Avatar: The Last Airbender & Korra (SPOILERS)

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Adventure Time/Legend of Korra mash up
eXARV.jpg
no, korra should be flame princess. it is known.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee

why would i want korra when asami is already my anime wife


also

here is a really well thought out, non-bashy post about storytelling arcs and legend of korra. it's worth a read through even if you liked the finale, imo.
 
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Zealkin

Guest
Okay I've pretty much given up defending the plot line, because I learned the other day that Mike and Bryan themselves chose 12 episodes. They weren't given it, they chose to keep it short. >.> Why fix something that isn't broken?

They're much better with more episodes and a longer season and I hope they know that now and get more writers to help them out. I still enjoyed the finale, despite all the flaws however, good analysis btw.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
I hope they know that now and get more writers to help them out.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. ATLA had an entire team of writers. With Korra, Byran and Mike were basically doing everything themselves.

12 episodes wouldn't have been so bad (even if they were short the usual 20) if they just had some more help. I hear they are getting the writing team back for season 2 though, so here's to hoping?
 
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Zealkin

Guest
Yes to hoping indeed, well atla had a similar kinda things going on, season 2 was leaps and bounds better than season 1, maybe it's a pattern?
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
I think you hit the nail on the head here. ATLA had an entire team of writers. With Korra, Byran and Mike were basically doing everything themselves.

12 episodes wouldn't have been so bad (even if they were short the usual 20) if they just had some more help. I hear they are getting the writing team back for season 2 though, so here's to hoping?

Theyaretheyaretheyaretheyare????? :excited::excited::excited::excited::excited::excited::excited:

Where did you hear it?? Pleasepleaseplease source?????

_____


BTW, a really good analysis of the problems has inspired me to write my own views on the show. I love it, but this doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws.

Would any of you be interested in reading it once I finish it? I want to TALK about this, a LOT. But, I'm not tumblr famous, I'm not Korra famous, so I fear I won't be able to talk about my views.:sadpanda: Not to mention that it's an unpopular opinion (NO. HATE. I have ZERO hate for ANY of the characters).

Would you?


EDIT:

here is a really well thought out, non-bashy post about storytelling arcs and legend of korra. it's worth a read through even if you liked the finale, imo.

Allow me to disagree with you with the non-bashy part, for this. It's a good analysis, but it fails for Mako, who, I strongly believe, is a victim to the bad writing as the plot and the story were.
 
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Zealkin

Guest
I would read your analysis, just post it on here when you're done!
Yeah the writer was just so frustrated with Mako they ended up bashing him a bit, I do admit my favorite Mako moments were in episodes 2 and 3, though they drastically changed him after that though.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Okay I've pretty much given up defending the plot line, because I learned the other day that Mike and Bryan themselves chose 12 episodes. They weren't given it, they chose to keep it short. >.> Why fix something that isn't broken?

They're much better with more episodes and a longer season and I hope they know that now and get more writers to help them out. I still enjoyed the finale, despite all the flaws however, good analysis btw.
Can you specify what you mean exactly you mean by they "chose 12 episodes"
I know Mike and Bryan have said in interviews that they prefer the shorter seasons format (is this what your saying?) and that they were given the 12 episode first before the show was renewed for the second season. But are you trying to say something else?

I think you hit the nail on the head here. ATLA had an entire team of writers. With Korra, Byran and Mike were basically doing everything themselves.

12 episodes wouldn't have been so bad (even if they were short the usual 20) if they just had some more help. I hear they are getting the writing team back for season 2 though, so here's to hoping?
Also why are people assuming that having more writers would have changed much of the 1st season for the better? Episode writers don't decide on the major plot points, the love triangle, Amon being a Bloodbender, Korra learning to Airbend in battle and being healed by the Avatar State would have all still have happened in the 1st season. The episodes might have been presented slightly differently but all the important plot points would have still been controlled by Bryke.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
here

As for this critique, while I do think it is very well written and the author is very clear in his/her arguments (although I do agree with Zealkin that they get a little character-bashy towards Mako), I still disagree with the majority of it.

One, we were given an answer as to why Mako and Bolin had different bending elements from the start, they came from a mixed ethnic union, it is that simple. I will concede that Bolin did not have very much of a character arc, he did however IMO have good characterization. Also disagree that Mako’s feelings were shoehorned in anymore than any other character’s romantic feelings, and that his purpose was only “which chick should I bang.” IMO his defining goals/traits were “how can I protect/aid the people I care about?”, which he succeeded in doing in some ways but also struggled/failed with in others.

Then I disagree that she used/accessed airbending through rage and an aggressive point, she accessed it because she wanted to protect Mako, a desire to protect someone one loves is not a aggressive behavior IMO. And Tenzin said from the beginning airbending would likely eventually just “click” with her. Also it fits very well with
the Chakra analysis.
She was able to airbend when Mako was in danger of losing his bending. Which is the chakra that is opened by love? THE AIR CHAKRA, located in the heart. The first 3 chakras deal with Earth, Water and Fire respectively. When this chakra opened, it gave Korra her spiritual connection to the air element, and that did the trick.

Additionally: Why does airbending seem to be the most effective element to use against bloodbending? Because it is the opposite of bloodbending. Air is freedom, and what is bloodbending if not enslavement?

I also disagree that she achieves the Avatar state and energybending through no spiritual development. Aang's statement that in her lowest moments, she was open to the greatest change, was just basically IMO summing up the way she had become unknowingly more and more spiritual through life experience. The chakra analysis shows this very well IMO:
The plot is symbolic of how the chakras are opened, by dealing with fear, guilt, shame, grief (and love), truth and lies, illusion and attachment. Aang's chakras were blocked by all his experiences and the fact that he had responded in the manner that would lock them up. Korra on the other hand face similar situations but responded in the way that would open them.
* * * * *
Aang's statement that Korra becomes open to change when she hits her lowest points pretty much sums up how she got the grip over spirituality and airbending. Korra's very first lines in Season 1 suggests that her ego was far too high above the balance point and it was totally fuelled by the fact that she was Avatar. Throughout the series, she's increasingly being brought down to earth and becomes more and more spiritual. What's notable is that when she is helpless and cannot fight her way out does she end up connecting with spirituality and Aang. However, it's only when she hits her absolute low, with her very identity as the Avatar being broken and she realizes that she is truly no different from any other bender is her pride finally shattered, and then she turns spiritual. Doesn't it remind you of a certain Siddhartha Gautama, who became the Buddha after that one moment where he realized that he too was not above death, old age and suffering?
Analysis of symbolic chakra openings through Korra’s character development:
The Earth Chakra was opened when Korra learnt to face her fear of dealing with Amon. The Water Chakra was opened when she was able to overcome her guilt when she got over the love triangle by forgiveness and got them through into the final, though it might have even happened before that when she got the knack of the airbending movements. The Fire Chakra was opened up when she reconciled with Tenzin over her shame of not being able to airbend or being spiritually weak, and when she finally connected with Aang. The Air Chakra was obviously opened by love, and I mean Mako. The Sound Chakra was opened when she understood Tarrlok and Amon's true identities, and Amon building his whole movement on lying over his backstory. The Hiroshi Sato reveal also definitely had something to do with it. The light Chakra was probably opened somewhere between Korra realizing that she could still airbend and Amon's makeup job and waterbending powers exposed. The air chakra was probably fully open in that moment where Mako was about to lose his bending, which is why she could Airbend. Finally the last chakra was unblocked when she was planning to leave everyone and told Mako to leave her for good, despite the fact that both truly loved each other by this point - probably she was contemplating suicide, now that she could no longer do her job as the Avatar and called Aang, likely with the intention of taking her away to the spirit world, which is when she gave up attachment. That's when all her chakras were open and her spiritual connection became truly complete. While it's difficult to often pinpoint the incident as the cause of opening her chakras, it's clear that following Character Development Korra already very spiritual by the end and had successfully opened all her chakras allowed her to master the Avatar state. All that was now needed was a little help from Aang to energybend her broken connections.

As for Amon being ruined in the finale I disagree with that as well. Amon had been established as having been using his bloodbending from the very beginning, Mako specifically commented on this in episode 11 that he had been subtly using bloodbending whenever he had been fighting other benders, so him using bloodbending in episode 12 was not a sudden reversal of his principles. Amon wanted to destroy all bending but he could not do it without first the use of his own bending. And Amon was not beat only physically, he was ultimately defeated when he was exposed as a waterbender.
Also Amon’s values were never representative of good equality, beating Amon was never about solving the problems of inequality faced by non-benders (which is something that was established that Korra did want to address) it was about stopping an extremist his organization from occupying Republic City. The Equalists as an organization were not something that could be beat through peaceful compromise, episode 6 was the evidence of this when they when they went full blown terrorists and declared that that their end goal was to end all bending in the world. So while the problems of inequality have still not disappeared (I would not be surprised if Seaosn 2 covers some of the remaining problems), the goal of defeating the Equalists was never about solving the problems, they wanted to beat the Equalists so actually compromise and change could happen. The Equalsits, like Tarrlok, were the other extreme that prevented the actual peaceful addressment of inequality.
 
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Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
Also why are people assuming that having more writers would have changed much of the 1st season for the better? Episode writers don't decide on the major plot points, the love triangle, Amon being a Bloodbender, Korra learning to Airbend in battle and being healed by the Avatar State would have all still have happened in the 1st season. The episodes might have been presented slightly differently but all the important plot points would have still been controlled by Bryke.

Because the major plot points aren't the issue; it's the execution.

Having a team of writers helps flesh out your initial concepts (and hey! maybe they'll even add little tidbits you overloooked!). It's like having someone proofread an essay you wrote.

i'll respond to the other stuff when my head doesn't hurt so much
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
When you have to give a giant tl;dr "analysis" to justify the plot choices of the show... Yeah no that's not exactly the best indicator of good execution.

Just because things develop doesn't mean they developed well. It's like when someone is telling a really good joke but it's not funny because they don't tell it right.

Legend of Korra: good concept, good design, good plot, terrible writing.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
When you have to give a giant tl;dr "analysis" to justify the plot choices of the show... Yeah no that's not exactly the best indicator of good execution.

Just because things develop doesn't mean they developed well. It's like when someone is telling a really good joke but it's not funny because they don't tell it right.

Legend of Korra: good concept, good design, good plot, terrible writing.
How does giving a long analysis inherently indicate weakness of the show's execution? That would be like me claiming because the (tumblr) critique is so long the author is obviously reaching or nitpicking for stuff to criticize without warrant. I don't think that about the critique, I think it is well written and well argued, I just simply disagree with most of it.
I personally think the writing in TLOK is very good and IMO I rate it superior to A:TLA's Book 1.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
How does giving a long analysis inherently indicate weakness of the show's execution? That would be like me claiming because the (tumblr) critique is so long the author is obviously reaching or nitpicking for stuff to criticize without warrant.

Eh it just sort of strikes me as "hey let me give a detailed explanation all the ~deep thought~ put into LoK I bet if you read it you'll realize how good the show really is."

Uh... no. I don't deny that LoK has some good thought put into it. I could do the exact same thing if I so choose. That's the main reason I stuck through all bad parts. You can justify the choices as much as you want, but that doesn't make the execution of said ideas any better.

It just... wasn't a good finale. It wasn't a good season of a show. That is being said using a standard set by Bryke themselves (with the way they wrote/paced a show with ATLA) as well as conventions of what makes good writing/tv series in general.

I personally think the writing in TLOK is very good and IMO I rate it superior to A:TLA's Book 1.

So I'm supposed to be impressed that they've regressed to S1 ATLA quality of writing when they've shown significant improvement over the course of two seasons? Not really buying it tbh.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Eh it just sort of strikes me as "hey let me give a detailed explanation all the ~deep thought~ put into LoK I bet if you read it you'll realize how good the show really is."
I still don't see how making defense of a show detailed, somehow inherently indicates the weakness of said show, while giving a detailed critique can still just be seen as a detailed critique without judging its length as being indicative of it being a weak critique.

Uh... no. I don't deny that LoK has some good thought put into it. I could do the exact same thing if I so choose. That's the main reason I stuck through all bad parts. You can justify the choices as much as you want, but that doesn't make the execution of said ideas any better.

It just... wasn't a good finale. It wasn't a good season of a show. That is being said using a standard set by Bryke themselves (with the way they wrote/paced a show with ATLA) as well as conventions of what makes good writing/tv series in general.

So I'm supposed to be impressed that they've regressed to S1 ATLA quality of writing when they've shown significant improvement over the course of two seasons? Not really buying it tbh.
If that is your reaction/view, that is your reaction/view.
From my viewpoint it was a very good finale and season, and overall had a pretty good execution.
And I don't think they have regressed to season 1 of ATLA quality of writing (which IMO was also a pretty good season), I personally think Season 1 of TLOK is far better than it.
 
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Zealkin

Guest
Can you specify what you mean exactly you mean by they "chose 12 episodes"
I know Mike and Bryan have said in interviews that they prefer the shorter seasons format (is this what your saying?) and that they were given the 12 episode first before the show was renewed for the second season. But are you trying to say something else?
Nick actually gave them the green light and ASKED them how many episodes they would require for a first season, they picked the number themselves.
Also why are people assuming that having more writers would have changed much of the 1st season for the better? Episode writers don't decide on the major plot points, the love triangle, Amon being a Bloodbender, Korra learning to Airbend in battle and being healed by the Avatar State would have all still have happened in the 1st season. The episodes might have been presented slightly differently but all the important plot points would have still been controlled by Bryke.
The presentation and order of the writing is the crux of the problem, delivery could have had more input and critique, more chefs can spoil the soup, but it worked for atla. The ideas were great, but the delivery could have been better, and having someone besides your best buddy to give input can make the story stronger.
 

Elisa Maza

Whomst
Think of it as editing. With a good team that can communicate well, yet respects the creators' wishes (because it's THEIR story, after all) a story can get polished really well, in comparison to how it is with only the original ideas.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Nick actually gave them the green light and ASKED them how many episodes they would require for a first season, they picked the number themselves.
Hmm, interesting. Out of curiosity do you have a link for where they said that? Is it different from the recent Wall Street Journal interview they did?

The presentation and order of the writing is the crux of the problem, delivery could have had more input and critique, more chefs can spoil the soup, but it worked for atla. The ideas were great, but the delivery could have been better, and having someone besides your best buddy to give input can make the story stronger.
I get the group editing benefits that having a writing staff can bring but...I don't know, it just seems IMO a lot of the plots points and character interactions in TLOK were pretty specific/important, I just can't really envision how having had more writers for the first season would have really changed that much.
 
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Zealkin

Guest
Hmm, interesting. Out of curiosity do you have a link for where they said that? Is it different from the recent Wall Street Journal interview they did?
I forgot where I found it, it might have been in the answers they did videos of for the fans.

I get the group editing benefits that having a writing staff can bring but...I don't know, it just seems IMO a lot of the plots points and character interactions in TLOK were pretty specific/important, I just can't really envision how having had more writers for the first season would have really changed that much.
The ideas were amazing, and while some of them came through alright others could have been done better. Not to say that I didn't enjoy what we were given, but it's true that there were a lot of blaring flaws, things that I think if they had more time like they did with the last show they could have perfected, why they chose 12 episodes though and executed them in this way is beyond me. Sometimes outside critique is needed :/
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I forgot where I found it, it might have been in the answers they did videos of for the fans.
The Facebook ones? I saw those, I don't think they mentioned that they specifically initially asked Nickelodeon for 12 episodes though. I remember them saying this though:
[SpiderHyphenMan]Is there anything you wanted to put in but couldn’t because of the 12 episode format?

Konietzko: I actually prefer this format…Mike and I are mostly interested in telling a really driving plot. We feel that 12-14 episodes is a better length for that. Now that we’re really trying to improve the quality of the animation and we’ve raised the bar on that, it takes longer just to make those twelve. It’s like the HBO series or AMC. They don’t do 26 episodes. I think they’re more crafted and I think a tighter story comes out of it. You don’t have a lot of meandering and fluff and exposition and stuff. So I think we like it.

The ideas were amazing, and while some of them came through alright others could have been done better. Not to say that I didn't enjoy what we were given, but it's true that there were a lot of blaring flaws, things that I think if they had more time like they did with the last show they could have perfected, why they chose 12 episodes though and executed them in this way is beyond me. Sometimes outside critique is needed :/
While I agree that maybe one or two more episodes might have improved the show a little, I am still having a hard time trying to envision/see what other writers would have been allowed to change in the show (while still retaining the 12 episode season).
 
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Zealkin

Guest
The Facebook ones? I saw those, I don't think they mentioned that they specifically initially asked Nickelodeon for 12 episodes though. I remember them saying this though:
“When we first starting talking to Nickelodeon about doing a new series in the ‘Avatar’ world, they asked if we could do shorter arcs—more like a show like ‘24’where there’s a specific villain or challenge for that particular season,” Konietzko says.
This is more indirectly saying it, but there was no specification at first, though it would be a miniseries Nick did not decide how many episodes, Bryke did.

While I agree that maybe one or two more episodes might have improved the show a little, I am still having a hard time trying to envision/see what other writers would have been allowed to change in the show (while still retaining the 12 episode season).
They would have provided more creative input/editing to the story. You're right the creators have the final say, but that doesn't mean other writers can't provide input and possibly change their minds. It gives you a wider view on what's possible, it's more of a well oiled machine than having just two people do everything.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Editing usually doesn't mean changing the major plot points or anything. It's just moving things around and saying "hey, this would work better here and this would be more effective if it was done this way instead of that."

It's something Korra was in DIRE need of sigh.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
This is more indirectly saying it, but there was no specification at first, though it would be a miniseries Nick did not decide how many episodes, Bryke did.

They would have provided more creative input/editing to the story. You're right the creators have the final say, but that doesn't mean other writers can't provide input and possibly change their minds. It gives you a wider view on what's possible, it's more of a well oiled machine than having just two people do everything.
Mmm-Hmm, I get all the general ideas/benefits that having a writing team provides, but I suppose why I am having trouble envisioning what the specifics the other writers could have added to TLOK is that I never really noticed a difference in episode quality in A:TLA when Bryke did not write a episode and someone like Aaron Ehasz, John O'Bryan, Tim Hedrick, Elizabeth Welch Ehasz, Joshua Hamilton, etc. did instead. Were you (or others) personally able to tell when Bryke was not scripting an episode in A:TLA?
 
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Zealkin

Guest
Mmm-Hmm, I get all the general ideas/benefits that having a writing team provides, but I suppose why I am having trouble envisioning what the specifics the other writers could have added to TLOK is that I never really noticed a difference in episode quality in A:TLA when Bryke did not write a episode and someone like Aaron Ehasz, John O'Bryan, Tim Hedrick, Elizabeth Welch Ehasz, Joshua Hamilton, etc. did instead. Were you (or others) personally able to tell when Bryke was not scripting an episode in A:TLA?
I think some people led certain episodes but the creators ideas were still there. Like in the episode Appa's lost days. You could tell the writing was different, it had to be, as Appa was an animal that couldn't directly tell you how he was feeling. Bryke may have come up with the idea of Appa being lost, but the writer emotionally charged the episode and made it arranged in such a way that Appa grew on you as a character and developed in ways you wouldn't have thought possible. That writing stood out to me, Elizabeth Welch Ehasz wrote that episode, and I could tell that it wasn't exactly Bryke's way of handling things, but their ideas were most definitely there.
It's not so much that the quality of the idea changed, just the way of handling specific plot points, which is what Korra needs.
 
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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I think some people led certain episodes but the creators ideas were still there. Like in the episode Appa's lost days. You could tell the writing was different, it had to be, as Appa was an animal that couldn't directly tell you how he was feeling. Bryke may have come up with the idea of Appa being lost, but the writer emotionally charged the episode and made it arranged in such a way that Appa grew on you as a character and developed in ways you wouldn't have thought possible. That writing stood out to me, Elizabeth Welch Ehasz wrote that episode, and I could tell that it wasn't exactly Bryke's way of handling things, but their ideas were most definitely there.
It's not so much that the quality of the idea changed, just the way of handling specific plot points, which is what Korra needs.
Hmmm, perhaps I just have not watched enough TV shows or studied scripting enough, because I personally really could not tell the difference between most episodes' writers.

Hypothetically, since you are able to sense the difference in the writers style, if the A:TLA writing team had been available for TLOK's first season, are their any particular writers that you think could have handled certain episodes better than Bryke?
 
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