The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Sikozu said:

I know that characters change and develop(if they're good characters, anyway). I know Tifa isn't a saint, and I don't remember trying to Mary Sue her.

I just don't think they ever went into that period when they were little kids in Nibelheim enough to indicate that Tifa was:

The kind of person you initially described sounds like a total bitch to me, which is why I replied the way I did.

So it's not that I don't grasp the concept of characters growing and changing, but I'm not going to invent a fault they don't have and have them develop out of it.

I'm fuzzy on the details, but I just don't remember ever getting the idea that Cloud ever really plainly stated his desire to join in with them. I think he says he "was never allowed in", but that could've been describing his feelings of not being able to fit in and connect with them rather than him saying "Please, guys, I want to be friends with you" and them shutting him down.

Cloud's reticent, socially awkward personality doesn't make me think he was direct about it. And I'm not blaming Cloud. I just don't see it as something either was at fault for, because they were eight and nine year-old kids.

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This. I am all for characters having faults. In fact, most of my favorite fictional characters are those who are not perfect. The thing is, being bitch is not really one of the Tifa's faults. And they were childhood friends. I don't know how someone can claim they weren't when there are official documents saying they were. As was said before, Tifa is not a saint or Mary Sue. She wouldn't be my favorite female character of all time if she was one. However, I don't agree with Tifa being bitchy queen bee who made Cloud's life miserable on purpose. On that note, Cloud also isn't a saint. He is not really a martyr in this story. He picked fights with kids who were Tifa's friends. He admitted it. I think it was a little hard for her to conclude that he liked her from that. When he called her to that water tower, she came. If she really wanted to hurt him, she could have said no. She said no to all other boys who called her to go there with them. So why say yes to Cloud, an outcast? This is why I can't buy Tifa being that hurtful to him.

Here's my thoughts on Childhood Tifa.

She is a slightly spoiled girl who people are also not telling the whole story, so she draws the wrong conclusions. She doesn't know her friends are picking on Cloud- she just knows the cute boy next door gets into fights with them. She lets him into their group, and then after that he never tries to be in the group again- because he's been forbidden by her dad, the Mayor- but she still has positive feelings about him. Positive enough to go meet him at the town's popular date meetup spot at night in a dress.

Tifa probably didn't snub Cloud- she was probably still friendly with him even after the accident she didn't remember- she just never thought about why he was picking fights with her other friends or her dad didn't like the boy. She just thought he was cute
Shallow thoughts, yes, but come on, but seriously, the girl was no more than 13 at the time the promise was made.

Likewise, if Cloud's 14 year old feelings are weak, then they get strong in a damn hurry.

I don't think we are in that much disagreement about Tifa's character. I can see now how my description made Tifa seem bitchy, for which I apologise. That's certainly not how I see her.

But they were definitely not childhood friends. Tifa was wrong about that, as she realises in the Lifestream.

Here's the gamescript:

"Tifa
"Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"

(The Cloud above speaks again.)

"Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who."

(The Cloud of the well speaks differently.)

"You......"

Tifa
"......Me? Why!?"

"Tifa...... did you forget...... about those days?"

(She turns away)

Tifa
"Look...... I......"

(She shakes her head)

Tifa
"I'm sorry...... But what are you talking about?"

(For the first time, we see Cloud, as a teenager, leap down from a high
stone column near the place where Nibelheim once could be seen.)

"No...... it's all right. You were having a hard time back then."

(Teenage Cloud looks down.)

"You were so busy with your own things, it's only natural you
don't remember me back then."

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Tifa is the one who doesn't remember. Cloud's memories are accurate. In order to validate his identity, she has to acknowledge that her own memories are faulty.

Tifa
"My room?"

(Young Cloud nods.)

Cloud
"It was my first time there."

Tifa
"Was... it?"

Cloud
"I only used to look up at it from outside."

(The screen flashes white. A teenage Tifa is now sitting on the floor at
the foot of her bed, her head bowed on her knees.. Three boys are standing
around her.)

"Hey, look!"

(The camera moves to show Tifa's window. One of the boys looks out of it.)

"Cloud's coming!"

(Through the window, we see Young Cloud come running up the path. The boy
turns to Tifa.)

"You think he wants to come in?"

(Tifa looks up a moment, then puts her head back down on her knees. The
present Tifa speaks.)

Tifa
"Was that the first day you came into my room?"

(Another boy walks up to Tifa.)

Tifa
"...that's right."
"We lived next to each other."
"But I really didn't know you that well."

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Cloud
" "Tifa always used to be with this three-some."
... "I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed
into the group."

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She never noticed that he felt left out. She never noticed him.

I suppose it depends on how you define "friends". They lived in a small town where everybody knew everyone else. Tifa may have thought of him as a friend because she thought of everyone in Nibelheim as her friend - the innkeeper, the shopkeeper, the photographer.... But Cloud clearly felt himself to be excluded from the circle that mattered.

"That night I called Tifa out to the well..."
"I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me."

(Tifa nods.)

Tifa
"Yeah... it was so sudden. I was... a bit surprised."

(She turns to face Young Cloud.)

Tifa
"But..."
"It's true that we weren't THAT close, but..."

(She turns to face her young self.)

Tifa
"After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."

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He thought that Tifa "hated" him. Rather a one-sided friendship, then. Tifa went out to the well because she was intrigued to get this mystery summons from someone who had never really been on her radar. At the well she realised there was more to him than she had realised, and it was only after he set off on his adventure that she started to think about him a lot.

My original point was that Cloud wasn't the only one who made a journey of self-discovery in the Lifestream. Tifa discovered that her own memories were faulty. Cloud had adopted Zack's persona, and can't be sure if he even existed before Hojo "cloned" him in the lab. Tifa had re-written the memory of her childhood to give Cloud a much larger role in it. Obviously Tifa's issue is fairly minor compared to Cloud's, but both of them have to face the truth of their memories in order for Cloud to be made whole. Right after Tifa realises the truth about their childhood, she also realises that they have found the key to Cloud"s identity:

Tifa
"But, I remember back when we were eight!"

(She nods)

Tifa
"That's it! Now I know!"

(She turns back to him)

Tifa
"You weren't created five years ago."
"My childhood memories weren't all made up!"

(She turns to the dark Cloud, then to the other.)

Tifa
"Hang in there Cloud! Just a little longer! You've almost found
the real you!"

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A couple points of clarification:

-During the Lifestream sequence, as they examine the memory at the well, Tifa does remark that she had thought Cloud was cute even then. It does stand to reason she had noticed him before that, but never reached out to him between her father hating him and Cloud having a reputation as a ruffian
-It would be accurate to call the two friends after exchanging the promise. We also don't know how much time passed between that event and Cloud leaving, but from the wording of their discussion ("Come next spring ..."), it was at least a season

Hawkeye said:

A couple points of clarification:

-During the Lifestream sequence, as they examine the memory at the well, Tifa does remark that she had thought Cloud was cute even then. It does stand to reason she had noticed him before that, but never reached out to him between her father hating him and Cloud having a reputation as a ruffian
-It would be accurate to call the two friends after exchanging the promise. We also don't know how much time passed between that event and Cloud leaving, but from the wording of their discussion ("Come next spring ..."), it was at least a season

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Yes, you're absolutely right. Also, it's interesting that fandom often sees Cloud as having been bullied in his childhood, when to the people of Nibelheim he was seen as the bully. I think it's just brilliant how the script managed to encompass so much backstory in so few words.

I think what the Lifestream-sequence wanted to establish, that apart from all the shit that Cloud and Tifa went as kids their last interaction together ended on a meaningful note; his promise to her was a constant to both, for him wanting to succeed and be deemed worthy and for her to have something to hold on to until Cloud returns.

I mean sure, they were children and all that, but that particular scene can be seen as the essential foundation their relationship was built on.

And speaking of Cloud and Tifa's relationship, I have some news. I just got the FF 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2.

I still have a few things I'd like to translate later, but I've already gotten to what is probably the most important stuff. Now, before I begin, I just want to say that we should all try to be mature about this. I feel like I kind of overdid the "Booya, eat it!" stuff three years ago when I translated the "For the One I Love" page from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide.

In fact, I'll admit it. I got a little immature. The "abandon ship" thing was probably too much. Funny even now, but kind of a low blow.

So, yeah, let's try to avoid that. We're not really hearing anything we didn't already know here, but it's going to be very memorable nonetheless. Also, unless someone wants to stick it in a Weekly Roundup, we can probably forego doing another frontpage post just for one or two passages about the LTD.

Alright, so, on pg. 23, in the "Memorial Words" section of Tifa's profile, we find the following:

----
"Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."
Prairie: The last night before the final battle, to Cloud when he finds himself at a loss for words

For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire toward partnership.

Japanese text:
長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。セフィロスとの最終決戦を目前にようやく、相手を求める気持ちを確かめ合えた。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/specialnight1_zpsfdea7ea8.jpg
----

Longtime followers of the LTD may notice the reappearance of "koui" (好意; "favors") here, the same word used on the character interrelation charts to say that Aerith and Tifa like Cloud. It's being used here to say that Cloud also feels that way about Tifa.

There's also "daiteita" (抱いていた; "have been holding") again, as well as "motomeru kimochi" (求める気持ちを; "feelings of desire").

Next up, on pg. 25, in the "Memorial Scenes" section of Tifa's profile, we find this:

----
The Fateful Night the Two Share
An event near the time of the final battle with Sephiroth, where Cloud and Tifa stay at the airship Highwind together. With this possibly being the end -- an evening overcome with a flood of feelings becomes something special.

Japanese text:
ふたりで過ごした運命の一夜
セフィロスとの決戦を間近にひかえ、クラウドとふたりきりで飛空艇ハイウインドにとどまったティファ。これで最後かもしれない——万感の想いがこまった一夜は特別なものに。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/specialnight2_zps5ca29123.jpg
----

If anyone's curious, the line in the screenshot is just "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment...".


So, there you have it. Completely inarguable statements that Cloud's feelings for Tifa were always there, even up to the time of the Highwind scene, and that he expressed those feelings to Tifa. In other words, the High Affection Highwind scene took place.

There's no other way it would be "something special." There's no other way it would be an evening "overcome with a flood of feelings."

To pre-empt any attempts: There's also no finagling "feelings of desire toward partnership" into something that isn't romantic. The book states straight up that Cloud and Tifa had romantic feelings for one another since childhood, and that they expressed those feelings to one another that night under the Highwind.

By the way, if anyone is wondering, the book doesn't speak of the game's affection rating system anywhere between its covers.

You mean Cloud/Tifa is pretty much canon? Wow, talk about flashnews!
(but srsly, thanks for the "new" info and the effort you made on translating.)

No u Tres. Partnership means business partnership. Favor means like....they owed each other money from way back or something.......and something special is uh.... Deciding to move in with Barret! Yes thats it

Plus like those two desserts at the SE restaurant came later, and we all know later things cancel out earlier canon.

Stap Tres, u r hurting me with ur beautiful words.

Waiting for the neutral translations to arrive.

I danced around my room, clicking my fingers at this. No joke.

Thank you for your effort, Tres!

Let me just unbias these translations for you.

Hawkeye said:

"Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."
Prarie: The last night before the final battle, to Cloud when he finds himself at a loss for words

For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire toward a mother/son-roommate partnership.

Japanese text:
長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。セフィロスとの最終決戦を目前にようやく、相手を求める気持ちを確かめ合えた。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/specialnight1_zpsfdea7ea8.jpg
----

Next up, on pg. 25, in the "Memorial Scenes" section of Tifa's profile, we find this:

----
The Fateful Night the Two Share
An event near the time of the final battle with Sephiroth, where Cloud and Tifa stay at the airship Highwind together. With this possibly being the end -- an evening overcome with a flood of feelings of friendship becomes something special.

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There we go. No contradictions!

Waiting for the Clerith fluff!

Seriously though thanks for the translations so far Hawkeye

Hawkeye said:

I still have a few things I'd like to translate later, but I've already gotten to what is probably the most important stuff. Now, before I begin, I just want to say that we should all try to be mature about this. I feel like I kind of overdid the "Booya, eat it!" stuff three years ago when I translated the "For the One I Love" page from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide.

In fact, I'll admit it. I got a little immature. The "abandon ship" thing was probably too much. Funny even now, but kind of a low blow.

So, yeah, let's try to avoid that. We're not really hearing anything we didn't already know here, but it's going to be very memorable nonetheless. Also, unless someone wants to stick it in a Weekly Roundup, we can probably forego doing another frontpage post just for one or two passages about the LTD.

Click to expand...

I appreciate this!
Nobody needs to worry about me trying to stir up trouble here over the Lifestream/Highwind events either

Cloti feels~~~, it's always nice to have something new to think about in the compilation, and going back to these cute moments really makes me love the pairing even more ^^

Thanks for the translations Tres! Regardless of how they might be analyzed, great job!

lol... they're just going to say "That's the High Affection scene" and "if Cloud and Tifa liked each other for a long time then why isn't it in the relationship chart?" again... Man you guys, I haven't been in this for that long and even I know that


But thanks for the translations Tres and the speech about being mature. That's very nice of you and awesome
These translations are fantastic but... after last time, I'm not getting my hopes up

EDIT
BTW Tres... is Cait Sith's profile in there again?... maybe I should translate the new one

Hawkeye said:

----
"Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."
Prairie: The last night before the final battle, to Cloud when he finds himself at a loss for words

For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire toward partnership.

Japanese text:
長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。セフィロスとの最終決戦を目前にようやく、相手を求める気持ちを確かめ合えた。

Source photo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/specialnight1_zpsfdea7ea8.jpg
----

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I would say 相手を would be more 'the other [person/each other]' here, and ようやく applying more to the part about finally being able to confirm their feelings than the battle with Sephiroth.

OneWingedDemon said:

Waiting for the neutral translations to arrive.

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There weren't enough sarcasm quotes around the term 'neutral' there.

Quexinos said:

lol... they're just going to say "That's the High Affection scene" and "if Cloud and Tifa liked each other for a long time then why isn't it in the relationship chart?" again... Man you guys, I haven't been in this for that long and even I know that

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Ah, yes, it IS the high affection scene. BUT, it's also what just plain happens. This is another confirmation that the scene in which mutual romantic confirmation happens IS THE ONE THAT HAPPENED.

But thanks for the translations Tres and the speech about being mature. That's very nice of you and awesome
These translations are fantastic but... after last time, I'm not getting my hopes up

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Seriously, Quex, just join is in the 'It's over, stop pretending' crowd.


Oh, and Tres, Ted Koppel regrets nothing!

Quexinos said:

EDIT
BTW Tres... is Cait Sith's profile in there again?... maybe I should translate the new one

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It is. In fact, I think his prediction of a Cloud/Aerith wedding is one of his Memorial Scenes.

So, yeah, there's more stuff I need to translate just so that I'm thorough.

For the sake of full disclosure, Aerith's "I want to meet you" line is one of her Memorial Words, and the date with her is one of her Memorial Scenes.

Claudia Wolf said:

I would say 相手を would be more 'the other [person/each other]' here, and ようやく applying more to the part about finally being able to confirm their feelings than the battle with Sephiroth.

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Gracias, good sir. Looking at it that way, it does make more sense. I've been a little rusty on my translations here lately.


Thanks again.

Why can't ~certain~ people accept that a couple that has had romantic feelings for each other and tension expressed their love in the most natural way there is? Especially when the situation they found themselves into was equivalent to the end of the world so it was like "hell, there's no point in holding back?"

That has happened countless times in the fiction world before it's not like it's news of the decade; get over it and stop trying to twist it, it took place, that's a fact.

I'm kinda interested in the Clerith scenes as well (it sounds like they are making them romantic in context to, which is fine by me, because I think it can work with Cloud/Tifa), but I'm just happy with the translations we are getting. Thanks for the work.

Curious though, does the book go into any Crisis Core/Zack in there? Or hell, make references to any of the compilation or is strictly within the original game lore?

It's almost strictly OG lore only, but it does acknowledge the Compilation in a couple of small ways. Under Zack's brief profile, it has his full name ("Zack Fair") in parentheses below just "Zack." Same thing with Reeve ("Reeve Tuesti").

It also includes art of the FFVII 10th Anniversary logo (the one with Cloud, Zack and Seph) in both black & white and full color.

Hello there Happy New Year!

I showed the last pages to Risa who's sitting beside me now...

She thinks Cloud and Tifa love each other OwO

Ryushikaze said:

Seriously, Quex, just join is in the 'It's over, stop pretending' crowd.

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I... am? I'm just saying that's what the retort will be. And with Aerith's date and "meet" line being in there... I just don't see it making a difference in what we all know now

Yeah Cloti's canon and all, has been since probably 1997, but that doesn't mean I don't expect anything to actually end here.

For the sake of full disclosure, Aerith's "I want to meet you" line is one of her Memorial Words, and the date with her is one of her Memorial Scenes.

Click to expand...

So her date is canon now?


EDIT
oh... lookatthat... it's new years.. and I'm sitting here looking at Cloud and Tifa quotes... thanks a lot guys

Probably.

One of Tifa's Memorial Scenes shows a screenshot from her date, but from glancing over it, I think it might be talking more about her general difficulty expressing her feelings to Cloud, whereas Aerith's looks to be more about the date itself.

Of course, Barret's date is one of his Memorial Scenes too.

In any case, the Highwind scene's description in Tifa's profile makes no distinction between high or low affection, and just straight up tells us what happened there. With the book not even mentioning the date mechanics or different versions of the scene, it's going to be quite impossible to argue that something different was meant from what was printed.