Avatar: The Last Airbender & Korra (SPOILERS)

[Carlie]

But I want to see Asami and Korra interact more. Also more Meelo.

For you:

Also this thread needs more Korra/Asami

edit:That's more like it, thank you Zealkin.

 

[Theozilla]

I find Meelo adorable and terrifying at the same time.

 

[Carlie]

He's a leaf on the wind. Watch how he soars.

 

[Zealkin]

LOL

 

[Carlie]

That would've made that episode a billion times better.

 

[Splintered]

 

[Theozilla]

Cross-over Korrasami

 

[Tennyo]

Group hug!

 

[Shademp]

My thoughts on why Korra likes Mako:

Korra is very competitive and enjoys a challenge. The fact that Mako does not fall head over heels for her, even after hearing she is the Avatar, and acts openly dismissive of her when they first meet must be speaking to Korra's "conquer all" streak.

That plus he is strong, skilled, smart and attractive. Oh, add his tragic backstory to that which makes her feel sorry for him and want to comfort him.

 

[looneymoon]

i'm continuing the discussion cuz i'm a rebel.

Our point is that companies often pull perfectly good shows because they get wind of a demographic boycott that makes them fucking scared of losing money and the bottom line is profitability for these companies...

What we've said is that EXECUTIVES ARE FUCKING MORONS AND THINK THEY WON'T. Adventure time is a step to proving to those execs that they can. Til the execs realize this, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO ACT AS THOUGH THEY WON'T.

Oh was that the argument? Well no wonder I had trouble wrapping my head around it because that is pretty much a no-brainer.

as far as the original thing being discussed - it was the idea of why it wouldn't be "too much" if korra was, hypothetically, a lesbian. which is silly because it's not like there's a quota. but then somehow that came to oh well cartoons are generally meant for kids and gays are offensive so it's an issue if there's gay in a kid's show. but the thing is, by even treating it like it is an issue (even if you are just trying to dissect the motives on the part of nick execs) is an issue!

to be honest as much as i hate to be one of those ~90s kids~ there has been generally a LOT less risk taking in cartoons after the "Second Golden Age" animation period. there's probably a lot of reasons i could say why this is, but i think we're finally starting to pull out of that adult/child binary funk with shows like korra and adventure time. even still, it's really awful when you have a network showing hesitancy over a show like korra just because she's a female lead. let alone a female poc. would we be having the same conversation if someone hypothetically suggested aang to be a girl? when does it suddenly become "too much" when a character represents a wide variety of minority groups? when did cartoons suddenly become an outlet for strict conservativism when previously cartoons were even more controversial than they are now?

and i realize the posts and the sentiments in regards to that post aren't meant to be negative and more explanatory as to why it would be difficult to get through censors. but the thing is, everyone knows the fear of marketability exists. when it comes to something like fear it of course has to be acknowledged and dissected before it can be overcome. we could sit here all day saying how much it sucks that cartoon execs are dumb. but as a society we are, or at least should be, way beyond that assessment point in regards to homosexuality. even in cartoons. as far as specific examples go - Sailor Moon had a lot of gay, even with all the censored bits in the US version, that was still very blatant to young kids. a more recent example would be my friend's niece insisting who of her own accord refers to Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy as "girlfriends." we are at a point where we can push forward with these things without it hindering the market. and if the execs aren't hammering down that fact, then its our job as an audience to have a voice.

i mean ffs if we have no trouble accepting a female or poc as a lead without saying it's "too much" or "controversial" then we shouldn't be putting those labels on homosexuality, which has been happening through this whole discussion. like i said before, the fact that is referenced as though it is an issue IS the issue in the first place.

so idk this has been way longer than i intended to be but i guess what i'm trying to say is this: saying things like "well it's controversial so it probably won't happen and that sucks" is well and good and everything but it's honestly... a really weak argument to make? not to mention it strikes as an extremely passive stance on something that is in fact really important and affects a lot of people in very serious ways.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

My thoughts on why Korra likes Mako:

Korra is very competitive and enjoys a challenge. The fact that Mako does not fall head over heels for her, even after hearing she is the Avatar, and acts openly dismissive of her when they first meet must be speaking to Korra's "conquer all" streak.

That plus he is strong, skilled, smart and attractive. Oh, add his tragic backstory to that which makes her feel sorry for him and want to comfort him.

so why doesn't she fall for tahno since he has basically all of those.

heck i dont even like that reason cause it seems kinda creepy. 'YOU DON'T LIKE ME. I WILL THEREFORE FORCE YOU TO DO SO' wts

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Tortured soul syndrome
Worked for cloud, it'll work for mako.

 

[Carlie]

I've heard Meelo used fartbend in When Extremes Meet, someone must show me this.

 

[Ryushikaze]

i'm continuing the discussion cuz i'm a rebel.



Oh was that the argument? Well no wonder I had trouble wrapping my head around it because that is pretty much a no-brainer.

If it's a no brainer, then why did you have trouble? Your choice of terms confounds.

as far as the original thing being discussed - it was the idea of why it wouldn't be "too much" if korra was, hypothetically, a lesbian. which is silly because it's not like there's a quota. but then somehow that came to oh well cartoons are generally meant for kids and gays are offensive so it's an issue if there's gay in a kid's show. but the thing is, by even treating it like it is an issue (even if you are just trying to dissect the motives on the part of nick execs) is an issue!

I agree entirely that it's an issue. I in no way, shape, or form, endorse what I see TV executives doing in this regards.

to be honest as much as i hate to be one of those ~90s kids~ there has been generally a LOT less risk taking in cartoons after the "Second Golden Age" animation period. there's probably a lot of reasons i could say why this is, but i think we're finally starting to pull out of that adult/child binary funk with shows like korra and adventure time. even still, it's really awful when you have a network showing hesitancy over a show like korra just because she's a female lead. let alone a female poc. would we be having the same conversation if someone hypothetically suggested aang to be a girl? when does it suddenly become "too much" when a character represents a wide variety of minority groups? when did cartoons suddenly become an outlet for strict conservativism when previously cartoons were even more controversial than they are now?

Strictly speaking, the only 'too much' at the moment seems to be openly gay characters. I say that in part because AT was able to get away with everything else, but the AT recaps going more overt with Marcy being attracted to PB got the person in charge of those fired. And yes, this absolutely sucks, but that seems to be where we are as far as gay and lesbian acceptance on stuff that is even only in the most nominal sense 'for kids.'

and i realize the posts and the sentiments in regards to that post aren't meant to be negative and more explanatory as to why it would be difficult to get through censors. but the thing is, everyone knows the fear of marketability exists. when it comes to something like fear it of course has to be acknowledged and dissected before it can be overcome. we could sit here all day saying how much it sucks that cartoon execs are dumb. but as a society we are, or at least should be, way beyond that assessment point in regards to homosexuality. even in cartoons. as far as specific examples go - Sailor Moon had a lot of gay, even with all the censored bits in the US version, that was still very blatant to young kids.

It was blatant despite the attempts to censor it, though. Though it's obvious the two characters are still gay, the censored version tried to pretend they weren't. It closeted their lesbianism. Yes, kids shows can get stuff past the censors and the reactionaries, they do it a lot. It's having it on the forefront that seems to be the issue.

a more recent example would be my friend's niece insisting who of her own accord refers to Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy as "girlfriends." we are at a point where we can push forward with these things without it hindering the market. and if the execs aren't hammering down that fact, then its our job as an audience to have a voice.

I agree, and I think we should. But what we should and what I think what we can expect are currently at odds with each other, since we don't wield our power as the viewer directly. Execs, the folks sadly responsible for greenlighting the shows we like, need to be told that we not only aren't opposed, but want more strong gay characters (or perhaps we should phrase that as 'strong characters who happen to be gay, because I think if we phrase it the first way we'd wind up with a caricature, not a character.)

i mean ffs if we have no trouble accepting a female or poc as a lead without saying it's "too much" or "controversial" then we shouldn't be putting those labels on homosexuality, which has been happening through this whole discussion. like i said before, the fact that is referenced as though it is an issue IS the issue in the first place.

This is true, but pretending that it isn't thought of as an issue when discussing the mindset of those who are responsible for getting shows on TV and view it as an issue would be overlooking the point.
It would be like pretending fundamentalists don't see atheism or evolution as a problem when trying to figure out how to get them to see it as not one.

so idk this has been way longer than i intended to be but i guess what i'm trying to say is this: saying things like "well it's controversial so it probably won't happen and that sucks" is well and good and everything but it's honestly... a really weak argument to make? not to mention it strikes as an extremely passive stance on something that is in fact really important and affects a lot of people in very serious ways.

It wasn't an attempt at making an argument, but a way of explaining why it's unlikely at the moment to expect a kid's show to have an openly gay character from the start (as opposed to closeting or stealthing it in).

Something does need to be done about it. No one in this discussion disagrees. The problem is 'why isn't it' is the wrong question to ask going forwards- regardless of what you're trying to make reality- it's how do we achieve the reality we seek, and that's a considerably trickier question, especially here.

As mentioned, TV execs often view things in terms of profitability and not offending the base.
It needs to be demonstrated that an openly gay character doesn't hurt profitability. AT is helping in this regards, though it could go further.
Alternately, it needs to be demonstrated that the base does not mind gay characters.
We are not the base, and nor, actually, are the kids. It's the parents. Though the kids watch the shows, it's the parents with the purchasing power, and so they are the ones the execs 'pander' to by avoiding conflict and controversies that are perceived as risking that demographic.

As for how we convince them of these, I'm at a loss. At least I have a plan on how to convince parents, but execs only respond to ratings, product sales, and letter campaigns. Now, maybe a letter campaign demanding more equality about gay and lesbian characters in shows might have a result. Dunno. It's a start.

 

[Zee]

If it's a no brainer, then why did you have trouble? Your choice of terms confounds.

because that's not really a counterpoint?? we're saying how it would be nice if korra was gay and we get "yeah but you know how censors are" well no shit but that's not a stance

The problem is 'why isn't it' is the wrong question to ask going forwards- regardless of what you're trying to make reality- it's how do we achieve the reality we seek, and that's a considerably trickier question, especially here.

you just put it out there and tell people to suck it up

the fans will come out in support of it without prompting. when the marcy/pb scandal happened, fans phoned in their support, wrote letters, made their feelings known loudly and widely through the use of the internet and their blogs. i don't think natasha knew what she was starting when she drew her fionna and cake sketch, but due to fans demand it not only became an episode in the series, but the most viewed episode of the entire show. marcy/pb started out as nothing but natasha's art she posted on her blog and fans let her know every day how much they appreciated it until they had an episode and shout out in the comics to their relationship (long story short, nat is awesome).

going outside the animated medium for a minute, but look at how vocal the femshep fandom was until EA finally realized, whoa, we can put a chick on the cover of a game and people will buy it?! GET OUTTA TOWN GUYS LET'S GET NUTS

because the fans wanted something outside what was perceived most profitable or marketable and they made it happen by being loud and angry

you don't have to force any sort of change because it's already happening. the great thing about the internet is that it's given fandom a louder voice than ever before, and one that producers/execs/writers can easily hear. for every network that wants to dig in its heels, there will be another that will put them to shame. what doesn't help is the passive shrugging of shoulders, "this is how it just is" attitude.

 

[Ryushikaze]

because that's not really a counterpoint?? we're saying how it would be nice if korra was gay and we get "yeah but you know how censors are" well no shit but that's not a stance

I didn't say it was.

you just put it out there and tell people to suck it up

And if you CAN get it out there, more power to you. The issue, however, is in getting it out there openly.

the fans will come out in support of it without prompting. when the marcy/pb scandal happened, fans phoned in their support, wrote letters, made their feelings known loudly and widely through the use of the internet and their blogs. i don't think natasha knew what she was starting when she drew her fionna and cake sketch, but due to fans demand it not only became an episode in the series, but the most viewed episode of the entire show. marcy/pb started out as nothing but natasha's art she posted on her blog and fans let her know every day how much they appreciated it until they had an episode and shout out in the comics to their relationship (long story short, nat is awesome).

going outside the animated medium for a minute, but look at how vocal the femshep fandom was until EA finally realized, whoa, we can put a chick on the cover of a game and people will buy it?! GET OUTTA TOWN GUYS LET'S GET NUTS

because the fans wanted something outside what was perceived most profitable or marketable and they made it happen by being loud and angry

And that's what reactionaries ALSO do, and there's something of a grim reality that progressives are less likely to be offended by the lack of a gay character than reactionaries are by the inclusion of one and executives are going to plan around that for their profitability.

And yes, Korra fans can also do this, but they'll have to do it in a way the execs understand, and in enough number to convince the folks in charge that there is reason enough to make the change. But that's all future concerns. What this started out as was examining why Nickelodeon -might have- balked at the thought of putting an openly gay main character into one of their shows, why it -might have- been too much for them to have an ethnic, non feminine, lesbian main character.

This isn't a defeatist attitude, this is talking about what was v what could be. The changes to ME and AT were a result of a fan push to change to what was already there. In the case of ME, that took two sequels to do. During the runup to Korra, was there a big concerted effort by the fans to express to the creators that they wanted Korra to be anything other than hetero? If not, then the scenarios aren't the same. But going forward, sure, let's let them and the execs know of the demand.

you don't have to force any sort of change because it's already happening. the great thing about the internet is that it's given fandom a louder voice than ever before, and one that producers/execs/writers can easily hear. for every network that wants to dig in its heels, there will be another that will put them to shame. what doesn't help is the passive shrugging of shoulders, "this is how it just is" attitude.

I don't think anyone in this has a 'this is how it just is' attitude. Not me, not Tenny, not Zilla. All we were trying to do, and correct me Tenny and Theo if I'm not speaking for you, was try and comprehend and outline the reasons why a company might balk at creating an openly gay character as their lead. I, certainly, was only trying to get to the heart of what keeps TV networks from pushing boundaries.

Things are changing, and fan output can certainly help change things, but it can only do so going forward, and in the case of Nickelodeon, you also have to convince the company you're worth listening to. Fans did that with AT and ME had a leg up by being the expected customer base. We aren't that for Nickelodeon shows. That's not saying we need to give up, that means we need to work harder and smarter to be heard over the people Nick is listening to by default.

 

[Zealkin]

And yes, Korra fans can also do this, but they'll have to do it in a way the execs understand, and in enough number to convince the folks in charge that there is reason enough to make the change. But that's all future concerns. What this started out as was examining why Nickelodeon -might have- balked at the thought of putting an openly gay main character into one of their shows, why it -might have- been too much for them to have an ethnic, non feminine, lesbian main character.

Basically what Ryu said. I wasn't trying to say that I personally thought that having all of those things in a character would be "too much" but the executives at Nick probably would have. Not only that but the thought of "let's make this protagonist gay" probably didn't even pop up in Bryke's head THAT is the problem. Having gay/minority protagponists is NOT mainstream yet.

I wouldn't care if Korra was a lesbian and parents were complaining, I would still watch it, but possible complaints are what executives look at. Anything possibly detrimental to their means of making money is looked at, and this would have been the case if Korra was a lesbian.
Sailor moon was toned down, and so were a lot of anime that had "explicit" scenes, Yugioh anyone?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Anyone else read the last page and think

 

[Theozilla]

New clip of episode 9 from ToomZone:
http://www.toonzone.net/news/articl...-from-out-of-the-past-premiering-june-9-2012/

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The problem I have with books/shows/movies/whatever that have minorities (whatever type) in them is that too often the characters are "minority characters" not "characters that happen to be part of a minority". All to often, the "minority" is the entire point of the character and I start wondering if that is the reason why the character is there in the first place.

 

[Theozilla]

The problem I have with books/shows/movies/whatever that have minorities (whatever type) in them is that too often the characters are "minority characters" not "characters that happen to be part of a minority". All to often, the "minority" is the entire point of the character and I start wondering if that is the reason why the character is there in the first place.

But surely you don't feel that way about the A:TLA and LOK characters, right? And sometimes you are right that some characters do get written that way but I think it has gotten progressively better.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

No, definitely not talking about A:TOK and LOK characters! And yeah, they've gotten better. It's just sometimes "minority" gets shoved down your throat with no tact at all and that really doesn't help the way people view whatever "minority".

 

[Tennyo]

Not Another Teen Movie says it best.

IMHO that kind of stereotype is no better than not having a minority character at all. There are some shows and movies that are getting better about shying away from this, but some that it's just like, ugh wtf is this...

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yeah, Scott Westerfeild makes mention of it (obligatory minorities) in his book "So Yesterday" (one of the more interesting novels about setting trends). I think he called it "The Missing Black Woman Formation"

“I was kind of bugged by the missing-black-woman formation.”

Mandy blinked. “The what?”

Jen shrugged uncomfortably, feeling the eyes on her.

“Yeah, I know what you mean,” I said, even though I didn’t.

Jen took a slow breath, collecting her thoughts. “You know, the guy on the motorcycle was black. The guy on the bike was white. The woman was white. That’s the usual bunch, you know? Like everybody’s accounted for? Except not really. I call that the missing-black-woman formation. It kind of happens a lot."

Spoiler: example

 

[looneymoon]