The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

I'm not super clear on CoL's koibito.

Aerith calls Cloud her koibito but when she said it, does she know Cloud any better than when she died? We know that in Maiden Aerith "meets" the real Cloud, but does Nojima's novella tell us whether Aerith ever got her head right where Zack and Cloud are concerned?

I think someone had posted about that in this thread a while ago, but how did Aerith find out about Cloud? I guess she could still love him without knowing him, but the thought of her still loving ZaCloud doesn't seem like something Cleriths should be happy about.

There's the part in CoLW 1, where Aerith uses the word koibito to describe what Cloud is to her. And it's later, in Part 11 that she absorbs people she's known, with their memories. Zack was one of them, and she absorbs his memories.

Would Aerith have had any other way of knowing the real Cloud outside of learning something about the mix-up from Zack? And what would she get from that, if it would work that way?

Sorry, you guys. I know this post is a little bit ramble, I just thought that it'd be worth looking at.

What do you guys think about it?

EDIT - May be overthinking, huh? x_x

I do think Aerith accepted that Cloud was going to spend his life with Tifa, and then gives them her blessing. That's probably why she shows up like a "mother-figure" to Cloud later.

And it would be pretty bitchy by Aerith to just ignore that fact that Zack died on his way to Midgar, so he could meet her. He isn't just a "Ladies man". Do you think she realized that?

Anywho... did she realize that she was in love with the Z!Cloud? Didn't she?
I can't remember... really.

Yous all make a plaything of mah thread title.

And post too much. You're scaring me Tennyo away.

Quexinos said:

Also I still don't get how they healed each other while unconscious. I know it's been stated they do but... how they do it is beyond me.

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I'm disappointed that no one mentioned "Sexual Healing". And you call yourselves rapid Clotis.

Re: "Aerith lives inside Cloud"

I don't care if the subject is past already.

Since I went and looked it up, you're going to have to suffer my research



Transcript of that part (cleaned up with most of the non-fluency features removed), with the English subtitles (British DVD) and comments on any minor differences in square brackets:

死んでも意識というものがいつまでも残っている
Even if they're dead, their consciousness is still with use [remains forever].

クラウドがACの本編中に何度もエアリスの姿を見ているんですけど、その意識を、死んだ人の命を感じているから見えているというか
As for Cloud, he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It's not that sees her because he feels her presence.

そこにその意識があると言うよりは、生きている人の中にその意識があるからそこに見えているというか。
He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.

生きている = is living
人 = person(s)
生きている人 = person who is living

Unless "person who is living" is Nomura's epithet for Cloud, yar, it be not what he literally says. Of course it would include Cloud, but not as the 'they're super special' way people have made it out to be.

Nojima's section afterwards-- don't know about anywhere else-- doesn't carry on this idea so much, so I don't know where people get the "Nojima talks about his grandmother living in his son" thing from except perhaps a mistake and mixing up their two statements. Nojima just talks about his grandmother dying and then his child been born, and his own bloodline living on in history.

The subtitles here seem to have mistaken 輪廻 (cycle) for 人間 (human), though 'Cycle' kind of making more sense which what he goes on to say, about life going away and new ones appearing, and this word refers to the transmigration of souls or Samsara in Buddhism.

Re: that Reunion Files thing

http://gallery.digik.net/view/25668
自然回復 = natural recovery

http://gallery.digik.net/view/25680
ダメージが癒される = damage is healed

The passive one could mean someone else healed them, but it doesn't state an agent of the action so yar, it be vague.

Also, I think rather than "there's foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith will appear", saying that the church [itself] is foreshadowing that Aerith will appear later might be more accurate. Not related to this, just something I noticed

Raquelborn said:

(I left out that this was a quote in reference to a video game character)

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It's always the best thing to do

McChanny said:

This is the main thing I don't get about the koibito thing. The argument is that she refers to Cloud as her koibito and its not the creators saying it... but the creators WROTE CoL did they not? So they obviously out it there for a reason.

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Is it the creators, or is it a character/narrator created by one of them?

Nojima did write Lifestream White, but it's not Nojima himself speaking. It's a narrator separate from him, and sometimes narrators can be unreliable. Whether or not that's the case here would depend on your reading of it, I guess. Despite having a more detached feel ("the woman" instead of "Aerith"), it's still limited to her POV. We don't know anything she doesn't know (like Sephiroth's plans), so maybe her feelings do affect it as well.

I don't really care either way if it means Cloud loved her during FFVII or not. I don't see what the problem is with having characters love more than one person. But I still think it's too strong a word for what was shown in FFVII, though.

I don't have a problem with people loving more than one person. That's realistic.

But I can't say that the thought of Aerith loving ZaCloud doesn't put me off a little. Even though I guess it's realistic too? People fall in love with people they don't know well irl.

I think it adds more depth that was than "and they met and got to know each other perfectly and it was true love ever after."

I thought CoT was more interesting for having negative elements than it would have been for just an endless succession of "I love you, Cloud" "I love you, Tifa" "No, I love you, Cloud" "No, I..."

I'm sorry I have nothing to really contribute right now except A++ on the current thread title.

wait wait wait, i do:

I accept that Aerith views/viewed Cloud as a koibito, but that doesn't stop me from feeling somewhat irksome everytime I think about it. I also know it doesn't say she loves him 'more' than Zack, but that doesn't stop me from being somewhat 'bad' towards the later.

He deserves better for all he did.

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I don't understand this "deserve" thing, really. Feelings get complicated and change. Simply because Aeris is ready to move on and be happy with her life rather than slitting her wrists over his grave and mourning forever doesn't mean she's disrespecting his memory.

No, it doesn't. I think that Aerith wanted to be ready to move on(that's what the "I want to meet you" line she said to Cloud told me).

She didn't know Cloud. And it's more complicated than it would be since Cloud reminds her so much of Zack, and even though she wants to reconcile it and pursue Cloud, she dies and we never get to see what could have happened with them.

So I guess in CoL she feels for Cloud like before she died, but she never got to move on. She got to decide that she wanted to.

I've been through this "she didn't know Cloud" business enough times to make my head spin, but I'll say it once again. If they truly didn't know each other at all, as you claim, then there's no reason for them to give a shit about each other even as friends and no reason for Cloud to be so torn up over failing someone who he didn't even know.

No she did not know Cloud entirely since he was not whole when she was alive, but there was some aspect of the "real" him that she saw and connected with.

Zee said:

I don't understand this "deserve" thing, really. Feelings get complicated and change. Simply because Aeris is ready to move on and be happy with her life rather than slitting her wrists over his grave and mourning forever doesn't mean she's disrespecting his memory.

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I never said there was something wrong with moving on. It's completely acceptable. But I never got the sense of her 'moving on' from him. Sure, she wanted to, but her actions say that she still had not done so. Which is why I get this weird feeling from the koibito thing. That doesn't change the fact that its there.
By deserving I meant the whole 'she loves him more than her first love even she barely got to know the guy' talk, which wasn't even in CoL. I was just making a reference.

Rinali said:

No, it doesn't. I think that Aerith wanted to be ready to move on(that's what the "I want to meet you" line she said to Cloud told me).

She didn't know Cloud. And it's more complicated than it would be since Cloud reminds her so much of Zack, and even though she wants to reconcile it and pursue Cloud, she dies and we never get to see what could have happened with them.

So I guess in CoL she feels for Cloud like before she died, but she never got to move on. She got to decide that she wanted to.

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This.

Zee said:

I've been through this "she didn't know Cloud" business enough times to make my head spin, but I'll say it once again. If they truly didn't know each other at all, as you claim, then there's no reason for them to give a shit about each other even as friends and no reason for Cloud to be so torn up over failing someone who he didn't even know.

No she did not know Cloud entirely since he was not whole when she was alive, but there was some aspect of the "real" him that she saw and connected with.

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Did I claim that they knew zip/nothing/nada about each other? No.

It's not a fact that SE said that the reason why Aerith acts the way she does in VII is because of her feelings for Zack? She wasn't over the guy. Cloud reminded her very much of him. There are parallels drawn by SE in-game to show that Aerith is affected strongly by Cloud right off because of her feelings for Zack.

It's not until the date scene that Aerith has reflected on this and tells Cloud that although she's seen Zack again in him, that she wants to move beyond that and get to know the real Cloud.

Does she? No. I'm just following the game. I think you're oversimplifying it a little bit.

Zee said:

I've been through this "she didn't know Cloud" business enough times to make my head spin, but I'll say it once again. If they truly didn't know each other at all, as you claim, then there's no reason for them to give a shit about each other even as friends and no reason for Cloud to be so torn up over failing someone who he didn't even know.

No she did not know Cloud entirely since he was not whole when she was alive, but there was some aspect of the "real" him that she saw and connected with.

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People don't have to know the ins and outs of each others souls or even know each other for very long to care about each other. Aerith not getting to know Cloud on the level everyone claims she did diminishes nothing of the guilt/sense of loss/etc.

Cloud still cared about her, and he still let her die after taking on the role of her bodyguard. People don't have to have true love forever that transcends death in order for one to feel guilty over the others death.

Did I claim that they knew zip/nothing/nada about each other? No.

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"She didn't know Cloud."

Be moar specific then, plz.

It's not a fact that SE said that the reason why Aerith acts the way she does in VII is because of her feelings for Zack? She wasn't over the guy. Cloud reminded her very much of him. There are parallels drawn by SE in-game to show that Aerith is affected strongly by Cloud right off because of her feelings for Zack.

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And I'm not claiming any of this is untrue. :3

It's not until the date scene that Aerith has reflected on this and tells Cloud that although she's seen Zack again in him, that she wants to move beyond that and get to know the real Cloud.

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Actually, the date scene is where she first says any of this -- it seems like something she had been reflecting on for a while.

Cloud still cared about her, and he still let her die after taking on the role of her bodyguard. People don't have to have true love forever that transcends death in order for one to feel guilty over the others death.

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I'm not talking about tru wuv or any of that. It's just that in my experience when someone pulls out the "she didn't know Cloud" card, it's followed by, "Cloud wasn't himself on disk one, so everything nice he did for her was really Zack/Jenova/Tifa Crossdressing".

Zee said:

I've been through this "she didn't know Cloud" business enough times to make my head spin, but I'll say it once again. If they truly didn't know each other at all, as you claim, then there's no reason for them to give a shit about each other even as friends and no reason for Cloud to be so torn up over failing someone who he didn't even know.

No she did not know Cloud entirely since he was not whole when she was alive, but there was some aspect of the "real" him that she saw and connected with.

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I'm not sure now if this is actually related to anything, but I'm too tired to to put actual thought into it and said it anyway

Even if Cloud wasn't completely himself in the first half, that doesn't necessarily mean that anything he might have felt (including budding affections for Aerith) would suddenly disappear after he sorts his head out. Which seems to be how it gets treated sometimes, if they think he felt anything at all.

hitoshura said:

そこにその意識があると言うよりは、生きている人の中にその意識があるからそこに見えているというか。
He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.

生きている = is living
人 = person(s)
生きている人 = person who is living

Unless "person who is living" is Nomura's epithet for Cloud, yar, it be not what he literally says. Of course it would include Cloud, but not as the 'they're super special' way people have made it out to be.

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I forgot something here

Literally, he's not saying that there's any 'living' either. Perhaps they mistook the 'living people' bit or just wanted to reword it, but literally it's just "is inside living people".

Zee said:

"She didn't know Cloud."

Be moar specific then, plz.

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She didn't know "the real Cloud".

Zee said:

Actually, the date scene is where she first says any of this -- it seems like something she had been reflecting on for a while.

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That's what I meant. I didn't word it clearly enough. I meant that she had been reflecting on it, and she tells him the decision she came to on the date, which is that she'd like to meet Cloud, and know him as more than a man who reminds her of Zack.

hitoshura said:

クラウドがACの本編中に何度もエアリスの姿を見ているんですけど、その意識を、死んだ人の命を感じているから見えているというか
As for Cloud, he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It's not that sees her because he feels her presence.

そこにその意識があると言うよりは、生きている人の中にその意識があるからそこに見えているというか。
He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.

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Actually, I forgot even more stuff

What gets simplified to 'her presence' in the subtitles is the more complicated "[that/her] consciousness, [the] lives of the dead" (if you ignore the oxymoron there). The first 'that' sounds more specific, like it's calling back to the mention of Aerith (which is why I put her). But the second bit sounds more general to me.

But when he repeats it in the second line (as 'her consciousness' in the subtitles), I read (?) it as talking more about his second, general state. More 'those consciousnesses' than one single one.

Nomura makes a statement ("The consciousness is still with us"), back it up with an example (Aerith and Cloud), and closes by reiterating what he says as proved by his example.

This is the main thing I don't get about the koibito thing. The argument is that she refers to Cloud as her koibito and its not the creators saying it... but the creators WROTE CoL did they not? So they obviously out it there for a reason.

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Okay, let's say I'm writing a book. I create a character named Tom.

Once upon a time, Tom was walking along the street. A little stray kitty walked up to Tom and meowed. Tom pulled out a gun and shot the kitty in the face, because to Tom, all kitties were spawn of the devil. The End.

Pop quiz! Did Ravynne just state that all cats are indeed devil spawn?


Now about the RF saying that they "healed on their own." The full sentence is "They gradually heal on their own and are taken by Reno to the house." Isn't is possible that by "on their own" they meant it in the sense of "without needing assistance," as in "they didn't need to be healed when Reno arrived"?

Note the times, also. Tifa fought Loz at 3:50. Tifa chilled out unconscious until 5:00, when Cloud arrived. That was an hour and 10 minutes(!!). Then within the half hour between 5:00 and when Reno arrived at 5:30, they've healed "all by themselves." Sounds like something made that happen IMO.

I realize you're going through the original Japanese, but it could be that they meant for it to carry this meaning in English and failed.


@ Rinali— CoLW replaced Maiden. CoLW is considered canon and Maiden is considered fanfiction. CoLW does not have to reconcile with Maiden.

hitoshura said:

Raquelborn said:

(I left out that this was a quote in reference to a video game character)

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It's always the best thing to do

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And this, lol.

McChanny said:

I ship Clerith as canon.

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...seriously? That's just ignorant. Do you just pretend all the evidence pointing toward Cloti doesn't exist or something? I kinda thought you were smarter than that. Or are you just being facetious? D:

KissTheRain said:

...I know a few [Clerith forumgoers, presumably] that understand the compilation has no official couple, which i'll agree with. But I won't lie yes many think Clerith is canon as many Cloti's think Cloti is canon, so it is just about equal imo.

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There's something disturbing about the use of "understand" and "think" here.

Also, did you happen to notice while you were compiling these statistics that most people who will say "There's no official couple" prefered Clerith, or that most who aren't shippers but believe Clerith is canon are largely uninformed about the compilation and either don't care to or lack the ability to have a comprehensive understanding, while non-shippers who believe Cloti is canon are more likely to be individuals who are greatly informed about the compilation, the Japanese language, and/or know how to use logic effectively?

Because those are trends I've noticed.

Ravynne said:

@ Rinali— CoLW replaced Maiden. CoLW is considered canon and Maiden is considered fanfiction. CoLW does not have to reconcile with Maiden.

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Oh, I know. ^^

I never thought Maiden was canon, because of everything telling us it wasn't and nothing saying it was.

I was just saying that in Maiden there is actually a part where Aerith sees who the real Cloud is underneath it all. But Nojima didn't write about her ever becoming enlightened about Cloud in CoLW.

So, as far as the canon novella, did Aerith ever meet the real Cloud and get to really reconcile the Zack/Cloud situation? And if she didn't, when she says she loves Cloud are we to take it that she loves him as the only Cloud she knows, the one who reminds her of Zack?

I guess you can't expect things to be cut-and-dry, and that Aerith would just meet up with Zack in the Lifestream and be like "Where were we, bby?" and leave any and all affection for Cloud behind. And I think that it does make things more interesting, too.

Ravynne said:

That was an hour and 50 minutes.

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10 minutes?

Then within the half hour between 5:00 and when Reno arrived at 5:30, they've healed "all by themselves."

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Healing by themselves is a continuous action (I'm talking grammatically). It's happening at the same time as being taken back home by Reno and Rude (the Japanese text refers to "Reno and other", but this gets lost in translation and just ends up "Reno").

Amen, Ravynne.

Can we please just take a second to put in perspective a character in the narrative referring to something in the story, vs. a creator stating a fact?

On one hand we have Aerith within the narrative, bound by her own perspective and thoughts, stating what she feels, because that's how the writers, wrote her.

Then on the other hand we have Nomura speaking broadly, out of the narrative, in regards to what one character is (a lover) in regards to another character, who in all probability is Cloud.

Now which holds more water?

That's not "the compilation has no official couple", that's a fucking statement of a two people who ARE a couple. Disregarding ALL of the shit ton of evidence that any one with common sense and an open mind would see, we've got it in black and white text, who Tifa is a lover with. Right there. She's not a lover in a vacuum. You can't be a girlfriend to no one. There's only ONE person she has feelings for.

The fucking answer is there. Right there.

Zee said:

It's just that in my experience when someone pulls out the "she didn't know Cloud" card, it's followed by, "Cloud wasn't himself on disk one, so everything nice he did for her was really Zack/Jenova/Tifa Crossdressing".

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I had edited a reply about this in one of my other posts, but I somehow cut it out!

I wouldn't try to brush off anything Cloud did for Aerith in the time they got to spend together. But it is a little tricky, because many of the sweet things Cloud does for Aerith are optional.

Even though I think it was clever the way they put in the date mechanics to go along with the story, I kind of wish we wouldn't have had control over Cloud on Disc 1 sometimes. Because if all those things you can do for Aerith would have been set, it would be fun to talk about.

10 minutes?

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Shhh. >< You made that up. I never wrote that.

...Really.

hito said:

Healing by themselves is a continuous action (I'm talking grammatically). It's happening at the same time as being taken back home by Reno and Rude (the Japanese text refers to "Reno and other", but this gets lost in translation and just ends up "Reno").

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Ah, you're right, even in the English it says they woke up at 5:30, not that Reno found them at 5:30, and presumably it would take some time for them to carry them home, especially given that Cloud is said to be heavy. =P

Well obviously I fail at interpreting timelines. But fortunately that particular point doesn't have much impact on what I was saying.

Why is Vendel banned?

Also I'm merely starting the post off with that question. I'll edit in something I had to say, after I find the post I had to say it to.

Because you touch yourself at night.

And only one person got banned because of it? Well that seems fair.

Ryushikaze said:

Yeah, he tears up. I think the images of so was posted in Faith a few days ago.

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wat... I'll have to rewatch it or stalk Faith.

Everyone's baby but Wakka's.

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Did they have paternity tests back then?

They also had Cloud call himself Ex-SOLDIER for a reason.

But technically, it wasn't Aerith who called Cloud her lover, just as it wasn't Sephiroth who ranted about Cloud and made Shinentai. It was woman and man respectively. The story is opaque to their identities, but contains clues to their identity. 'He was her lover/beloved/monkey polisher' is one of those clues.

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Well.. now you just confused me.

Celes Chere said:

I asked for a quote that said Aerith healed Cloud and Tifa. And then you consulted imagination land. >=D

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And what's wrong with Imagination Land?

hitoshura said:

Re: "Aerith lives inside Cloud"

Transcript of that part (cleaned up with most of the non-fluency features removed), with the English subtitles (British DVD) and comments on any minor differences in square brackets:

&#27515;&#12435;&#12391;&#12418;&#24847;&#35672;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12418;&#12398;&#12364;&#12356;&#12388;&#12414;&#12391;&#12418;&#27531;&#12387;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;
Even if they're dead, their consciousness is still with use [remains forever].

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12364;AC&#12398;&#26412;&#32232;&#20013;&#12395;&#20309;&#24230;&#12418;&#12456;&#12450;&#12522;&#12473;&#12398;&#23039;&#12434;&#35211;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12435;&#12391;&#12377;&#12369;&#12393;&#12289;&#12381;&#12398;&#24847;&#35672;&#12434;&#12289;&#27515;&#12435;&#12384;&#20154;&#12398;&#21629;&#12434;&#24863;&#12376;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12363;&#12425;&#35211;&#12360;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12363;
As for Cloud, he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It's not that sees her because he feels her presence.

&#12381;&#12371;&#12395;&#12381;&#12398;&#24847;&#35672;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12392;&#35328;&#12358;&#12424;&#12426;&#12399;&#12289;&#29983;&#12365;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#20154;&#12398;&#20013;&#12395;&#12381;&#12398;&#24847;&#35672;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12363;&#12425;&#12381;&#12371;&#12395;&#35211;&#12360;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12363;&#12290;
He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.

&#29983;&#12365;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427; = is living
&#20154; = person(s)
&#29983;&#12365;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#20154; = person who is living

Unless "person who is living" is Nomura's epithet for Cloud, yar, it be not what he literally says. Of course it would include Cloud, but not as the 'they're super special' way people have made it out to be.

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So.... she does live on inside Cloud spiritually? But it doesn't mention anyone else?

Is it the creators, or is it a character/narrator created by one of them?

Nojima did write Lifestream White, but it's not Nojima himself speaking. It's a narrator separate from him, and sometimes narrators can be unreliable. Whether or not that's the case here would depend on your reading of it, I guess. Despite having a more detached feel ("the woman" instead of "Aerith"), it's still limited to her POV. We don't know anything she doesn't know (like Sephiroth's plans), so maybe her feelings do affect it as well.

I don't really care either way if it means Cloud loved her during FFVII or not. I don't see what the problem is with having characters love more than one person. But I still think it's too strong a word for what was shown in FFVII, though.

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Well that's what I'm asking.

I don't know, call me stubborn but it just doesn't seem all that great of a difference. Whether one person calls a character directly one thing, and then writes a project where another character is still stating the same thing... And yeah it is from Aerith's perspective, ergo why we won't be hearing Cloud's version of the story.

Also that shit about loving only one person is incredibly close minded. It's not uncommon to love someone for a long time and then somebody new comes along which arouses different feelings and leaves a giant question mark over the first love. Sure, it is only ZaCloud, but it's still Cloud to an extent. And her reoccurring appearances to him later on in AC/C only just push the idea further that hey, maybe he DID feel something for her as himself.

Just maybe.

McChanny said:

So.... she does live on inside Cloud spiritually? But it doesn't mention anyone else?

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No. The sentence says, literally, "within living people's consciousnesses, they can see the dead" basically.