their first and last, so something is off. Just saying.

Anyway, yeah, dates are inherently romantic. But that scene isn't set up like a date and the characters don't consider it one -- that's all I'm trying to point out.

And to me, the conversation they had in the park was very romantic, especially with the topic of Zack being brought up.

I find that kind of confusing. Bringing up exes is generally not seen as a very romantic thing.

Weren't you the one saying I won't accept anything that challenges my opinions?

It seems you are now the one who won't accept anything Nomura has said because it challenges your preconceived notions. Instead of looking at the content of his quote, you are now trying to shoot the messenger.

I have addressed his quote plenty. I'm also not refusing to accept what he has said.

I've simply pointed out that he didn't say what you keep saying he said, and that even if he had, he doesn't have the final word on this stuff. Kitase said that word belongs to Nojima.

Anyway -- Nomura is more of an authority than you are. I'd take his word over yours any day. But keep on using the tactic of character assassination to try to discredit him.

I'm not even going after his character. I've directly quoted Kitase. Take it up with him.

Yes, both Cloud and Vincent share a spiritual connection with someone they love. They each have a love that has persisted and continued beyond death.

And both of them dragged their asses around like mopey morons until they got a proper kick in the ass. Their behavior was portrayed as extremely unhealthy.

I'm not here to argue about the word "confession".

Then don't.

Personally, I viewed Cloud saying he was there for Aerith under a romantic lens because of all we know about Cloud and Aerith's relationship (Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, Cloud promising to take Aerith on the Highwind, Cloud and Aerith flirting in their jail cells at the Shinra headquarters, and two canon dates, Cait Sith's wedding prediction, etc.). This is further supported by SE's koibito quote, the quote that says FFVII has a hero that wavers between two love interests, the "love rival" quote, Tifa's jealously, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith (flower field ending in Dissidia, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the ending of Kingdom Hearts in unison with Nomura's quote). When you combine all of these things together (official quotes, in-game moments, cameo appearances, etc.), it is not hard to see how certain moments between Cloud and Aerith are inherently romantic -- especially the hand reach scene, the conversation during Cosmo Canyon, and the burial scene.

We must look at all of the pieces of the puzzle together in order to have the proper context.

Which is why it's really baffling that you refuse to do that with something like the Reunion Files koibito quote.

Therefore, given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship based on the things I mentioned above, the moment in Cosmo Canyon perfectly fits into the romantic narrative between Cloud and Aerith, IMO.

I don't disagree.

Zack and Cloud do not share romantic moments like Cloud and Aerith do.
Furthermore, Zack and Cloud do not have the same spiritual connection that Cloud has with Aerith.

Agreed. I just wanted to remind you that he has guilt over them both, and that guilt, therefore, doesn't denote ongoing romantic feelings.

It's funny that you say you don't disagree with me that Cloud's guilt is fueled by the feelings he developed for both Aerith and Zack, yet you try to downplay this when I try to say Cloud visiting Aerith's Church has to do with the romantic feelings he has for her.

There's nothing to downplay, though. There isn't anything romantic about a self-destructive jaunt down Survivor's Guilt Lane. The guy wants forgiveness. Getting Aerith's forgiveness is identified in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania as "the wish in his heart."

Neither that book nor any other nor Cloud himself in the movie ever says anything about romantic yearning. Cloud isn't thinking about romance. Even if he believed an ongoing relationship were possible, he wouldn't have thought it was going to happen.

He believed that Aerith hated him. He thought she blamed him for her getting killed. He thought she sent him an orphaned little boy (whose parents' deaths he indirectly played a role in) as a means to atone.

He spent two years thinking this sort of stuff. Where does romance enter into that equation?

Sure, Cloud visits Aerith's Church because he feels guilty. But he is guilty because of the feelings he had for Aerith. These two things are one-in-the-same. His love for Aerith fuels his guilt.

So when you say Cloud visited the Church because of his guilty feelings, I say Cloud is only guilty because he loved Aerith and therefore feels guilty. You don't disagree that his guilt is from the feelings he developed for Aerith, so why can't that be part of the reason why he is visiting Aerith's Church?

In a sense, it is part of the reason, as it no doubt contributes to the extreme extent to which the guilt eats at him. What I'm taking issue with are the suggestions that he would only feel guilty due to romantic love, and that he was getting some kind of comfort/happiness out of being at the church that was superior to what he got at home.

@Hawkeye::
I have no reason to believe anyone here is a liar. Just because you don't know someone is no reason to be so aggressive when it comes to their opinion but that's just my thought. I just find it a bit ridiculous to have to get so worked up over it. And if you say you're not worked up it appears differently.

It's more the opposite -- familiarity led to the aggressive reaction. In any case, yes, I certainly got worked up. More so than I'd intended or am proud of.

I'm just glad you own up to your opinion and how you say it. If you had tried to deny the way you were acting I would have found it a bit ridiculous. I've just found that speaking in that way tends to offend others and cause problems and I try not to resort to it unless the situation calls for it.

Honestly, I was offended myself, but I probably got worked up faster than the situation actually called for it.

I do find it baffling that someone would believe it is OK to call someone's opinion stupid, retarded, lame, and so on unless it were something offensive in itself like "Gay people are bad".

Generally, I agree. The familiarity I spoke of led to me feeling differently about it, but that has nothing to do with you, and so I hope I didn't drag you into it too much. I'm sorry.

This is off topic though but that was my thought I am not going to put myself into a "lying" group since it doesn't exist and I will not choose between people who I don't know either. Therefore I won't lump myself together with anyone and will just speak on behalf of Clerith which is what I came here to do in the first place lol.

Fair enough. I'm sorry if I came at you too aggressively. My frustration was mainly for BlankBeat, but I guess I got kind of frustrated with you as well a couple of days ago.

For the Emperor/Empress thing I feel it's a big sign towards Clerith. They could have chosen Cloud and Aerith to be any other match, so why Emperor and Empress? I feel like they are showing a connection to Cait Sith's prediction and this pair. Zack and Tifa are secondary main characters that are put into their own matching set while Cloud and Aerith are the hero and the heroine.

That they are the main characters is why I think they were chosen for those roles in referencing the Hinamatsuri holiday. It wouldn't ring true to put Tifa in that spot.

I find the koibito discussion to be funny. I think it's obviously saying Cloud is Aerith and Tifa's koibito meaning they see him that way.

In the quote from Case of the Lifestream White, Cloud is the koibito of "the woman." In Nomura's Reunion Files quote, Tifa is the koibito. The person who is the koibito is the recipient of the desire/love.

On the subject of the two distinct Koibitos things, NO, SE DOES NOT FUCKING EVER SAY THAT CLOUD IS AERITH'S KOIBITO.

INSTEAD, dear children, the line from a third person limited novella- IE- from a character's own viewpoint, states that Cloud was the Koibito or Beloved of WOMAN. WOMAN is never named. Ever. Seriously. Go reread lifestream white. You will never see a name in there. Sure, there are a few hints to figure out who the fuck it is, but there's also plenty of context clues to figure out who Tifa is the koibito to.

Pedantic as it may seem, that's a legitimate point. The same sort of reasoning that lets you identify "the woman" shouuld help you identify who Tifa is a koibito to.

Your reasoning shouldn't go "Like a mother -- well, that must be to Marlene and Denzel. Tha's significant to the movie. And an ally in battle -- well, obvious enough: the other members of AVALANCHE. They are also in the movie.

Oh, and someone loves her. Well, that must be Johnny. Though she barely knows him and he isn't mentioned at all in the movie."

 

[BlankBeat]

A quote where Nomura says he doesn't care who's banging who doesn't speak to anything other than that Nomura doesn't give a crap about the irrelevant things that fans consume themselves with.

That's only if your translation is the correct one.

Regardless of which translation is correct, I still find it it very telling that when Nomura was asked point blank about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, he said that he either doesn't have a clue or that he simply doesn't care.

Advent Children is just the culmination of stuff that happened in that two years, though.

If AC is the culmination of the stuff that happened during the two years prior, where is it firmly established during those two years that Cloud and Tifa are in a *romantic* relationship? Going with my translation, Nomura does not have a clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship during the two years prior to AC.

For Advent Children to reflect their relationship, Nomura has to know what happened in those two years. At the very least, it's ridiculous to imagine that he and Nojima never discussed Case of Tifa.

Again, the "don't care" translation is the only one that makes sense.

Well, what happened during those two years? Where is it established during those two years that a romantic relationship developed between Cloud and Tifa? According to Nojima, there's a premise that things don't go well between them. To me, this premise seems entirely plausible based on the dysfunction that we see in CoT and AC.

Maybe the "truth" that Nomura speaks of is that Cloud and Tifa will never work out? We see lots of dysfunctional behavior during both the two years prior to AC and the time in which AC takes place. Therefore, the truth of their relationship could be many things.

Once again, the staff's answers are the ones we're concerned about. That's what the canon is.

…maybe the canon answer is that we are all free to interpret the LTD for ourselves? Furthermore, none of the creators have ever said point blank that Cloud loves either Aerith or Tifa in a romantic sense. Until then, all we can do is provide our own opinions and interpretations about who we think Cloud loves.

(Nomura's quote about how fans are free to interpret things differently backs up this line of thinking. In fact, it seems as if Nomura wants fans to have different opinions, which points to the fact that SE is often times purposely ambiguous, especially with regards to the LTD)

Answer the question: Why will you only allow the reciprocal use of the word in the one instance? You're not going to avoid this except by running away from the discussion. I will not let you "Marlene's sins" me on this.

I answered the "Marlene's sins" question. Just because you don't accept my answer doesn't mean my answer is incorrect. It just means we have a difference of opinion.

Anyway -- I'll only view both koibito quotes as reciprocal if you also view both as reciprocal.

If we both do this, then we both agree that both couples are canon.

They really are.

They really aren't

If the LTD is up to interpretation, everyone is free to have either a Cloti or Clerith interpretation. I'm simply explaining my Clerith interpretation.

They also said the Gold Saucer date was their first and last, so something is off. Just saying.

Anyway, yeah, dates are inherently romantic. But that scene isn't set up like a date and the characters don't consider it one -- that's all I'm trying to point out.

This has been repeatedly pointed out to me numerous times. So you can't stop telling me. The bottom line is that SE calls this scene a date. Therefore, at the very least, SE views this as an intimate moment shared between two love interests -- which is typically what a date implies.

In fact, from the moment Cloud met Aerith to when they rescue Tifa, it was a clear progression of events meant to set Cloud and Aerith up as mutual love interests. What other character did Cloud have so much flirty one-on-one time with?

I find that kind of confusing. Bringing up exes is generally not seen as a very romantic thing.

As with my reasoning towards Cait Sith's wedding prediction, and my reasoning towards Cloud's Mom's flashback occurring while in Aerith's house, I'm looking at this from how SE is trying to convey ideas to the gamer.

By Aerith talking about her past boyfriend who was also in SOLIDER, it brings up the notion of romantic relationships. It implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack.

To me, Aerith mentioning Zack puts the idea of romantic relationships at the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting.

I've simply pointed out that he didn't say what you keep saying he said, and that even if he had, he doesn't have the final word on this stuff. Kitase said that word belongs to Nojima.

And you are not the final word on what Nomura said. Your translation is not more valid than mine just because you say so.

I'm not even going after his character. I've directly quoted Kitase. Take it up with him.

In post #4733 you said this about Nomura:

"Nomura is categorically full of crap……He's just a non-commital dickwad who thinks it's sexy to throw the word "interpretation" around." ~Hawkeye

Seems like an attempted smear towards his credibility.

Funny -- you use Nomura's "truth" quote to prove Cloti (even though we have no idea what this "truth" is). Yet when Nomura talks about everything being up to interpretation, or anything else you don't like, you call him a "dickwad" who isn't necessarily the "final word" on this stuff.

This seems like a classic case of a double standard. You use his quotes when they support your position, but when they poke holes in your position you attack his credibility and make sure to point out that he isn't the "final word" on this stuff. Clever, but very hypocritical debate tactic.

Then don't.

I won't

I don't disagree.

I'm glad you agree that the Cosmo Canyon conversation can be viewed romantically given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

Here's a recap of the context of their relationship:
-Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date
-Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
-Cloud and Aerith flirt in their jail cells at Shinra headquarters, Tifa then get's jealous of her love rival
-Cloud and Aerith share two canon dates -- dates are inherently romantic
-Cait Sith's wedding prediction becomes more painful after Aerith's death because they had the possibility (based on mutual attraction) to get married
-The imagery during the burial scene
-The hand reach scene in both FFVII and AC (hand holding is a common behavior for romantic couples)
-The cameo appearances of Cloud and Aerith (especially FFIX, FFT, and Kingdom Hearts)
-The established love triangle of a hero wavering between two love interests
-SE referring to Aerith as a "love rival"
-Numerous official quotes from SE, such as calling Cloud Aerith's koibito

Agreed. I just wanted to remind you that he has guilt over them both, and that guilt, therefore, doesn't denote ongoing romantic feelings.

Right. It's my interpretation (based on the evidence I've provided) that Cloud does, in fact, have ongoing romantic feelings for Aerith.

Love beyond death is a repeated theme between several Final Fantasy couples, a theme that I believe Cloud and Aerith embody.

There's nothing to downplay, though. There isn't anything romantic about a self-destructive jaunt down Survivor's Guilt Lane. The guy wants forgiveness. Getting Aerith's forgiveness is identified in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania as "the wish in his heart."

Yes. Cloud wants Aerith's forgiveness above all else.

Why was Cloud's guilt over Aerith's death stronger than his guilt over Zack's death?
Why did Cloud want Aerith's (not Zack's) forgiveness above all else?
Why was the "wish in his heart" for Aerith's forgiveness and not Zack's?

To me, it's because his guilt over Aerith's death has a romantic undertone, whereas his guilt over Zack's death doesn't. Cloud and Aerith had a romantic connection together, which is why Cloud wants to be forgiven by Aerith more than anything.

It is Aerith's forgiveness, not Zack's forgiveness, that Cloud seeks most of all. And the reason for this is because Cloud and Aerith shared a romantic connection while Cloud and Zack did not.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thanks for the inputs on Hinamatsuri/Doll's Day peeps

**
Cloud and Tifa are the main characters of Advent Children! Aren't they? Zack and Aerith are main characters in Crisis Core. As part of the FF7 Compilation they are all main characters in a sense/in their own rights. Also Tifa has some feminine clothes/they could have given her a make over or something With Tifa's looks it wouldn't be too hard to make a lovely Empress out of her (I'm sure people are probably already doing those kind of arts on tumblr, etcs, already, I mean I saw a Emperor Zack/Empress Aerith one )

Also I know some people consider Tifa to be -teh- main character/female lead in FF7 or at least equal to Aerith with both of them being prominent and important heroines I would say too Tifa is one of the heroines, she has a big role to play.

Indeed in terms of marketing/media/cameos, etc she also plays a big role. Cloud, Aerith, Sephiroth are used a lot yes but so are Tifa and Zack. Indeed sometimes it seems like Square Enix thinks these five are FF7 and the other characters don't exist/register much

Yeah ... and be honest if they had gone Cloud/Tifa and Aerith/Zack for the holidays, etc I'm sure there would have been people going like Cloti and Zerith I think there would have been people going on about how Cloud/Tifa were the royal pair/couple, and about how cute it was Aerith/Zack were together 'n stuff

Let's try and look at it also from the PoV of people who see the figures and don't know Cloud and Aerith are main characters in FF7 but they know about royal pairings/couples of Emperor/Empress, I think they might think oh how cute, the dolls match, this man and this woman dolls, it's like they are a couple like an Emperor and Empress, an Emperor with his Empress or vice verca, and together

**
Also new info -

http://i46.tinypic.com/2wml649.jpg

地下2階〜6階はひとつ下るごとに「クラウ ド」獲得！
地下7階到達で限定背寮 「教会』を獲得できる そ！
他にももらえる報酬はいろいろあるそ！

From/for Final Fantasy Abridged.

I don't know/am not sure if I have this exactly right but in another topic I was talking about it was saying in one of the scans about the Emperor/Empress Dolls you could scan a smartphone code and get a present to do with/related to them (the characters/Aerith/etc) I think this is that present

 

[I Am Not Me]

It is Aerith's forgiveness, not Zack's forgiveness, that Cloud seeks most of all. And the reason for this is because Cloud and Aerith shared a romantic connection while Cloud and Zack did not.

I do not appreciate the downplaying of Clack here.

Especially when your logic is off.

Cloud doesn't need Zack's forgiveness because he hasn't failed Zack in any way. Maybe if you paid more attention to the story, to the other characters, and how their relationships work, not just Cloud and Aerith's and whatever quotes you have for them, this would be obvious to you.

Just because Cloud doesn't need Zack's forgiveness, it automatically means Zack is less important. It has been said time and time again that Zack and Aerith were two of the important people he lost. I can't be bothered to look for the quotes right now because I don't horde that stuff to repeatedly throw in someone's face for a debate just to make my ship look better than yours, but I'm sure someone can pull it out if they can.

He needed Aerith's forgiveness because he never got closure from her. She died all of a sudden, after he promised to be her bodyguard. He also beat her up and tried to kill her, which is something he also never got a chance to apologize for. He didn't need closure from Zack because he already got that, in a way. Zack's parting words were for Cloud to be his legacy. Cloud would be all sorts of stupid if he thought maybe Zack couldn't forgive him after all that. Cloud didn't promise to protect Zack, he didn't need to be his bodyguard, and he certainly didn't beat up Zack and try to kill him moments before his death. The only thing he was guilty of about Zack was that Zack died protecting him. Apologizing for that is stupid, though, and they both know this.

Aerith already thought Cloud was being dumb for asking for forgiveness in ACC:

Cloud: "I want to be forgiven."
Aerith: "By whom? "

If you actually even understood Cloud's character, you would know that he doesn't prioritize anyone just because he wants to make sweet hot love to them. He said it himself, "There is nothing I don't cherish."

Zack, Aerith, Tifa, the kids, all of his friends are in this "cherished" list. Not numbered from most cherished to least cherished. He cherishes them all.

But you obviously won't acknowledge this like all the other stuff you refuse to acknowledge.

I will not stand by and see Clack get stepped on just to make your ship look better. Not in this thread, sister.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Regardless of which translation is correct, I still find it it very telling that when Nomura was asked point blank about Cloud and Tifa's relationship, he said that he either doesn't have a clue or that he simply doesn't care.

Well, to be accurate, he was asked about Sephiroth and brought up Cloud and Tifa on his own. Anyway, why is it telling that he doesn't care about romantic subplots?

If AC is the culmination of the stuff that happened during the two years prior, where is it firmly established during those two years that Cloud and Tifa are in a *romantic* relationship?

Case of Tifa. A number of romantic moments early on between the two.

And Nojima talks about it in a romantic context. There has to be something there in the first place to either be "not going well" or for the kids to "help them work out." You even agree that he is talking about romance here because of the comparison to how things might have gone with Aerith.

He isn't talking about one in a romantic context and the other in a platonic.

Well, what happened during those two years? Where is it established during those two years that a romantic relationship developed between Cloud and Tifa? According to Nojima, there's a premise that things don't go well between them.

"Won't" or "aren't" going well. Temporal tenses are very important.

And, again, there has to be something there in the first place to not go well.

Maybe the "truth" that Nomura speaks of is that Cloud and Tifa will never work out? We see lots of dysfunctional behavior during both the two years prior to AC and the time in which AC takes place. Therefore, the truth of their relationship could be many things.

Whatever that truth happens to be is irrelevant to me and this discussion itself, really. What's significant about the quote is that it shows Nomura knows what their relationship is, and that, therefore, the notion that there could be no relationship (because he has no clue) is inaccurate.

…maybe the canon answer is that we are all free to interpret the LTD for ourselves?

I'm sure Nomura would like it to have been that way.

Furthermore, none of the creators have ever said point blank that Cloud loves either Aerith or Tifa in a romantic sense.

Kitase's "wavers" quote (both); Nojima's interview about Case of Tifa (both); Nomura's Reunion Files koibito quote (Tifa). All three of the main guys have.

(Nomura's quote about how fans are free to interpret things differently backs up this line of thinking. In fact, it seems as if Nomura wants fans to have different opinions, which points to the fact that SE is often times purposely ambiguous, especially with regards to the LTD)

If it were up to Nomura, his nationality would be open to interpretation. I could see him responding to a question like "What is today's date?" with "Well, what day do you think it is?"

I answered the "Marlene's sins" question. Just because you don't accept my answer doesn't mean my answer is incorrect. It just means we have a difference of opinion.

I was referencing it because of how long it took to get that answer.

Anyway -- I'll only view both koibito quotes as reciprocal if you also view both as reciprocal.

... But I do view both as reciprocal.

If we both do this, then we both agree that both couples are canon.

In a very legitimate way, they both are. Cloud had feelings for them both. Both had feelings for him. One of them died before anything could be established with her, though, so he's living out his life with the other.

There are a number of factors complicating how Cloud may feel at any given time (his messed up memories in the original game, his guilt in the two years after, etc.), but he has had romantic feelings for both, and while both were alive with romantic feelings for him. That is sufficient in my mind for "koibito" to apply to both quotes in the reciprocal fashion.

The bottom line is that SE calls this scene a date. Therefore, at the very least, SE views this as an intimate moment shared between two love interests -- which is typically what a date implies.

That is a fair enough point, and I thank you for it.

In fact, from the moment Cloud met Aerith to when they rescue Tifa, it was a clear progression of events meant to set Cloud and Aerith up as mutual love interests. What other character did Cloud have so much flirty one-on-one time with?

Also true. He doesn't have comparable one-on-one time with even Tifa until late in the game and on into On the Way to a Smile.

As with my reasoning towards Cait Sith's wedding prediction, and my reasoning towards Cloud's Mom's flashback occurring while in Aerith's house, I'm looking at this from how SE is trying to convey ideas to the gamer.

By Aerith talking about her past boyfriend who was also in SOLIDER, it brings up the notion of romantic relationships. It implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack.

To me, Aerith mentioning Zack puts the idea of romantic relationships at the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting.

Good points as well.

And you are not the final word on what Nomura said. Your translation is not more valid than mine just because you say so.

Not because I say so, no. Because one translation is consistent with everything else he has said, while the other creates inconsistencies.

In post #4733 you said this about Nomura:

...

Seems like an attempted smear towards his credibility.

That was a while back, not in this conversation. I think that was even before we all realized that the phrase he used means "I don't care."

In fairness, though, he is still notoriously full of crap. He has said a lot of things about upcoming projects that turned out to be false, and that has nothing to do with the LTD.

Funny -- you use Nomura's "truth" quote to prove Cloti (even though we have no idea what this "truth" is).

I have never done this. I have only ever brought that quote up to show that the man knows the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Yet when Nomura talks about everything being up to interpretation, or anything else you don't like, you call him a "dickwad" who isn't necessarily the "final word" on this stuff.

This seems like a classic case of a double standard. You use his quotes when they support your position, but when they poke holes in your position you attack his credibility and make sure to point out that he isn't the "final word" on this stuff. Clever, but very hypocritical debate tactic.

He is a noncommital dickwad who thinks the word "interpretation" sounds sexy, though. It isn't character assassination if it's true.

I find those kind of artists extremely annoying. "Just answer the question and move on." Even when they want the players/viewers/readers to interpret their own conclusions, the fact remains that the work was created with particular truths in mind for the story. That's what people want the answers to when they ask these kind of questions.

Technically, even Sephiroth's love life has been considered since a discarded idea for the OG was that he and Aerith dated.

I'm glad you agree that the Cosmo Canyon conversation can be viewed romantically given the context of Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

More than "can be," I think it's obviously intended that way. That sort of dialogue is only ever used in that one way.

Why was Cloud's guilt over Aerith's death stronger than his guilt over Zack's death?
Why did Cloud want Aerith's (not Zack's) forgiveness above all else?
Why was the "wish in his heart" for Aerith's forgiveness and not Zack's?

Honestly, I think it's because she is the one he failed to protect. He blames himself for Zack too, but he hadn't promised to protect Zack only to stand by while he died.

The ACC Post Card Book shows that Cloud thinks of them slightly differently. One "cornered into his death because of me," the other "dead because I failed to protect her."

Cloud loved them both dearly. Given how much he beats himself up over Zack's death anyway, had the circumstances been the same, I think it would eat at him the same way.

I really don't see a romantic undertone to how he responds to the guilt of either death. I just see Cloud being Cloud, placing the weight of the world on his shoulders and expecting too much from himself.

 

[Octo]

My head hurts....

Like, you know when whats his face (No____ <fill in blank for I have forgotten) says things arent going well with Cloud and Tifa yeah? and then says 'maybe things would go better with Aerith' or words to that effect - im lazy and cant be bothered scrolling up. Anyway surely that statment implies that Cloud is not with Aerith currently (and also implies he is already he is with Tifa) Right?

I'm just confused as to what is being argued here, is it that Cloud IS with Tifa (romantically) currently but wants to be with Aerith. OR is Cloud just hanging out with Tifa (as friends and not romantically) and wanting to be with Aerith?

Now I think its highly unlikely that he was saying that Cloud and Tifas friendship is not going well but maybe it would be better with Aerith romantically, because that is a non sequitur.

It's just that the CxA arguements seem to be inconsistent as to whether they believe Cloud and Tifa are together but not working out or not together at all.

Gah I'm going to regret posting this

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I don't think it's fair to automatically think that Cleriths who claim their pairing is canon have faulty logic/ hypocrites or whatever. That thinking just creates hostility even before they engage in debate.

Intellectually dishonest debaters however.. they're just bound to piss people off for obvious reasons.

I say "clerith" because saying "people who think clerithis canon" or "people who think cloti isn't canon" is too damn long. Sorry if my generalizations offend anyone.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I'm going to point out that the word date is not always inherently romantic. The definition of date is "a social or romantic appointment or engagement." Note how it says social or romantic. When one says date nowadays, they usually mean the romantic kind rather than the merely social kind, but that's not always the case. For example, when I was younger, whenever I went over to a friend's house or vice versa, my mom would call it a "play date". Now since nothing romantic happened between me and my friend during any of these dates, and given that we were both heterosexual males and therefore had no romantic feelings for each other, it's clear she meant it in the social sense rather than the romantic one. So while whenever one says date nowadays 99% of the time they mean the romantic kind, people still do use the word date to refer to the merely social kind.

tl;dr date can mean both a social appointment or a romantic appointment

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Whenever the English word "date" is rendered in Japanese katakana, it means the romantic kind.

 

[Octo]

I dunno, I think SE calling the stopoff in the playground a date is just an error. I mean, they were there for all of 5 minutes. Aerith just asks to take a break - now maybe Aerith had an ulterior motive here, wanting to get to know Cloud better or something. But even so neither character considers it as a date.

A)Aerith says 'the deal was for one date right? in Shinra HQ, and neither character says anything about having had a date previously.

B) Aerith asks Cloud if he's ever been on a date before in the Gold Saucer, why would she ask him that if she considered the playground chat as a date?

So yeah, in that case SE have just dropped a bollock calling the playground chat a date.

Having said all that it doesn't make much difference, I'm pretty sure Aerith wanted to get to know Cloud better and so asked to take a break. But that only proves her interest in Cloud which we knew already

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Yeah, I honestly wouldn't consider it a date. I don't consider Word of God official if it contradicts with what happens in work it's referring to. For example, the "Sephy is the most powerful person in the FFVII universe" quote is contradicted by the fact that Cloud has fought him one-on-one several times and won each time. And then there's the Nozue quote that says Tifa's hair is black, which is contradicted by the various works that show her hair is dark brown.

Spoiler: *

(Though I wouldn't trust Nozue's word on what color Tifa's hair is, since he didn't even design her. If Nomura said Tifa's hair was black I might take it moar seriously.

But then again, it'd be Nomura, so I might not) And then there's Nomura's infamous "there is no connection between Namine and Kairi" quote, which is blatantly contradicted in KHII.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Eh, I can sort of see the date thing the way BlankBeat argued it. Certainly neither character considered it a date, but an outsider might comment, "Well, you two got to know each other in a park. That's sort of a date."

... the "Sephy is the most powerful person in the FFVII universe" quote is contradicted by the fact that Cloud has fought him one-on-one several times and won each time

Sephy was certainly more powerful than Cloud on each occasion. The overall situation and Sephiroth's own arrogance are what cost him the victory each time.