The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Dashell · Apr 7, 2013

He meant together as in loca-

I Am Not Me said:
inb4 "together" means location.

damn, too late

Danseru-kun · Apr 7, 2013

^

Can you give the rebuttal to that? I don't know much about the context and the Japanese of that quote but I do hear they're using the "together as a location meaning."

Which I fail to see to be significantly different than "belong together."

BlankBeat · Apr 7, 2013

I'm not finished with my responses to everyone, but this is something I've been thinking about.

In the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, it does not include "favor" arrows in the relationship charts. Instead, it gives us two relationship charts: one chart for FFVII and one chart for AC.

The FFVII relationship chart says that: Cloud is Aerith's bodyguard, Cloud & Tifa are childhood friends.

However, the AC chart shows a change. The AC chart doesn't show a change between Cloud & Tifa, it shows a change between Cloud & Aerith. Instead of using the "bodyguard" description for Cloud & Aerith, the AC chart tells us that Cloud has a sense of guilt towards Aerith. The "childhood friends" description for Cloud & Tifa remains the same in the AC chart.

I have a few points:

1. The ENTIRE POINT of providing two relationship charts was to show how the relationships CHANGED and EVOLVED from the time of FFVII to the time of AC.

2. Notice how they said Cloud was Aerith's bodyguard in the FFVII chart, and then for the AC chart it says Cloud felt guilty? Well, that's because he failed to protect her -- meaning he failed as her bodyguard. The difference between Cloud & Aerith's two charts was the perfect way for SE to show us how their relationship changed between FFVII and AC. Why did they not do the same for Cloud and Tifa? Answer: because their relationship did not change, at least not from a *canon* basis.

3. According to Cloti's, Cloud and Tifa's relationship evolved from childhood friends to that of lovers. The two charts do not highlight this evolution because it's not accepted on a "canon" basis by SE. The very purpose of including two charts was to show how relationships evolved from FFVII to AC. Yet, for Cloud and Tifa, we see the exact same description used for both FFVII and AC (meaning their relationship did NOT evolve or change from FFVII to AC)

4. You could **possibly** argue that Cloud and Tifa are both childhood friends IN ADDITION to lovers in both FFVII and AC. But that completely defeats the purpose of including two charts. Including two charts was the perfect opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII and AC. That is exactly what they did for Cloud and Aerith's relationship -- they told us how it changed from FFVII to AC. But what did SE do for Cloud and Tifa? They used the EXACT SAME relationship description for them in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. This tells us that NOTHING officially changed between them from the time of FFVII to the time of AC. If something had changed or evolved between Cloud and Tifa, the two charts would have highlighted this difference as it did for Cloud and Aerith.

And I'm just going to say this because I could see it being used as an attempted counterargument.

Some might be so ridiculous as to say Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends AND lovers in both FFVII and AC, which is why the description is the same for both charts. But let me remind you that the description does not say they are childhood friends AND lovers. It simply says they are childhood friends, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Also, for the majority of FFVII Cloud and Tifa were only friends. Then, only on an OPTIONAL basis do they express mutual feelings. Well, first of all, this is a variable scene. And second of all, it does not mean they officially become *lovers*. All it means is that mutual feelings were expressed on an optional basis.

The argument can only be made that they became lovers after FFVII ended. Therefore, the two charts should highlight this difference. But they don't.

The entire point of including two charts was to highlight the evolution of these relationships between the time of FFVII and the time of AC. But for Cloud and Tifa, no evolution took place. They remained childhood friends in AC despite living in Seventh Heaven together and despite the HAHW scene. This follows along with Nojima's premise and Nomura not knowing the status of the relationship.

The point is -- in order to make Cloti canon some sort of evolution has to take place between FFVII and AC. This evolution should have been highlighted by these two charts because that was the point of them. SE highlighted Cloud and Aerith's change because a drastic change took place: during FFVII Cloud failed at being Aerith's bodyguard because Sephiroth killed her, which caused him to feel guilt during AC. This was highlighted with the two charts. If a change between Cloud and Tifa's relationship had occurred, it would have been shown in these two charts just as it was shown for Cloud and Aerith.

Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends in FFVII, and remained childhood friends only in AC. Remember, the chart doesn't say, "childhood friends AND lovers" -- it simply says "childhood friends".

I will also note that in the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania, we only see favor arrows going from the girls to Cloud. Cloud has NO favor arrows going to either Aerith or Tifa. Therefore, since this was released after AC, and if Cloud and Tifa became the "canon" couple during AC, Cloud should have a favor arrow towards Tifa. But he doesn't. This reinforces the fact that if their relationship had changed between FFVII and AC, it should show a favor arrow coming from Cloud to Tifa. But since making them the canon couple was not SE's intent, no such arrow from Cloud to Tifa exists.

The lack of a favor arrow going from Cloud to Tifa in the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania also proves that Cloud and Tifa can't be childhood friends and lovers because if that were true, Cloud should have a favor arrow going to Tifa.

Therefore, if you try to argue that the reason SE doesn't show a change between Cloud and Tifa's FFVII chart and their AC chart is because they have always been childhood friends in addition to lovers, all I have to ask is: where is Cloud's favor arrow to Tifa in the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania? The FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania came out after the HAHW scene and AC. If the HAHW scene and AC make Cloti canon, Cloud should have a favor arrow towards Tifa...but the fact is, no such arrow from Cloud to Tifa exists.

The bottom line is: the point of providing a FFVII chart and an AC chart in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania was to highlight how relationships evolved from FFVII to AC. The two charts highlighted how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed. But as for Cloud and Tifa, their relationship remained the same: they are childhood friends and childhood friends only. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Also -- I'm afraid this was lost amongst my long reply to Ryu. It hasn't been acknowledged or replied to. Didn't know if anyone had any thoughts about it:

Cloud and Aerith's relationship begins by Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date.

Then Cloud and Aerith spend an enormous amount of one-on-one time together by sharing a date in the park and rescuing Tifa.

During the date in the park, Aerith brings up her ex-boyfriend Zack. To me, this implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack. In addition, by bringing up Zack, it also brings the idea of romantic relationships to the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting. All this relationship talk was an obvious clue from SE to start viewing them under a romantic lens.

Another somewhat smaller clue we get from SE is that they include the flashback of Cloud's Mom talking about having an "older" girlfriend while Cloud sleeps in Aerith's house. This was an intentional placement by SE.

Cloud doesn't spend this much *coherent* one-on-one time with any other character in FFVII. This one-on-one time between Cloud and Aerith was designed to set Cloud and Aerith up as romantic interests.

Then Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

Then Cloud rescues Aerith from the Shinra headquarters and says, "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"

Then Aerith says, "The deal was for one date, right?" Then Tifa gets jealous and says, "Oh...I get it!", and Aerith states that she didn't realize Tifa was in the same cell as Cloud. This conversation was included by SE to show the gamer that Tifa was getting jealous of the romantic world Cloud and Aerith were forming together after their extended period of one-on-one time.

And then Cloud and Aerith go on a promised date together that ends *magically*

It is important to connect the dots and view all of these things together, not individually. Their romantic relationship is a progression of romantic events that peaks with a date that ends *magically*

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Apr 7, 2013

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13621

Get a whiff of this.

Ryushikaze · Apr 7, 2013

Danseru-kun said:
^

Can you give the rebuttal to that? I don't know much about the context and the Japanese of that quote but I do hear they're using the "together as a location meaning."

Which I fail to see to be significantly different than "belong together."

Well, not to slam on JayM, but she didn't get the whole quote. There is a second sentence in there, and it goes to the tune of "I knew everyone would be back home where they belonged."

This concept of Cloud belonging with Tifa, having a future together, etc. is a common one.

So common, you might begin to think that the creators were trying to tell us something.

Octo · Apr 7, 2013

To address this:

Blankbeat said:
Cloud and Aerith's relationship begins by Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date.

Then Cloud and Aerith spend an enormous amount of one-on-one time together by sharing a date in the park and rescuing Tifa.

During the date in the park, Aerith brings up her ex-boyfriend Zack. To me, this implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack. In addition, by bringing up Zack, it also brings the idea of romantic relationships to the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting. All this relationship talk was an obvious clue from SE to start viewing them under a romantic lens.

Another somewhat smaller clue we get from SE is that they include the flashback of Cloud's Mom talking about having an "older" girlfriend while Cloud sleeps in Aerith's house. This was an intentional placement by SE.

Cloud doesn't spend this much *coherent* one-on-one time with any other character in FFVII. This one-on-one time between Cloud and Aerith was designed to set Cloud and Aerith up as romantic interests.

Then Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

Then Cloud rescues Aerith from the Shinra headquarters and says, "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"

Then Aerith says, "The deal was for one date, right?" Then Tifa gets jealous and says, "Oh...I get it!", and Aerith states that she didn't realize Tifa was in the same cell as Cloud. This conversation was included by SE to show the gamer that Tifa was getting jealous of the romantic world Cloud and Aerith were forming together after their extended period of one-on-one time.

I don't think anybody here is disputing any of that, yes Cloud and Aerith had romantic moments, yes the story was setting it up for a love triangle (Even Aeriths character description in the FFVII manual talks about the love triangle)

And then Cloud and Aerith go on a promised date together that ends *magically*

It is important to connect the dots and view all of these things together, not individually. Their romantic relationship is a progression of romantic events that peaks with a date that ends *magically*

Click to expand...

This is the part most people here would dispute. It's already been said that "magically" was a mistranslation, that it was refering to "Enchantment Night" at the Gold Saucer.

Aerith tries to get through to Cloud that he isn't his 'real' self and that she wants to meet the real Cloud, and Cloud remains oblivious.

As far as I am aware nobody here denys that there COULD have been a relationship between Cloud and Aerith had she lived, but at the time she died no such relationship existed.

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Apr 7, 2013

One thing that irritates me is when people say Cloud and Tifa haven't had any displays of affection. They've had sex for fucks sake, albeit offscreen. But that's moar than can be said for a lot of other FF couples. Here's a list of canon couples and the known displays of affection they've had, for comparison:
Cecil/Rosa: onscreen embrace, implied sex(they have a kid[Ceodore]
Yang/Sheila: implied sex(they have a kid[Ursula])
Dorgan/Stella: implied sex(they have a kid[Bartz])
Boko/Coco: implied sex(They have kids)
Cloud/Tifa: offscreen sex
Zack/Aerith: onscreen hug
Dyne/Elenor: implied sex(they have a kid[Marlene]
Red/Deneh: implied sex(Red has kids)
Hojo/Lucrecia: implied sex(they have a kid[Sephiroth])
Squall/Rinoa: offscreen kiss
Laguna/Raine: implied sex(they have a kid[Squall])
Zidane/Garnet: onscreen hug and onscreen ass grope
Steiner/Beatrix: onscreen almost kiss
Tidus/Yuna: onscreen kiss and onscreen hug
Seymour/Yuna(though not technically canon): onscreen kiss
Wakka/Lulu: implied sex (they have a kid)
Vaan/Penelo: onscreen kiss
Balthier/Fran: implied...something(Fran mentions Balthier did something to woo her)
Rasler/Ashe: onscreen kiss
That's all I can remember off the top of my head atm. If I missed any, let me know, so I can add them.

JayM · Apr 7, 2013

Tbh I just thought the "together" was the relevant portion...the "where they belonged" leaves more room for misinterpretation, IMO, especially since Cloud spends quite a lot of the final product away from Tifa/the kids. Largely, I think, due to Nomura's desire to add more action. Seriously, if you read these pages it's pretty clear Nomura just wanted a lot of flashy fight scenes; Nojima's the one who cares about relationships, and he's clearly fond of Cloud and Tifa. Together. Where they belong. (Do I have to turn in my neutral card if I'm just repeating things he's said?)

That said, to use the same standard that got thrown at me over at CxA, if it was supposed to be "in the same physical place" it would've been translated as that, so there. :monster:

Ryushikaze · Apr 7, 2013

JayM said:
Tbh I just thought the "together" was the relevant portion...the "where they belonged" leaves more room for misinterpretation, IMO, especially since Cloud spends quite a lot of the final product away from Tifa/the kids. Largely, I think, due to Nomura's desire to add more action. Seriously, if you read these pages it's pretty clear Nomura just wanted a lot of flashy fight scenes; Nojima's the one who cares about relationships, and he's clearly fond of Cloud and Tifa. Together. Where they belong. (Do I have to turn in my neutral card if I'm just repeating things he's said?)

That said, to use the same standard that got thrown at me over at CxA, if it was supposed to be "in the same physical place" it would've been translated as that, so there.

Well, IMO, the two sentences are simply two parts of a conjoined whole. It's not like Cloud belonging with Tifa and the two of them being together being 'right' isn't a repeated thought, it's just that that A: it's always best to fully quote things, especially short comments like that, and B: It's talking about the first thing Nojima knew about the plot. Cloud and Tifa being together and belonging there is pretty powerful in that context.

Oh, and yeah, Nojima ABSOLUTELY cares and knows about pretty much everyone's relationships. Especially Cloud and Tifa's.

BlankBeat · Apr 8, 2013

Hawkeye said:
To start off, the quote is actually from the October 24, 2003
issue of “Famitsu PS2.” Sources:

http://web.archive.org/web/201205150...agazine03.html
http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/product/magazine/03003520

Secondly, there’s actually no comparison here between Cloud’s
feelings for Aerith and those of the rest of AVALANCHE, nor
does the quote even mention Aerith’s comrades on the team.
A more accurate translation would be:

"I think that for all those players with whom Aerith traveled as a comrade,
each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also
carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now .…"

Third, the commonly spread version of the quote seen under the “Claim”
marker above also leaves out the last several lines of the quote, which
are vital to identifying the “undying feeling” in question. This is the
complete quote:

----
"I think that for all those players with whom Aerith traveled as a comrade,
each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also
carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now .... Its relation to the
church scene is .... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"

Japanese text:
エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお 死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします（笑）。

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps8e119cdc.png
----

Before proceeding further, I would like to turn to an explanation
from hitoshura that breaks down exactly why it’s clear that
Nomura’s comment does not mention the rest of AVALANCHE:

----
エアリスは = we're talking about Aerith

かつてともに旅をした仲間 = a comrade (nakama) who once
travelled together [with the rest of them]

で = comes from the verb “to be/is,” and is conjunctive. It means
“[Aerith] is [a comrade who [they] once travelled with], and ...” but
seems to have been taken as 'for those who travelled ....”

受け手側の皆さんにも = [and ...] for everyone in the audience too

それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います = he thinks they each
have their own affection and feelings

この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお死なぬ
想いはあると = there's not really anything there singling anything out
like “his own” like there was above. Just that he still has some “undying
feelings” as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps6bd2a231.png
----

This interview also took place well before even the original edition of
Advent Children was released. This was only a month after the project's
development had been announced at Tokyo Game Show 2003. Nomura
was teasing the eager fans.

He didn't identify exactly what Cloud's unique undying feeling for Aerith was,
but he hinted that it was related to "the church scene.”

So, what is this feeling that's ultimately given so much attention in the
film? Guilt, as we've discussed before. In both editions of the movie, the
wolf that symbolizes Cloud's guilt appears in Aerith’s church when Cloud
finds Tifa beaten up there, and the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania
also refers to Aerith as a symbol of his failures to protect those he cares
about (pg. 50; pg. 52 of the Revised Edition) — reproducing Nomura's
comment here point for point, and explicitly identifying "Cloud's unique
feeling" as guilt: "Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who
saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to
... protect those dear to him."

For that matter, at the time Nomura made his comment about "the church
scene," there had only been *one* church scene shown thus far -- the one
with Cloud walking down the main aisle of the church in the trailers from
TGS 2003's first, second and third days (three trailers were shown during
the event, one each day). In that scene, Cloud can be heard saying, "I think
I want to be forgiven. Yeah, I want to be forgiven."

The only church scene shown to the public at that point — indeed, the only
one that existed at the time — was this one featuring Cloud’s desire for
atonement.

For reference, let us turn to pg. 13 of the Reunion Files, where Takahiro
Sakurai, Cloud’s voice actor, says the following:

----
The first recording I did for this project was for a trailer shown at the Tokyo
Game Show 2003. It was only four lines, like “I want to be forgiven,” but it
took me over an hour and a half just to get through them (laughs)!

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps95c33c78.jpg

Japanese text:
最初のアフレコは東京ゲームショウ2003トレーラーでしたね。「うん、俺は許されたい」他の、たった4つのセリフだったのに、その収録だけに1時間半以もかかりました。 ええ（笑）。
----

The footage that existed at the time is corroborated by pg. 74 of the
Reunion Files:
----
The first time the title and visuals were revealed to the public was at a
presentation held during the 2003 Tokyo Game Show (TGS), from
September 26 through 28. In fact, the only visuals that existed at this
point were this three-minute movie and the secret proto-movie
described earlier. In other words, this sneak preview was actually the
pilot.

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psfd18b939.jpg

Japanese text:
初めて一般に向けてタイトルとその映像が公開されたのは2003年9月26日～28日の東京ゲームショウ（TGS）の時に行われた制作発表会だった。だが実はこの時点で存 在した映像は、前出の幻のプロトムービー以外、この3分の映像しかなかった。そう、この初公開映像は俗に言う「パイロットフィルム」そのものだったのである。
----

Recollections from Nomura on the same page echo these
observations:

----
We decided from the beginning that we wouldn’t use the TGS
movie in the final version. It was really just a pilot film. We
produced three different versions and played one on each day of
the TGS, but made them so that they hardly implied FFVII at all.

Source scan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps25b987a3.jpg

Japanese text:
TGSで公開する映像は本編では使わないって最初から決まっていたので、本当にパイロットフィルムという感じでしたね。TGSの3日間、毎日違うバージョンを流して3バー ジョン作りましたが、「VII」のこともほとんど語らない、という感じに仕上げました。
----

Here also are links to all three Tokyo Game Show trailers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD-aZa-jTNY (Day 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bADv4C2e0Vc (Day 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueAaATUs5dM (Day 3)

The counterargument has been made, however, that Cloud’s feeling
described in Nomura’s quote could not be guilt -- mind you, despite
no other feeling applying to the church scene from the Tokyo Game
Show trailers or even the same scene in the final film -- due to it being
described as “undying,” whereas Cloud’s guilt is resolved during Advent
Children.

This is, quite simply, a misunderstanding of the word “undying.”

"Undying" doesn't mean only that which is inextinguishable. Vampires
and Elves are frequently portrayed in fiction undying (i.e. as time
progresses, they are not in a constant state of eventual decay like
humans), but can be killed through the correct means. The race from
FFXII called the Undying, as well as the same game's final boss, are
likewise — undying, yet can also be killed.

That which is undying is only so until it has died. For examples within
Final Fantasy, one need look no further than the last boss of FFXII. The
form Vayne takes when he fuses with Venat's power is called "The
Undying" — and not just in the English translation.

The Japanese name for this boss is 不滅なるもの -- "that which/he
who is undying." The Occuria of the same game are also referred to in
both languages as "the undying" (不滅なる神; "kami who are
undying") but they very much can be killed, as Venat kindly
demonstrates.

For that matter, if one wants to make the case this feeling being
described isn't guilt, they're still going to have to attempt divorcing
that quote from its full context (i.e. the sentences that immediately
follow): "Its relation to the church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to
everyone's imagination. (laughs)"

In any case, if Nomura was talking about something that goes beyond
Advent Children, you have to wonder why he would use “in this story”
to describe the feeling and then relate that feeling to a specific scene in
the trailer where Cloud speaks of wanting forgiveness. The point
becomes all the more clear when you look at the finished work and find
in that scene a manifestation of Cloud's guilt, bearing in mind such things
as Aerith's 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile (pg. 50; pg. 52 of the
Revised Edition) saying that, at the time of Advent Children, Aerith was
the symbol of Cloud's regrets.

Added to that, the character association chart in the same book (pg. 121;
pg. 123 of the Revised Edition) has an arrow running from Cloud to
Aerith that says "sense of guilt" (罪の意&#35672. While guilt certainly isn't all
that he felt for her, and while he may indeed carry an especial fondness
for her all through his life, it only stands to reason that in this particular
quote about Advent Children, Nomura was referring to Cloud's guilt.
That's what the whole film centers around: his struggles with his guilt
and coming to terms with himself.

Here is what I have to say about your "undying" quote analysis.

"In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now .... Its relation to the church scene is .... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination." ~Nomura

I highlighted the part I want to discuss.

Nomura says he is going to leave the feeling Cloud has to our "imagination". But Cloud's guilt isn't something that can be left to our imagination/interpretation. What is there to leave to our imagination about Cloud's guilt? We've always known that it was guilt over letting Aerith die. So what would be the point in leaving it to our *imagination*...?

Again -- WHAT is there to, "leave to everyone's imagination" IF Nomura is talking about a scene about his guilt? The guilt Cloud feels isn't interpretative, it's always been a fact he feels guilty--we all know this, which means it isn't something that can be interpreted. So WHY would Nomura say he'll leave it to our imagination if he was referencing Cloud's "guilt"? That makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. There's nothing to "imagine" about it. Cloud feels guilty, end of story.

Nomura didn't say, "I'll let you find out what this undying feeling is when you watch the film". He said that he'll leave this "undying" feeling to our imaginations. Well, Cloud's guilt is not something we have to *imagine*. We know he feels guilty for Aerith's death because he is asking for *forgiveness* while he is walking through her Church. There's nothing to *imagine* about his guilt.

This is reinforced by the fact that Cloud's guilt is *NOT* "undying." Aerith heals him of it in AC. If his guilt is healed that means it is not undying. And if Nomura was talking about his guilt then that means Cloud's guilt is undying, which we all know for a fact isn't true since he is healed of it at the end of AC.

If Nomura says that the feeling is “undying," then how can the feeling be guilt when Cloud’s guilt is removed in AC?

And I know you'll say I don't understand what "undying" means in this context. But "undying" in terms of an emotion or feeling is ETERNAL and FOREVER. "Undying" means it will NEVER go away. Just like if someone lost a loved one in war and continued to forever have an "undying" love for them.

Trying to compare human emotions to that of fictional creatures is grasping at straws, IMO.

When has an undying *feeling* ever been used to refer to feelings that were NOT everlasting?

You don't go around telling someone you have a certain undying feeling for them when you don't, unless you're a liar. The same applies to Nomura. He could have simply said Cloud carries his own feeling for Aerith -- he didn't have to use the phrase "undying feeling" if that's not what he meant.

Again: "undying" creatures =/= "undying" feelings.

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. Sure, you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to an actual living creature does not mean eternal and forever. But when it is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever.

Furthermore, "undying" feelings are typically not used for a negative emotion.

Also -- it is only an *assumption* that Nomura is referring to the Church scene found in the trailer. So I honestly take my argument back from before *BECAUSE* there is no unequivocal proof that Nomura is referring to the trailer. That is simply speculation and assumption. To be honest, it doesn't really make sense that Nomura would be referring to a trailer in the first place, anyway.

In addition, *YOUR* translation says Nomura *laughs* at the end of his quote. Why would he laugh if he was talking about Cloud's guilt...? That doesn't seem like a topic you would typically *laugh* about.

It seems, to me, that Nomura laughed because he was referring to Cloud's feeling of *love* for Aerith. Nomura knows how crazy the LTD is, and doesn't want to fuel the fire, so he said, "I'll leave this [feeling] to everyone's imagination" and then laughs because of how crazy the LTD is.

Knowing how crazy the LTD is made him qualify his statement with, "I'll leave this [feeling] to everyone's imagination" and caused him to laugh, IMO.

The bottom line is: we know Cloud is seeking forgiveness from Aerith. We know he feels guilty, which is why he is seeking forgiveness. There's nothing to leave to our imagination. This is obvious.

And comparing "undying" creatures to "undying" feelings is grasping at straws and comparing apples to oranges, IMO. You don't have an "undying" feeling unless it is eternal and forever. The fact that an undying creature can die is completely different because it is a physical being. But the term when applied to a feeling or emotion is completely different than when applied to a physical being. Period.

So if Cloud's guilt can't be "left to our imagination" because we already know he feels guilty, and because "undying" means eternal and forever in the case of someone's *FEELINGS*, Nomura can't be talking about Cloud's guilt.

Plus, if Nomura laughed after talking about Cloud's guilt because he let Aerith die, that's pretty disgusting, IMO. It makes much more sense he is laughing about the LTD and how crazy it is, which is why he left Cloud's *undying* feeling to our *imagination*

PS: just for some clarification --

If you say the word translated as “feeling” means “guilt” in this quote, then why do you say that the word translated as “feeling” means “love” in the HW quotes that you use to “prove” the HAHW scene is canon? If you say that the word “feeling” can have more than one translation, then we can’t know for sure that the word “feeling” means “love” in your quotes about the HW scene, right? Please clarify.

--------------------

Someone named Octo said:
As far as I am aware nobody here denys that there COULD have been a relationship between Cloud and Aerith had she lived, but at the time she died no such relationship existed.

There are two questions people seem to be asking.

The first is, who does Cloud love?
The second is, who is/was Cloud in a *romantic* relationship with?

To answer the first question, who does Cloud love, I'd say an argument can be made that he loves both Aerith and Tifa. SE uses the word "koibito" for both pairings -- koibito means mutual romance.

Furthermore, given how much grief Cloud felt about Aerith's death, and how their relationship was progressing, it seems he did love her *romantically*. The same can be said for Tifa because of the HAHW scene.

I think an argument can be made that Cloud loved BOTH Aerith and Tifa. This is exactly why I believe the LTD is up to interpretation -- there is evidence that supports both pairings.

But the second question, who is/was Cloud in a *romantic* relationship with, becomes much, much more complicated.

To me, the *relationship charts* give us this answer. In all three Ultimania's (FFUO, FFVII10AU, FF20AU) it only describes Cloud and Tifa as *childhood friends*.

The FFUO came out AFTER the HAHW scene. Why does it describe Cloud and Tifa as only childhood friends if the HAHW scene makes them canon?

The FFVII10AU came out AFTER both the HAHW scene AND AC. Why does it describe Cloud and Tifa as only childhood friends in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart?

The FF20AU came out AFTER both the HAHW scene and AC. Why does it describe Cloud and Tifa as only childhood friends?

If SE believes that the HAHW scene and AC make Cloud and Tifa the *canon* couple, why are they described as childhood friends only in all three the Ultimania's?

Furthermore, only two Ultimania's use relationship arrows. The FFUO and the FF20AU. In both of these Ultimania's, there is NO favor arrows going from Cloud to Tifa. Again -- if the HAHW scene and AC made them the *canon* couple, Cloud should have a favor arrow going to Tifa. But since that is not SE's intent, not such arrow exists.

In the FFVII10AU, however, it does not use favor arrows. Instead, it includes two relationship charts. One for FFVII and one for AC. The point of including these two charts was to highlight the changes between relationships from FFVII and AC.

Including two charts was the perfect opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed between FFVII (friendship) and AC (romantic relationship). That is exactly what they did for Cloud and Aerith's relationship -- they told us how it changed from FFVII to AC by saying in FFVII Cloud was Aerith's bodyguard, but that in AC, because he failed to protect her and fulfill his duties as her bodyguard, he developed feelings of guilt towards her in AC.

But what did SE do for Cloud and Tifa? They used the EXACT SAME relationship description for them in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. This tells us that NOTHING officially changed between them from the time of FFVII to the time of AC. If something had changed or evolved between Cloud and Tifa, the two charts would have highlighted this change as it did for Cloud and Aerith.

If SE made Cloud and Tifa canon, they should have said Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends in FFVII, and then said they were *romantic partners* in AC. Or, just like they said Cloud felt *guilt* for Aerith in the AC chart, they should have said Cloud felt *love* for Tifa in the AC chart. But the fact is -- they used the same description for the FFVII chart as they did for the AC chart. Therefore, Cloud and Tifa remain childhood friends and childhood friend only, even in AC.

This is further reinforced by the fact that we need see no "favor" arrows going from Cloud to Tifa in the Ultimania's that were either released after the HAHW scene, or released after BOTH the HAHW scene AND AC.

And please, don't give me this BS about how other *canon* couples don't show mutual favor arrows. If AC made Cloud and Tifa a *romantic* couple, they should not be described the same way in the FFVII chart as they were described in the AC chart. And remember, all 4 relationship charts say "childhood friends," not "childhood friends AND lovers".

So there's two pieces of evidence that support each other. First, is that there is no change in the relationship description between Cloud and Tifa in the FFVII chart and the AC chart. Second, there are no favor arrows going from Cloud to Tifa in any of the charts that were released after the HAHW scene and AC. These two factors compliment and support the fact that SE has NOT made Cloud and Tifa the canon couple.

Yes, Cloud may have *loved* both women. But he is NOT in an established romantic relationship with either of them.

PS: Isn't it strange that the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania is the one that supposedly "canonized" Cloti but in that same book they don't show a "favor" arrow going from Cloud to Tifa?

--------------------

:: Prince Lex, I am still getting around to your post ::

eleamaya · Apr 8, 2013

no one answer new BB asks about childhood friend?
I think Danseru-kun had pretty explained it, dunno if BB ignored it or not then bring these points again.
I remember Danseru write that even Wakka and Lulu still describe as childhood friend too though they're married, CMIIW.
Sorry, guys. I'm too lazy to bring all the scanning page and translation.

Danseru-kun · Apr 8, 2013

^

The relationship chart issue has been addressed over and over already. Cid treats Shera "unkindly" in the charts despite them already being married.

*GASP* DOES THAT MEAN SHERA IS A VICTIM OF DOMESTIC ABUSE!?

Blankbeat's arguments are really, really circular

Blankbeat argues -> rebutted -> writes new arguments (that are actually rebutted years ago) -> rebutted -> comes back to old rebutted arguments -> people get annoyed -> everything becomes about how mean TLS members are mean biased Cloti translators

BlankBeat · Apr 8, 2013

eleamaya said:
no one answer new BB asks about childhood friend?
I think Danseru-kun had pretty explained it, dunno if BB ignored it or not then bring these points again.
I remember Danseru write that even Wakka and Lulu still describe as childhood friend too though they're married, CMIIW.
Sorry, guys. I'm too lazy to bring all the scanning page and translation.

You've addressed why there are no favor arrows, but you haven't addressed why SE used the same description for the FFVII chart and the AC chart when the ENTIRE POINT OF INCLUDING BOTH CHARTS WAS TO HIGHLIGHT HOW THE RELATIONSHIPS CHANGED BETWEEN THE TIME OF FFVII TO THE TIME OF AC.

If something had changed or evolved between Cloud and Tifa's relationship, the two charts would have highlighted this change as it did for Cloud and Aerith. However, the FFVII chart and the AC chart use the exact same description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship -- childhood friends.

If the purpose of including two charts was to highlight how these relationships changed between FFVII and AC (as it did for Cloud and Aerith) why are Cloud and Tifa described the same way in both charts, when the whole point of including two charts was to show how the relationships evolved? This means Cloud and Tifa's relationship did NOT evolve from FFVII to AC, because if it had, this evolution would be clear when you compared the two charts (as it was clear for Cloud and Aerith).

But the description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship is the same in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. Meaning their relationship DID NOT change or evolve between FFVII and AC. This means that the HAHW scene and AC do *NOT* mean they are in a relationship because there is no change in their relationship description between the FFVII chart and the AC chart (which was the entire point of including two charts, which is why Cloud and Aerith's description changed between the two charts).

If Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends in FFVII but lovers in AC, the FFVII chart should say "childhood friends" and the AC chart should say "romantic lovers". Instead, it says "childhood friends" for both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. This means their relationship did not evolve beyond childhood friends.

The reason Cloud and Tifa's relationship description didn't change between the two charts like Cloud and Aerith's did, is because SE has not said *on a canon basis* that Cloud and Tifa are in a *romantic relationship*. That is why they are described as childhood friends in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

The favor arrows simply reinforce the point I'm making.

EDIT:

Two questions--

Are Wakka and Lulu the RULE or the EXCEPTION?

Was the FFX chart talking about FFX *only*, or the entire FFX compilation? Wakka and Lulu get married two years after FFX ends.

OneWingedDemon · Apr 8, 2013

"In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now .... Its relation to the church scene is .... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination." ~Nomura

Just curious....date for this quote? And where was it?

EDIT: NEVER MIND, I'm blind.
So....Nomura says this before the damn movie comes out and you're asking why he wants to leave things to imagination?

iquit.gif

Octo · Apr 8, 2013

I just googled koibito and look what urban dictonary says:

1. koibito
91 up, 21 down
lovers, lifelong partners; see also: koi
My koibito and I went to the mall on a date

by Akira Kijo Jul 17, 2003

2. Koibito
80 up, 23 down
lover in Japanese only say this to a girlfriend/boyfriend if you truly mean that they are your love
I love you Koibito Forever Don't ever forget that

by Hikari Tenshi Feb 20, 2008

This must be true as those are real live Japanese people saying that. *nods sagely*

Anyway, koibito does not have to mean mutual. Aerith(Woman) loves/has feelings for Cloud, he is her koibito, beloved or whatever. Aerith is not insane, she does not believe them to be in a relationship.

Tifa is described as someones koibito and we use logic to figure out who she is a koibito to. We already know she loves/has feelings for Cloud.

In both instances kobito can be described as one sided, from Woman>Cloud from Someone>Tifa we're not saying its mutual for Tifa and not Aerith at all. We are using the fact that Cloud had feelings for Tifa to determine who that someone is (I know that you will argue that those feelings have not continued)

Blankbeat said:
Yes, Cloud may have *loved* both women. But he is NOT in an established romantic relationship with either of them.

Right, I am just highlighting this because I have a feeling that it might be very important in the future.

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 8, 2013

Summary of BlankBeat's current arguments:
-The 10th AU charts are meant to show how Cloud and Aerith's relationship evolved from "bodyguard" to "sense of guilt" from FFVII to AC(C), and how Cloud and Tifa's didn't evolve at all from "childhood friends"; so, no transition of any sort that would merit the use of new words has been made even though Cloud shared his most intimate facets with Tifa and they now live together

-If there was more to Cloud and Tifa's relationship now, they would be described with more than just "childhood friends"; for some reason, though, this is not true of Cloud and Aerith's relationship where only "sense of guilt" is used and literally no "favors" arrows get used for anyone; it's still fine to assume more than what is on the chart applies to them; not Cloud and Tifa, though

-Nomura saying he is going to leave things up to people's imaginations when talking about a scene from a movie two years before the movie is released means he is leaving it up to their imaginations indefinitely

-Nomura is thoroughly concerned with the LTD in his first interview after the existence of Advent Children was revealed to the public, despite saying he doesn't care who loves whom romantically

-Nomura is referring to some other church scene in that first interview, not the one from the trailers that unveiled Advent Children's existence/the only church scene that is confirmed to have existed at the time

Really, why are any of you still wasting your time debunking such egregious distortions of reality and common sense?

Octo · Apr 8, 2013

I got no place else to go!

Seriously I think we all need to let it go, but I guess it's not going to happen any time soon. I mean when both sides can't agree on whether we're arguing 'facts' or 'interpretations'. It's a doomed enterprise.

It's never going to be resolved. Now lets all forget our troubles with a big bowl of strawberry ice cream :monster:

Unlucky · Apr 8, 2013

I knew this would be going nowhere from the moment it was said that "Neither pairing is canon but here's why my interpretation is Clerith". And then came the debunking of Clito while simultaneously claiming that it's up to interpretation, plus over 9000 intellectually dishonest "debate" tactics.

Color me surprised :moar:

Octo · Apr 8, 2013

I still feel a bit silly for getting involved. For me it has never been about shipping. I honestly don't give a shit about who Cloud loves. For the record I think Tifa would be better off without him. For me its just been about misrepresentation of the narrative. I can't even think of something comparable in any other medium.

It just sticks in my craw, because although romance is only a small part of the plot it does impact on the overall story. :sadpanda:

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 8, 2013

Someone named Octo said:
It just sticks in my craw, because although romance is only a small part of the plot it does impact on the overall story.

It's like "The Lord of the Rings" in that respect. If Aragorn hadn't been in love with Arwen, things would have played out much differently -- yet LOTR isn't a love story, and you can easily read it without even realizing that he was in love with Arwen all along until you get to the Appendices at the back.

Kermitu Kleric Katie · Apr 8, 2013

Wait, LOTR had romance? I thought it just had elves, and wizards, and dwarves, and hobbits, and orcs and shit fighting over some magic ring. Of course, it's been years since I last saw the LOTR films, so my memory's moar than a little hazy.

Dashell · Apr 8, 2013

Hawkeye said:
Really, why are any of you still wasting your time debunking such egregious distortions of reality and common sense?

Isn't that what this topic is for? :monster:

The Twilight Mexican · Apr 8, 2013

Touché.

Ryushikaze · Apr 8, 2013

NORG said:
Wait, LOTR had romance? I thought it just had elves, and wizards, and dwarves, and hobbits, and orcs and shit fighting over some magic ring. Of course, it's been years since I last saw the LOTR films, so my memory's moar than a little hazy.

Of course it did. Didn't you see the way Sam looked at Frodo?

null · Apr 8, 2013

Hawkeye said:
Really, why are any of you still wasting your time debunking such egregious distortions of reality and common sense?

The real question is why is he wasting his time writing it. Clearly no one here is buying it.

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