Am I the only one who found Genesis and Angeal completely...

[Masamune]

You say there are "plot holes" to Sephiroth's character in FFVII, when that just isn't true. Leaving out 'friendship' is NOT a plot-hole. Plot holes are gaps in the story that don't make a lick of sense.

You said Sephiroth freaking out and betraying Shinra doesn't make sense in the original, when it so obviously does. And I don't remember you ever saying this BEFORE Crisis Core. Sephiroth has no idea who he is, and knows Shinra have been keeping things from him. Is the search of self and identity then not a human emotion?

You also said there's no evidence Sephiroth was affected by Jenova, but Sephiroth clutches his head and convulses similarly to Cloud when he was getting possessed (albeit BY Sephiroth). It coincides very nicely with Sephiroth then freaking out and slashing up the place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Crisis Core had no right to show different sides of Sephiroth's character. It's that they were just trying to find ways to plug Genesis into the middle of everything.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If we're assuming the intention of Crisis Core was to portray a genial and human Sephiroth, and your argument is, is that FFVII already gives us enough for us to figure out the rest of Sephiroth's past including him as a human...then it's yes, there's a plot hole there because thinking of him as a feeling, caring human when FFVII shows him callously telling Zack to forget about the death of that poor trooper doesn't make a lick of sense. That makes him appear more as a cold, sociopath than a human. Not much showing of a different side.

And Sephiroth's madness in FFVII works in a loose sense if you analyze him as a villain and just assume he's crazy and unhinged to begin with due to his alien biology. But I again raise the point that if he was this nuts and on edge already, how did he become a respected, popular and influential SOLDIER in the first place? How did he have Zack's friendship? What are people seeing in him?

Either he was nuts/disturbed/evil in the first place (which is incongruent with his popularity and distinguished reputation) and just hiding it...or he just "snapped" (which I already expressed was unrealistic characterization to begin with) and we're not shown or given explanation as to why the other common sense red flags didn't clue him in, in the first place.

You're ignoring my points in terms of Genesis's placement. He's not just there to "plug" anything. He has a specific role to fill in the narrative's intent to put Sephiroth in Cloud's place. To portray the bitter irony of Sephiroth being the one thing he despised most: a puppet. It's a sick role reversal that adds more depth to Sephiroths' history and the tragedy of Zack's loss of a friend and his life.

It's more than just "Sephiroth freaks out at Nibelheim cause he's a lab rat and discovers the truth." It's the slow, and insidious progression of Sephiroth's life and truths falling apart before his eyes. I don't get how much more of an explanation and a themed telling of his past you want.

 

[Masamune]

Sephiroth does show his human side in FFVII - that's the point! The guy questions himself and breaks down. If he was really a cold sociopath that wouldn't have happened. It would have been "I'm a monster? No shit!" *slashyslashyslash*

I would never call Sephiroth a "caring, genial" character in the first place. He obviously cared about himself and who he was, but it was something buried underneath his status and persona. Sephiroth was an aloof man. Another layer could have been added to his character without turning him into Genesis' vulnerable little puppet, y'know.

You can glam it up and say it's some witty plot twist that Sephiroth is now the puppet, but to me it's SE trying to make Genesis as important as possible but at Sephiroth's expense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's not much of a human side. That's him just selfishly angsting over his existence. It's not really a positive human trait; any sentient and free thinking being would do the same.

I should probably clarify and say I mean, his kinder, more noble side. The side that is human and good. His vulnerability is one thing and yes, the original showed it, but that's not all there is to Sephiroth before he becomes a terror.

Sephiroth is aloof, but he *is* caring. He cares for his friends and specifically disobeys Shinra orders to try to save Angeal's life. He refuses the mission to capture and take out Genesis because he can't be brought to turn his blade to a friend, and instead, recommends Zack because he believes Zack could bring Genesis around. Again, why would Zack befriend a cold, aloof, guy that has no social skills or positive traits? Zack isn't the type to befriend assholes.

I mean, you don't get much more caring than that before Sephiroth ends up being a true, blue hero. Just because you're aloof, and solitary doesn't make you bad or incapable of caring.

And how is it at Sephiroth's expense? Is it really that hard to believe Sephiroth would have a weakness BEFORE he became a god? He still had a human heart and feelings. That is the Sephiroth of the past. And this Sephiroth has long since died so it really changes nothing at all regarding the Sephiroth depicted in FFVII. His character hasn't been harmed in the least. He's the master now, and has surpassed Genesis in every, single way. As a monster, as a warrior, and as "The One-Winged Angel."

 

[Masamune]

Self-destruction is just as human as compassion. "To err is human..." and all that. Sephiroth's despair in Nibelheim wasn't positive, but it was human. There's the difference.

I have no objection to Sephiroth having alliances, and never said otherwise. Aloof characters are often complemented by other attributes, such as honour or loyalty. I was saying Sephiroth should not be "genial", and that FFVII leaving out that sort of thing was not a plot-hole.

You say nothing has essentially changed, but CC now gives the impression Sephiroth was cattle prodded into madness by Genesis. For me, that feels completely unnecessary, and as I said before an excuse to give Genesis the spotlight.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cattle prodded into madness? LMAO, that's a funny term.

But seriously, it has nothing to do with Genesis. You're only fixating on Genesis because he's "the new character" and he's influencing the original. Look at it objectively and you'll see quite honestly nothing changes the depiction of Sephiroth as a villain. He's not diminished at all, because he's no longer human and all Genesis did was make his rival stronger in the end.

Sephiroth being *cough* "cattle prodded" into madness is a bit deceiving. You're putting Genesis as the ENTIRE cause of Sephiroth's madness. He isn't. There's Shinra, the loss of *friends* (i.e. Angeal as well), his sense of purposelessness, and the questioning of Shinra's unethical scientific practices.

You put all that together, with Genesis tempting him the cold, bitter truth and leading him to end, and you get the result. It's much more dynamic and complex than just "LOL GENESIS GAVE HIM THE CRAZIES."

 

[Masamune]

Genesis didn't even need to be at Nibelheim. Once Sephiroth discovered Shinra's dirty secret, it already put everything in motion.

Yeah, Sephiroth losing comrades and questioning the morality of Shinra does substantiate his character but Genesis still feels forced to me. You could have all of that and still not need him popping up with his poetic tosh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You kinda lose the whole element of Sephiroth being on the other end of the strings though. That's what makes it even more interesting and so ironic. There has to be a puppet master, and who better than one of his friends and rival to pull the strings?

And again, I'm not arguing that Genesis was perfect. He wasn't, but really...any new character is going to feel forced somewhat because they were never in the original to begin with. You have to be open to new faces and new roles when new installments are made. They bring fresh blood and new perspectives to events we already know.

And thankfully Genesis isn't done yet. I'm sure they'll give him more words to say that are his owns and not just LOVELESS whenever he appears again. Hopefully they'll be good words but we'll see.

 

[Masamune]

I think I prefer the circumstances themselves affecting Sephiroth without having a third party. I know I said it before, but it's "badass decay". In an attempt to give another side to the villain, they make him more and more vulnerable and so he loses some of what made him badass in the first place.

 

[Makoeyes987]

"Badass decay" is just making a badass human.

A true "badass" doesn't exist. Everyone has a weakness or had a starting point before they were badass. Before Sephiroth was the cold, unstoppable, and nigh immortal demi-god, he was a vulnerable *person* who had friends, and enjoyed his SOLDIER life for what it was. Every badass has a point of origin where they weren't badass.

Even Kenshiro. Yeah, you heard me.

 

[Masamune]

Actually, a better example would be Raoh. That guy's had two movies, a manga, and now a tv series where they've tried to turn him into an anti-hero. >_<

 

[ForceStealer]

I dunno about decay, but

Whether your words are lies intended to deceive me, or the truth I have searched for all my life, one thing remains true. You will rot.

I thought that was a pretty badass line. And remember Masamune, even if it was an excuse to show Genesis, they're trying to set up a new villain so that they don't have to rehash old ones which I know you hate.

Also,

Lazard was Shinra's bastard son

WHAT?! Where did it hint that? lol

 

[Cat Rage Room]

u kidin me?

You really didn't know that?

 

[ForceStealer]

No I'm ashamed to admit I must've missed that...

 

[Strangelove]

There's a woman outside the church who talks about President Shinra's mistress who died, and their bastard son. Plus Lazard's emails are filled with stuff about grudges and bad families

 

[Makoeyes987]

Someone needs to actually read our FFVII Compilation translations on the site. :'(:

 

[Nocturne]

Im a little late to the party, blame it on college, but I have some points to make in regards to Genesis.

First off, they didnt really flesh ANY of the characters out in Crisis Core. We didnt even really get to see what Zack was like compared to Vincent in DoC or pretty much any other character in FF7. So to expect to get all this deep backround on Genesis or Angeal in Crisis Core is really not a good leg to stand on. Especially since the script was cut almost literally in half.

About Gackt being involved, he wasnt the one who came to them and said put me in the game. It was Square Enix's idea. They were thinking of a character and though hey, he would be good for it. They didnt just make up the character for Gackt because he wanted money or wanted to be thrown in the game. In fact, Gackt himself is a fan of the FF series and Ive read interviews of him talking about the games. He isnt one of those pop celebrities who have no mind and just spend money on things. He's actually a pretty big anime and videogame fan.

That said, Gackt did have a say in some parts of the character (the color of the clothes etc) but it was only when Nomura and the others would discuss the character by coming to him and presenting stuff, and if Nomura heard an idea he liked more, then they would tweak the character a little.

Like you said, he isnt completely developed, and really how could he be? He was in two games for a total of what maybe 12 hours. Thats only a fraction of how long FF7 actually is. They gave him a purpose in Crisis Core, well more than one actually. To show Sephiroth did have friends before everything happened, to show some more backstory into the experiments going on during the Jenova project, and to set up Deepground and what will come after it. To say he has no point in the series is kind of baseless.

If you dont like the character, thats cool. But to say the character was just a fan service icon is completely untrue. The story was written in advance, the most that would have happened is that the character of Genesis may have had a different name and looked different, but the role the character would have played would be the same.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I totally agree with you but...

How did we not get see Zack fleshed out in Crisis Core when every, single, thing was from his perspective? Hell, the gameplay worked in Zack's experiences and interactions with people. And comparing Zack to Vincent? Where does that come from?

 

[Nocturne]

I dont mean as Zack and Vincent are similar characters, but Vincent got alot more focus in his game, then Zack did in his.

All of it was from Zack's perspective, but did we REALLY get to see alot of details about Zack from the game. I dont really think so. We knew he was in solider, and knew that he was connected to Aeris and they were pretty much dating, we knew he died and even knew how he died before going into the game.

We got to see a few interactions and what his personality type was. Not really a real detailed explanation or look into who he really was for a main character of a game. I mean, they showed enough to make it a good game, but no more than that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No....Zack got more focus. For one, Crisis Core's storyline is a helluva lot longer than DC's, and Vincent didn't have the whole DMW thing that offered further backstory and events regarding Zack's relationship with his friends.

No man, You can't tell me DC gave more insight into Vincent when 2/3'rds of what DC told us was crap we already knew about him.

Yes we saw a Zack a lot about Zack. His hopes, dreams, relationships, conflict regarding working with Shinra, and more.

DC just gave us a repeat of Vincent and his involvement with Lucrecia. The only new stuff we got out of him was him dealing with what Chaos was, and his reaction to DG and Shelke. DC essentially gave us nothing new.

 

[Nocturne]

DoC did show Vincents father and how when he was a turk, everything that happened to him.

I guess you're right. Im going to have to play it again.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm pretty much going to have to agree with Mako. Zack got a HELL of a lot of exposition in CC, and even Cloud, Sephiroth, Lazard, Aeris, Cissnei, etc. Genesis, and Angeal to a lesser degree, did not, at least in my opinion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We only got sparse flashbacks of Vincent as a turk, meeting Lucrecia. We hardly even saw them interact. And it wasn't anything really NEW. We saw it to a degree in FFVII.

And we got nothing on Vincent's dad Grimoire. We only saw him. We don't know how they were as father and son, what he was like, how well he worked with Lucrecia. Nothing.

That's nothing at all compared to what CC showed us.

 

[Masamune]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg10583#msg10583 date=1232666855]And we got nothing on Vincent's dad Grimoire. We only saw him. We don't know how they were as father and son, what he was like, how well he worked with Lucrecia. Nothing. [/quote]

I was expecting more of Grimoire...

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Nocturne link=topic=279.msg10554#msg10554 date=1232664234]
Im a little late to the party, blame it on college, but I have some points to make in regards to Genesis.

First off, they didnt really flesh ANY of the characters out in Crisis Core. We didnt even really get to see what Zack was like compared to Vincent in DoC or pretty much any other character in FF7. So to expect to get all this deep backround on Genesis or Angeal in Crisis Core is really not a good leg to stand on. Especially since the script was cut almost literally in half.

About Gackt being involved, he wasnt the one who came to them and said put me in the game. It was Square Enix's idea. They were thinking of a character and though hey, he would be good for it. They didnt just make up the character for Gackt because he wanted money or wanted to be thrown in the game. In fact, Gackt himself is a fan of the FF series and Ive read interviews of him talking about the games. He isnt one of those pop celebrities who have no mind and just spend money on things. He's actually a pretty big anime and videogame fan.

That said, Gackt did have a say in some parts of the character (the color of the clothes etc) but it was only when Nomura and the others would discuss the character by coming to him and presenting stuff, and if Nomura heard an idea he liked more, then they would tweak the character a little.

Like you said, he isnt completely developed, and really how could he be? He was in two games for a total of what maybe 12 hours. Thats only a fraction of how long FF7 actually is. They gave him a purpose in Crisis Core, well more than one actually. To show Sephiroth did have friends before everything happened, to show some more backstory into the experiments going on during the Jenova project, and to set up Deepground and what will come after it. To say he has no point in the series is kind of baseless.

If you dont like the character, thats cool. But to say the character was just a fan service icon is completely untrue. The story was written in advance, the most that would have happened is that the character of Genesis may have had a different name and looked different, but the role the character would have played would be the same.
[/quote]

I agree with most of this post. Cept the Zack bit. He got a bit more focus, but most of it wasn't all that substantial imo. But that may be due to the fact that I never really gave a crap to him.