The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
I buy Cloti but I don't buy into the whole they were bbf forever/knew each other inside out

He made dubious medical operations on Tifa when they were children and curiously observed her intestines because of his inexplicable obsession. He tried to analyze how her bowels work thinking she might be an alien or stuff since he thinks of her as someone from out of this world. This all happened when Tifa was unconscious from the fall.

Karma then came back to Cloud by the form of Dr. Hojo.

Now I know some people might say but that means he doesn't really know Tifa at all!

He not only used to ogle shamelessly at her and follow her around, he even poked holes on her bathroom walls to peep. He knew where she stores her panties and eventually stole a lacy one. When Tifa's in the shower, he'd creep into her room through her window (which she stupidly always leaves open for who knows why, maybe it's an open invitation to creeps, i dunno) and read her journals and cheesy poems. He also looked at her school yearbook and manually altered her surname to 'Strife' (Cloud, the assuming git!).

He knows she uses Victoria's Secret to spray her panties when they were children. And he was reminded of it again when he intentionally smelled the panties he stole in his adolescence.

He knows she secretly hates her neighbor's cat since he always hears her mumbling it when she is alone in her room, while he is sitting outside her window just to listen to her voice.

One time, he even heard her fart without her knowing.

Etc, etc.

Cloud's favorite song then was "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.



These all happened in my game. And it baffles me how Shademp has yet to feature these in any of his articles. Has he failed to unlock these simple secrets? That's very inconceivable when talking about Shademp. Or maybe he is a closet Clerith. I don't know anymore.
 
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I was going to post, but nothing could beat that.

So I'll just boringly say that what I like about the Lifestream segment of the game is that Tifa also realises her memories were faulty. She and Cloud had never been childhood friends. Her memories were flattering her into thinking she'd been a nicer kid than the cliquey queen bee she actually was. She used to snub him and then blame the victim: "we wondered why you were so strange."
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
Maybe it's me but I never got the impression that she snubbed him. I just thought she had her group of friends, and that Cloud and Tifa never really... intersected. I mean, Tifa's friends might have been a jerkass but I dunno, she just seemed to be in her own group rather than actively snubbing anyone.

She use to think he always got into fights all the time, but that was after Cloud and Tifa got into the accident. I guess I can see it both ways?
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
I really don't get where the "Tifa the Bully" thing comes from. :/

If Tifa snubbed/bullied/ostracized Cloud when they were little kids, that'd make her a selfish, uncaring person. It'd mean she cared so little about the guy's feelings that she completely forgot she ever treated him badly. And the promise scene with this version of Tifa? Not only did she snub and ostracize him then completely forgets ever doing it, but she now wants Cloud to be her own personal hero and rescue her from danger? I guess it's because she's lonely because her clique is all leaving town, so she needs someone else to make her the center of their universe? And she doesn't even apologize for being a bitch to him up to that point first?

How could we reconcile this Tifa with the friendly, caring person that tries to look out for her comrades we see everywhere else?

Well, I guess the fall from the mountain might have knocked her a new personality. :awesome:

(Plus, Tifa was eight when the Nibel mountain accident happened(iirc). Eight. Just saying. They were all but babies, those kids. I think it was more of a misunderstanding between them than all those kids just being THAT mean.)
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
And I still insist that the "hard to see" implication is what applies to the context at hand. We're otherwise shown that Cloud's feelings for Tifa were an enormous matter to him during that time, and Cloud himself referred to those feelings as a secret wish no one else could know about.

Hell, "secretly" even fits the context of the Ultimania passage the "slightly fell in love with" line comes from better, being that the rest of it deals with powerful emotions, such as Cloud's vow to protect Tifa and his shame at returning to his hometown without fulfilling his vow to become a SOLDIER.

and I'd honestly believe you if not for the fact that I have not found a SINGLE person, Japanese native and all experts included that backed you on this. Everyone I talked to said it's not secretly but that it indicates slight feelings are there. It could also be the phrase is talking about the beginning stages of love as well. I'll buy that. But I have never seen one person say that it's secret other than you and Tim.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything here, I Just don't feel like secretly is the right translation.
 

skyrise

get cape. wear cape. fly.
and I'd honestly believe you if not for the fact that I have not found a SINGLE person, Japanese native and all experts included that backed you on this. Everyone I talked to said it's not secretly but that it indicates slight feelings are there. It could also be the phrase is talking about the beginning stages of love as well. I'll buy that. But I have never seen one person say that it's secret other than you and Tim.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything here, I Just don't feel like secretly is the right translation.
A misquote or wrong definition doesn't undermine whatever the game and the after-game material demonstrated.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
It demonstrated that cloud was beginning to fall in love with Tifa... which I said would work... so what's the problem?
 

skyrise

get cape. wear cape. fly.
It demonstrated that cloud was beginning to fall in love with Tifa... which I said would work... so what's the problem?
I don't have a problem; it just seemed to me (and I might perceived it wrongly) that you were trying to base Cloud/Tifa on that damn term that is or isn't translated properly, as if that single word can erase whatever romantic feelings were implied/shown through the story.
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
I don't get why it's such a stretch that it'd be secret here. At this point, Cloud just does have secret feelings for Tifa, doesn't he?

It doesn't seem to make much sense to me to use dim or faint here, because although I wouldn't call Cloud's feelings for Tifa mature at this point in time, I'd still call them very strong. I don't think he'd be so obsessed with keeping his promise with Tifa(it's etched in his mind, his "dying" words in BC are regrets that he couldn't come through on his promise to Tifa, etc..)

Faint/slight/dim(with synonyms like weak, feeble, dull, pale)don't fit well into the context to me.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Lol I guess you don't know me very well.

The CloTi Perspective:
To begin the story of Cloti, we'll start in the lifestream event. It is in that moment when Tifa literally walks through Cloud's mind and sees the window to his past and true self. Many of Cloud's old memories and actions revolve around Tifa herself. In fact, the three most important memories that end up bringing Cloud back together are about himself and Tifa.

(SOURCE 10th AU: "The memory of 5 years ago, the promise at the water tower, Cloud's motive to decide to become a SOLDIER. Together with Tifa, Cloud grasps the truth of himself and now faces the reality of 5 years ago. During the tragedy of Nibelheim, Cloud defeated Sephiroth as a mere soldier, keeping his promise to Tifa. At last, the two who discovered the truth meet again with true significance, and return to reality where their friends await.")

The first memory is that Cloud would get into fights constantly because he was angry at himself for not being able to protect Tifa from falling from Mt Nibel. The second memory is the night Cloud made the Promise to Tifa to come to help her if she ever needed it. This was significant to Cloud because Tifa had been called out to the water tower before by many other boys, but always turned them down. It was at this moment that Tifa began to take interest in Cloud.

(SOURCE 10th AU page 12: "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

SOURCE 10th AU page 24: "In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire.

However when the promise was exchanged, at that moment, Cloud became a special existence to her, which later, he now holds a huge position (in Tifa's life).")


Cloud also had feelings for Tifa, but because he was young, they hadn't the time grow yet. This is IMO, why they were called "dim" or "slight" feelings, because his feelings changed to that of love overtime as he grew.

(SOURCE 10th AU page 12 "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

SOURCE Crisis Core Ultimania: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her. )


The promise also means much to Cloud, for it is forever etched in his mind/memory.

(SOURCE Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile. "A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory."

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind.")


Cloud also decided to join SOLDIER because he wanted someone to notice him, and the one person he singles out, is once again, Tifa.

(SOURCE FFVII "Cloud: If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......").

The third and final memory is of when Cloud defeated Sephiroth and came to Tifa's rescue even though he was a tad late. All of these memories show just how important Tifa is to Cloud. Even the young Cloud says to Tifa that she should tell the adult Cloud about how she was looking for information about him in the newspaper when he left. The younger Cloud knows the adult Cloud cares about Tifa a great deal and knows this will make him happy because his feeling have changed from slight feelings to that of love.

(SOURCE: FFVII:
Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."

*Young Cloud looks down.*

"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

*Tifa nods* )


It is then Tifa realizes just how important she is to Cloud and that those feelings he had when he was a kid have grown to love, and we know she still carries her feelings for him from when she was younger.

(SOURCE Ultimania Omega page 25: Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.

SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.)



THIS is what Tifa and Cloud talked about under the Highwind. When they were left alone (left alone as in no one watched them even if they did have sex... )

(SOURCE: U20: As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.")

they realized how important they were to one another. They realized they loved one another and wanted to be by each other's side. They also related their feelings to each other without using words, which would indicate some form of romancing going on.

(SOURCE(s): "FFVIIUO, pg. 15: Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 198: When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

"CCU, pg. 33: She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

"FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition: Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary: And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." )

"U20 Scenario, pg. 394 VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match

"U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232: Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

"FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game"

"U20 Scenario, pg. 199: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book)


Later on, on the Highwind, Cloud and Tifa get teased momentarily. None of the friends actually saw what happened, but Tifa is very embarrassed obviously concerned about what they might have seen, or heard. This happens even if you get the low affection scene, so it implies that something happened, even if it was just talking. If it was just feelings of friendship or working something out, Tifa is embarrassed for no reason at all. Cloud puts his hand behind his head as he's also embarrassed but not as much as Tifa. That moment is quickly forgotten as the story moves on.

After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud is lead back to his consciousness by Aerith, and is awakened just in time to save Tifa as she nearly falls to her death. Having seen Aerith's hand moments ago, Cloud speaks about the promised land, saying that he thinks he can find his fallen friend there. He isn't sure if he's going to live, but knows that even if he doesn't, his friend will be waiting for him. Tifa agrees with Cloud and expresses an interest to see her fallen comrade as well.

(SOURCE Ultimania Omega Tifa's Profile: After the dispute with Sephiroth is settled, the two of them, Tifa and Cloud, plot their escape from the hole of the crumbling cave's deepest depths. [He?] thinks he understands the Promised Land's meaning now and therefore thinks he can meet [her there...]

She smiles toward Cloud when he says this, "Yeah let's go meet [her]." she recites. The companion they go to meet is naturally Aerith.


At the start of CoT, Cloud smiles as Tifa stands by his side. Cloud expresses, once again, that he wishes for forgiveness for his sins. He believes starting a new life and living it the best he can will lead him to his salvation. And with a smile, he tells Tifa he believe he can do this now, and not fail like he has in the past, because he has her with him and he is very content with this.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)


When Case of Tifa progresses, Cloud and Barret build 7th Heaven as their home, and Barret decides at one point to leave.

(SOURCE: Case of Barret: "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.")

He leaves Marlene and Tifa and Cloud's care and calls them a family.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:
"Don't worry, I'll be a good kid to them!"
When Marlene said that, Cloud and Tifa exchanged glances. To us?
"I'll take good care of Tifa and Cloud!"
Looking back, Barret said with a shout:
"You be strong!" His voice was cracking. "Work together as a family and keep at it, ya hear?!"



Cloud begins to live like he said he would, and he's very happy with his new life. He even starts his own business and begins a delivery service. It is when this happens that things begin to change. Cloud starts to become distant and Tifa and Marlene notice this. This is because of the feelings of guilt he begins to feel.

(SOURCE: U10 Tifa's Profile: Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him."

He had to deliver flowers to the Forgotten City which reminded him of how badly he failed Aerith. He begins to feel that because he could not protect his friends and those important to him, that he doesn't deserve this wonderful family he has. He starts to feel worthless and grows more and more distant as time goes on.


(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary: "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"

Nomura in Distance: "The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes."

SOURCE: Reunion Files: Tifa fought alongside Cloud in a battle two years ago. She has a long history of memories with him that are connected to their future, but Cloud eventually distances himself from Tifa.)


Because he grows so distant, Tifa becomes concerned and starts to wonder if their love for one another is enough to get through the crisis they are dealing with. She even becomes angry with Cloud because of his behavior toward her and Marlene and snaps at him a time or two. They are a couple in peril and many couples go through similar things like this. She asks Cloud one night if he loves her and he awakens perplexed for a moment. Afraid of the answer, she changes the question to ask if he loves Marlene to which he says, "Yes I just don't know how to approach her sometimes." Tifa then asks if they'll be okay, but doesn't get a response.

At some point during all this, Cloud begins visiting Aerith's church searching for salvation. One day when he's there he runs across Denzel, a young boy with Geostigma. He decides to bring Denzel back to join his family and Tifa agrees. They start to raise Denzel along with Marlene and their family life starts to get back to normal.

(SOURCE Case of Tifa: Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.)

One night Cloud tells Tifa that he feels Aerith brought Denzel to him and confesses to visiting the church. Tifa, not wanting Cloud to suffer alone, tells him that she'll go with him next time, and reaffirms his belief about Denzel, but adds that she believes Aerith brought Denzel to their home and family. Cloud smiles at hearing this, knowing that he has people who care about him and want to help. Tifa and his family are always with him and this makes him happy.

Shortly afterwards, Cloud begins searching for a cure for Denzel to redeem himself for his past sins;

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”

Tifa nodded silently.

“But maybe we can save the lives who are in a crisis just now. Maybe even I can do it.”

“You mean Denzel?”

“Yeah.”)


however one day when he's out and about, he comes in contact with the disease. He feels that his one shot at redemption is completely blown and once again, he feels worthless. He thinks he doesn't deserve the friends and family he has, so he runs away to hide himself from his shame, and begins to live in Aerith's church possibly looking for another chance for salvation.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary Cloud's Profile: "Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.")

AC Prologue: "Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he's never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away."

"Nomura: Even though he found peace, Cloud has lost a lot of people dear to him up until this point. Not only that, but looking at Cloud's history, this is the first time he's experienced a 'peaceful' environment in the true sense of the word. Cloud is a character who will always keep thinking, regardless of what's going on around him."

Shonen Gangan interview: "-- So, why has Cloud separated himself from his friends?

Nomura: Cloud is scared that the peace he has now might shatter, so he is living on his own.

-- Why?

Nomura: In the past he meet Zack, his best friend, and Aerith, someone who was important to him, but he lost them, so wonders if his present peace will also shatter one day... Since something might happen while he's around, he left everyone behind and is doing delivery work on his own.

-- But he still has a mobile phone, and he doesn't seem to have rejected other people outright.

Nomura: Yeah. Delivery work itself is something which connects people together. While he appears to be rejecting other people, in actual face he feels lonely deep down. That's why he has his mobile phone."


As FFVII AC goes on, Aerith is finally able to speak to Cloud to tell him to move on and that she never blamed him for anything. Thanks to Aerith, Marlene and Tifa, Cloud is able to fight again, and rises up to defeat Sephiroth once again. He wakes up in the church, surrounded by his loved ones, finally free of his guilt. This is truly his promised land. A place where he can live among his friends, and family without guilt or insecurities. As Aerith leaves along with Zack, Cloud smiles and think to himself that he isn't alone. He isn't alone because he has his family and he knows they will be there for him and he doesn't have to suffer alone and that his family and friends will always be there for him.

(SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet

I don't get why it's such a stretch that it'd be secret here. At this point, Cloud just does have secret feelings for Tifa, doesn't he?
Because that's not what the word means :(
You can't just assign a word a definition cause it "makes sense." granted I understand where Tres is coming from with his explanation, I just don't think it's correct because if it's seem dimly then it's not a secret, right? ...

It's talking about how he began to fall in love with her. I think Hito explained this better than I did. Why is THAT such a stretch?


EDIT
sorry edited some stuff for clarity
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
There is, yes but as in dim... meaning you'd still be able to see it a little, if you can see it a little... then it's not a secret :monster:
So if it is saying his feelings are only seen a little.. you wouldn't use secret.. you'd use... idk something else

I am curious as to what Dansusu's friend meant by "both are included" though...
 
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Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
There is, yes but as in dim... meaning you'd still be able to see it a little, if you can see it a little... then it's not a secret :monster:
So if it is saying his feelings are only seen a little.. you wouldn't use secret.. you'd use... idk something else

Like
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indistinct
? When I looked the word up at a few different Japanese to English dictionaries, it always includes indistinct as a definition.

But whatever, I don't know anything much about Japanese.
 
I really don't get where the "Tifa the Bully" thing comes from. :/

If Tifa snubbed/bullied/ostracized Cloud...

Whoa. They're not the same thing. Snubbing is at one end of spectrum. Ostracism is right at the very other. You can snub someone unintentionally by simply not noticing them. Tifa may not have snubbed Cloud deliberately, but he felt snubbed, and it burned in him. And she never noticed.

...when they were little kids, that'd make her a selfish, uncaring person.

Perhaps you don't spend much time around children? Most normal kids are fairly self-centred and have an under-developed sense of empathy. If Tifa was caught up in ruling the roost in her own clique and forgot to reach out to Cloud or notice him, that makes her a pretty typical middle schooler, tbh.

she now wants Cloud to be her own personal hero and rescue her from danger? I guess it's because she's lonely because her clique is all leaving town, so she needs someone else to make her the center of their universe? And she doesn't even apologize for being a bitch to him up to that point first?

Yes, that sums her up pretty well, except for the bitchy part. I don't think she was ever bitchy. I actually quite like this interpretation of teenage Tifa. She's experimenting with the power of her sexuality. She enjoys being able to manipulate boys. She doesn't have to be a 'nice' person in order for me to like her. In fact, she's more interesting if her teenage self isn't angelically kind and unselfish, especially since she subsequently edits her memories to make her younger self seem nicer, and persuades herself she and her dear childhood friend Cloud were always close.


How could we reconcile this Tifa with the friendly, caring person that tries to look out for her comrades we see everywhere else?

Very easily. It's called character growth. People change. Especially when they have been through life-shattering catastrophic trauma that leaves them with survivor guilt, causes them to question the meaning of existence, and teaches them to hate. Tifa is full of hate. Tifa is a terrorist. Tifa blows up factories and kills people. That isn't very friendly or caring. [She's also a dab hand at the bitch slap].

Tifa is probably my absolute favourite female Final Fantasy character (Fran is also right up there). I just wish I could persuade you how much more wonderful and interesting the warts-and-all version of Tifa is than the plaster madonna some fans try to make her out to be. Square worked hard to give us fully rounded characters in FFVII, but for some reason fandom keeps trying to simplify and flatten them.
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Like
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indistinct
? When I looked the word up at a few different Japanese to English dictionaries, it always includes indistinct as a definition.

But whatever, I don't know anything much about Japanese.

Kinda :monster:
but yeah something that's not quite formed yet would work.. which is why I say he was starting to fall in love with her. As I said Hito put it best, but I think it's describing feelings that aren't quite all there yet. I'll let him explain it when he inevitably sees this
 

Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
I think a better context might be nascent or not yet developed. Though I'm not really sure why whether Cloud had secret, weak, dim, or indistinct feelings matters. Their relationship develops as the story progresses. It's almost like speculating on Tifa's years between Nibelheim and Cloud's return. She could have dated someone else or just fapped to a picture of him above Seventh Heaven the entire time and it wouldn't really change how their bond strengthens over the course of VII and the compilation. She was a girl who wanted a hero and he was a boy who wanted to be someone's hero. After a sword through the chest, genetic experimentation, memory loss, a couple thousand monsters, a hegemonic corporation , a mass murdering psychopath, and a nasty case of survivor's guilt it works out for them in the end.
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
Whoa. They're not the same thing. Snubbing is at one end of spectrum. Ostracism is right at the very other. You can snub someone unintentionally by simply not noticing them. Tifa may not have snubbed Cloud deliberately, but he felt snubbed, and it burned in him. And she never noticed.

Okay, but when you said Tifa was the cliquey queen bee that snubbed him, then blamed it on him for being strange it didn't give me the idea that you thought Tifa only unintentionally snubbed him by not noticing. :/
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
. She could have dated someone else or just fapped to a picture of him above Seventh Heaven the entire time and it wouldn't really change how their bond strengthens over the course of VII and the compilation.
I don't think it's called fapping when girls do it...


I think a better context might be nascent or not yet developed.
Yes this is very true... and what I would argue :monster:
Thanks
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Thanks Danseru, I'd never ague that his feelings were not secret :monster:
I just wanted to know what she thought of the honoka ni part. (she meant the context of the sentence, right?)

Either way your friend has been a big help, make sure to tell her that ^_^
 

skyrise

get cape. wear cape. fly.
Very easily. It's called character growth. People change. Especially when they have been through life-shattering catastrophic trauma that leaves them with survivor guilt, causes them to question the meaning of existence, and teaches them to hate. Tifa is full of hate. Tifa is a terrorist. Tifa blows up factories and kills people. That isn't very friendly or caring. [She's also a dab hand at the bitch slap].

Tifa is probably my absolute favourite female Final Fantasy character (Fran is also right up there). I just wish I could persuade you how much more wonderful and interesting the warts-and-all version of Tifa is than the plaster madonna some fans try to make her out to be. Square worked hard to give us fully rounded characters in FFVII, but for some reason fandom keeps trying to simplify and flatten them.
This. Tifa is so much more than ~a badass that is deep down a sweetie~ as most people describe her.
Tifa is loyal to the people she loves but she carries a huge amount of guilt for the people she (indirectly but still) murdered through the actions of AVALANCHE, that served also her own revenge agenda. She is a very complex character as most are on FFVII but ohlolfandom.
 

Sikozu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sylphide
I know that characters change and develop(if they're good characters, anyway). I know Tifa isn't a saint, and I don't remember trying to Mary Sue her.

I just don't think they ever went into that period when they were little kids in Nibelheim enough to indicate that Tifa was:

She and Cloud had never been childhood friends. Her memories were flattering her into thinking she'd been a nicer kid than the cliquey queen bee she actually was. She used to snub him and then blame the victim: "we wondered why you were so strange."

The kind of person you initially described sounds like a total bitch to me, which is why I replied the way I did.

So it's not that I don't grasp the concept of characters growing and changing, but I'm not going to invent a fault they don't have and have them develop out of it.

I'm fuzzy on the details, but I just don't remember ever getting the idea that Cloud ever really plainly stated his desire to join in with them. I think he says he "was never allowed in", but that could've been describing his feelings of not being able to fit in and connect with them rather than him saying "Please, guys, I want to be friends with you" and them shutting him down.

Cloud's reticent, socially awkward personality doesn't make me think he was direct about it. And I'm not blaming Cloud. I just don't see it as something either was at fault for, because they were eight and nine year-old kids.
 
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