The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Carlie]

I'm gonna be honest I came into this thread just because I saw that Road had posted in it and in the 4 years I've been on the forum I've never seen you posting here man. Btw can I have some tea?

Carry on.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Did Road just post in the LTD thread? Somebody get the theologians on the line -- I suspect the Seven Seals may start breaking any moment.


While we're still on the subject of what things like smiles and flowers are narrative shorthand for, I'm reminded that there were hand-reach scenes between Cloud and Zack in Crisis Core as well. Cloud reaches after Zack as he walks off to face down the Shin-Ra army, and, after Zack's death, Cloud has a memory of Zack extending his hand toward him.

Tidus and Jecht had another hand-reach scene before the ending of FFX as well. Tidus rushes after Jecht and extends his hand when Jecht prepares to transform into Braska's Final Aeon.

Tidus and Yuna also had one on the bumpy boat ride to Kilika. Tidus grabbed her hand when she started sliding away as Sin shifted the boat. However, a moment later he even extended his hand toward one of the Aurochs! Tidus is just getting it on with anything that moves, it seems!

In Dissidia, Zidane extends his hand to Kuja as he dies during Cycle 013. They even have physical contact.

And last but certainly not least, as they fall toward Gran Pulse, Vanille and Hope grab and hold one another's hands, and Snow reaches out to the both of them as well. Fang and Lightning even get in on the action together in this scene.

Never really knew what an intricate web of romance FF really weaved until now.

 

[Danseru-kun]

2) The 'smile' to Tifa Cloud does during the Bahamut battle.....um... I'm not really convinced (I mean Cloud isn't really very expressive in AC anyway...too much Botox methinks) I was wondering where that came from? I don't think its necessary to use it as evidence for C/T and to be honest I think it hurts the argument as it is that flimsy.

I mean why grasp at straws when you can grasp a 2x4?

I'm not really using that smile as a solid evidence, but I just wanted to point out the double standards in the debate where Cloud's hand reach to Tifa is ignored and people forget the fact that Cloud is smiling to both Zack and Aerith.

But Cloud did smile, and here's the frame by frame analysis of it: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/40143203976/clouds-smile-to-tifa-a-frame-by-frame-look-in-ac

It's very, very brief and missable. Others are the drawings in the children's room, which has Barret's.

Now, why did SE made sure Cloud and Tifa are side by side and Barret is separated?

No seriously, I posted this in tumblr and certain someone remarked how Cloud is so miserable with Tifa Marlene captured it in her drawing. And that certain someone is serious

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Honestly if i was cloud I'd be asking Tifa why none of them decided to go with Aerith.

They didn't know. And when they see Aeris missing they're all like, let's go find her before Sephiroth, at which point Cloud decides to inform them that Sephiroth already knows, lol.

I totally get Cloud's reaction in the game, don't get me wrong. The stakes are higher, Cloud has majorly fucked up on a planet-wide extinction scale by handing over the means to destroy the planet and he just got the only person who could help murdered.

I just hate it in Advent Children because there he's letting kids possibly die!!! He comes across as a self-centered asshole & playing right into Sephiroth's hand. Whcih is why she's all like, "a memory or us, motherfucker?"

 

[Lex]

Isn't the point that none of the other group knows where she went until Cloud wakes up and tells them? They can't exactly chase after her if they don't know where she's gone. I'm often curious about this point in the game, I'd like to know how she managed to get away. I assume she ran right after Cloud's attack in the Temple of the Ancients.

 

[Danseru-kun]

^

MY headcanon is that she ran away when everyone is asleep in Gongaga, they caught up to her very quickly anyway.

 

[Ryushikaze]

They didn't know. And when they see Aeris missing they're all like, let's go find her before Sephiroth, at which point Cloud decides to inform them that Sephiroth already knows, lol.

I totally get Cloud's reaction in the game, don't get me wrong. The stakes are higher, Cloud has majorly fucked up on a planet-wide extinction scale by handing over the means to destroy the planet and he just got the only person who could help murdered.

I just hate it in Advent Children because there he's letting kids possibly die!!! He comes across as a self-centered asshole & playing right into Sephiroth's hand. Whcih is why she's all like, "a memory or us, motherfucker?"

Well, his mindset in AC/C is "I'll just fuck this one up too. Not like I can save anyone I care about." It doesn't help that he's LITERALLY just had that notion reinforced for himself by coming too late to save Tifa, which caused a Geostigma flareup.

It's still a fucking dumb line of thought, but Cloud doesn't want to go at first because he thinks he'll just make things worse for the kids.

 

[BlankBeat]

In which case, you provided me with five ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT quotes to prove something I was not demanding you prove. I am demanding you prove CLOUD HAD ROMANTIC FEELINGS BEYOND A PASSING FANCY.
Was that allcaps enough for you? Do I need to bold it? Unnecessarily put it into red or other colors so you'll notice it?

This is what you originally said: "I think you need to damn well get back to the brass tacks and find concrete evidence that Cloud had more than a passing fancy for the Flower girl whose affections towards him he was oblivious of for the whole two weeks they knew each other."

Although I'm sure you will deny it, this was an attempt to diminish Cloud and Aerith's relationship. You are trying to make it seem as though their relationship wasn't very strong because it only lasted "two weeks." I was responding to your attempt at downplaying their relationship by providing you with these quotes that show Cloud and Aerith developed a strong and meaningful relationship:

"Cloud searched for the right words. 'I didn't fix the problem. I don't think I'll ever fix the problem. I can't make somebody unlose their life.'" ~CoT

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"The Forgotten City is tied to Aerith throughout the film. Here, Cloud is constantly reminded of her no matter how painful it is for him." ~Nojima: p.9, Reunion Files

After I responded to your attempt at downplaying Cloud and Aerith's relationship, I went on to provide you reasons for why I believe, "CLOUD HAD ROMANTIC FEELINGS BEYOND A PASSING FANCY."

I gave you this explanation:

-Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date
-Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him
-Cloud reaffirms his commitment to being Aerith's bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters
-Cloud and Aerith have an intimate conversation at Cosmo Canyon
-SE gives us a Clerith wedding prediction (SE words, not mine) from Cait Sith
-FFVII has a hero that wavers between two love interests
-TIfa is jealous of the world Cloud and Aerith began forming together
-Aerith is considered Tifa's "love rival"
-The hand reach scene
-Cloud and Aerith share numerous cameo appearances (the flower field ending in Dissidia, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the ending of Kingdom Hearts in unison with Nomura's quote about KH's ending)
-Cloud has an "undying" feeling for Aerith that becomes "engraved in his heart"
-It is the wish of Cloud's "heart" to have Aerith's forgiveness
[even though in Japan heart is not as synonymous with love as it is in the United States, it can still be synonymous with love in Japanese culture, especially when we apply it to the fact that SE refers to Cloud as Aerith's "koibito"]

But the three biggest pieces of evidence I have are SE refering to Cloud as Aerith's "koibito," the sharing of TWO canon dates, and...

"I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day." ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

The feelings Aerith's comrades have for her are platonic, while the feelings Cloud has for her are romantic (this is exactly why SE separated Cloud's feelings from her comrades feelings).

Cloud is Aerith's "koibito," therefore he has romantic feelings for her that are different than the platonic feelings her comrades have for her. Period.

Therefore, I responded to two things: 1. your attempt to downplay their relationship and 2. Cloud having romantic feelings beyond a passing fancy.

How do you not realize that I responded to both things? First, I responded to your attempt at downplaying Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Then, I responded to your question about Cloud developing more than just a "fancy" for Aerith. I answered both things.

No fucking duh. But you know what? Cloud feels pain, sadness, and guilt over Zack's death too. The difference is that Cloud's not complicit

It is Aerith's forgiveness, not Zack's, that Cloud seeks and needs most of all.

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

You know, this would serve a point if ANYONE was denying that Cloud gave a shit about her or that they didn't have a bond. Also, a couple of those aren't just about Aerith, either. There's this person named Zack. He's important. Look him up.

I have never denied Zack's importance to Cloud. But Nojima says that Cloud's guilt can only be lifted by Aerith. Nojima goes further and says, "no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him".

Blanky, you have no idea just how incredibly dishonest you are being. At least I kinda hope so. If you're being so brazenly intellectually dishonest on purpose, then there's probably no reaching you.

Thanks for the nickname

To sum up- you are demanding of the C/T case evidence you yourself do not apply to your own much more unusual and unlikely case. You do not demand evidence of Cloud and Aerith kissing, telling her he loves her, or anything like that, but you insist there is romantic feelings from him because 'Woman' thinks of Cloud as her beloved. That's not even mutual romantic feelings.

I'm not arguing that Cloud and Aerith are canon, therefore I'm not held to the same standard of proof that you are.

Here is Nomura's quote that proves the LTD is up to interpretation:
”Advent Children is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.” ~Tetsuya Nomura

I'm simply arguing that the LTD is up to interpretation, but that my personal interpretation is Clerith. These two beliefs are not mutually exclusive.

But since you are trying to proclaim that Cloud and Tifa are canon, you have to provide undeniable evidence that they moved from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. I'm not held to the same standard of proof that you are because I'm not claiming Cloud and Aerith are canon.

Simply expressing mutual feelings does not automatically mean a relationship begins, especially if circumstances such as those shown in CoT and AC prevent it (ie: constant communication problems and disagreements, Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her, Nojima speaking of a premise that things "aren't going well" between them, and Nomura not knowing the status of their relationship, etc.)

You're ALSO being dishonest because you are CONTINUING with this notion that Nomura does not know when he has said quite clearly several things which indicate he HAS to know. It is ENTIRELY possible for him to know nothing about their relationship at one point- because he doesn't care about that sort of thing, as he also said- and know about it later on once he's conferred with Nojima, who does care.

Typically, relationships begin with a friendship, move to a limbo stage where the two people are more than friends but less than lovers, and then a romantic relationship either begins or doesn't.

After FFVII, Cloud and Tifa's relationship was unknown because they were more than friends but less than lovers. No scene unequivocally moved them officially into the *romantic* relationship category. There's no kiss. There's no marriage. There's no "will you be my girlfriend?". There's no "I love you". There's N-O-T-H-I-N-G that unequivocally moves them from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene.

However, by the time of Advent Children, it became clear that a romantic relationship between them was not possible.

Nomura's quotes are talking about two different points in Cloud and Tifa's relationship (--relationship's go through stages, FYI--)

The reason I bring up Nomura not knowing the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship during the two years after FFVII, is because it nukes the HAHW scene. Since Nomura's quote is addressing the time period right after FFVII ends, this means the HAHW scene does not necessarily lead to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Wow. Again with the bullshit. And yes, I'm calling a spade a spade. You seem determined to miss the greater context of Cloud's PTSD and survivor's guilt. That's the reason why things are not going well between them. That's the reason why the kids might be or might not be enough to help them. It's Cloud's issue that he needs to deal with. Tifa worrying about whether Cloud loves her or not is again a direct result of his PTSD causing him to withdraw into himself. And yet, later on, she is no longer worried about that, because he returns to being happy with her and the kids, and later still because he manages to work through his issues and return to them, now happy and if not guilt free, no longer weighed down by it.

Cloud was officially diagnosed with PTSD...?
And even if their relationship broke down because of his PTSD, who's to say that can't rip apart a relationship...?

The Biggest BS is 'Tifa's maternal bond.' Not only doesn't TIFA drive Cloud away, she does not, strictly speaking, she have a maternal bond with him. The original Japanese does not use that phrase of its equivalent. It just says she takes care of him sometimes.

Why does Cloud not answer Tifa's phone calls? Why does Cloud avoid Tifa? Why do they have communication problems? To me, part of the reason is because Tifa treats Cloud like a child and not as an equal. Tifa has a "maternal bond" towards Cloud. This unequal and belittling dynamic can cause huge problems for a relationship.

No. Denzel was brought to Cloud and Tifa by Aerith. If he brought at all. Aerith was entirely powerless to affect the world before ACC.

Doesn't the quote say that Cloud believes Aerith brought Denzel to "him"? Why doesn't the quote say he believes Aerith brought Denzel to "them"?

Barret is APART, yes. Not A part. Apart. He has removed himself from the family by his own acts and thoughts. He is still Marlene's father, he is not part of Cloud's family.

Barret leaving for missions does not "remove" him from the family. That's like saying a parent who has to travel for work isn't apart of their family anymore.

Also -- it is irrelevant that Marlene is a little girl. Marlene invites Cloud into her family. Her family includes Barret. Period.

It's right about here that all hope of you not being intentionally intellectually dishonest- and the straightforward kind- fly out the window, since this has been covered time and time again. We know who all is Cloud's family. It is him, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. Not Barret.

Where is it stated that Marlene belongs to two families?
If Tifa and Barret are a part of the original AVALANCHE family, is there three families now?

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply believe they are all one family (especially since Marlene is Barret's daughter)?

No, Marlene is stated to have always slept with Tifa while they were building their house. Once the house was built, she got her own room.

But the point is that Cloud and Tifa did NOT sleep together while Marlene slept with Tifa. That implies that Cloud has always slept alone. Until we see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together, it is only logical to assume that Tifa sleeps in her room and Cloud sleeps in his room since there are beds in both.

Guest room.
Can I tell you the number of home offices my dad has had that doubled as guest/ my rooms when I was visiting? 4. That's the number of home offices he's had.

What guest have we seen sleeping in the bed found in Cloud's room? Until you can show me a sign that says "guest bed" or show me a guest that has slept in this bed, you have no reason to assume (based on nothing) that it is a "guest bed".

You also have no basis to assume that Cloud and Tifa sleep together when we haven't been shown that they do.

The reason I assume Cloud sleeps in the bed found in his room is because it's in his room.

You are very clearly not familiar with the idea of different perspectives. Barret can be part of Marlene's family without being part of the 7th Heaven family.

Where is it stated that Marlene belongs to two families?
Hasn't Barret always been apart of the family at 7th Heaven (ie: AVALANCHE)?

Except they ARE a real family, and I find it really fucking offensive that you think it takes marriage and kids to make a 'real' family.

Sure, there are tons of different types of families. But the way Cloti's present it is as though Cloud and Tifa got married and have biological children. Nothing could be further from the truth.

He said, choosing the most mealy mouthed and equivocal statement he could. Cloud wants forgiveness because he has GUILT over Aerith's death. That they were friends makes it worse, but he wants FORGIVENESS for GUILT.

My point is that Cloud shared an emotional connection with both Aerith and Zack. His guilt is not just over the fact he believes he let two random people die, his guilt is over the fact that two people he knew, on an intimate level, died.

Let's face it -- Cloud has killed a lot of people in his life. But he only feels extreme guilt and blame for allowing those who he cared about die. Why did he care about Aerith? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the romantic feelings he had for her. Why did he care about Zack? Well, in my opinion, it was because of the friendship and camaraderie they shared.

Cloud's guilt and blame are linked to the feelings he had for both Zack and Aerith. It is up to us to decide what type of feelings those are.

You keep repeating 'Cloud is Aerith's koibito' like it means anything. It doesn't It's known information. Aerith loves Cloud. That tells us nothing about what he feels for her.

The word koibito tells us that mutual romance exists.

I think it suggest more that he's just being a braggadacio, like his fake persona is, since he doesn't seem at all thrilled to be PUSHED OUT of his room to actually go on 'the date.'

Cloud and Aerith's date *ends magically*

If Cloud didn't want to go on the date, he wouldn't have gone. You are only assuming Cloud didn't want to go on the date.

Also -- the date happens after he tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him. It is important to remember the order of events and remember that nothing happens in a vacuum. Context is everything.

Why wouldn't Cloud want to go on a date with Aerith if he hopes she likes him? This seems like a natural progression of events.

Not... really. It shows he has an attraction to her, and would enjoy actually being liked by her, but it does not suggest he is ZOMFG IN LURVE with her.

I'm showing you the progression of their relationship.

Their relationship begins by Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date.

Then Cloud and Aerith spend an enormous amount of one-on-one time together by sharing a date in the park and rescuing Tifa.

During the date in the park, Aerith brings up her ex-boyfriend Zack. To me, this implies to the gamer that Cloud could be Aerith's new Zack. In addition, by bringing up Zack, it also brings the idea of romantic relationships to the forefront of our minds while we see Cloud and Aerith interacting. All this relationship talk was an obvious clue from SE to start viewing them under a romantic lens.

Another somewhat smaller clue we get from SE is that they include the flashback of Cloud's Mom talking about having an "older" girlfriend while Cloud sleeps in Aerith's house. This was an intentional placement by SE.

Cloud doesn't spend this much *coherent* one-on-one time with any other character in FFVII. This one-on-one time between Cloud and Aerith was designed to set Cloud and Aerith up as romantic interests.

Then Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him.

Then Cloud rescues Aerith from the Shinra headquarters and says, "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"

Then Aerith says, "The deal was for one date, right?" Then Tifa gets jealous and says, "Oh...I get it!", and Aerith states that she didn't realize Tifa was in the same cell as Cloud. This conversation was included by SE to show the gamer that Tifa was getting jealous of the romantic world Cloud and Aerith were forming together after their extended period of one-on-one time.

And then Cloud and Aerith go on a promised date together that ends *magically*

It is important to connect the dots and view all of these things together, not individually. Their romantic relationship is a progression of romantic events that peaks with a date that ends *magically*

So, if he said he was there for Tifa, you'd also view it as very romantic? Please answer this question very clearly and directly. If you attempt to ignore or equivocate, I will take it as a tacit omission of double standards.

My interpretation is a Clerith interpretation, so no.

Cait Sith's reliability is relevant, then, because if Cait Sith is unreliable, his prediction can't be trusted. It can be included to indicate comedy in that his prediction is effusive and just as pulled out of his ass as all his other predictions, and then be used later to evoke deep tragedy because Aerith marched to her death after a prediction of having a bright future.
Yes, from the comic relief character whose defining trait is his unreliable predictions.
Or because they wanted an extra bit of lighthearted totty including Cait Sith asking to be invited to the wedding on the way to his death and replacement to serve as further totty fodder to contast with the crushing feeling of her death. It doesn't require Cloud to be interested AT ALL for Aerith getting told 'You'll get everything you want, especially the man you're gunning after' to be tragic in retrospect.

SE says that Cait Sith's prediction becomes "more painful" when we know the fate of Aerith. This means it was included in the game to provide us with some tragic foreshadowing.

SE also says it was a "wedding" prediction, not a "comedy" prediction.

It is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction -- so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth.

The bottom line is:
SE included a "wedding" prediction between Cloud and Aerith so it would become "more painful" to us after Aerith dies. The reason a "wedding" prediction between Cloud and Aerith becomes "more painful" after her death is because they had a mutual romance that could have led to a marriage if it hadn't been for Sephiroth.

Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship being prevented from continuing is what makes her death all the more sad, which is why SE included this wedding prediction. By killing off a romantic interest and not one of Cloud's comrades, it makes everything that much more sad and heartbreaking. Luckily, we find out in the end of the game that their relationship can continue.

If Aerith is jealous that Tifa is able to live with Cloud and look after him... She's jealous of their relationship! Thanks for playing, try a copy of our home game!

Aerith is jealous that Tifa is alive. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Because Aerith is capable of casually talking with anyone, including the man she's interested in, something Tifa wants to do but is not inclined towards doing. She's envious of being able to so casually flirt with Cloud and the way she makes people, including Cloud, react. But, as is revealed in the lifestream and under the highwind, Cloud's been gunning for her since day one.

1. Childhood crush =/= adult feelings
(Tifa strong-armed Cloud into their childhood promise)

2. Lifestream event =/= adult feelings

3. HA Highwind scene = expressing mutual feelings

4. Highwind scene =/= romantic relationship
(Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship during the 2 years RIGHT AFTER the Highwind scene, no scene moves them from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene, Nojima's has a premise that thing's "aren't going well" between them, Nojima doesn't know if even Denzel and Marlene will be enough to help them sort through their problems, Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, Tifa has a "maternal bond" towards Cloud that drives him away and causes him to stop speaking to her)

That's as clear as mud. Jealousy and 'the world' don't enter into AC/C at all, And again, Tifa and Aerith could be love rivals for Cloud even if he was only interested in Mukki and Red XIII.

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.

AC: Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith's church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex." ~Tifa's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

This suggests Tifa carries her jealous feelings about Cloud and Aerith's romantic world into AC.

No it is not, because my POINT here is that being love rivals is IRRELEVANT to whether or not Cloud is interested in either of them. And no, I don't deny Cloud had a level of attraction for both women, but again, this cuts both ways. If YOU want to insist being love rivals means Cloud seriously loves Aerith, it means he seriously loves Tifa, too, and it is Tifa with whom he confirms mutual romantic feelings, begins his new life, forms a family, belongs, and has a future with. And it is Tifa that is someone's beloved, rather than simply seeing someone as her beloved.

I'm not saying Clerith is canon. You, however, are saying that Cloti is canon. That's the difference.

I'm fine with you having a Cloti interpretation, but to say Cloti is canon holds you to a higher standard of proof.

Aerith, the girl from the slums who favors healing magic and wants nothing more than to belong is not at all similar to Rinoa, the daddy's girl who left her comfortable life to form a resistance movement. Rinoa has more in common with Tifa than Aerith, and Squall and Rinoa's love story is rather disimilar to either C/T or C/A just as Cloud and Squall's personality similarities are rather shallow and their stories are very disimilar.

My point is that the ending shows a romantic connection between Squall and Rinoa through the use of imagery (ie: feathers). I see a similar romantic connection between Cloud and Aerith because Cloud returns to a flower field (the same flower field he is shown connecting with Aerith through during AC).

During the end of Dissidia, Cloud is also holding a materia that is the same as Aerith's materia. Both the materia and the flower field show us a clear connection between Cloud and Aerith.

What the ending of Dissidia shows is everyone returning HOME. Water for Spira, The sun and sky for Zidane's Gaia, Flower fields for Squall and Cloud, snow for Terra, the woods for Bartz, the moon for Cecil, birds for OK, Flowers for Firion, and Cornelia for Warrior of Light. You can't divorce Cloud from the rest of the group. It does not work like that. Any reference has to fit in with the greater whole and the greater theme. It makes no sense for Cloud to be reunited with Aerith, when, for example, nothing about Tidus' departure suggest meeting Yuna, who was actually IN 012. And Cecil has a goddamn wife! If SHE isn't worth mentioning, why in the name of flying fuck would a woman Cloud NEVER KNEW was interested be worth deviating from the standard?

Cloud's "home" and "Promised Land" is with Aerith. This is why he is shown returning home to the same flower field that they connect through during AC.

During Dissidia Cloud also says, “The one I really want to meet is…” And although Cloud doesn’t finish his sentence, given the ending of Dissidia and the ending of Final Fantasy VII, it is clear who Cloud has a desire to find.

Dissidia: “The one I really want to meet is…”
Final Fantasy VII: "The Promised Land... I think I can meet her... There..."

Cloud speaks of searching for Aerith at the end of FFVII, and is also stated to be searching for "someone" in Dissidia. Then, at the end of Dissidia, Cloud finally finds the person he has been searching for in a flower field while holding the same type of materia as Aerith's.

The place where Cloud belongs is with the person he is searching for (ie: with Aerith in the flower field).

The imagery is undeniable.

The IX reference is poking fun at FF7, so it's a shoutout, but it's making fun of the pairing more than anything.

In FFIX the Flower Girl calls Knight 7 "cute" and he calls the Flower Girl "beautiful". Their entire conversation is very flirtatious and romantic. Why would SE include this in FFIX if there was no evidence in FFVII that supported the idea that Cloud and Aerith were romantically involved?

SE could have easily included a completely different scene with completely different pieces of dialogue. Instead, SE chose to show a "Flower Girl" and "Knight 7" flirting. This is an obvious attempt to pay homage to the romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. Please stop denying common sense.

I'll let everyone else view this cameo appearance so they can judge for themselves:

Um, wow. Fuck no.
Stop talking about Final Fantasy Tactics. Cloud does NOT have a conversation with the flower girl, it's Ramza who has that. So is Ramza gonna hook up with Aerith?
Every single female unit can equip ribbons and other hairpins in FFT. Cloud is unique because he can equip female accessories as a male, yes, but then again, he could equip ribbons in FF7, just like the rest of the party.

Here you are making random excuses for the fact that SE decided to make Cloud the only male able to equip a ribbon, a ribbon eerily similar to Aerith's ribbon.

As for Cloud not having a conversation with the Flower Girl in FFT:

I don't! I know it means that she is someone's beloved- IE, that someone loves HER. Cloud is far and away the most parsimonious options- and really, the only sane one- as to who it is loves her. Her love for Cloud is previously established, as incidentally, his if for her. No, the important thing about Tifa's Koibito quote is that it has to do with her place in the world and her relations to other people. One of the things she IS is a man's beloved, and Cloud's the only man that fits. It's also an out of universe perspective.

The koibito quotes means both couples are canon, IMO. Thus, it is up to us to decide who we believe Cloud loves since SE supports both couples.

In which case, NOMURA KNOWS. And Cloud and Tifa are living together, starting a family, etc. etc. etc. And Tifa's Cloud's beloved as of AC/C so, again, victory for C/T.

I addressed this previously.

...And? This statement is entirely pointless. NO ONE here is claiming Cloud didn't give a shit about her.

I'm making the point that Cloud's guilt is fueled from the feelings he has for Aerith.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
ONCE AGAIN, that is a figure of speech. Aerith is also described as living on inside ALL her friends, AND she is described at the end of AC/C as returning to the cycle of souls around the planet, the lifestream proper, where she belongs. Along with Zack.

Yes, when people die they go back to the lifestream. Zack and Aerith are both in the lifestream. That doesn't mean they are together *romantically*

Also -- the way in which Aerith lives on inside of Cloud is different than the way she lives on inside of everyone else. It is different because Cloud is able to see Aerith, "several times throughout the film" (Nomura).

The only ones that are capable of interacting with Aerith are Cloud, the children, and Kadaj. Children interacting with Aerith was established in FFVII and I assume it is due to their innocence or even that they are newly born from the Lifestream (compared to adults) that they can see her. Kadaj is simple: he is composed entirely of negative Lifestream. Aerith purified him in AC/ACC. Other than that, why can't anyone else see Aerith? Nomura already explained that.

I find your Mako parasite theory amusing but stupid.

K

ICloud isn't alone any more because he has his friends and family and can let them in. He's going to be okay and so Zack and Aerith can leave him BECAUSE he's not alone.

Cloud's not alone anymore because he's found Aerith again. We know this because SE said that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. Cloud said at the end of FFVII that he could find Aerith in the Promised Land. Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is.

Cloud is driving home after a delivery at the end of AC/C. Watch reminiscence.

Nomura: "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."
Nomura, Reunion Files: “…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith’s church.”

In both the AC and ACC credits, Cloud is shown riding through flower fields. Given the two quotes I listed above that explicitly prove that these flower fields represent Aerith, SE chose to show Cloud riding through these flower fields to show his desire to continue connecting with Aerith after AC/C. This is similar to Yuna's desire in FFX-2. Cloud's feelings for Aerith are "undying", meaning he will never stop trying to connect with her.

Nomura specifically says that they filmed the ending credits in Hawaii and that the flowers shown in the credits are the same as the flowers in Aerith's Church. He also says that flowers in general represent Aerith. Cloud and Aerith are also seen connecting through flower fields. Cloud rides his motorcycle through these same flower fields during the credits. If you can't connect all of those dots, I'm truly sorry.

Oh please, save your trite meaningless statements for someone who hasn't heard this shit millions of times. Yes, FF7 is a fantasy world. No, that does NOT automatically mean anything fantastic is possible. FF7 is an extremely grounded fantasy world as far as human interactions and themes go. Fuck, one of the themes of FF7 was how much death sucks and that you don't get to come back from it.

This theme of love beyond death has been repeated in the Final Fantasy franchise with Tidus/Yuna, Shuyin/Lenne, Laguna/Raine, and Ashe/Rasler. Plus, in Final Fantasy VII, you have Vincent's bond with Lucrecia. Vincent can see her and speak with her in DoC, which is similar to the way Cloud can with Aerith in AC/ACC.

The credits of AC/C show Cloud searching for ways to continue connecting with Aerith, similar to what Yuna searches for in FFX-2.

--------------------

I'd also like to point this out: Cloud's "undying" feeling for Aerith can't be guilt because she removes his guilt during AC. Since Aerith removes his guilt, his guilt isn't "undying". Therefore, the "undying" feeling Cloud has for Aerith that is separate from her comrades is that of "love". He is her koibito and koibito means mutual romance.

Also, I do believe that the official artwork can be used to support Cloud and Aerith as a romantic couple. It doesn't make Cloud and Aerith canon, and it doesn't take away from a Cloti interpretation. All it does is help us understand how SE views Cloud and Aerith. To me, the artwork tells us that SE views Cloud and Aerith similarly to other canon Final Fantasy couples:

And now, Emperor Cloud and Empress Aerith bring to you the matching CxA desserts found at the Square Enix cafe, Artnia, in Japan (there are no other desserts that match):

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Well to be fair in respect to flowers they were/are something important to Aerith, meaning they were/meant something to her so in a way I can see Cloud wanting to pay homage to her through flowers as kind of romantic I don't know if there is any proofs but I like to think he was tending to her flowers in the church while they were there. I'm also reminded of the scene in the OG where Cloud apologises for falling on Aerith's flowers and remarks on the rarity of flowers in Midgar, I always thought that was nice Cloud showing concern/taking an interest over Aerith's flowers, well in general being pleasant to her over them If I remember right Cloud has a crap ton of photos of flowers two years/so later and I can see this as in remembrance/memory too or as well it could just be hey nice scenery but if Cloud thinks yellow flowers are nice scenery to look at/photo I could see why it could be because they remind him of Aerith and why that could be seen as romantic given their importance to Aerith. Why can't it be both?

It could also just be dude just like flowers, but as far as we know Cloud didn't have an interest in them/like them before meeting Aerith. Right?

Or also you can give a flower to Tifa in the OG too. That's kind of romantic too

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Well, why didn't you mention the matching desserts earlier??
You've changed things. Forever.

 

[Lex]

I'd also like to point this out: Cloud's "undying" feeling for Aerith can't be guilt because she removes his guilt during AC. Since Aerith removes his guilt, his guilt cannot be "undying". Therefore, this "undying" feeling Cloud has for Aerith that is separate from her comrades is that of "love". He is her koibito and koibito means mutual romance.

This is some really twisty waffling you've done here. Kudos for pulling off such rampant dishonesty.

You've intentionally confused who is feeling what in the second last sentence of this paragraph. It has also been explained to you multiple times that the "undying feeling" is not a feeling that never goes away, it's a feeling that's there until it's not anymore. "Indefinite" might be a better word. There's absolutely no evidence to support that the feeling referred to is in any way romantic, while there's a shit load indicating that it's guilt. So it really is guilt, I don't know why you're trying to pretend it's not.

I've been following this debate in all its renewed vigour and for the first time in years I'm beginning to understand why it gets so heated. BlankBeat, if you're going to debate in favour of Clerith you need to stop intentionally misinterpreting quotes and focus on what is actually there instead of what has already been debunked numerous times. I don't believe for a second that you're not intelligent enough to notice you're doing it, because your posts are quite well articulated. Please be more honest. It might be better to go through all of the official source material and start making your arguments from there.

As it stands your best argument is that there are similar looking ice cream things based on Cloud and Aerith. You need to ask yourself why Clotis don't have to look at symbolism and metaphor to ship their couple when the best a Clerith can do is "Cloud is standing in a field of flowers, therefore undying devotion".

 

[BlankBeat]

As it stands your best argument is that there are similar looking ice cream things based on Cloud and Aerith. You need to ask yourself why Clotis don't have to look at symbolism and metaphor to ship their couple when the best a Clerith can do is "Cloud is standing in a field of flowers, therefore undying devotion".

If that is all you can gather from my long post, I'm sorry. I included the ice cream to lighten this place up a bit, but I can see now I shouldn't have.

I have found three YouTube videos from the Tokyo Game Show that everyone says Nomura is referring to with his "undying" quote.

Here are three links to the trailers that were shown at the TGS in 2003:
Day 1
Day 1
Day 2

This is what the interior of the Church looks like from above in the trailer:

Tifa's unconscious body SHOULD be lying in the flowers if this is the scene where Cloud finds Tifa. But, Tifa's body isn't there. Cloud is the only person shown in the trailer.

Let me remind you that the film came out in 2005. The trailers were shown in 2003. Because Tifa's body is not seen from above, and because we never see Cloud finding her body in the trailer, odds are good that this scene had not been created yet.

Since Nomura is explicitly talking about the trailer, and since no one had seen the final movie yet, it is illogical to think he is talking about Cloud finding Tifa's body. Why would Nomura be referring to a moment that no one had seen yet and a moment that wasn't in the trailer?

In all honesty, when Nomura made his comments, the final scene probably had not been created yet. However, his comments are directed at the scene as it appears in the trailer. All we see in the trailer is Cloud walking in Aerith's Church. That's it.

At the time Nomura made his comments, he knew that people had only seen the trailer. Therefore, he is applying his comments to what everyone saw in the trailer. All we saw in the trailer was Cloud walking in Aerith's Church. We had no knowledge of what transpired in the final film. And in all probability, that is probably all Nomura knew of the scene when he made his comments (considering we don't see Tifa's body laying in the flower field from above and because the trailer came out in 2003 and the film came out in 2005)

Therefore, all we saw in the trailer was Cloud continuing to visit Aerith's Church after her death. This suggests to us that his undying feeling for her is "love," since his feelings for her are different than that of her comrades. In addition, Cloud's feelings of love are "undying" because he is shown visiting her Church after her death. This implies that even after Aerith's death, Cloud is still carrying an undying love for her because he is seen visiting her Church.

And since it is impossible for Cloud's guilt to be "undying" (because Aerith relieves him of his guilt during AC), it makes perfect sense that Nomura's quote was not in reference to Cloud finding Tifa's unconscious body, but was in specific reference to what we knew and saw at the time of the trailers initial release.

Synonyms for "undying":
ageless, continuing, dateless, enduring, eternal, everlasting, immortal, imperishable, lasting, ongoing, perennial, perpetual, timeless, abiding
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/undying

Cloud's guilt can't be "undying" because Aerith cures Cloud of his guilt in AC.

 

[Lex]

Whether or not anyone knew Tifa's body was going to be there at that point is irrelevant. The guilt he feels for Aerith's death is why he's in the church. Do you honestly think he's going to continue a relationship with Aerith beyond death? How does him being in the church accomplish this goal? He's there to remove himself. The church is representative of the guilt he feels for her death, he's removed himself from the warmth of his family and put himself there alone to bask in his own negativity. The church is a very obvious metaphor for his depression.

You're also disregarding the fact that Nomura knew more about the story than what we had seen in trailers anyway, but I don't need Tifa's body to be there for my point to make sense because the church is the place Cloud associates with Aerith and his guilt. And would they put Tifa's body lying in the church in the trailer anyway? No, because that's a hell of a spoiler.

And that's not all I got from your post. The first line of my response encompasses your entire post. You're being dishonest and intentionally refusing to acknowledge when your points have been disproven and/or don't make sense. The entire thing is laced with false claims and Clerith bias that doesn't objectively examine all of the evidence. You're cherry picking everything to twist it to look like it supports a pairing that just doesn't exist. It's very frustrating.

Just to remind you, I don't ship any pairing at all. I actually like Clerith as a fan pairing. I just do not see how anyone could objectively look at it and say they were a canon couple when there's solid evidence for Cloti. And I don't think it's open to interpretation either. I think there's evidence that Cloud and Aerith may have had romantic feelings for one another for a brief period while she was alive. Cloud and Tifa have had and do have a romantic relationship since they were children that fully developed at the end of Final Fantasy VII. If it was open to interpretation I wouldn't give a crap either, but it's not. And that's not opinion.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Cloud's guilt can't be "undying" because Aerith cures Cloud of his guilt in AC.

I like how you're purposefully forgetting that Zack also had a hand in this "curing" you speak of, if you can even call it that.

 

[BlankBeat]

I like how you're purposefully forgetting that Zack also had a hand in this "curing" you speak of, if you can even call it that.

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

::finishing up my response to Prince Lex::

 

[eleamaya]

^
What happened to Aerith of course can only be lifted by Aerith herself, everybody know that, silly.
But, Cloud guilt/sins are for two persons.
The translation when Cloud speak to Vincent is, "Are sins ever forgiven?"
And In ACC book, it's said both Zack and Aerith were people whom he can never forget, the "unforgivable sins” in his heart.
Cloud's guilt for Aerith is he failed to protect her. "But I let you die."
Cloud's guilt for Zack is he thought he failed to become the legacy that he totally forget of Zack's existence. "Easy to make a promise."

Look at this scene:

See the yellow and white petals flying away when Cloud stuck the buster sword kicked by Kadaj? It can be assumed that Cloud occasionally visited Zack's grave and carried flowers from Aerith's church. He kept thinking about them both when he was dying.

 

[BlankBeat]

Whether or not anyone knew Tifa's body was going to be there at that point is irrelevant. The guilt he feels for Aerith's death is why he's in the church.

Why does he feel guilt? Because he let someone who he has an "undying" feeling for get murdered.

The "undying" feeling Cloud has for Aerith underlies and fuels his guilt.

Do you honestly think he's going to continue a relationship with Aerith beyond death?

Cloud already continued a relationship with Aerith in Advent Children, and is continuing to search for ways to connect with her as evidenced by the end of AC/C when we see him riding through flower fields (ie: the same flower fields that they connect through during the course of the film and the same flowers that SE explicitly says represent Aerith)

I view Cloud similarly to how Yuna felt in FFX and FFX-2.

How does him being in the church accomplish this goal? He's there to remove himself.

In the trailer, we see that Cloud's love for Aerith is "undying" because he continues to visit her Church after her death. The Church is a place where he can connect with Aerith and continue his undying feeling for her.

The church is representative of the guilt he feels for her death, he's removed himself from the warmth of his family and put himself there alone to bask in his own negativity. The church is a very obvious metaphor for his depression.

SE calls the Church Cloud's "Promised Land." This means that the Church is his place of supreme happiness.

Cloud realizes in AC that he's not alone anymore because he's found Aerith again. We know this because SE said that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. Cloud said at the end of FFVII that he could find Aerith in the Promised Land. Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is, which is her Church (aka: the place SE calls his Promised Land).

You're also disregarding the fact that Nomura knew more about the story than what we had seen in trailers

But his comments were directed at what was shown in the trailer because he knows that is all we had knowledge of at the time.

Therefore, his comments are restricted to what is shown in the trailer, not what is shown in the final movie.

Why would he answer an interview question about the trailer and then reference a scene in the final film and a scene none of us had seen yet?

And would they put Tifa's body lying in the church in the trailer anyway? No, because that's a hell of a spoiler.

Pure assumption and speculation.

It makes much more sense to assume that the film wasn't finished and that this scene had not been thought of at the time the trailer was released since there was a 2 year gap between the trailer and the final film.

EDIT: If the scene had been created at the time of the trailer and they didn't want to "spoil" it (as you speculate) they would have simply not shown the Church from above. But since Tifa is not seen from above laying in the flowers, it suggests the scene has not been created or thought of at the time of Nomura's comments.

And that's not all I got from your post. The first line of my response encompasses your entire post. You're being dishonest and intentionally refusing to acknowledge when your points have been disproven and/or don't make sense. The entire thing is laced with false claims and Clerith bias that doesn't objectively examine all of the evidence. You're cherry picking everything to twist it to look like it supports a pairing that just doesn't exist. It's very frustrating.

Then don't debate with me?

You said I was being dishonest in reference to the "undying" quote. I was simply explaining to you why I don't accept the Cloti interpretation of that quote because of what we actually see in the trailer.

It is impossible for Cloud's guilt to be "undying" because Aerith cures Cloud of his guilt in AC. Something can't be "undying" if it can be cured. Do I need to post the synonyms again? Anyway -- since Cloud's guilt is "undying," that confirms that Nomura's comments were NOT in reference to Cloud finding Tifa's unconscious body, but were in reference to the simple fact that Cloud is seen visiting Aerith's Church during the course of the trailer.

At the time of Nomura's comments, all we knew from the trailer was that Cloud is shown walking in her Church. Therefore, if his comments are in reference to the trailer and not the film, they can't be in reference to Cloud finding Tifa's unconscious body because that is not shown in the trailer. Why would he have been referring to a scene no one had any knowledge of? That doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

In all likelihood, the scene where Cloud finds Tifa probably had not been created at the time of Nomura's statements since the trailer was released in 2003 and the film was released in 2005.

Also, in the trailer we do not see Tifa laying in the flowers from above. This is a clear indication that the scene had not been created or thought of during the time of Nomura's comments.

Just to remind you, I don't ship any pairing at all. I actually like Clerith as a fan pairing. I just do not see how anyone could objectively look at it and say they were a canon couple when there's solid evidence for Cloti. And I don't think it's open to interpretation either. I think there's evidence that Cloud and Aerith may have had romantic feelings for one another for a brief period while she was alive. Cloud and Tifa have had and do have a romantic relationship since they were children that fully developed at the end of Final Fantasy VII. If it was open to interpretation I wouldn't give a crap either, but it's not. And that's not opinion.

I've never denied that there is evidence that supports Cloti. I believe SE has provided evidence for both parings. I just happen to believe that the evidence is stronger in favor of Cloud x Aerith, and I'm simply explaining to everyone my Clerith interpretation.

Anyway -- it is your opinion that it is not open to interpretation. But I'm not surprised that you believe Cloti is canon considering you have been hanging around here for a long time. It's just like Fox News -- when you repeat something often enough, you start to accept it as fact.

 

[BlankBeat]

^
What happened to Aerith of course can only be lifted by Aerith herself, everybody know that, silly.
But, Cloud guilt/sins are for two persons.
The translation when Cloud speak to Vincent is, "Are sins ever forgiven?"
And In ACC book, it's said both Zack and Aerith were people whom he can never forget, the "unforgivable sins” in his heart.
Cloud's guilt for Aerith is he failed to protect her. "But I let you die."
Cloud's guilt for Zack is he thought he failed to become the legacy that he totally forget of Zack's existence. "Easy to make a promise."

Look at this scene:

See the yellow and white petals flying away when Cloud stuck the buster sword kicked by Kadaj? It can be assumed that Cloud occasionally visited Zack's grave and carried flowers from Aerith's church. He kept thinking about them both when he was dying.

According to SE, no one can fix Cloud's 'problem' except Aerith. That is why SE puts so much more emphasis on Cloud and Aerith's relationship in AC and not Cloud and Zack's relationship.

Where is Cloud and Zack's scene that is similar to this?

Aerith: So, why did you come? / Cloud: I think ... I want to be forgiven, more than anything. / ... / Cloud: But... I let you die... / Aerith: Dilly dally, shilly shally. Isn't it time you did the forgiving? / ... / Aerith: I never blamed you, not once. You came for me, that's all that matters.

 

[Cookie Monster]

^
What happened to Aerith of course can only be lifted by Aerith herself, everybody know that, silly.
But, Cloud guilt/sins are for two persons.
The translation when Cloud speak to Vincent is, "Are sins ever forgiven?"
And In ACC book, it's said both Zack and Aerith were people whom he can never forget, the "unforgivable sins” in his heart.
Cloud's guilt for Aerith is he failed to protect her. "But I let you die."
Cloud's guilt for Zack is he thought he failed to become the legacy that he totally forget of Zack's existence. "Easy to make a promise."

Look at this scene:

See the yellow and white petals flying away when Cloud stuck the buster sword kicked by Kadaj? It can be assumed that Cloud occasionally visited Zack's grave and carried flowers from Aerith's church. He kept thinking about them both when he was dying.

Correct.

How one selectively infers Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith from his guilt over the death of the two people he failed to protect is beyond me. Must be the FLOWERS.

 

[eleamaya]

Where is Cloud and Zack's scene that is similar to this?

Aerith: So, why did you come? / Cloud: I think ... I want to be forgiven, more than anything. / ... / Cloud: But... I let you die... / Aerith: Dilly dally, shilly shally. Isn't it time you did the forgiving? / ... / Aerith: I never blamed you, not once. You came for me, that's all that matters.

The scene of Zack and Cloud stand back to back is the same meaning as the scene of Aerith and Cloud stand back to back.

As I said before, the guilt towards them is different.
"But I let you die," then Aerith reminded Cloud, "You came for me, that's all the matters."
"Easy to make a promise," then Zack reminded Cloud, "You're my living legacy."

Edit for adding this: I think her quote "You came for me" is refer to Original Game when Cloud came to her and she smiled. Not in AC, because Cloud came to the same place to save the children.

 

[BlankBeat]

The scene of Zack and Cloud stand back to back is the same meaning as the scene of Aerith and Cloud stand back to back.

As I said before, the guilt towards them is different.
"But I let you die," then Aerith reminded Cloud, "You came for me, that's all the matters."
"Easy to make a promise," then Zack reminded Cloud, "You're my living legacy."

Edit for adding this: I think her quote "You came for me" is refer to Original Game when Cloud came to her and she smiled. Not in AC, because Cloud came to the same place to save the children.

You will have to refresh me on the dialogue of Zack and Cloud standing back to back.

In the scene of Cloud and Aerith standing back-to-back, Cloud specifically asks for forgiveness and Aerith says she never blamed him, which directly absolves Cloud of his guilt. Again -- you will have to refresh me on Zack and Cloud's specific conversation.

Furthermore, it is stated by SE that only Aerith can fix Cloud's "problem".

 

[Cookie Monster]

Furthermore, it is stated by SE that only Aerith can fix Cloud's "problem".

You've entrapped yourself, and now you're twisting your own words.

Let me quote you now:

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

This is strictly about his guilt over Aerith's death. Now, let's hold hands and remember Cloud's guilt/problems (please take note of the "s" in problems) extends beyond Aerith.

 

[eleamaya]

"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Nojima still refer "that problem" as what happened to Aerith, the two quotes are still a unity. And I agree that only Aerith could fix it.
Cloud's problem about Zack is separated and different. And, it only can be solves by Zack and Cloud themselves.
Cloud also have problem with Tifa. And no one can be involved here except Cloud and Tifa themselves.

But, why Tifa is not part of his sins? Tifa is not dead!

 

[BlankBeat]

You've entrapped yourself, and now you're twisting your own words.

Let me quote you now:


This is strictly about his guilt over Aerith's death. Now, let's hold hands and remember Cloud's guilt/problems (please take note of the "s" in problems) extends beyond Aerith.

My original post included TWO quotes:
"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Here is the FULL version of my second quote:

"As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, pg. 58, Reunion Files

If you read the full version of my second quote, it says these three things:

"As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life.

One of the first ideas for AC was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt.

For Cloud, NO ONE OTHER THAN AERITH CAN SOLVE THAT PROBLEM FOR HIM."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[Lex]

Why does he feel guilt? Because he let someone who he has an "undying" feeling for get murdered.

The "undying" feeling Cloud has for Aerith underlies and fuels his guilt.

There you go twisting phrases to suit your bias again. He feels guilty because he feels responsible for the death of his friend, as has been explained to you numerous times. This is honestly like watching everyone bang their head against the wall. The undying feeling is guilt, get over it.

Cloud already continued a relationship with Aerith in Advent Children, and is continuing to search for ways to connect with her as evidenced by the end of AC/C when we see him riding through flower fields (ie: the same flower fields that they connect through during the course of the film and the same flowers that SE explicitly says represent Aerith)

I view Cloud similarly to how Yuna felt in FFX and FFX-2.

That's nonsense. Cloud did not continue a relationship with Aerith in Advent Children, she simply popped up when she could to offer him guidance. He isn't searching for ways to connect with her either, he simply happens to be riding through a field of flowers. Where is your evidence that Cloud is actively seeking her? His motion at the end of the film is an appreciative farewell to her and Zack. He's never going to see either of them again. GOODBYE AERITH. ENJOY THE PEACE THAT COMES WITH DEATH. THANKS FOR EVERYTHING. I'LL BE HERE WITH TIFA AND OUR KIDS.

I like your headcanon about the Yuna thing in X and X-2 though, a similar CxA plotline based on the VII storyline would make an excellent fanfic.

In the trailer, we see that Cloud's love for Aerith is "undying" because he continues to visit her Church after her death. The Church is a place where he can connect with Aerith and continue his undying feeling for her.

That's just plain making shit up. You know full well he goes to the church because he's escaping the warmth of his family. He doesn't "continue to visit the church", he hides out there alone. And there's nothing "undying" about what we see in the trailer. That's more nonsense. I've already explained this to you. There is no other interpretation.

SE calls the Church Cloud's "Promised Land." This means that the Church is his place of supreme happiness.

Cloud realizes in AC that he's not alone anymore because he's found Aerith again. We know this because SE said that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. Cloud said at the end of FFVII that he could find Aerith in the Promised Land. Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is, which is her Church (aka: the place SE calls his Promised Land).

Ah yes "promised land" - can't be anything to do with the fact that that's where all the crazy geostigma healing happens eh...

You've twisted the quote again to suit your needs. He realises he's not alone anymore because he gets over his emo-boy issues and realises how precious everyone is to him. Those alive people he lives with. His family. You know, Tifa and the kids.

But his comments were directed at what was shown in the trailer because he knows that is all we had knowledge of at the time.

Therefore, his comments are restricted to what is shown in the trailer, not what is shown in the final movie.

Why would he answer an interview question about the trailer and then reference a scene in the final film and a scene none of us had seen yet?

I did explain to you that him talking about the church even without Tifa in it still does nothing to remove the fact that he's there because of his guilt.

Pure assumption and speculation.

It makes much more sense to assume that the film wasn't finished and that this scene had not been thought of at the time the trailer was released since there was a 2 year gap between the trailer and the final film.

EDIT: If the scene had been created and they didn't want to "spoil" it (as you speculate) they would have simply not shown the Church from above. But since Tifa is now seen from above, it suggests the scene has not been created or thought of yet.

I made no attempt to pretend my one opinion about that being a spoiler was anything but an assumption. I do find it hilarious how much you've focussed on it being an assumption and speculation though, considering everything you've said thus far has been built on assumption and speculation. It would need to be, since Clerith isn't canon.

Then don't debate with me?

You said I was being dishonest in reference to the "undying" quote. I was simply explaining to you why I don't accept the Cloti interpretation of that quote because of what we actually see in the trailer.

It is impossible for Cloud's guilt to be "undying" because Aerith cures Cloud of his guilt in AC. Something can't be "undying" if it can be cured. Do I need to post the synonyms again? Anyway -- since Cloud's guilt is "undying," that confirms that Nomura's comments were NOT in reference to Cloud finding Tifa's unconscious body, but were in reference to the simple fact that Cloud is seen visiting Aerith's Church during the course of the trailer.

At the time of Nomura's comments, all we knew from the trailer was that Cloud is shown walking in her Church. Therefore, if his comments are in reference to the trailer and not the film, they can't be in reference to Cloud finding Tifa's unconscious body because that is not shown in the trailer. Why would he have been referring to a scene no one had any knowledge of? That doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

In all likelihood, the scene where Cloud finds Tifa probably had not been created at the time of Nomura's statements since the trailer was released in 2003 and the film was released in 2005.

I'm not actually debating with you. I'm pointing out where you're being dishonest and attempting to explain why you're being dishonest, lest people skim read it and assume it's the truth.

That Cloud's undying feeling is guilt is not "the Cloti interpretation of that quote", it is what canonically happens. It's not an opinion. I don't understand why you've repeated yourself here either. I've already explained that the Church is a metaphor for his depression and guilt at the death of Aerith, this is reinforced later when he finds Tifa's body there. Before that, the church is ALREADY a metaphor for his guilt and depression, which is why Nomura's "undying" quote refers to this regardless of Tifa being there. And this is the second time I'm explaining this in response to you repeating yourself. Again. Stop that. Cloud finding Tifa is irrelevant. The church symbolises his guilt, not Tifa being there.

I've never denied that there is evidence that supports Cloti. I believe SE has provided evidence for both parings. I just happen to believe that the evidence is stronger in favor of Cloud x Aerith, and I'm simply explaining to everyone my Clerith interpretation.

Anyway -- it is your opinion that it is not open to interpretation. But I'm not surprised that you believe Cloti is canon considering you have been hanging around here for a long time. It's just like Fox News -- when you repeat something often enough, you start to accept it as fact.

I like the way you started here. It's almost nice. Then of course, more nonsense happens. As has been covered, there is a mountain of evidence for Cloti and baseless reaching symbolism only being used as evidence for Clerith. The two don't carry the same weight, and Cloti is canon. I don't believe that because I've been here for a long time, this is not a Cloti site as some would have you believe. This is a site dedicated to being the all-encompassing source of Final Fantasy VII information and exclusive fan works. The people here are passionate about the game and the Compilation and know the source material inside and out. The fact that most of its members know objectively that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship should be telling. And for the record, I knew Cloti was canon before I even knew The Lifestream existed.