The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
Also, please admit you don't have an answer for any of these questions:

Cid x Shera don't get married until *after* FFVII. Was their chart talking about FFVII only, or the FFVII compilation? Please defend your argument.

Lulu x Wakka don't get married until *after* FFX. Was their chart talking about FFX only, or the FFX compilation? Please defend your argument.

Are Cid x Shera and Lulu x Wakka the exception or the rule? Please defend your argument.

Also -- you provide no explanation for why SE described Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of including two charts? If their relationship had evolved from FFVII to AC, why are they described as "childhood friends" in both?
I already answered that several posts above. Childhood friends will remain childhood friends no matter what happens in the future, how is this hard to grasp? How many times must this be said by multiple people? How many times must we repeat ourselves?

How about you look at the complete charts provided by Tres a couple of posts and draw your own conclusions?

Also, Danseru and Tres have answered that question already, way before I even started posting. You're bombarding me for answers because...?

I don't even care about arguing about the relationship charts. Because the relationship charts are as inconsistent as Cloud's birthday. It's, as you say, "hardly relevant". I don't base my answers on relationship charts because I have a lot of other materials to base my arguments on. Like, you know, the actual compilation. :awesome:

What I am merely doing by arguing your points about the charts is pointing out the discrepancies in your arguments. I don't need these charts to tell me what I know, nor do I need them to prove what I already know.

You using them to prove something is the funny thing, really.

Therefore:
HAHW scene is canon + C/A date is canon + SE has used "koibito" for both couples = it is up to us to decide who Cloud loves.
You never cease to amuse me. xD

I also think Clerith date is canon but that really doesn't prove anything. It's one date. Where Cloud didn't even know that Aerith pretty much confessed to him. Koibito line is one-sided from Aerith's perspective, which is already an inconsistency on the argument because if koibito was meant to be two sided in this context, it means they had established a romantic relationship. Your argument is, confirming feelings means they must be in a relationship afterwards. Being in a relationship = lovers. Cloud and Aerith never had a relationship and they never confirmed mutual feelings though, so... what is this koibito quote about? You can't be lovers but not be in a relationship!

I mean, you argue that Cloti can't be in a relationship even after confessing, but you also argue that Clerith are lovers without confirming their feelings for each other even though they never had a relationship? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? :wacky:

Also, how many times must people tell you that "magically" actually means the attraction in the Gold Saucer instead? I've seen this translation corrected multiple times and you still carry on.

This is why I said I have no patience for you. I need to just stop seeing myself be quoted so I can go on with my life. :neom:


PS: Am I the only one bothered by BlankBeat repeatedly quoting Nomura as if he's the best source of information on FFVII canon even though he was pretty much just the character designer?

If Nomura doesn't know, wouldn't you think it's because he's not the writer?

The writer is Nojima. :monster:
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
....I love how this appeal to ignorance is literally the only leg this user can stand on now.

The relationship charts literally don't mean shit, because they've been proven time and again not to be precise determiners of every relationship and character interaction in their series. Nevermind how you're ignoring everything else. You're narrowly looking at this from an "absence of evidence" perspective, which is already a logical fallacy in and of itself. No one's arguing or debating the charts; this is about the actual interaction and relationship status of Cloud and Tifa versus Cloud and Aerith. Period.

If that's the only point there is now, this debate's over.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Much has been made of the FTOIL page and the HAHW scene. But the sad fact is, neither of these two things make Cloud and Tifa canon.

The HAHW scene proves that Cloud has mutual feelings for Tifa. But doesn't the canon Cloud and Aerith Golden Saucer date also prove Cloud has mutual feelings for Aerith? Afterall, Cloud goes on a date with Aerith *after* telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. In addition, a date is inherently romantic. So when you consider that Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, and the fact that he agreed to go on a *date* with Aerith, it is impossible to deny that he has mutual feelings for Aerith. And whether Aerith realizes his mutual feelings is irrelevant because the LTD has always revolved around, "who does *Cloud* love?"

Yes, SE specifically says that Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings under the Highwind. But you don't need to state the obvious with a date, especially after Cloud told Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

Additionally, SE has said that Cloud is Aerith's koibito. SE has also said that Tifa is "someone's" koibito -- which we all know is Cloud. Since "koibito" means *mutual* romance, this is yet another piece of evidence that supports both pairings.

To me, the HAHW scene and the Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date prove the exact same thing -- that Cloud has feelings for both Aerith and Tifa. This is further confirmed by SE saying Cloud *wavers* between two heroines.

But the second question often asked is a much harder question to answer: who is Cloud in a *relationship* with?

This is a much harder question to answer because mutual feelings do not always lead to a romantic relationship. Although that is typically what happens, I do not believe it happened with Cloud and Tifa.

Why do I not believe this? Because when SE had the opportunity to tell us how Cloud and Tifa's relationship changed from FFVII to AC through the use of relationship charts, they described their relationship as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

Including two charts was meant to tell us how relationships changed from FFVII to AC. Cloud and Tifa's relationship did not change beyond being described as "childhood friends" in both charts. Therefore, the mutual feelings expressed under the Highwind did not lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa based on the relationship charts.

One might say that being described as "childhood friends" does not mean they can't be *more* than "childhood friends". But what I think is problematic is that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania doesn't include an all encompassing chart. If Cloud and Tifa were described as "childhood friends" in an all encompassing chart, that would be one thing. But what I'm pointing out is that because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania included TWO charts specifically to show how relationships changed between FFVII and AC, the fact that there is a lack of EVOLUTION and CHANGE in the way SE describes Cloud and Tifa's relationship tells me that they did not change or evolve between the two time periods.

I'm not saying that being described as childhood friends means they can't be more than childhood friends. But when there's two charts specifically meant to highlight changes in relationships, and then these two charts do not indicate any change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship between FFVII and AC (and actually use the exact same relationship description that says they are "childhood friends" in both charts), I believe that is problematic and tells us that no evolution from friends to lovers took place between them on a *canon basis.

It is also worth nothing that in Seventh Heaven Cloud has his own bed in his own room, Tifa does not know if Cloud loves her, and Marlene will *always* be Barret's daughter. All of this is not indicative of a romantic relationship, which is reinforced by the relationship charts.

So although Cloud and Tifa share a mutual romantic confession similar to other canon couples, I do not believe it led to a romantic relationship.

In addition, other canon couple have indisputable evidence of being in a *romantic* relationship.

So although Cloud and Tifa have the first part required for a *canon* status because they express mutual feelings, they do not the second part. Cloud and Tifa do not kiss, get married, say "I love you", say "will you be my boyfriend/girlfriend?", no sleeping in the same room, or any other sort of undeniable romantic behavior.

Therefore, Cloud and Tifa confess mutual feelings. But nothing moves Cloud and Tifa beyond this confession. This is evidenced not only by the relationship chart that describes them as "childhood friends" for both FFVII and AC, but because Nomura does not know the status of their relationship after FFVII ends. This tells us that they did not evolve beyond "childhood friends" despite expressing mutual feelings under the Highwind.

And although the relationship charts aren't always consistent, that's not my point. I don't dispute that the charts may sometimes be inconsistent.

The point I'm making is that when given the opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship specifically changed between FFVII and AC, they used the exact same description -- "childhood friends". There's simply no explanation for this other than the fact that their relationship did not evolve from friends to lovers between FFVII and AC.

Pointing out inconsistencies is not going to get rid of the fact that when given the opportunity, SE described Cloud and Tifa's relationship as "childhood friends" for both FFVII and AC

The bottom line is, there is evidence that Cloud has feelings of *love* for both Aerith and Tifa:
-Cloud goes on a magical date with Aerith at Golden Saucer after telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
-Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings under the Highwind
-SE describes both of their relationships with the word "koibito"
-SE describes the LTD as a "hero wavering between two heroines"

But there is no evidence that Cloud formed a romantic relationship with either of them when we look at the official relationship charts. In fact, Cloud never has a favor arrow going to either Aerith or Tifa in any of the relationship charts. Therefore, the LTD will forever be up to interpretation.

EDIT: Since SE never tells us exactly how Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings, why is it assumed it was anything more than Cloud saying, "I like you and want to take you on a date like I went on with Aerith" and Tifa saying, "Ok! I like you too!"

To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Y'know, BB says we have evidence that other people and other pairings have evidence of being in relationships.

Purely pedantically speaking, do we?

Discounting, Cecil/ Rosa, Cid/ Sierra, and Wakka/Lulu, since two of those pairs are married and two have kids, I'm curious what evidence BB has for relationships of most other FF pairings.

For example, what in FF3 is evidence for Ingus and Sarah being more than a confession?
What is the evidence in FF6 that Locke and Celes ever actually act on their feelings?
In FF8, do Squall and Rinoa, Irvine and Selphie, or Zell and pigtailed girl (Whom I am tempted to name Ranko for the hell of it) ever actually go out?

In FF9, We see Zidane and Garnet and Aldebert and Beatrix have confessions, but no real sign of a continuing relationship, certainly no evidence of cohabitation.

In FF13- well, 13-2, Snow and Serah are technically engaged, but he ACTUALLY spent the two year gap between 13 and 13-2 somewhere else- looking for Serah's presumed dead sister.
Odd, isn't it? In 13-2, you actually get Snow doing the exact thing many a clerith has claimed Cloud was actually doing, but no one would insist that Snow is in love with Lightning- though much ado was made, I recall, of her being voiced by the same actress as Aerith but being similar in many ways to Cloud.

Though speaking of 13, Fang and Vanille. Do you think those two are an actualized pairing? If so, why?

Likewise in 12 for Fran and Balthier, or Vaan and Penelo?

What about Amarant and Lani in FF9?


I'll be upfront with my reasoning and my reasons here. You say there is evidence of relationships for all these other pairings that show up on the FTOIL page and in other FFs in general. I say bollocks. Cloud and Tifa, apart from the actually married pairings have the most evidence for their having a relationship, INCLUDING cohabitating and raising their own child. Not their biological child, sure, but theirs nontheless.

So, I say to you, if you insist these other pairings have more evidence of a relationship, provide it, and explain why it counts, but cohabitation, adoption, starting a family, belonging together, and a future together don't.

Also, it's not an insult in the slightest for Marlene to have multiple father figures. Note that second word. -figures-. Cloud is not replacing Barret as Marlene's dad in Marlene's mind BUT he is serving the same role as a father while she is part of Cloud's family, "the 7th heaven family", the family Barret is not a nuclear part of.
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
So please, keep pointing out all the inconsistencies between the charts. That is completely irrelevant to my point.

You(and only you) are saying that the relationship charts are crucial in determining the nature of the characters' relationships. So how are the inconsistencies not relevant here? If SE thought they were as important as you're trying to pretend they do, wouldn't they at least make them consistent?
 

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
And you never answered this question:

I've already responded to this argument so here is my response that I gave to Tres (which he hasn't responded to):


You also never answered these questions:

No one has yet to give me an honest answer to this question.

EDIT:Also -- you provide no explanation for why SE described Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

Also, please admit you don't have an answer for any of these questions:


.. zomg, the irony.
 

I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
To assume it was this confession of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, IMO.

To assume one date and guilt are indications of undying love and commitment is a huge assumption, imo. :monster:
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
You(and only you) are saying that the relationship charts are crucial in determining the nature of the characters' relationships. So how are the inconsistencies not relevant here? If SE thought they were as important as you're trying to pretend they do, wouldn't they at least make them consistent?
Well they did make Cloud and Tifa consistently labeled as "childhood friends" in every single chart they have ever had :excited:

My point is that even with the inconsistencies, when given the opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship specifically changed between FFVII and AC, they used the exact same description -- "childhood friends". This means their relationship did not move past "childhood friends" in AC.

And to ignore official *relationship* charts that are part of the Ultimania's is utterly ridiculous. The only people who would argue that they aren't relevant are those who are so firmly rooted in the belief that Cloti is canon that they will simply dismiss official evidence because it doesn't fit into their narrative that Cloti is canon.
 

I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
Then why don't you accept our arguments if it's up to interpretation anyway? :monster:

In fact, why are you debating? If you want us to agree it's all up to interpretation then you should accept whatever it is we throw at you. Because it's all just interpretation, right?

But you don't. :monster:

Please keep ignoring the other arguments. It's fun to see you ignore the ones that make most sense because it says a lot of things about your stance and your arguments.
 

I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
Oh, we're a lot. :monster: I'm mostly just here because you have stomped on Zack a lot through the course of this discussion and I want to stir things up a bit.

Also because I am extremely bored. I'll probably stop posting again tonight once other people have stopped hogging my Xbox. :awesome: Sorry, guys.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Then why don't you accept our arguments if it's up to interpretation anyway? :monster:

In fact, why are you debating? If you want us to agree it's all up to interpretation then you should accept whatever it is we throw at you. Because it's all just interpretation, right?

But you don't. :monster:
I'm here to say why I do not believe Cloti is canon and why I believe Clerith is a valid interpretation.

If you don't want to debate with me, don't. I thought you said you were done debating with me? I stopped quoting you at your request, yet here you are again harassing me.

Please keep ignoring the other arguments. It's fun to see you ignore the ones that make most sense because it says a lot of things about your stance and your arguments.
K
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
I just don't get how it's up to interpretation, but the charts confirm that Cloud and Tifa never moved beyond childhood friends.

Well, whatever.

1. How do you factor Zack's drastic change in ranking(second to dead last) in Cloud's list of cherished people from AC to ACC into your argument that Aerith being mentioned first/more means Cloud cares for her the most?

2. I'm interested in seeing you address the "magical night" responses made to you(sorry if I just missed it).
 

I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
I also believe Clerith is a valid interpretation. Because that's what it is, interpretation. But you are debating as if it's not only "interpretation". You are debating as if it's the only one that can be canon.

You are also not debating why you do not believe Cloti is canon. All you are doing is disproving Cloti in its entirety. Even as an interpretation. It's like Cloti is never allowed to be canon by the way you debate it. Yet Clerith is. So which is it? :monster:

Wait, don't answer that, I'll be tempted to respond again.

I'm not debating with you, by the way. I'm responding to you with my comments. :monster: Yes, there is a difference.

Unless we're debating about me debating because we will need to go deeper. :whistle:

In fact, I find it strange that you're responding to me, when others have posted arguments that are better formatted than mine. Why not respond to them? You've been debating with them longer than I've been around here. :awesome:

Edit: You never did tell me why you found it insulting that Marlene has two families. But eh.
 
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Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
^Exactly. You claim it's up to interpretation, but argue that Clerith is the intended pairing. Why try to debunk Cloti when it's open to interpretation and Cloti is the "interpretation" of others?

But before you debate that it's Clerith for you, you have to convince people that it's up to interpretation in the first place. And you still haven't convinced them yet. Not that that's gonna happen, though, because you've been given enough proof that there's an established canon ALREADY.

Otherwise, the way you're doing it, this will be a debate of opinions, and we all know how that goes.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
BB, the reason I haven't responded to a lot of your posts is because it would be fucking redundant, given everyone else has had a go at them.

Tres hasn't responded to them because you're a dishonest debater and he has better things to do with his time than waste it on you.

I do too, which is why I've not responded to you, but I'll at least be polite and say if you want me to address any specific points that other people haven't responded to, let me know and I'll try and respond as my schedule allows.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Tres hasn't responded to them because you're a dishonest debater and he has better things to do with his time than waste it on you.

Yep.

Not like I didn't tell him I was done with him either. For that matter, I was still nice enough to respond to a question about the LTD he asked me by PM. Don't know what more he wants from me.
 

Kermitu Kleric Katie

KULT OF KERMITU
Y'know, BB says we have evidence that other people and other pairings have evidence of being in relationships.

Purely pedantically speaking, do we?

Discounting, Cecil/ Rosa, Cid/ Sierra, and Wakka/Lulu, since two of those pairs are married and two have kids, I'm curious what evidence BB has for relationships of most other FF pairings.

For example, what in FF3 is evidence for Ingus and Sarah being more than a confession?
What is the evidence in FF6 that Locke and Celes ever actually act on their feelings?
In FF8, do Squall and Rinoa, Irvine and Selphie, or Zell and pigtailed girl (Whom I am tempted to name Ranko for the hell of it) ever actually go out?

In FF9, We see Zidane and Garnet and Aldebert and Beatrix have confessions, but no real sign of a continuing relationship, certainly no evidence of cohabitation.

In FF13- well, 13-2, Snow and Serah are technically engaged, but he ACTUALLY spent the two year gap between 13 and 13-2 somewhere else- looking for Serah's presumed dead sister.
Odd, isn't it? In 13-2, you actually get Snow doing the exact thing many a clerith has claimed Cloud was actually doing, but no one would insist that Snow is in love with Lightning- though much ado was made, I recall, of her being voiced by the same actress as Aerith but being similar in many ways to Cloud.

Though speaking of 13, Fang and Vanille. Do you think those two are an actualized pairing? If so, why?
Fang/Vanille have subtext and Word of God.
Likewise in 12 for Fran and Balthier, or Vaan and Penelo?
Fran mentions in Revenant Wings that Balthier did something to woo her, and in the same game, it's possible for Vaan and Penelo to kiss if you play it right.
What about Amarant and Lani in FF9?


I'll be upfront with my reasoning and my reasons here. You say there is evidence of relationships for all these other pairings that show up on the FTOIL page and in other FFs in general. I say bollocks. Cloud and Tifa, apart from the actually married pairings have the most evidence for their having a relationship, INCLUDING cohabitating and raising their own child. Not their biological child, sure, but theirs nontheless.

So, I say to you, if you insist these other pairings have more evidence of a relationship, provide it, and explain why it counts, but cohabitation, adoption, starting a family, belonging together, and a future together don't.

Also, it's not an insult in the slightest for Marlene to have multiple father figures. Note that second word. -figures-. Cloud is not replacing Barret as Marlene's dad in Marlene's mind BUT he is serving the same role as a father while she is part of Cloud's family, "the 7th heaven family", the family Barret is not a nuclear part of.

In any case, I have to agree that none of these pairings have anywhere near the evidence that we have for C/T(though Squall/Rinoa is the logo for VIII, if that counts for anything).

EDIT: Also, Tres, didn't you say back when the 25th Anniversary Ultimania was still new that Cloud and Tifa have mutual "favors" arrows in the relationship chart in that one? 'Cause that really kills BlankBeat's relationship charts argument.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
But guys!...


guys...




guys...


Is there a chair in Cloud's office? :monster:

(sorry I had to)

EDIT: Also, Tres, didn't you say back when the 25th Anniversary Ultimania was still new that Cloud and Tifa have mutual "favors" arrows in the relationship chart in that one? 'Cause that really kills BlankBeat's relationship charts argument.
Not in the chart but there's text saying they favor each other
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Turns out there's yet another quote like the ones used for Cloud and Tifa's moment of confession. This time it's Cecil and Rosa on pg. 110 of the U20 Scenario:

----
"Reunited safely, Rosa and Cecil embrace one another, confirming their feelings for each other."

Japanese text:
無事に再会を果たしたローザとセシルは、思わず抱き合ってお互いの想いを確かめる。

Source photo:
http://imgur.com/BcUtrGB.jpg
----

I still need to confirm whether such a thing is present for Ingus and Sarah or Dagger and Zidane (I don't think so, though), but at this point, that's every coupling on the "For the One I Love" page except those two.

I still have yet to see such a line for Cloud and Aerith, though.

But charts and shit, I guess.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
personally, although they might not have said it in black and white, it has been if you read between the lines a bit. the fact they keep using the same phrases and wording with cloud and tifa that they do with other couples. how many times has this been now? (plus all the examples of the same phrases used in reference to other things)

they never flat out said what their relationship is, but just because they haven't put one or two words over some lines on character charts, does that invalidate what other things say? is the simplified descriptions all there is to these relationships?

it's a matter connecting the dots. 'they say the same thing for [couple x], ergo it means something completely different when it's used for cloud and tifa'

no

wait

that's not right
 
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