Addressing the core issues

[Lex]

I don't think we are off topic. The discussion we're having is addressing the core issues, and the incidents we're discussing revolve around those.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The off topicness was accusing people of being the source of the USvThem thing when pretty much everyone involved is at fault for that.

Blaming folks is not the way out.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Fair enough, Kassi, despite what your friends have said I am sorry that my post legitimately offended you. I'm still not entirely sure why my post warranted me being called a bluh bluh huge bitch, but if it made you upset that's that. I just wish you would have said so, instead of having your friends speak for you. I would have been fine with working this issue out with you without all the comments of the peanut gallery.

As I said in the other thread, I don't hate you. I don't hate ANYONE here. I disagree and don't get along with some people yeah, but I don't hate them.

Kassi didn't ask anyone to intervene on her behalf, and she certainly didn't ask anyone to call you a bitch or anything else of the sort. All of them did it of their own volition after realising how upset she was, without any sort of prompting other than standing up for a friend who was hurt.

Thank you for your apology, however.

 

[Celes Chere]

I know that, I'm just saying now if anyone ever has a problem with me PLEASE come to me about it. Whether it be directly in a thread or in a PM, I'm not really one to be ignorant about these issues. <=/ Believe it or not, I would like us NOT to be fighting over this nonsense.

 

[Alex]

The off topicness was accusing people of being the source of the USvThem thing when pretty much everyone involved is at fault for that.

Blaming folks is not the way out.

Well making a thread to point out that CK is at least a little bit to blame just seemed silly.

 

[Tifabelle]

Let me try to address some things first.

I understand where Alex is coming from, and I don't entirely disagree with his sentiment. However, IRC is just another form of communication like skype or msn. Closing it isn't going to suddenly force people onto the forum; they'll just find another way to talk. That being said I personally am not sure that closing the IRC at this point in time will help. Unless I'm not understanding the meaning of the suggestion?

Furthermore, I've been to the IRC and used to frequent it on a daily basis. From personal experience, the people that also frequent it are friendly in general and I've never had any confrontations with any of them that I can recall. Despite that, I did see a group forming in there and didn't feel apart of it. I stopped going to the IRC because of this and for other reasons. I don't hold it against anyone, just view it as different people will be different.

I do think it's unfair to criticize members (individually or as a group) then try to invite them to the IRC. It shouldn't be a surprise why people wouldn't have any interest in going there. Just throwing that out there.

Now everyone wants to quell the "us vs them" feel, but to claim it doesn't exist is pure lunacy. There very clearly are two groups of people that have found themselves standing in a firing range opposite each other. To pretend otherwise and point fingers at one group or another at this point is just foolishness.

Now both of these groups have old members and new members alike. Again, to suggest otherwise is just fallacy. And sure in each group, everyone is friendly and happy and blah blah. But people are just different and they will flock to people that are similar to them. I don't see anything wrong with that. What I feel has happened is that somehow the two groups have become antagonistic toward each other.

I think there's a feeling of the "popular group", but to be honest, I had only made three or four friends when I joined TLS. How? I have no idea. Just by posting and being friendly and sharing interests with them I suppose. When another new member joined, she was incredibly friendly and also shared similar interests. I frequented IRC even though they did not. As more people became regulars in the IRC, I felt uncomfortable and out of place there. As such, I left. Shortly thereafter, I was welcomed by other, older members to join in their activities despite not having any personal interaction with them prior to this. You know how that happened? I asked to be included. I made a post in the xbox thread about joining a gaming session. And I was welcomed with open arms despite them not knowing me aside from whatever I had posted on tls.

So when people talk about a group of old members, it bothers me because we all haven't been friends any longer than the IRC folks. Some members sure, but I certainly am not one of them. And neither is Sami for that matter, who joined the forum a couple months after I did. And before I became friends with them, I was treated the exact same way as everyone else was treated.

The forum has denigrated to the point now where members are packing their bags and leaving. And several others are considering following suit. I'm one of them, tbh. I've felt this way for quite a while. I'm so incredibly distressed right now that I haven't even responded to messages from my friends both today and last night.

As for the "thanks" issue, the thanks system has been here since the board started, since long before I was here. To have it suddenly be a problem is sort of shocking to me. People have always thanked posts they agree with, think are funny, think are rude. People have thanked posts ironically or just because they're bored. There are thousands of reasons and none of them matter. Sure people will tend to thank their friends' posts more. So what? I honestly could care less who thanks what posts, or if mine ever get thanked or not. I'm sure posts that I've found offensive or rude toward me have been thanked, but I never felt any which way about that. To attempt to delegate how or why posts should be thanked is to me a ridiculous concept. Personally I find it much less offensive to have a rude post thanked than to have people make posts like "hahaha that was hilarious" etc. ffs, Tres, Sami, & Tiff thank every other post in existence. Ryu has never thanked one in his life. Yop hardly ever thanks any. I can go on and on. It's so insignificant a thing, it boggles my mind that this has become an issue.

 

[Fangu]

CK is an all right dude, his post was merely the catalyst IMO. This fight has been puttering under a lid for quite some time.

Lic, you're probably right. Trying to resolve stuff in here with rules and reviews haven't worked out - not for as long as I've been here anyway. Problem is. I don't have siblings so I never learned how to fight Besides So I really think fighting is pointless but that's just me. I defended Lex a week ago and afterwards I felt like I'd been tricked somehow, so that's how special I am. (But I know I am special, I even got a button saying just that!) Not that my diplomacy ever got me anywhere either.

So, the fuck if I know. I still think we aren't that different. Like, I thought Alex was the rudest fuck ever but now I really like him. Opinions can change and one day the sun might shine. End of line, cya in another thread

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Aside from a couple of people saying "I never went there but I don't think I'd like it" or "I tried it and it wasn't really my thing" can anyone actually tell me exactly why we should shut down the IRC?

Honestly, I never seen a single person flamed there, not once. Unlike the forums.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd like an actual, honest, constructive answer to my question. If you say that you're not encouraging people to be assholes to other people on this forum, that the issue lies strictly with the IRC, why are trolling posts encouraged on the forum?

I agree that Soak's reaction was extreme. She however, is actually sorry. She's not saying 'oh that's me, fuckin' deal with it'; she said she was pissed off and overreacted.

Honestly, I'm sorta with Dawn on this.

Alex raises a good point about sensitivity, but if that is how the memberbase is, that is not going to change. That is an inherent personality trait.

Out of all the forums I've moderated, this place has some of the most lax, and laid back rules. And that might actually be a problem. A slowly toxic atmosphere has descended amongst the member base that has only been exacerbated by a feeling amongst members that there's a schism between the "popular members" and then the "other members."

This is frankly, unacceptable. And something needs to be done. When the LTD turned to ground zero, we tightened the rules and whipped it into shape. Perhaps something similar needs to be done on this board so we don't have people being dicks to each other with impunity. There is clearly a problem with certain members feeling comfortable posting and we've lost SEVERAL members and staff to all the bullshit going on.

As for IRC, I'm on the fence. But I think whatever IRC's problems are, are just a symptom of the issues that are actually spawning from the board proper. So nuking it doesn't really fix the main problems, does it?

Anyways, that's what I'm thinking at this point.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well making a thread to point out that CK is at least a little bit to blame just seemed silly.

I didn't say 'CK is a little to blame'

I said, and say, EVERYONE is.

That's you, that's me, that's Teef, that's Lex, that's Sami, that's even Brooke.

We are all at fault in our own ways for failing to curtail and correct the bad atmosphere that pervades the forum.

Also, Kripey, that I never thank posts was actually brought up as a mark against me, so there is some element of alienation even from my sheer refusal to use the system.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

i think that i have played too much hatoful boyfriend to let any drama effect me

you don't know life until you have helped your pidgeon boyfriend become the lord of pudding

 

[Zee]

It might look like a clique because it's where all the abused kids go when the playground bullies have had their fun.

what


no seriously what


you're making it sound like non-irc people go out of their way to bully/harass you guys and that's not that case at all

i can think of a few times there have been disagreements but that's it
i dont think anyone cares enough to actively bully any of the irc people

this is some weird persecution complex that needs to stop

also in addressing why certain people don't use irc: i went on a few times but i just prefer chatting on skype/msn. i didn't think i had to use irc to get to know people -- my profile's right there, people can leave me messages, my contact info is right there. i had no problem being friendly towards people without using it before, and now suddenly there's this weird gap and i don't know when it started, so yeah, the irc channel was maybe not the direct cause but it sure isn't helping matters.

i mean recently it's so sensitive around here that people are either blowing up at stuff that should be handled pretty simply or not talking about stuff that's been bothering them for a while. i'm not saying we all need to be best buddies or anything, but can we at least cut this bullshit out?

 

[Cookie Monster]

I've been having a chat with Alex, and there are a few things I'd like to bring up.

This community has been divided for so long people are just pointing fingers here and no one is owning up to the fact that everyone has been a part of the problem. The initial divide is probably staff's fault. We've made some piss poor decisions in the past. But, this is beyond that now. It's us versus them versus Staff plus the people who want no part of it. And now, those people are leaving the forum. Great members too. It's a damn shame it's gotten to this point.

This issue with CK mirrors what happened between Rishi and Ryu. What CK said was a joke. It was inappropriate because he didn't know Kassi well enough, if at all. The same thing happened between Ryu and Rishi awhile back. And because they didn't know each other, the joke seemed much more harsh than it was really meant to be. I think that has been an ongoing problem for months, if not years.

And, it's been that way because everyone has found their little cliques, and no one is willing to break the ice to better their relationships with other members. Probably because you guys are just lazy as shit, or you're just content with the friendships you've already made. Going out of your way to talk to someone you don't want to talk to wouldn't be enjoyable, especially when you just come here to relax and have a good time.

But, if you care about this community at all, I'm asking you now, to put in the effort. This isn't going to change unless we all do our part. Be more aware of who you're talking to. Don't make cunting remarks just because you see an opportunity to make them. And when you see a post you're uncomfortable with, report it. DON'T INVOLVE YOURSELF. IT DOES NOT HELP. AT ALL. And, if staff isn't doing enough, tell us. If everyone does that, this forum will be so much better. But, everyone has to do their part. This is no longer something staff can fix, this requires everyone's participation.

I really don't know what else to say.

 

[Zee]

I didn't say 'CK is a little to blame'

I said, and say, EVERYONE is.
That's you, that's me, that's Teef, that's Lex, that's Sami,

UM SAMI IS A PERFECT KAWAII AND NOT TO BLAME FOR ANYTHING


seriously she's one of the friendliest people here she's all over everyone's profiles trying to get to know them if anything people should be following her example js


also i waited too long to post and now there's all these other posts cry

 

[Ⓐaron]

This community has been divided for so long people are just pointing fingers here and no one is owning up to the fact that everyone has been a part of the problem.

Ryu has been owning up to this, and I agree completely with him (and have implied as much in staff, though I probably should have said it publicly as well). I will happily own up to the fact that I've been part of the problem in a lot of cases (already have, in fact), although hopefully I've been better about it in the past couple of months now that I've recognised what the problem is. But depression is a motherfucker and I still haven't been all that I could be,

Apart from that, I agree entirely with the rest of your post, and couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Tifabelle]

Also, Kripey, that I never thank posts was actually brought up as a mark against me, so there is some element of alienation even from my sheer refusal to use the system.

It was used an example of why you are perceived the way you are. It was suggested that you consider it. Same as how people have brought up how thanking certain posts makes them perceived. You haven't changed how you go about it. No one actually cares that you continue to not thank posts.


Also, posts in this thread need to be constructive. If you have nothing significant to add to the discussion, then don't post in it. That includes random comments, gif posts, "stop fighting and shake hands" posts - none of which are constructive.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Right now, let's not minimize, or try to attack the claim or feelings that another person says. Even if you don't believe it, understand it, or what not. It honestly serves no purpose in reaching an understanding to this problem.

If that's how Prince Lex feels regarding that, that's their opinion. An opinion is uniquely personal and subjective. Trying to argue a member's subjective opinion or experience regarding this place isn't going to make it magically positive or even change. The only thing we need to do is try to foster a way of breaching this divide and making EVERYONE here comfortable.

Fighting over what is or isn't the case is a cyclical battle that has no end or purpose. I want this thread to be used for actual civil discussion and ways of moving past this. Some people are more sensitive than others, and what may seem innocuous to one, may seem very jarring or even hurtful to another. I think that's something a lot of members seem to forget.

I do agree with you Zee, that we need to get these feelings and shit out in the open. And we need to seriously just...be nicer to each other and have some modicum of good faith assumed from each other.

 

[Lex]

I worked on a really long post earlier especially for this thread but there's no point in posting it now, a lot of it has already been said and I don't want to start repeating myself.

The "bully victim" feeling I was referring to comes as a direct consequence of abusive, snyde or otherwise inflammatory posts towards members. Said members sometimes came to the IRC to discuss them. The comments in IRC regarding flame posts usually go along the lines of "that wasn't funny. I don't get it. Why would they post something like that when it's so obviously rude and inconsiderate?". That's the way people react to some of the things that have been posted. It is what it is.

I only ever wanted to get along with everyone, but when the above started happening often enough, I just couldn't sit back and watch it anymore. I thought the last time we had a big Skype chat that a lot of those feelings were aired out and things would start to improve, but look where we are now.

I think people need to be more careful about what they post. It's not about not being allowed to make passive jokes, it's about not posting stuff that you know is going to directly aggravate another member. Common defences are "I didn't think it would wind people up as much as it did" but that isn't an excuse IMO. Calling me annoying and whiny, while probably true, is an attack on my person. I didn't take a big huge offence to that because I know how my posts look, so I accept that I might annoy people.

I have actively encouraged people to join IRC (well before any sort of "clique" formed there due to treatment from other members) and to participate in gaming events etc. Hell, even last night I was talking to Tifabelle about doing the movie night so that everyone could join in. Now I feel like by expressing my opinion I've dug a hole for myself that means I'm disliked by a group of members. This goes back to what has been said about people being afraid to post. I made a decision the last time I was flamed to fuck that I'm going to post how I feel no matter what that looks like. If people think that's whiny and annoying, IDGAF - because when I post it's civil and not offensive.

I really do hope we can sort this out. I'm trying to feel positive about it but with the cyclical nature of everything here and all the good people who just left, I'm finding that pretty damn hard.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I noticed Omega brought up the fact that his reports were not being appreciated somewhere. Can't speak for staff as a whole, but I appreciate them. Keep in mind, not every report you make is actionable, and that goes for everyone. Pretty sure you won't give a damn if I bring this up here, but Omega, I know you've made several reports in the past about spam in GD. Unless it's really distractive, we normally let spam slide. Someone was supposed to PM you saying that, if no did then fuck the other staff members. But, if you feel spam in GD is something we should act on more, make a thread in Feedback and see how everyone else feels. And, keep making those reports if you're going to stick around. Staff just needs to deal with it, honestly.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Am I understanding correctly when I say that a large part of this is the direct result of some old issue between Ryu and Rishi...?

Can we just let shit stay in the past?

I think the idea of a movie nice is very good one, maybe people will feel less like there's one team or another.

 

[Celes Chere]

Prince Lex, I'd still like some examples of when members on this Forum have flamed and offended the IRC people? I am separating the groups rn because you openly stated people go there to get away from the Forums. BESIDES this instance, why are people so afraid of posting? I am seriously wondering.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Am I understanding correctly when I say that a large part of this is the direct result of some old issue between Ryu and Rishi...?

Can we just let shit stay in the past?

I think the idea of a movie nice is very good one, maybe people will feel less like there's one team or another.

It has nothing to do with Ryu and Rishi. What happened between Ryu & Rishi is just the sour fruition of the deeper issue at hand here.

 

[Lex]

Tiff I promise to take a look through old threads when I get back from the shops, but considering the number of times we've had this exact same discussion over something "new" like this happening, I really shouldn't have to.

Off the top of my head, the Anti-Thanks thread was totally full of them, drama surrounding Rishi was full of it, and there are loads more dotted here and there. I specifically remember a few in response to Fangu and other people prior to this. One incidence was during a discussion about Fang and Vanille and whether or not they were lesbians.

And it's not just flaming or offensive posts, it's Snyde offhand comments too. Witty little one-liners that belittle the posts they're in response to. Off the top of my head I remember "bi sexual. coz you know, they do exist". While that's not something that's remotely offensive or report-worthy, it's rude to the person who spent time creating a post beforehand. And that one wasn't even directed at me, nor have I ever discussed it. That's just one of the small ones.

Also, I think it was in poor taste to ignore my apology in the Ruins your day thread, which I did just incase it offended anyone.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I seriously hope there's no more bad blood or shit going on with that.

I really want to emphasis that as a board the only way we can move forward and heal, is if we move on and let things go. Grudges are the cancer of social interactions and relationships and we'll always end up at the same place if a grudge is onboard our newly realigned train, departing from the gate.

There ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on and we need to either make it to our stops, or we're gonna get derailed and crash again. And again. And again. This board falling into a shitstorm can only be avoided if everyone wants to. We need to be respectful and just..assume just a modicum of good faith.

I want us all to get along, but staff can only go so far. However, what I want to do as staff, is ensure that our dialogue and discourse on this board is at minimum respectful and decent. This is what we can do. I have no naive aspirations that we'll all hold hands and love each other. But for Christ's sake, can we at least not go for our jugulars weekly?

One thing I think needs to change, and that is being discussed amongst staff, is that we're going to need to have a firmer, more even hand in terms of moderation. Frankly, we've been too lax, and favorites have been picked. This is our fault and we will do our best to fix it. Just like when Dac got the LTD back in check, something similar may need to be done for this board.

 

[Celes Chere]

Thanks, please do that.

Also, I think it was in poor taste to ignore my apology in the Ruins your day thread, which I did just incase it offended anyone.

Who ignored your apology? I believe Aki explained in that very thread why she didn't thank it - because she didn't agree with some of the things you said.
You get so worked up over thanks when it's not important, and it never has been. Thanks don't mean ANYTHING and you might go
"oh well thats easy for you to say you have a lot of thanks"
tbh I dont even know WHY
if all of my thanks were suddenly erased one day I wouldn't be upset about it

also everyone ignored CK's post so uh I guess you should understand how he feels about that???