The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[eleamaya]

My original post included TWO quotes:
"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Here is the FULL version of my second quote:

"As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, pg. 58, Reunion Files

If you read the full version of my second quote, it says these three things:

"As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life.

One of the first ideas for AC was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt.

For Cloud, NO ONE OTHER THAN AERITH CAN SOLVE THAT PROBLEM FOR HIM."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

And another one of AC's idea according to Reunion Files is about Cloud, Tifa, and the children.
And in the ending, Cloud no longer blame himself anymore of Aerith's death. And it means Cloud could move on with his life. And he's back to his family where Tifa and the kids are there for him.

You're the one who cannot move on, BB.

[But, sorry, I dunno where I can find the complete Reunion translation but I remember I have read the quote about that. Anyone can help?]

 

[BlankBeat]

There you go twisting phrases to suit your bias again. He feels guilty because he feels responsible for the death of his friend, as has been explained to you numerous times. This is honestly like watching everyone bang their head against the wall. The undying feeling is guilt, get over it.

1. How can Cloud's guilt be "undying" if Aerith removed Cloud's guilt in AC? That is in direct contradiction to the word "undying".

2. You say Cloud feels responsible for the death of his "friend". Yet SE calls Cloud her koibito. Koibito means mutual romance. Why do you call her only a friend when SE disagrees with you?

That's nonsense. Cloud did not continue a relationship with Aerith in Advent Children, she simply popped up when she could to offer him guidance. He isn't searching for ways to connect with her either, he simply happens to be riding through a field of flowers. Where is your evidence that Cloud is actively seeking her? His motion at the end of the film is an appreciative farewell to her and Zack. He's never going to see either of them again. GOODBYE AERITH. ENJOY THE PEACE THAT COMES WITH DEATH. THANKS FOR EVERYTHING. I'LL BE HERE WITH TIFA AND OUR KIDS.

1. Cloud visits Aerith's Church often. Cloud even visited Aerith's Church before he was diagnosed with Geostigma, as evidenced by the fact that he found Denzel there before his diagnosis. This suggests Cloud is continuing some sort of relationship with Aerith by the simple fact that he is visiting her Church often.

2. These quotes show that Cloud and Aerith are able to continue on a spiritual relationship, similar to Vincent and Lucrecia. Please read them:

Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's Japanese voice actress): "She's presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film." ~Reunion Files, pg. 58

"Cloud feels an incredible sense of guilt for not being able to save her [Aerith], but sometimes he can still hear her voice in a soft whisper." (Reunion Files, Aerith's profile)

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files, pg. 58

Cloud: "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid: "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." ~Final Fantasy VII

Aerith also appeared in Cloud's dreams during Final Fantasy VII when she tells him about her plan to stop Sephiroth.

Vincent, Barret, Dyne, and Elmyra all chose to live with the memory of their loved ones instead of moving on. Maybe Cloud is no different -- especially after he realizes how incompatible him and Tifa are?

And in the same way that Yuna searches and finally finds a way to bring back Tidus in FFX-2, I believe Cloud is continuing to search for ways to continue connecting with Aerith.

Aerith can also interact with Cloud physically because she physically boosts Cloud during the battle with Bahamut-Sin. Here is the quote. Please read it:

"Cloud's friends sent him toward Bahamut like a relay race, and as for the last push---Aerith!" ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile

If Cloud and Aerith can interact both physically and spiritually, I see no reason to assume a relationship can't continue between them (especially when we consider that love beyond death is a theme SE has repeated with several FF couples).

I'd also like to point this out. It's an excerpt from an essay I was reading the other day:
"Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

So, what is important in this quote? Because there are CloTis who are quite comfortable accepting the fact that Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Sephiroth, but they refuse to accept that Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Aerith. Why? Because, if Cloud can see, hear, and interact with Aerith, despite the fact that she's dead, it makes their "Cloud can't be with Aerith because she's dead" argument null and void.

In the two novellas written by Nojima, Case of Lifestream: White and Case of Lifestream: Black, a glimpse into the Lifestream is given, showing how both Aerith (White) and Sephiroth (Black) influence the world. Sephiroth decides to form remnants of himself from negative Lifestream to do his will on the planet's surface. Aerith wonders if she can do the same, then decides against it, wishing to meet Cloud as he knew her. However, the fact remains- if Sephiroth can use negative Lifestream to manifest remnants of himself, Aerith should be able to use positive Lifestream to physically manifest herself.

If both Aerith and Sephiroth are capable of influencing the world, and they are both capable of talking to Cloud and being seen by Cloud, then why would anyone believe that Cloud is only capable of interacting with Sephiroth, and not Aerith? Clearly, Aerith can produce a physical manifestation, or she would not have been able to boost Cloud upward during his battle with Bahamut-Sin in AC/ACC. This is just one more reason why death means nothing to Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Cloud is fully capable of hearing Aerith, speaking to her, and even touching her. So, what's stopping them from being together?"

Makes a pretty good point, IMO.

3. It is not just simply a "flower field" that Cloud is riding through. Nomura specifically says that they filmed the ending credits in Hawaii and that the flowers shown in the credits are the same as the flowers in Aerith's Church. Nomura also says that flowers in general represent Aerith. Cloud and Aerith are also seen connecting through flower fields. Cloud rides his motorcycle through these same flower fields during the credits. If you can't connect all of those dots, I'm truly sorry.

Here are Nomura's quotes where he says that flowers in general and the flowers in the credits represent Aerith:

Nomura: "With Aerith, 'flowers' have been her image throughout the series."

Nomura, Reunion Files: “…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith’s church.”

You've twisted the quote again to suit your needs. He realises he's not alone anymore because he gets over his emo-boy issues and realises how precious everyone is to him. Those alive people he lives with. His family. You know, Tifa and the kids.

I'm literally reading SE's quote verbatim:
“The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…"

The quote doesn't say, "the people around him" are his Promised Land. The quote specifically says the "PLACE" where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church. Period.

Cloud's not alone anymore because he's found Aerith again. We know this because SE said that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's Church. Cloud said at the end of FFVII that he could find Aerith in the Promised Land. Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is.

I did explain to you that him talking about the church even without Tifa in it still does nothing to remove the fact that he's there because of his guilt.

Except Cloud's guilt can't be "undying" because it goes away after Aerith forgives him. Therefore, this "undying" feeling has to be something else. Given the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship as established by SE (Cloud is Aerith's "koibito"), and the fact that Cloud only feels guilty because he let someone he cares about die, could this "undying" feeling possibly be that of love...? I think so!

I made no attempt to pretend my one opinion about that being a spoiler was anything but an assumption. I do find it hilarious how much you've focussed on it being an assumption and speculation though, considering everything you've said thus far has been built on assumption and speculation. It would need to be, since Clerith isn't canon.

Tifa is not shown in the flower field during the trailer. Thus, the logical conclusion is that the scene did not exist at the time of the trailers release. Nomura is not referring to that scene with his "undying" comments.

And since Cloud's guilt can't be "undying," and since Nomura's comments are not referring to the scene where Cloud finds Tifa unconscious, this "undying" feeling has to be something other than guilt.

My theory based on Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith's bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, Cloud and Aerith sharing two canon dates (one of which ends *magically*, the intimate conversation at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction (SE words, not mine) from Cait Sith, SE's "koibito" quote, a hero that wavers between two heroines, and the cameo appearances between Cloud and Aerith (flower field ending in Dissidia, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the ending of Kingdom Hearts in unison with Nomura's quote), is that his undying feeling might be that of love.

That Cloud's undying feeling is guilt is not "the Cloti interpretation of that quote", it is what canonically happens. It's not an opinion. I don't understand why you've repeated yourself here either. I've already explained that the Church is a metaphor for his depression and guilt at the death of Aerith, this is reinforced later when he finds Tifa's body there. Before that, the church is ALREADY a metaphor for his guilt and depression, which is why Nomura's "undying" quote refers to this regardless of Tifa being there. And this is the second time I'm explaining this in response to you repeating yourself. Again. Stop that. Cloud finding Tifa is irrelevant. The church symbolises his guilt, not Tifa being there.

YOU are putting words in SE's mouth. When do they say the Church is a metaphor for his guilt and depression?

What's funny is that you make all of these assumptions about what Aerith's Church means metaphorically, but when I provide you with a quote from SE that SPECIFICALLY says Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land, you say I'm twisting their words? WTF...???

I like the way you started here. It's almost nice. Then of course, more nonsense happens. As has been covered, there is a mountain of evidence for Cloti and baseless reaching symbolism only being used as evidence for Clerith. The two don't carry the same weight, and Cloti is canon. I don't believe that because I've been here for a long time, this is not a Cloti site as some would have you believe. This is a site dedicated to being the all-encompassing source of Final Fantasy VII information and exclusive fan works. The people here are passionate about the game and the Compilation and know the source material inside and out. The fact that most of its members know objectively that Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship should be telling. And for the record, I knew Cloti was canon before I even knew The Lifestream existed.

The Lifestream honestly has a horrible reputation. But sometimes when you are in the bubble, you don't see how you look on the outside.

--------------------

And another one of AC's idea according to Reunion Files is about Cloud, Tifa, and the children.
And in the ending, Cloud no longer blame himself anymore of Aerith's death. And it means Cloud could move on with his life. And he's back to his family where Tifa and the kids are there for him.

You're the one who cannot move on, BB.

[But, sorry, I dunno where I can find the complete Reunion translation but I remember I have read the quote about that. Anyone can help?]

You brought up the fact that Cloud seeks Zack's forgiveness and were attempting to make it seem as though Cloud's feelings towards Zack are equal to his feelings toward Aerith.

However, Nojima specifically stated that the first idea they had for AC was to have Cloud, "overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt." Nojima then says that, "For Cloud, NO ONE OTHER THAN AERITH CAN SOLVE THAT PROBLEM FOR HIM."

This means Aerith is the only person that can help Cloud overcome and resolve his immense feelings of guilt.

Here is the quote again. Please read it:
"One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him." ~Nojima, pg. 58, Reunion Files

 

[Lex]

I don't have the patience to repeat myself over and over again BlankBeat. Everything you've said in that post has been disproven numerous times.

I have never seen a person claim that Cloud could not physically interact with Aerith in ACC. What is certainly true is that she can't walk and talk the same as people who are now living. You can't compare her to Sephiroth because Sephiroth has Jenova cells and clung to a physical form because he's an absolute beast of a person. At the end of ACC Aerith is finally able to accept death and move on. She is dead. I don't even like using that as an argument because it feels cheap, but it's just a sad fact. She is dead as a doornail and she's not coming back. She above anyone else would not fight against the natural order of things to stay even if romance was on the cards (which it's not, because he's in a romantic relationship with Tifa).

Tifa is not shown in the flower field during the trailer. Thus, the logical conclusion is that the scene did not exist at the time of the trailers release. Nomura is not referring to that scene with his "undying" comments.

Are you being serious. ARE YOU FOR REAL. SERIOUSLY. HOW MANY TIMES. Refer to my previous post. And the one before that. They both explain to you that the undying guilt is in reference to Aerith and that the church is a symbol of that guilt. IT HAS FUCK ALL TO DO WITH TIFA AND THIS IS THE THIRD TIME IM TELLING YOU THAT.

I get it now. I understand why people get horrible in this debate. Dishonest people like you make everyone righteously furious. Go play the game again, seriously. All of them. And while you're at it re-watch advent children. Only this time take off your clerith goggles and pay attention to the actual dialogue.

EDIT:

The Lifestream honestly has a horrible reputation.

Among people who refuse to acknowledge canonicity. I stand by my point last week also that you might enjoy the place outside the LTD, but it's the only thing you seem to be interested in. It's a tiny part of the board that has little to do with the actual site and its overall goals.

 

[BlankBeat]

Are you being serious. ARE YOU FOR REAL. SERIOUSLY. HOW MANY TIMES. Refer to my previous post. And the one before that. They both explain to you that the undying guilt is in reference to Aerith and that the church is a symbol of that guilt. IT HAS FUCK ALL TO DO WITH TIFA AND THIS IS THE THIRD TIME IM TELLING YOU THAT.

1. Undying guilt is an oxymoron in Cloud's case because his guilt is removed by Aerith in AC.

2. SE calls Aerith's Church Cloud's Promised Land, not a metaphor for guilt and depression. What's funny is that you make all of these assumptions about what Aerith's Church means metaphorically, but when I provide you with a quote from SE that SPECIFICALLY says Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land, you say I'm full of it...?

Here is the quote again:
“The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…"

The quote doesn't say, "the people around him" are his Promised Land. The quote specifically says the "PLACE" where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church. Period.

3. You never answered why you referred to Aerith as Cloud's friend even though SE says Cloud is her koibito and koibito means mutual romance.

4. You never answered why you said Cloud is simply "riding through a field of flowers" when Nomura specifically states that the flower fields Cloud is riding through are the same ones found in Aerith's Church and that flowers in general represent Aerith.

Also, the flower fields Cloud is riding through are the same flower fields him and Aerith connect through during AC. This reminds me of Yuna trying to bring Tidus back -- Cloud is continuing to search for ways to be with Aerith as evidenced by the credits of AC/C.

I get it now. I understand why people get horrible in this debate. Dishonest people like you make everyone righteously furious. Go play the game again, seriously. All of them. And while you're at it re-watch advent children. Only this time take off your clerith goggles and pay attention to the actual dialogue.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[eleamaya]

You brought up the fact that Cloud seeks Zack's forgiveness and were attempting to make it seem as though Cloud's feelings towards Zack are equal to his feelings toward Aerith.

However, Nojima specifically stated that the first idea they had for AC was to have Cloud, "overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt." Nojima then says that, "For Cloud, NO ONE OTHER THAN AERITH CAN SOLVE THAT PROBLEM FOR HIM."

This means Aerith is the only person that can help Cloud overcome and resolve his immense feelings of guilt.

Here is the quote again. Please read it:
"One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him." ~Nojima, pg. 58, Reunion Files

Because ACC is revised edition of AC and the actual quote is both Zack and Aerith's death are two unforgivable sins in his heart. And it's explained by the added scenes.

No wrong about the first idea. Even the first idea of Original game is Sephiroth is Aerith's brother then move to her boyfriend then Zack get this role. It's the same as the idea that Aerith is the only one love interest for Cloud but then they create Tifa for the role to be with him for the rest of his life. Anything could be revised by the creator themselves.

Just add my interpretation based on official quotes:
Cloud's sins are two: Zack and Aerith's death.
Cloud's guilt are three (symbolized by the wolf shown in Zack's grave, Forgotten Capital, and the church): And they are about he failed promises.

• Promise to Zack is to be his living legacy/the proof of his existed and Cloud forgot him at all in beginning of OG.
• Promise to Aerith is to be her bodyguard and what he must protect was killed when he was stand so close to her.
• Promise to Tifa is saving her when she get a pinch and he late when he found her get hurt in church.

Different guilts are different way to be forgiven, too. And yes, Aerith's death is both sin and guilt. I know why she is the symbol of his failure of all. But still, it doesn't mean romance to me. Normal audience who dont give a damn about pairing seeing AC is about Cloud overcome those all. You always say about interpretation, right?

 

[Lex]

Why are you repeating yourself again when every "point" you've made has already been debunked numerous times? Do you think people will forget and think you're right by default or something? I don't get it. Your points have been disproven well before me. I don't know why you keep attempting to bring them up like it's new information.

I'm going to indulge you one last time purely because I don't want you to think I don't have an answer - after that I'm not doing the whole "quote a snippet, respond" to your tl;dr copypasta nonsense posts because I simply don't have the time to spend typing up these huge responses to someone who will not see reason. I'm going back to spectator mode unless I have something important to say, or you attempt to lie again and someone else doesn't catch it.

1. Undying guilt is an oxymoron in Cloud's case because his guilt is removed by Aerith in AC.

This is bullshit again. As has already been explained, his undying guilt refers to the guilt that WON'T GO AWAY. Then it does. His undying guilt is cured by the end of the movie. I told you this already myself and so did Tres about 5 pages ago. Stop harping on about that when it's already been debated out. You can't make a point when it's been put in the shredder at least twice already.

2. SE calls Aerith's Church Cloud's Promised Land, not a metaphor for guilt and depression. What's funny is that you make all of these assumptions about what Aerith's Church means metaphorically, but when I provide you with a quote from SE that SPECIFICALLY says Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land, you say I'm full of it...?

Here is the quote again:
“The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…"

The quote doesn't say, "the people around him" are his Promised Land. The quote specifically says the "PLACE" where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church. Period.

Yet again I find myself repeating myself. On this particular point it's a third time. Do you just copy/paste your own posts and re-word them slightly every time? Are you a bot? I don't get it. The place where he awakens is his promised land. Where does he awaken? In a pool of water in the church that heals the wounds of those with geostigma. Who's there? Everyone he loves.

3. You never answered why you referred to Aerith as Cloud's friend even though SE says Cloud is her koibito and koibito means mutual romance.

Because she is his friend. She's not his girlfriend, so I don't know why you want me to say that. And you're embellishing what that means again.

4. You never answered why you said Cloud is simply "riding through a field of flowers" when Nomura specifically states that these flower fields Cloud is riding through are the same ones found in Aerith's Church and that flowers in general represent Aerith.

Because he's riding through a field of flowers. Again, I don't know what you want me to say here. Is Cloud riding through a field of flowers? Yes. There is no gif that facepalms hard enough.

And look, like I said the whole Tidus/Yuna parallel is good for fanfiction. But the same thing can not and will not happen with Cloud and Aerith. You're forgetting what Tidus was to begin with - a dream of the fayth. He didn't even really *die*. Aerith was stabbed in the chest, bled to death and then floated around as a spirit for a bit to make sure everything was fixed. I'm afraid she really is now well and truly gone.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Pissed off/empassioned/stirred up Scots in da house!?

Anyway Clerith is an official pairing known of, endorsed/sanctioned and capatalised upon by Square Enix, it doesn't belong in the same group as fanon pairings like Squall X Quistis or Zidane x Beatrix or Tidus x Rikku or Lightning x Snow or w/e and people know it.

 

[Lex]

Never anger the scottish. We do not have friendly angerfeisu

I know what I've written has probably come across really strong but genuinely, don't take anything to heart. We are talking about fictional pairings here. Though dishonest debaters do get on my nerves.

 

[Octo]

It's too bad that Clouds guilt is 'undying' because that's really going to fuck up his relationship with Aerith isn't it?

edit: lol didnt read properly. sleep deprivation. disregard.

 

[Carlie]

Just gonna address this:

The Lifestream honestly has a horrible reputation.

You haven't bothered posting in any other thread besides this one and I'm willing to bet that you haven't even looked at any other thread. Most of the members on this forum do not give a shit about the LTD at all, you're the one who's in dire need of getting out of that bubble. Most of us know very well in what circles TLS has a horrible reputation.

I'm gonna entertain your logic for a moment:

Do you not realize how badly you're portraying Cloud's character with your interpretation? Can you honestly tell me that what you see Cloud doing in your interpretation of looking of ways to be with a woman who's dead is in any way a healthy behavior for anyone? Let me tell you if a person who dislikes chocobo butt as much as I do has to point to this out to you you might want to start rethinking where your argument is going and you're the one claiming people are doing character assassination here.

Also Road has posted several more times in this thread? I must be in some parallel universe.

 

[Sikozu]

Here is the quote again:
“The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land…"

The quote doesn't say, "the people around him" are his Promised Land. The quote specifically says the "PLACE" where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church. Period.

Period? Noooooooo, dude. What do you think the rest of that quote is there, if not to clarify exactly why it is that the "place where he awakens" is Cloud's Promised Land? Yeah, it's about Aerith, but not just her. It's about some other folks and what's actually happening. And stuff.

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet

Why is this here? What do you think this is saying? What is it trying to explain if not why the Church is Cloud's Promised Land?

Well, he found his Promised Land, and that's where Aerith is.

No, it's the Church, where Aerith is not. xp

Also, if Cloud's Promised Land is where Aerith is, why does Aerith herself say Cloud doesn't belong where she does?

Oh, and sorry if you've gotten to this already, but how do you factor Zack's drastic change in ranking(second to dead last) in Cloud's list of cherished people from AC to ACC into your argument that Aerith being mentioned first/more means Cloud cares for her the most?

 

[Strangelove]

i saw a lot of stuff that has already been debunked and stopped reading

also stuff i did (that promised land thing) being banded around while other comments are disregarded

 

[Octo]

TLS is such a nest of biased cloti vipers, thats why debating the LTD is forbidden, as are any CXA sigs, avatars and banners, and why anyone doubting CXT/supporting CXA (or even ZxA for that matter) is warned or banned. TLS doesnt even have a CXA fanclub.

TLS doesn't even have any useful information for FFVII fans outside of Cloti stuff, there's no exclusive translations of novellas or painstaking deconstructions of the game itself, including unused scenes and text that nobody knew existed until recently. Nothing that would reinvigorate interest in a 15 year old game. None of that at all. No sireee bob. Its just cloti cloti clito cloti.

Yep TLS really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. It's disgusting really when you think about it.

 

[Cookie Monster]

My original post included TWO quotes:
"The incredible guilt Cloud feels because of what happened to Aerith can only be lifted by forgiveness from Aerith herself." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

"For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, Reunion Files

Here is the FULL version of my second quote:

"As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side - in spirit at least." ~Nojima, pg. 58, Reunion Files

If you read the full version of my second quote, it says these three things:

"As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith's death, he won't be able to move on with his life.

One of the first ideas for AC was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt.

For Cloud, NO ONE OTHER THAN AERITH CAN SOLVE THAT PROBLEM FOR HIM."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

And, that is all in reference to his guilt over Aerith my man. It has nothing to do with his issues related to Zack.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Even TLS has the worst people in the internet it wouldn't change the Japanese text and their true meaning ^^.

It's fun to see some circular arguments:

Cloud loves Aerith because he would never forget her, it's romantic because "she's engraved in his heart"
Aerith is someone that Cloud would never forget because he loves her, making the phrase romantic




And geez, exchange of mutual romantic feelings doesn't matter because apparently there is no proof that the relationship comes after? Using that logic

Squinoa doesn't have proof that the relationship continued past that kiss
ZidanexGarnet doesn't have proof that the relationship continued past that hug

 

[I Am Not Me]

Late, but I really hate it when people downplay Zack's impact on and importance to Cloud.

Here's something to think about.

After Cloud meets Aerith and has their back to back scene together, what happens after?

Cloud getting owned by the Sephy-larvae and having to be saved by Vincent.

What about after he meets Zack and has their back to back scene together?

Cloud wins against Sephiroth. Let's also keep in mind how Cloud was being owned prior to Zack's appearance. They even made a point to update Advent Children to show how much it sucked to be Cloud during his battle with Sephiroth.

So, with this, what does this say about the Aerith vs Zack argument? I mean, if Cloud really loved Aerith so much, why did he get so de-powered after talking to her? He finally got to see her after yearning for her for so many years, but he loses a fight after talking to her. Shouldn't he be recharged that Aerith was there to solve all his problems? Shouldn't he be stronger?

Zack, on the other hand...

He must really love Zack a lot. Winning against Sephiroth with a great finisher and all.






Yeah, so let's just stop downplaying Zack, shall we? Thanks.

Especially when you take so much out of context.

 

[null]

It's all these non-shippers who think Cloud had feelings for both women that really give this place a bad name.

Not to mention all you dishonest Cloti-payrolled translators who explain why "she [Aerith] entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her heart. She entrusted them to the one that was going to "live" together with Cloud..." is not actually what the Japanese text says.

 

[Master Bates]

Violence is almost never the answer.

Of course. Violence is never the answer.

Violence is the question. Yes is the answer.

TLS is such a nest of biased cloti vipers, thats why debating the LTD is forbidden, as are any CXA sigs, avatars and banners, and why anyone doubting CXT/supporting CXA (or even ZxA for that matter) is warned or banned. TLS doesnt even have a CXA fanclub.

TLS doesn't even have any useful information for FFVII fans outside of Cloti stuff, there's no exclusive translations of novellas or painstaking deconstructions of the game itself, including unused scenes and text that nobody knew existed until recently. Nothing that would reinvigorate interest in a 15 year old game. None of that at all. No sireee bob. Its just cloti cloti clito cloti.

Yep TLS really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. It's disgusting really when you think about it.

Shit! I was honestly about to post something like this.

Spoiler: Seriously, TLS has got to be a Cloti den because it has smileys like these

:cloti:
:clerith:

Reading this thread somehow reminds me of meatspin. And it makes my brain go down in the gutter.




P.S.: Game over, gaiz. Matching desserts.

 

[jazzflower92]

I say if one likes Clerith then just happily appreciate it in a fanon sense instead of trying to make it seem like it canon.As a AeriSeph shipper I know its never going to be canon and was almost going to happen but didn't but still ship them for fun.Its obvious that Cloud and Tifa are the official couple and nothing is going to change about it.Sometimes people think of romance and only see the soft side of it but forget that a relationship involves sometimes arguments and turmoil.Relationships become stronger when both parties learn to overcome those problems and grow as people.Cloud needed to overcome his issues of guilt so his relationship with Tifa and the kids could be repaired plus he move on in his life so he can find happiness.Clinging to those hurtful memories only drove him away from them and Aerith probably herself would not like having them suffer because of her.

 

[Kittie]

I say if one likes Clerith then just happily appreciate it in a fanon sense instead of trying to make it seem like it canon.As a AeriSeph shipper I know its never going to be canon and was almost going to happen but didn't but still ship them for fun.Its obvious that Cloud and Tifa are the official couple and nothing is going to change about it.Sometimes people think of romance and only see the soft side of it but forget that a relationship involves sometimes arguments and turmoil.Relationships become stronger when both parties learn to overcome those problems and grow as people.Cloud needed to overcome his issues of guilt so his relationship with Tifa and the kids could be repaired plus he move on in his life so he can find happiness.Clinging to those hurtful memories only drove him away from them and Aerith probably herself would not like having them suffer because of her.

^ This. I confess I also have a soft spot for AeriSeph , too, and it doesn't hurt me that such isn't canon, even though I'm beyond elated that such was once taken into consideration before that Zack fellow came into the picture.

Taking a step back from shipping, however, Cloud and Tifa just make sense, as far as the Compilation goes. If one were to take the creators' comments, the novellas, and the Compilation itself into account, then it's glaringly obvious that they're in some kind of a relationship. That's my take on it, without shipping goggles.

Regarding merchandise, much of it is fanservice, while the other part is SE milking everything FF-related. Let's keep in mind that SE is also a business. The company likes to make money. Plain and simple. Merchandise-wise, the Cloud and Aerith desserts are undeniably cute. I wouldn't mind indulging in both desserts, honestly. There are also Seventh Heaven napkins, which by extension, represents Tifa. Undoubtedly those are served with Cloud's dessert, as well as Aerith's dessert. So, if a person is going by that stance to prove canon, then we have Cloti and Aerti!

Actually, now that I think about it, those napkins are probably also served with all of the Materia and Summon drinks. Tifa apparently has a lot of love to go around, even with chocobo and moogle-themed pancakes. No wonder her surname has "heart" in it. I'm just saying.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I have found three YouTube videos from the Tokyo Game Show that everyone says Nomura is referring to with his "undying" quote.

Here are three links to the trailers that were shown at the TGS in 2003:
Day 1
Day 1
Day 2

So, you found those? You didn't just get them from my post a few pages back?:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=505184&postcount=5034

This is what the interior of the Church looks like from above in the trailer:

Tifa's unconscious body SHOULD be lying in the flowers if this is the scene where Cloud finds Tifa. But, Tifa's body isn't there. Cloud is the only person shown in the trailer.

Let me remind you that the film came out in 2005. The trailers were shown in 2003. Because Tifa's body is not seen from above, and because we never see Cloud finding her body in the trailer, odds are good that this scene had not been created yet.

Since Nomura is explicitly talking about the trailer, and since no one had seen the final movie yet, it is illogical to think he is talking about Cloud finding Tifa's body. Why would Nomura be referring to a moment that no one had seen yet and a moment that wasn't in the trailer?

In all honesty, when Nomura made his comments, the final scene probably had not been created yet. However, his comments are directed at the scene as it appears in the trailer. All we see in the trailer is Cloud walking in Aerith's Church. That's it.

At the time Nomura made his comments, he knew that people had only seen the trailer. Therefore, he is applying his comments to what everyone saw in the trailer. All we saw in the trailer was Cloud walking in Aerith's Church. We had no knowledge of what transpired in the final film. And in all probability, that is probably all Nomura knew of the scene when he made his comments (considering we don't see Tifa's body laying in the flower field from above and because the trailer came out in 2003 and the film came out in 2005)

Therefore, all we saw in the trailer was Cloud continuing to visit Aerith's Church after her death. This suggests to us that his undying feeling for her is "love," since his feelings for her are different than that of her comrades. In addition, Cloud's feelings of love are "undying" because he is shown visiting her Church after her death. This implies that even after Aerith's death, Cloud is still carrying an undying love for her because he is seen visiting her Church.

So, all we see is Cloud in the church? Doing what? Saying what? "I want to be forgiven." In all three trailers, he is saying "I want to be forgiven" in that scene.

Which, again, was in my post from a few days ago.

Very selectice the things you highlight and the things you don't.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I never said violence is never the answer. I said violence is almost never the answer. Sometimes violence is very much the answer. Cloud's problem with depression is not one of them, as scolding worked just fine.

 

[Strangelove]

i think square were trying to tell people (read: stupid thick headed clotis) that they intended zack/tifa to be their other intended couple and that is why they are both in a matching school uniform set in that brigade game

they are trying to say that everyone who said tifa didn't love cloud and only wanted a big strong solider like zack were right all along

plus it continues the long tradition of love beyond death (but where there is no contact between the two of them)

 

[JayM]

And another one of AC's idea according to Reunion Files is about Cloud, Tifa, and the children.
...
[But, sorry, I dunno where I can find the complete Reunion translation but I remember I have read the quote about that. Anyone can help?]

Didn't see anyone answer this yet (recently, anyway; I'm sure it's come up in the thread before) so here's from p.67 of the Reunion Files:

Japanese: 当初、野島氏が書いたプロットは「クラウドとティファと子供達が出てくる程度の話」で「あまり動きのない話（野村）」だったという。

Official translation: Nomura says the initial script by Nojima was "just a story about Cloud and Tifa and the kids" and that "it didn't have much action."

Also on p.70, still discussing the development:

Japanese: 僕の中では、とりあえずクラウドとティファは一緒にいるんだろうな、と思ってました。

Official translation: [Nojima explains] "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together."

 

[I Am Not Me]

Didn't see anyone answer this yet (recently, anyway; I'm sure it's come up in the thread before) so here's from p.67 of the Reunion Files:

Japanese: 当初、野島氏が書いたプロットは「クラウドとティファと子供達が出てくる程度の話」で「あまり動きのない話（野村）」だったという。

Official translation: Nomura says the initial script by Nojima was "just a story about Cloud and Tifa and the kids" and that "it didn't have much action."

Also on p.70, still discussing the development:

Japanese: 僕の中では、とりあえずクラウドとティファは一緒にいるんだろうな、と思ってました。

Official translation: [Nojima explains] "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together."

inb4 "together" means location.