The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[BlankBeat]

-If there was more to Cloud and Tifa's relationship now, they would be described with more than just "childhood friends"; for some reason, though, this is not true of Cloud and Aerith's relationship where only "sense of guilt" is used and literally no "favors" arrows get used for anyone; it's still fine to assume more than what is on the chart applies to them; not Cloud and Tifa, though

I'm using the relationship charts as a way to determine how SE feels on a *canon* basis.

If none of the four relationship charts describe Cloud and Tifa as more than childhood friends, that raises a huge red flag, IMO.

What raises even more of a red flag is the fact that they highlighted how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed between FFVII and AC, but they did NOT highlight ANY change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood" friends in both the FFVII and AC chart. That raises even more of a red flag, IMO.

And the final red flag is that Cloud has ZERO favor arrows going to Tifa. And yes, I know that some *canon* couples don't have mutual favor arrows. But is that the rule or the exception...?

We, ourselves, can apply other information to their relationship and make our own judgements and opinions. But from SE's *canon* standpoint, Cloud and Tifa's relationship does not change from childhood friends to lovers according to the OFFICIAL relationship charts. Their relationship is described as childhood friends and childhood friends only in BOTH the FFVII and AC charts.

If Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends in FFVII but became lovers in AC, the FFVII chart should say “childhood friends” and the AC chart should say “romantic lovers”. Instead, both the FFVII chart and the AC chart say, “childhood friends”. This means their relationship did not evolve beyond “childhood friends” because they are given the same relationship description in both charts.

If Cloud and Tifa’s relationship had evolved or changed between FFVII and AC, the two charts would have highlighted this change as they did for Cloud and Aerith’s relationship. That was the designed intent of including two charts — to show how the relationships changed between FFVII and AC. Cloud and Tifa’s relationship did not change because they are described as “childhood friends” in both charts.

-The 10th AU charts are meant to show how Cloud and Aerith's relationship evolved from "bodyguard" to "sense of guilt" from FFVII to AC(C), and how Cloud and Tifa's didn't evolve at all from "childhood friends"; so, no transition of any sort that would merit the use of new words has been made even though Cloud shared his most intimate facets with Tifa and they now live together

Forming a family together (especially at Seventh Heaven) does not mean anything about romance. It's not as though Cloud and Tifa got married. The relationship chart was simply describing Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship within that family. This means, that within the Seventh Heaven family, Cloud and Tifa are only "childhood friends" according to the AC chart.

There's no kiss, there's no marriage, there's no, "will you be my girlfriend?", there's no "I love you", there's nothing that unequivocally moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. This is proven by the fact that the FFVII and AC relationship charts use the same description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship -- "childhood friends".

Expressing mutual romantic feelings =/= romantic relationship, especially when we consider that the FFVII and AC relationship charts don't highlight any sort of change in their relationship after the HAHW scene.

If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her because of the current state of their relationship, this supports the fact that according to the AC relationship chart, they are not more than childhood friends.

Living together in Seventh Heaven when Cloud has his own bed in his own room supports that they are not more than "childhood friends" according to the AC relationship chart.

Living together in Seventh Heaven with Barret's daughter, Marlene, supports that they are not more than "childhood friends" according to the AC relationship chart.

The HAHW scene does not mean they are more than childhood friends because Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship after FFVII. This is supported by the fact that the two relationship charts don't tell us that any sort of "evolution" takes place within their relationship after the HAHW scene. They are described as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII and AC charts. If the HAHW scene changed their relationship, this should have been highlighted in the two charts.

-Nomura saying he is going to leave things up to people's imaginations when talking about a scene from a movie two years before the movie is released means he is leaving it up to their imaginations indefinitely

When was the first time Cloud's guilt was spoken of? Before the film came out?

Also -- Cloud asking for "forgiveness" while walking in Aerith's Church during the trailer is not something that needs to be left up to our imagination. We *know* what Cloud wants forgiveness from. Therefore, if this "feeling" is left up to our imagination, why would he be referring to something that isn't left up to our imagination?

-Nomura is thoroughly concerned with the LTD in his first interview after the existence of Advent Children was revealed to the public, despite saying he doesn't care who loves whom romantically

Why would Nomura laugh if he was referring to Cloud's guilt?

Knowing how crazy the LTD is made him qualify his statement with, "I'll leave this [feeling] to everyone's imagination" and caused him to laugh, IMO.

Also -- you forgot this argument:

Trying to compare human emotions to that of fictional creatures is grasping at straws, IMO.

When has an undying *feeling* ever been used to refer to feelings that were NOT everlasting?

You don't go around telling someone you have a certain undying feeling for them when you don't, unless you're a liar. The same applies to Nomura. He could have simply said Cloud carries his own feeling for Aerith -- he didn't have to use the phrase "undying feeling" if that's not what he meant.

Again: "undying" creatures =/= "undying" feelings.

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. Sure, you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to an actual living creature does not mean eternal and forever. But when it is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever.

The bottom line is: comparing "undying" creatures to "undying" feelings is grasping at straws and comparing apples to oranges, IMO. You don't have an "undying" feeling unless it is eternal and forever. The fact that an undying creature can die is completely different because it is a physical being. But the term when applied to a feeling or emotion is completely different than when applied to a physical being. Period.

And you never answered this question:
If you say the word translated as “feeling” means “guilt” in this quote, then why do you say that the word translated as “feeling” means “love” in the HW quotes that you use to “prove” the HAHW scene is canon? If you say that the word “feeling” can have more than one translation, then we can’t know for sure that the word “feeling” means “love” in your quotes about the HW scene, right? Please clarify.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

The word translated as feeling in both cases actually means feeling in both cases. It's just the feeling that's being talked about that's different between cases.

 

[Danseru-kun]

And you never answered this question:
If you say the word translated as “feeling” means “guilt” in this quote, then why do you say that the word translated as “feeling” means “love” in the HW quotes that you use to “prove” the HAHW scene is canon? If you say that the word “feeling” can have more than one translation, then we can’t know for sure that the word “feeling” means “love” in your quotes about the HW scene, right? Please clarify.

1. Cloud's undying feelings are used in a context where it's connected to the church scene in the trailers
2. The church scene in the trailers has Cloud asking for forgiveness
3. The HW scene says that only the HA scene has feelings involved, there is no quote saying feelings are exchanged in the LA one
4. The HW scene (regardless of version) is featured in For the One I Love Page which lists all other FFVII romantic moments, it's not listed among non-romantic love (like Terra's love for the children)
5. The HW scene's feelings are confirmed to be "feelings of desire for each other."
6. Words used here are "confirm," "reveal," for "each other."
7. Meta-sense wise, if you're looking at the context of the scene. Tifa and Cloud learned each other's feelings in the Lifestream, it's their last night together, then Cloud said "hey I still can't say what I wnna say," then Tifa was like "Words aren't the only way baby." Then.... they're going to confirm that they're sooooo friends?
8. The Japanese phrase for the HW scenes are specifically romantic, and even used in Japanese dating sites and canon couples like Tuna, Squinoa, CelesxLocke
9. Cloud and Tifa is described to have mutual "koui" for each other, which is Aerith's feelings for Cloud, Cerosa's mutual feelings for each other, Squinoa's feelings for each other and this leads to the HA scene. Note that a Japanese love-related site says koui is needed to confirm feelings.
10. The phrases used for the HW scene are romantic according to two of my Japanese friends, 想いを通わせる already means exchange of feelings without words, romantic feelings to boot.

Now see the level of difference? I will accept undying feelings as romantic love if:

• You can give me a similar quote (not scenes or motiff) present in other canon couples
• You can give me Japanese dating sites that uses the same Japanese text that support Cloud's love for Aerith as romantic

 

[BlankBeat]

1. Cloud's undying feelings are used in a context where it's connected to the church scene in the trailers
2. The church scene in the trailers has Cloud asking for forgiveness
3. The HW scene says that only the HA scene has feelings involved, there is no quote saying feelings are exchanged in the LA one
4. The HW scene (regardless of version) is featured in For the One I Love Page which lists all other FFVII romantic moments, it's not listed among non-romantic love (like Terra's love for the children)
5. The HW scene's feelings are confirmed to be "feelings of desire for each other."
6. Words used here are "confirm," "reveal," for "each other."
7. Meta-sense wise, if you're looking at the context of the scene. Tifa and Cloud learned each other's feelings in the Lifestream, it's their last night together, then Cloud said "hey I still can't say what I wnna say," then Tifa was like "Words aren't the only way baby." Then.... they're going to confirm that they're sooooo friends?
8. The Japanese phrase for the HW scenes are specifically romantic, and even used in Japanese dating sites and canon couples like Tuna, Squinoa, CelesxLocke
9. Cloud and Tifa is described to have mutual "koui" for each other, which is Aerith's feelings for Cloud, Cerosa's mutual feelings for each other, Squinoa's feelings for each other and this leads to the HA scene. Note that a Japanese love-related site says koui is needed to confirm feelings.
10. The phrases used for the HW scene are romantic according to two of my Japanese friends, 想いを通わせる already means exchange of feelings without words, romantic feelings to boot.

Now see the level of difference? I will accept undying feelings as romantic love if:

• You can give me a similar quote (not scenes or motiff) present in other canon couples
• You can give me Japanese dating sites that uses the same Japanese text that support Cloud's love for Aerith as romantic

I appreciate your response and will be crafting a response to it soon.

But why did you leave my last response to you unanswered?

You explained why Cloud has no "favor" arrows going to Tifa by saying not every canon couple has mutual favor arrows. But my question to you is, do *MOST* of the canon couples have mutual favor arrows?

It was brought to my attention that Lulu and Wakka do not have mutual favor arrows. But are they the EXCEPTION or the RULE? Again, do *MOST* canon couple have mutual favor arrows? Because if *MOST* canon couples have mutual favor arrows, it raises a HUGE red flag that Cloud and Tifa do *NOT* have mutual favor arrows.

In addition, Lulu and Wakka get married *after* FFX. Is the chart referring to FFX only, or the entire FFX compilation?

It was also brought to my attention that Cid treats Shera "unkindly" according to the relationship chart. But was that chart referring to FFVII specifically? Because in FFVII, Cid *does* treat her unkindly. They do not get married until *AFTER* FFVII ends. This means that if the relationship chart was referring to FFVII specifically, then it makes sense that it tells us that Cid treats Shera "unkindly".

But my whole point has been that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania provides TWO relationship charts. One for FFVII and one for AC.

By including two charts it is meant to compare and contrast relationships in FFVII to relationships in AC. Essentially, having two charts helps highlight the *changes* the relationships have gone through between FFVII and AC.

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship does not go through any *changes* because they are referred to as “childhood friends” in both charts.

However, that is not the case for Cloud and Aerith. The FFVII chart states Cloud is Aerith’s “bodyguard.” Then, for the AC chart, it states Cloud feels a, “sense of guilt” towards Aerith. That’s because Cloud failed to protect Aerith — meaning he failed as her bodyguard. The difference between Cloud and Aerith’s two charts was the perfect way for SE to show us how their relationship changed between FFVII and AC — Cloud failed as her “bodyguard” in FFVII, so he feels a sense of “guilt” towards her in AC. Why did they not do the same for Cloud and Tifa? Answer: because Cloud and Tifa’s relationship did not change.

If Cloud and Tifa's relationship had gone through a *change*, it would have been highlighted with these two charts. If Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends in FFVII but became lovers in AC, the FFVII chart should say “childhood friends” and the AC chart should say “romantic lovers”. Instead, both the FFVII chart and the AC chart say “childhood friends”. This means their relationship did not evolve beyond “childhood friends” because they are given the same relationship description in both charts.

 

[Octo]

Has anyone got a link to these two charts? I'm on my phone right now and searching is fiddly.

Also cloud and tifa didnt ever stop being childhood friends. I had a childhood friend I dont speak to any more but we will always have been childhood friends.

Also Clouds sense of guilt isnt really about failing Aerith as a bodyguard, it's failing to protect her as a friend.

 

[Danseru-kun]

@ Blankbeat

My answer is very simple, after that tons of evidence cannot be disproven by an absence of a romantic indication in the charts because Tifa and Cloud are forever childhood friends. They never stopped. A couple married for 50 years remain as childhood friends.

The fact remains that they confirmed mutual romantic affections leading them to live together and Tifa is a koibito at that time and they're still childhood friends.

Cloud and Tifa never stopped being childhood friends, that kind of bond is forever.

 

[BlankBeat]

Has anyone got a link to these two charts? I'm on my phone right now and searching is fiddly.

FFVII chart
AC chart

Also cloud and tifa didnt ever stop being childhood friends. I had a childhood friend I dont speak to any more but we will always have been childhood friends.

But by including two charts, it was to show how the relationships *changed* between the time of FFVII to the time of AC. The fact that their relationship is not shown as *changing* between FFVII and AC, tells us that their relationship did not evolve or grow beyond "childhood friends".

Also -- the lack of "favor" arrows going from Cloud to Tifa tells me that this romantic relationship is not *mutual*. Until someone can tell me that it is the *RULE* not the *EXCEPTION* that canon couples lack mutual favor arrows, it raises a huge flag that Cloud has no favor arrow to Tifa.

Also Clouds sense of guilt isnt really about failing Aerith as a bodyguard, it's failing to protect her as a friend.

I think it was just a clever way for SE to compare/contrast Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII to their relationship in AC.

By saying Cloud was Aerith's bodyguard in FFVII, and then saying he felt guilt towards her in AC, tells us that because he failed as her bodyguard in FFVII, he then feels guilt towards her in AC (ie: the perfect way to show how their relationship *changed* from FFVII to AC).

------------

My answer is very simple, after that tons of evidence cannot be disproven by an absence of a romantic indication in the charts because Tifa and Cloud are forever childhood friends. They never stopped. A couple married for 50 years remain as childhood friends.

The fact remains that they confirmed mutual romantic affections leading them to live together and Tifa is a koibito at that time and they're still childhood friends.

I've already responded to this argument so here is my response that I gave to Tres (which he hasn't responded to):

Forming a family together (especially at Seventh Heaven) does not mean anything about romance. It's not as though Cloud and Tifa got married. The relationship chart was simply describing Cloud and Tifa's one-on-one relationship within that family. This means, that within the Seventh Heaven family, Cloud and Tifa are only "childhood friends" according to the AC chart.

There's no kiss, there's no marriage, there's no, "will you be my girlfriend?", there's no "I love you", there's nothing that unequivocally moves Cloud and Tifa from friends to lovers after the HAHW scene. This is proven by the fact that the FFVII and AC relationship charts use the same description for Cloud and Tifa's relationship -- "childhood friends".

Expressing mutual romantic feelings =/= romantic relationship, especially when we consider that the FFVII and AC relationship charts don't highlight any sort of change in their relationship after the HAHW scene.

If Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her because of the current state of their relationship, this supports the fact that according to the AC relationship chart, they are not more than childhood friends.

Living together in Seventh Heaven when Cloud has his own bed in his own room supports that they are not more than "childhood friends" according to the AC relationship chart.

Living together in Seventh Heaven with Barret's daughter, Marlene, supports that they are not more than "childhood friends" according to the AC relationship chart.

Cloud and Tifa never stopped being childhood friends, that kind of bond is forever.

I understand that they will be childhood friends forever.

But my point is that by including two charts they were showing how the relationships changed/evolved from FFVII to AC. By using the same description for both FFVII and AC, it tell us that their relationship did not change/evolve on a *canon* basis.

If anything would tell us that Cloud and Tifa are the *canon* couple, it would be the *relationship* charts. But these two charts tell us that no such evolution in their relationship took place between FFVII and AC. They will forever remain “childhood friends” only.

You also never answered these questions:
Do *MOST* of the canon couples have mutual favor arrows?
[Relevant because if *MOST* canon couples have mutual favor arrows, it raises a HUGE red flag that Cloud and Tifa do *NOT* have mutual favor arrows.]

Lulu and Wakka get married *after* FFX. Is the chart referring to FFX only, or the entire FFX compilation?

It was also brought to my attention that Cid treats Shera "unkindly" according to the relationship chart.
But was that chart referring to FFVII specifically?
Because in FFVII, Cid *does* treat her unkindly. They do not get married until *AFTER* FFVII ends. This means that if the relationship chart was referring to FFVII specifically, then it makes sense that it tells us that Cid treats Shera "unkindly".

But my whole point has been that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania provides TWO relationship charts. One for FFVII and one for AC.

By including two charts it is meant to compare and contrast relationships in FFVII to relationships in AC. Essentially, having two charts helps highlight the *changes* the relationships have gone through between FFVII and AC. Cloud and Tifa's relationship does not go through any *changes* because they are described as childhood friends *only* in both the FFVII chart and AC chart.

 

[JayM]

BlankBeat, I'm not sure where you found the pics you linked to, but if you have a link to the entire AC chart instead of just the Cloud/Tifa part, we can answer the Cid/Shera question right quick.

 

[BlankBeat]

I'd like to point out that comparing Lulu x Wakka and Cid x Shera to Cloud x Tifa is hardly relevant because Lulu and Wakka officially get married and have a biological child, and Cid and Shera also get officially married. This makes them canon regardless of the relationship charts.

The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa because they don't have biological children and do not get married.

Furthermore, we don't know if Lulu x Wakka's chart is referring to FFX only or the compilation. And we also don't know if Cid x Shera's chart is referring to FFVII only or the compilation. Both couples get married *AFTER* their respective games end.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Are you also gonna say comparing Cloud and Tifa quotes to quotes pertaining to other canon couples such as Squall/Rinoa, Celes/Locke, and others (as pointed out by Danseru) also hardly relevant?

Because it just means you really don't care much for another point of view other than your own. You will twist and turn and disregard everything that does not coincide with your views. This makes debating with any of us a waste of time. None of us will yield because we know our arguments are facts and not opinion, and you won't yield because you don't accept this. You have misinterpreted a lot of things in the story already: Zack's relationship with Cloud (your biggest sin, imo), Cloud's character, Aerith's love for both men, etc. Included are circular arguments and double standards about the usage of translations and disregard for simple things such as two childhood friends continuing to be childhood friends despite the progress in the story.

You only say the comparison is hardly relevant because you believe it is. You refuse to believe that it can ever be relevant in comparison because that means losing the argument. Because everyone with basic knowledge of Advent Children Complete know that Cloud and Tifa are co-habiting. Numerous quotes and statements prove this. It's so obvious we don't even need to quote stuff.

But wait! Two people who love each other have to get married to prove that they do? I don't think my parents will be very happy to hear that I need to get married to my boyfriend because that's the only way to prove we love each other. Dear me, I'm only 16!

Cloud and Tifa have only been together for two years. Cid and Shera have been together for a lot longer. Arguably, Cid realized he wanted to marry Shera at the night before the final battle. You know what else happened during the night of the final battle? The Highwind scene and communication of feelings between Cloud and Tifa. Do the math.

And just because they don't have biological children doesn't mean they don't actually have children. They adopted Denzel. He's their child. And before you say anything, no, Barret has nothing to do with the adoption of Denzel. Neither do the rest of the team. Denzel considers himself the child to Cloud and Tifa--not Aerith, but Tifa. I doubt he even knows who Aerith is.

Are you going to argue that two people who are living together and adopting a child doesn't count because the child isn't biologically related? I know a lot of real life adopted children and parents who can't have biological children who will angrily dispute that.

BTW, guilt =/= love. If I stab someone and feel guilty about it, does this mean I'm in love with them? No. I simply have feelings of guilt for STABBING the person. Yeah, arguing that guilt must be associated with and/or a result of romantic feelings is moot. You have many interpretations for such a simple thing, yet you completely ignore it for what it is--GUILT.

G'bye.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Furthermore, we don't know if Lulu x Wakka's chart is referring to FFX only or the compilation. And we also don't know if Cid x Shera's chart is referring to FFVII only or the compilation. Both couples get married *AFTER* their respective games end.

Once again, Cloud and Tifa are expected to go above and beyond a standard that not even Cecil and Rosa -- who marry as their game ends -- have to meet. Like Mei pointed out, all the quotes where Cloud and Tifa's moment of confession is described with wording identical to that of nearly every other couple on the "For the One I Love" page (+Zell and the library girl) is thrown out in favor of focusing on a bunch of charts with painfully incomplete data (going by the 10th AU charts, nobody has romantic feelings for anybody).

Because BlankBeat doesn't care about the truth. And you can't debate with someone who isn't interested in truth.

 

[BlankBeat]

Are you also gonna say comparing Cloud and Tifa quotes to quotes pertaining to other canon couples such as Squall/Rinoa, Celes/Locke, and others (as pointed out by Danseru) also hardly relevant?

Do you not find it the least bit odd that SE included a FFVII relationship chart and an AC relationship chart and they described Cloud and Tifa as "childhood" friends in both charts?

If Cloud and Tifa were labeled as "childhood friends" in an all encompassing chart of Final Fantasy VII, although I'd still find it very strange, I could probably accept it. But what makes this all the more strange is that they use the exact same relationship description for both FFVII and AC -- even though that completely defeats the purpose of including two charts.

If from a canon standpoint Cloud and Tifa evolved from "childhood friends" in FFVII to "lovers" in AC, wouldn't the two charts have highlighted this? By describing them as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart, it 100% defeats the purpose of including two charts.

Do you not find that odd? To me, it seems like including two relationship charts would be the *PERFECT OPPORTUNITY* to officially tell us that Cloud and Tifa progressed from childhood friends to lovers between FFVII and AC. Yet, they are described as "childhood friends" in both charts.

No one has yet to give me an honest answer to this question.

To me, if an evolution took place in their relationship between FFVII and AC, the two charts would have highlighted this change as they did for Cloud and Aerith. Instead, the two charts tell us that their relationship did not evolve because the description for their relationship is the same for FFVII as it is for AC -- "childhood friends".

Because it just means you really don't care much for another point of view other than your own. You will twist and turn and disregard everything that does not coincide with your views. This makes debating with any of us a waste of time. None of us will yield because we know our arguments are facts and not opinion, and you won't yield because you don't accept this. You have misinterpreted a lot of things in the story already: Zack's relationship with Cloud (your biggest sin, imo), Cloud's character, Aerith's love for both men, etc. Included are circular arguments and double standards about the usage of translations and disregard for simple things such as two childhood friends continuing to be childhood friends despite the progress in the story.

Thanks for your rant. If you don't want to debate with me, don't.

Because everyone with basic knowledge of Advent Children Complete know that Cloud and Tifa are co-habiting. Numerous quotes and statements prove this. It's so obvious we don't even need to quote stuff.

Without a marriage, a kiss, an "I love you", a "will you be my girlfriend?", sleeping in the same bed, etc., that means: co-habiting =/= romantic relationship.

Let me remind you that in this cohabitation, Cloud has his own room and his own bed. We never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together.

Let me remind you that in this cohabitation, Barret has always been apart of the Seventh Heaven Family. Marlene is Barret's daughter. Hell, Barret says in AC that he hopes to be back to visit Marlene soon and he rushes back to defend his "family". Excluding Barret from the family is like excluding a parent who has to travel for their job. Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel are only a family of four while Barret is away for his job. Barret will always be Marlene's Father figure, not Cloud. I find it insulting to assume she has two Father figures and belongs to two families. To me, this nonsense about Marlene belonging to two families is really grasping at straws, IMO.

If Nomura doesn't know the status of their relationship during the two years after the HAHW scene and Tifa doesn't know if Cloud loves her, cohabiting =/= romantic relationship.

Seventh Heaven has always been the home-base for those in AVALANCHE that live in Midgar.

But wait! Two people who love each other have to get married to prove that they do? I don't think my parents will be very happy to hear that I need to get married to my boyfriend because that's the only way to prove we love each other. Dear me, I'm only 16!

What I'm saying is that a marriage unequivocally proves that a mutual romantic relationship exists. Therefore, a relationship chart is irrelevant.

However, expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship. Until there is a marriage, an "I love you", a "will you be my girlfriend", a scene of Cloud and Tifa sleeping in the same bed, a kiss, etc., you are only ASSUMING a romantic relationship developed from the HAHW scene.

According to the relationship charts that were designed to highlight changes from FFVII to AC, nothing changed or evolved in Cloud and Tifa's relationship. They remain "childhood friends" only.

Cloud and Tifa have only been together for two years. Cid and Shera have been together for a lot longer. Arguably, Cid realized he wanted to marry Shera at the night before the final battle. You know what else happened during the night of the final battle? The Highwind scene and communication of feelings between Cloud and Tifa. Do the math.

But in FFVII Cid and Shera were not *lovers*. So that's why I'm assuming the chart that says Cid was mean to Shera is talking about FFVII *only*. But I can't say for sure because the very people who brought up this argument haven't answered my question.

The point I'm making is that the FFVII10AU included two charts to show how relationships changed from FFVII to AC. Cloud and Tifa are described the same way in both charts, meaning they did not become more than "childhood friends" because they are described the same in both charts.

Furthermore, in none of the four relationship charts does Cloud have "favor" arrows going to Tifa. If they were the *canon* couple, why does Cloud have no "favor" arrows going to Tifa?

And again, someone brought up that Lulu and Wakka don't have mutual favor arrows. But is that the exception or the rule? Do the people who brought this argument up know the answer to that question? From the looks of it...no.

My ASSUMPTION is that *MOST* canon couples have mutual favor arrows. I could be wrong, but that seems like the most likely scenario. If *most* canon couples do have mutual favor arrows, then that raises a huge red flag for Cloud and Tifa, IMO.

Furthermore, Lulu and Wakka get married after FFX. Was their chart talking about the FFX *only* or the FFX compilation?

And just because they don't have biological children doesn't mean they don't actually have children. They adopted Denzel. He's their child. And before you say anything, no, Barret has nothing to do with the adoption of Denzel. Neither do the rest of the team. Denzel considers himself the child to Cloud and Tifa--not Aerith, but Tifa. I doubt he even knows who Aerith is.

Yes, he views them as his parents because they are the two adults living at Seventh Heaven. It's not as though they adopted him as a *couple*. You, again, are assuming too much.

Plus, Denzel shares a room with Marlene. Denzel and Marlene are family. But Marlene is Barret's daughter. Are you pretending Barret doesn't exist again?

Are you going to argue that two people who are living together and adopting a child doesn't count because the child isn't biologically related? I know a lot of real life adopted children and parents who can't have biological children who will angrily dispute that.

No. What I'm saying is that comparing Cid and Shera's relationship chart to Cloud and Tifa's relationship chart is a moot point because we have unequivocal evidence that Cid and Shera move beyond a friendship because they get married. But because Cloud and Tifa do not get married, we can't ASSUME Cloud and Tifa are in a *romantic relationship* just because they expressed mutual feelings (I explained why above).

The bottom line is: unlike Cid and Shera, Cloud and Tifa have nothing that unequivocally moves them beyond friends after the HAHW scene. The relationship charts for FFVII and AC tell us that no *official* evolution took place between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene.

The designed intent of including two charts was to show us how the relationships changed from FFVII to AC. They showed us how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed from FFVII to AC, yet Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" in both charts. This means no such evolution from friends to lovers took place between Cloud and Tifa on a *canon* basis.

Wouldn't the relationship charts be the perfect opportunity to show us how the *canon* couple evolved from friends to lovers? If they can show how Cloud and Aerith's relationship changed between FFVII and AC, you'd think they would have done the same for Cloud and Tifa. But the fact is -- they didn't.

BTW, guilt =/= love. If I stab someone and feel guilty about it, does this mean I'm in love with them? No. I simply have feelings of guilt for STABBING the person. Yeah, arguing that guilt must be associated with and/or a result of romantic feelings is moot. You have many interpretations for such a simple thing, yet you completely ignore it for what it is--GUILT.

G'bye.

But Cloud is described as Aerith's "koibito". Koibito means mutual romance. This means that his guilt is fueled by the romantic feelings he has for her that carry on into the spiritual world.

I do not deny that there is evidence in favor of Cloud and Tifa. What I deny is that Cloud and Tifa are *canon*, and the relationships chart proves my point 100%.

If there is one thing that should explicitly tell us what Cloud and Tifa's relationship is, it would be the *RELATIONSHIP CHARTS*. But I can tell you for a fact that you won't find *mutual* favor arrows between Cloud and Tifa, and you also won't find a description saying they are anything more than "childhood friends" only.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I do not deny that there is evidence in favor of Cloud and Tifa. What I deny is that Cloud and Tifa are *canon*, and the relationships chart proves my point 100%.

LOL.


Go ahead and call me rude (I have been called worst things and I deserved 80% of them) but dang. Cloud and Tifa aren't canon because of relationship charts.

I guess Lulu x Wakka and Cid x Shera aren't either. No matter what ANYONE says. Because relationship charts. Other supplementary materials are nothing. Because relationship charts! Cameos don't count either because they are not relationship charts!

RELATIONSHIP CHARTS

Remember this post, guys. Especially when they start to use the relationship charts to also prove Cloud x Aerith is the "intended pairing".

That is all.

 

[BlankBeat]

Once again, Cloud and Tifa are expected to go above and beyond a standard that not even Cecil and Rosa -- who marry as their game ends -- have to meet. Like Mei pointed out, all the quotes where Cloud and Tifa's moment of confession is described with wording identical to that of nearly every other couple on the "For the One I Love" page (+Zell and the library girl) is thrown out in favor of focusing on a bunch of charts with painfully incomplete data (going by the 10th AU charts, nobody has romantic feelings for anybody).

Because BlankBeat doesn't care about the truth. And you can't debate with someone who isn't interested in truth.

I'm confused...are you saying Cecil and Rosa do not have mutual favor arrows? Are they the rule or the exception?

As for the marriage bit:

All I'm saying is that marriage unequivocally proves that mutual feelings turned into a romantic relationship. All the canon couples have indisputable romantic scenes, or they simply get married. The same can't be said for Cloud and Tifa. Yes, Cloud and Tifa express mutual feelings. But that doesn't mean a relationship begins. Hell, even Nomura doesn't know if a romantic relationship begins between them for the two years after FFVII ends. Plus, Cloud has a bed in his room.

Until Cloud and Tifa get married, share a kiss, say "I love you" or "will you be my girlfriend", sleep in the same bed, etc., there is nothing that moves them from friends to lovers after they express mutual feelings. Tifa doesn't even know if Cloud loves her!

And the only proof I need is the relationship charts. You know, the very charts that describe people's one-on-one *RELATIONSHIPS*.

You still haven't explained why there is no difference in the relationship description for Cloud and Tifa when that was the designed intent of including both an FFVII chart and an AC chart.

Furthermore, in all 4 relationship charts Cloud and Tifa are described as "childhood friends" only. Seems odd for the *canon* couple.

Again -- if Cloud and Tifa were labeled as "childhood friends" in an all encompassing chart of Final Fantasy VII, although I'd still find it very strange, I could probably accept it. But what makes this all the more strange is that SE uses the exact same relationship description for both FFVII and AC -- even though that completely defeats the purpose of including two charts.

If from a canon standpoint Cloud and Tifa evolved from "childhood friends" in FFVII to "lovers" in AC, the two charts would have highlighted this change because that was their designed intent. But they didn't. They use the same description for both charts -- "childhood friends."

If anything should tell us that Cloud and Tifa are the *canon* couple in an *official* relationship, it should be the *relationship* charts.

 

[BlankBeat]

LOL.


Go ahead and call me rude (I have been called worst things and I deserved 80% of them) but dang. Cloud and Tifa aren't canon because of relationship charts.

I guess Lulu x Wakka and Cid x Shera aren't either. No matter what ANYONE says. Because relationship charts. Other supplementary materials are nothing. Because relationship charts! Cameos don't count either because they are not relationship charts!

RELATIONSHIP CHARTS

Remember this post, guys. Especially when they start to use the relationship charts to also prove Cloud x Aerith is the "intended pairing".

That is all.

The fact that SE included an FFVII chart and an AC chart means that these charts are not always all encompassing.

Cid x Shera don't get married until *after* FFVII. Was their chart talking about FFVII only, or the FFVII compilation? Please defend your argument.

Lulu x Wakka don't get married until *after* FFX. Was their chart talking about FFX only, or the FFX compilation? Please defend your argument.

Are Cid x Shera and Lulu x Wakka the exception or the rule? Please defend your argument.

EDIT: Also -- you provide no explanation for why SE described Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of including two charts? If their relationship had evolved from FFVII to AC, why are they described as "childhood friends" in both?

 

[Octo]

FFVII chart
AC chart

Thanks for the links, I'd like to see the full version of the AC chart though.

Now I'm confused, that FFVII chart is different from the one I've seen before. Where are the favour arrows between Tseng and Aerith and Rude and Tifa?

Anyway, if we're seriously going to say that the relationship charts prove anything then we have to apply that standard to Cloud/Aerith too. So he was just her bodyguard and he feels bad because he fucked it up and she got killed? Because they weren't friends at all otherwise the chart would show that right?

I know nobody here believes that.

Anyway I would like to see a full size version of the AC chart if anyone could link to that, if only to satisfy my own curiosity. I have to say it looks like lots of information is missing and there is a lot of inconsistenct between the 3 charts :/

 

[BlankBeat]

Just want to make this point clear:
Yes, other canon couples have similar mutual romantic confessions as Cloud and Tifa.

But other canon couples also have indisputable evidence of being in a *romantic* relationship as well.

Cloud and Tifa have the first piece, but not the second piece. They confess mutual romantic feelings, but they have no kiss, no marriage, no "I love you", no "will you be my girlfriend", no sleeping in the same room, etc.

So yes, Cloud and Tifa confess mutual feelings. But unlike other canon couples, nothing takes Cloud and Tifa to the *relationship* stage. This is evidenced by the relationship chart that describes them as "childhood friends" for both FFVII and AC. This tells us that they did not evolve beyond "childhood friends" because that was the designed intent of including both the FFVII chart and the AC chart.

I'd also argue that Cloud and Aerith going on a date after Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him also shows mutual romance.

The bottom line is: Cloud did/does not have a romantic *relationship* with either Aerith or Tifa. But there is evidence that he *LOVES* both of them.

Now I'm confused, that FFVII chart is different from the one I've seen before. Where are the favour arrows between Tseng and Aerith and Rude and Tifa?

There's 4 charts.

The FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania provides two relationship charts. One for FFVII and one for AC. These two charts do *NOT* have favor arrows.

The third chart is found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, and the fourth chart is found in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania. These are the ones that have favor arrows. These charts only show favor arrows going from Aerith and Tifa to Cloud. They do not show “favor” arrows going from Cloud to either Aerith or Tifa. Both of these charts ALSO list Cloud and Tifa as “childhood friends” only.

If you lost count, that's a total of 4 charts that describe Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" only.

Anyway, if we're seriously going to say that the relationship charts prove anything then we have to apply that standard to Cloud/Aerith too. So he was just her bodyguard and he feels bad because he fucked it up and she got killed? Because they weren't friends at all otherwise the chart would show that right?

It's not that it is impossible for Cloud and Tifa to be described as childhood friends but then at the same time be *more* than childhood friends.

What I think is problematic is that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania doesn't include an all encompassing chart. If Cloud and Tifa were described as childhood friends in an all encompassing chart, that would be one thing. But what I'm pointing out is that because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania included TWO charts specifically to show how the relationships changed between FFVII and AC, the fact that there is a lack of EVOLUTION and CHANGE in the way SE describes Cloud and Tifa's relationship tells me that they did not change or evolve between the two time periods.

So I'm not saying that being described as childhood friends means they can't be more than childhood friends. But when there's two charts specifically meant to highlight changes in relationships, and then these two charts do not indicate any change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship between FFVII and AC (and actually use the same relationship description that calls them "childhood friends" in both charts), I believe that is problematic and tells us that no no evolution from friends to lovers took place between them on a *canon basis.

To me, this would have been the perfect opportunity for SE to show Cloud and Tifa's relationship going from that of friends to lovers if that was their intent. The sad fact is, that is not their intent. And I stand by that.

Side-note not directed at you:
To dismiss the relationship charts simply because they don't support Cloti is pathetic, IMO.

Relationship charts are specifically designed to describe *RELATIONSHIPS*. Cloud and Tifa are not described as anything more than childhood friends in ALL FOUR relationship charts. No evolution takes place between the FFVII chart and the AC chart, either.

To me, the relationship charts prove a hell of a lot and it's sad that people seem to be dismissing their importance simply because they put a kink in your idea that Clot is canon.

 

[Octo]

I would still like to see the full chart, I have googled and all I see is the close up version. This is more for my own curiosity, I want to see how the other relationships have changed from FFVII to AC.

 

[I Am Not Me]

To dismiss the relationship charts simply because they don't support Cloti is pathetic, IMO.

Relationship charts are specifically designed to describe *RELATIONSHIPS*. Cloud and Tifa are not described as anything more than childhood friends in ALL FOUR relationship charts. No evolution takes place between the FFVII chart and the AC chart, either.

To me, the relationship charts prove a hell of a lot and it's sad that people seem to be dismissing their importance simply because they put a kink in your idea that Clot is canon.

To dismiss the FTOIL page is pretty pathetic too, imho. FTOIL page prove a hell of a lot of things and you seem to be dismissing it a lot because it doesn't support Clerith.

Which do you think has more credence of the two when talking about romantic feelings? A relationship chart that both times do not acknowledge (as you say) "favor" for people who obviously have or a page titled "For the One I Love" where several other canon couples are shown together during their most romantic moments?

I mean, by your logic, there should be "favor" arrows for everyone who like each other in the charts because that's the only way to prove they ever had feelings for each other. By that logic, Cloud and Aerith never had and never will have a relationship because all there is between them is "bodyguard" and "feels guilty for". Bodyguard =/= lover. And again, guilt =/= love. Guilt = guilt. So you can stop arguing that Clerith is intended because the charts disprove them too.

Because relationship charts!

Sorry, I'm not even interested in discussing with you because your arguments are circular and completely biased. Defending my argument to you is useless because you are not willing to see it any other way. This has been your attitude for pages and pages, always coming back to stuff already disputed by numerous people beforehand. I simply don't have the patience for you.

As for me, I will continue to enjoy the chaos in this thread and click the Thanks button when necessary. Maybe come up with Clack arguments because I believe Clack is the intended pairing of FFVII.

G'bye again.

 

[BlankBeat]

I would still like to see the full chart, I have googled and all I see is the close up version. This is more for my own curiosity, I want to see how the other relationships have changed from FFVII to AC.

I will try to find them. Tres might be able to help...?

 

[I Am Not Me]

I find it insulting to assume she has two Father figures and belongs to two families. To me, this nonsense about Marlene belonging to two families is really grasping at straws, IMO.

Must have missed this the first time but why is this insulting exactly? XD What kind of world are you living in? Haven't you heard of extended families, divorced and remarried couples, and all that kind of stuff? There are kids that have gotten more than two families in their lifetime because of parents remarrying and having other children. Of parents dying too.

Denzel's parents died and now he's in a new family. HOW INSULTING OF HIM TO BE ADOPTED AND GETTING A NEW FATHER FIGURE

Did you really expect FFVII to be perfection considering all the effort the writers made to make the characters seem more realistic and relatable? Real life isn't perfect.

Hell, Marlene actually has THREE fathers. Remember Dyne? Her real father? What a convenient thing to forget. Both Dyne and Barret are her fathers. So tell me again why Marlene can't have two fathers and two families? And why it's insulting?

It's actually insulting to think you can accept only one father figure in your lifetime. I feel bad for the people that have tried to be a father figure to you at some point.

This relationship chart business seems like grasping at straws to me, imo.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Octo, here are all the FFVII charts:

OG (Ultimania Omega)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...lFantasyVIIUltimaniaOmega0218_zps06e1f803.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...lFantasyVIIUltimaniaOmega0219_zpscba108ad.jpg

OG (10th Anniversary Ultimania)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img109.jpg

OG (20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffviicharacterchart.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffvii001.jpg

OG (25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/25thviichart_zpsf310b60f.jpg

Advent Children (10th Anniversary Ultimania)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img121.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img121dos.jpg

Dirge of Cerberus (10th Anniversary Ultimania)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img133.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img133dos.jpg

Before Crisis (10th Anniversary Ultimania)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/bcchart_zps43d49a53.jpg

Last Order (10th Anniversary Ultimania)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/lochart_zpsc516fc2c.jpg

Crisis Core (10th Anniversary Ultimania)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ccchart_zpsaba1bcbb.jpg


Points of interest:
-No one "favors" anybody else if we're going by the 10th AU charts; even the charts for BC, LO and CC don't mention that Cloud and Tifa were interested in one another as teenagers; they're still just "childhood friends"
-Apparently, Cloud had "a sense of guilt" only for Aerith in Advent Children; not Zack too, despite more than one official statement saying otherwise; nope, Zack is just his "one-time best friend"
-Cloud's feelings for Aerith circa Advent Children are the same as Lucrecia's feelings for Vincent's dad; looks like we've got an even messier love triangle on our hands
-Cloud and Tifa have no relationship of any sort by the time Dirge rolls around, even though we've been told they're still living together at that time


The charts mean shit.

 

[Octo]

The 20th Anniversary Ultimania seems to omit Tsengs crush on Aerith? But other crushes are still there?

Ok I guess I'm being biased now that it actually effects a character I care about but yeah, the charts are very inconsistent. :/

 

[BlankBeat]

To dismiss the FTOIL page is pretty pathetic too, imho. FTOIL page prove a hell of a lot of things and you seem to be dismissing it a lot because it doesn't support Clerith.

I believe the FTOIL page canonizes the HAHW scene. I believe the HAHW scene means Cloud and Tifa express *mutual* feelings of romance.

However, mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship. That has been my point all along.

I also agree that Cloud and Tifa's romantic confession is similar (but not identical) to confessions that other canon couples have. But other canon couples also have indisputable evidence of being in a *romantic* relationship. Cloud and Tifa have the first part, but not the second part.

Cloud and Tifa confess mutual romantic feelings, but they have no kiss, no marriage, no "I love you", no "will you be my girlfriend", no sleeping in the same room, no romantic moment, etc. We have no physical proof or dialogue that moves them officially into a *romantic* relationship after the HAHW scene.

Furthermore, the Cloud x Aerith date is canon. By Cloud agreeing to go on a date with Aerith after telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, proves he has mutual feelings of romance for her. This is further supported by SE calling Cloud Aerith's "koibito" (meaning *mutual* romance). We are also told (although there is a translation disagreement) that Cloud and Aerith's date seems to have been *magical*. Therefore, this *magical* date that Cloud goes on with Aerith after telling Marlene he hopes she likes him is equivalent to the HAHW scene in terms of showing Cloud's *mutual* feelings.

Therefore:
HAHW scene is canon + C/A date is canon + SE has used "koibito" for both couples = it is up to us to decide who Cloud loves.

We can argue that Cloud has *love* for both Aerith and Tifa. But there is no *canon* proof that he was/is in a *romantic* relationship with either of them. The relationship chart confirms that there is no *canon* couple according to SE.

And I just want to reiterate what I've said before in-case you missed it:

It's not that it is impossible for Cloud and Tifa to be described as "childhood friends" but then at the same time be *more* than childhood friends.

What I think is problematic is that the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania doesn't include an all encompassing chart. If Cloud and Tifa were described as "childhood friends" in an all encompassing chart, that would be one thing. But what I'm pointing out is that because the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania included TWO charts specifically to show how the relationships changed between FFVII and AC, the fact that there is a lack of EVOLUTION and CHANGE in the way SE describes Cloud and Tifa's relationship tells me that they did not change or evolve between the two time periods.

So I'm not saying that being described as childhood friends means they can't be more than childhood friends. But when there's two charts specifically meant to highlight changes in relationships, and then these two charts do not indicate any change in Cloud and Tifa's relationship between FFVII and AC (and actually use the exact same relationship that describes them as "childhood friends" in both charts), I believe that is problematic and tells us that no evolution from friends to lovers took place between them on a *canon basis.

This is further highlighted by Nomura not knowing the status of their relationship for the two years after FFVII ends, Cloud having his own room with his own bed, Tifa not knowing if Cloud loves her, and Barret being Marlene's *only* Father.

Also, please admit you don't have an answer for any of these questions:

Cid x Shera don't get married until *after* FFVII. Was their chart talking about FFVII only, or the FFVII compilation? Please defend your argument.

Lulu x Wakka don't get married until *after* FFX. Was their chart talking about FFX only, or the FFX compilation? Please defend your argument.

Are Cid x Shera and Lulu x Wakka the exception or the rule? Please defend your argument.

Also -- you provide no explanation for why SE described Cloud and Tifa as "childhood friends" in both the FFVII chart and the AC chart. Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of including two charts? If their relationship had evolved from FFVII to AC, why are they described as "childhood friends" in both?

 

[BlankBeat]

Points of interest:
-No one "favors" anybody else if we're going by the 10th AU charts; even the charts for BC, LO and CC don't mention that Cloud and Tifa were interested in one another as teenagers; they're still just "childhood friends"
-Apparently, Cloud had "a sense of guilt" only for Aerith in Advent Children; not Zack too, despite more than one official statement saying otherwise; nope, Zack is just his "one-time best friend"
-Cloud's feelings for Aerith circa Advent Children are the same as Lucrecia's feelings for Vincent's dad; looks like we've got an even messier love triangle on our hands
-Cloud and Tifa have no relationship of any sort by the time Dirge rolls around, even though we've been told they're still living together at that time


The charts mean shit.

I don't dispute that the charts may be inconsistent.

But that's not the point.

The point is that when given the opportunity to show how Cloud and Tifa's relationship specifically changed between FFVII and AC, they used the exact same description -- "childhood friends".

There's simply no explanation other than the fact that their relationship did evolve from friends to lovers between FFVII and AC.

Pointing out inconsistencies is not going to get rid of the fact that when given the opportunity, SE described Cloud and Tifa's relationship the exact same way for both FFVII and AC. So please, keep pointing out all the inconsistencies between the charts. That is completely irrelevant to my point.