Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Cat Rage Room]

My argument essentially is the semantics because it does make a subtle but important difference. I'm cutting bread. I use a butter knife. I OWN a butcher knife. By not using hte butcher knife on that bread, am I holding myself back, or limiting myself?

There's a difference.

I use a prototype experimental model railgun I stole from the US Army to cut my bread. Wouldn't want my neighbors to think I'm 'holding back' on sandwich preparation!

 

[ForceStealer]

Yes Genesis does charge Firaga, what are you talking about? It doesn't take long no, but long enough to be interrupted - as Angeal does.

And how do you know that Meteor appeared instantaneously? Sephiroth gets the black materia and we see Meteor when Tifa wakes up 7 days later

 

[Cat Rage Room]

People like the Hulk and Goku have demonstrated durability far beyond nuclear explosions, and Dante literally can't die. Cloud doesn't have anywhere the feats these guys have. Goku and Dante never rely soley on hand to hand combat in their most difficult battles, Goku has all that kamhameha energy attack stuff and Dante has demonic weapons and Devil Trigger. The Hulk has no other skills than hand to hand, which is why he relies on them, and his physical strength can shatter worlds, so he doesn't need to.

These examples don't work as Cloud doesn't have the durability of them and Sephiroth doesn't have the physical strength of them, they don't apply in this situation.

It was just a goddamn example, man. Those were the first characters I thought of. My point was in fiction, there are a SHITLOAD of examples where nuclear explosions/energy balls/firestorms don't work as well as just straight up slicing you up or punching your skull in.

Gameplay is not a valid argument. By your logic Cloud and pals can onlky travel in groups of three and have to take turns exchanging attacks.

No, it's reasonable speculation. Even in ACC it took Cloud a quick second to charge up some of his limit breaks. Hell, that even applies in real life to a degree. What's faster, a haymaker or a jab?

That's because it's a limitation in gameplay on a powerful move. In the plot there is no charge time. Genesis doesn't charge firaga, hell, even in FF VII once Meteor is cast there is no charge time between the casting and the appearance of Meteor itself, and that's one of the most powerful magics in the VII universe.

Actually Genesis did charge up some of his magic in that FMV.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You wouldn't believe how deadly a slice of bread can be.

I shan't underestimate them again then.

My argument essentially is the semantics because it does make a subtle but important difference.

Just wanted to briefly come back to this. I don't think the potential difference is important because you know that by "holding back" everyone means "not using his most powerful and deadliest attacks, nor attempting to use more than one offensive skill/ability at a time."

It really is ancillary.

Not by any means I'm willing to consider - like Sephiroth to Cloud. Whether Sephiroth is a fool for believing that is another matter.

I think it's a well-related matter. If a loaf of bread had killed you twice before -- or even bit your ass a couple times -- if you didn't use the biggest fucking knife in the room, I'm going to call you a dumbass.

<3

And on that note, I'm going to go make a sandwich.

 

[Dark and Divine]

And on that note, I'm going to go make a sandwich.

Be careful!

 

[ForceStealer]

I think it's a well-related matter. If a loaf of bread had killed you twice before -- or even bit your ass a couple times -- if you didn't use the biggest fucking knife in the room, I'm going to call you a dumbass.

But if I'm a cocky prick who has the best butter knife I've ever had, and the slice of bread no longer has all his super-powerful friends with him, and he's worn out for fighting two days straight, and again, I'm a cocky prick. I may still be a dumbass, but I'm not holding myself back either!


And if Sephiroth's telekinesis is so damn awesome, why couln't he stop Omnislash v. 6?

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Yes Genesis does charge Firaga, what are you talking about? It doesn't take long no, but long enough to be interrupted

Notice how he got off all the other firagas surrounding Sephiroth with a simple flick of the wrist? The charge isn't necessary. And even so, Sephiroth can fly and Cloud can't, Sephiroth is also much faster. He could stay out of reach of Cloud for far more than enough time to charge anything you can think of.

It was just a goddamn example, man. Those were the first characters I thought of. My point was in fiction, there are a SHITLOAD of examples where nuclear explosions/energy balls/firestorms don't work as well as just straight up slicing you up or punching your skull in.

And my point is this is only in cases where the characters have more physical power than nuclear explosions, etc.

No, it's reasonable speculation. Even in ACC it took Cloud a quick second to charge up some of his limit breaks. Hell, that even applies in real life to a degree. What's faster, a haymaker or a jab?

Limit Breaks aren't spells, and even so the charge up was so short as to be negligible.

Actually Genesis did charge up some of his magic in that FMV.

See my first sentence.

But if I'm a cocky prick who has the best butter knife I've ever had, and the slice of bread no longer has all his super-powerful friends with him, and he's worn out for fighting two days straight, and again, I'm a cocky prick. I may still be a dumbass, but I'm not holding myself back either!

But the reason you're a dumbass is because you are holding yourself back. Cockiness doesn't negate the fact that you aren't using the best available since you have a butcher knife.

And if Sephiroth's telekinesis is so damn awesome, why couln't he stop Omnislash v. 6?

It surprised him and happened too fast. The reason it hit Sephiroth is because he'd never seen it before and was too surprised to react in what Nomura calls, "the blink of an eye."

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm singling you out Tres, cause your post is the larger target

As long as we're talking semantics, though, "going all out" or "taking it seriously" to me means being desperate to win and giving it everything at your disposal. Cloud was desperate to win, was going all out, and laying down everything he had.

Okay fair enough. Apparently we were using a different definition.

Seph was most certainly not. He didn't use any telekinesis on Cloud, instead using it for a theatrical display on a building. He didn't even fire off a single spell, for that matter, or, say, surround him with Negative Lifestream so that he couldn't see -- and that's assuming he couldn't outright use the stuff to physically or mentally harm someone.

Sephiroth wasn't desperate to win because he was confident in his advantage and in control the whole time.

A fatal/mortal wound is not the same as a kill shot.

What?

A stab to the chest is a kill shot. If you run a person through with a sword straight through the chest, they're going to die right there. It's only thanks to Cloud's tenacity and drive to live that he didn't fall down dead on the spot. Especially after getting stabbed there again, and then sliced to ribbons.

No way is an impalement through the chest not a kill shot.

Actually, the blade had already completely passed Cloud's head before he grabbed it:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5118/luckycloud.png

Either he lucked out or Seph wasn't ready to kill him yet. In either case, Cloud grabbed the blade on instinct, but it didn't help him at all.

He definitely lucked out. He had been moving while being skewered so either Cloud moved in time (accidentally or purposefully) or yeah, it was intentional. But the fact is, Sephiroth went for the face and nearly hit it.

It's like in the original game -- Seph could have easily killed all of AVALANCHE at any time. He could have phased through the floors of their rooms in an inn, walked up to them while looking like a random pedestrian, or not left them laying on the ground very much alive after knocking half of them out at the Northern Crater.

I'm not buying this phasing ability because it's never ever used except for dramatic purposes. He's not Shadowcat. Jenova works by creating illusions and toying with people's heads. It's highly likely that the way Jenova appears an disappears is all thanks to its ability to cast illusions and make the opponent see what they want to see. Just like Sephiroth/Jenova was able to make Red XIII see a thick black fog that covered up his fallen comrades and then have him give "Tifa" the Black Materia.

Honestly the whole phasing thing seems completely ridiculous. Yeah, he could've killed them numerous times in FFVII, I agree. But I'm calling out the whole "passing through shit" ability. That seems out of step to me.

Hell, he could have suddenly dropped down from the sky and impaled one through the back while they were none the wiser -- oh, right.

The one time he was playing for keeps, he killed somebody. And even then, because he was trying to torture Cloud and prove himself to be so cash, he ended up acting too slowly and allowed Aerith to cast Holy -- and so he then had to spend the rest of the game holding it back.

Sephiroth was playing for keeps in the end too, ya know.

The figure that quite physically stabs Tseng also phased through solid objects.

Again, that's all illusion.

You see Sephiroth literally split himself in two while speaking to Tseng, with one figure stabbing Tseng, and another one monologuing and then flying away out of the room. All the times Jenova/Sephiroth appears there, it heavily relies on its illusionary properties and abilities.

Because it's Sephiroth.

Sephiroth is an even bigger theatrical buffoon than Kuja.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. Kuja's in a league of his own.

They didn't break through it instantly. Seph just floated there while they struggled against it in vain for a long moment.

Never said it was instantly, but they did break through it.

In the case of the materia, I believe Nomura said that they stopped using it because it drained the planet's energy. So, really, using materia in that fight would have either made Sephiroth's control over the green Lifestream easier to achieve, or it would -- at the very least -- have further weakened the already weak planet they were trying to save.

Yet they were more than willing to use it again in DC. I doubt that it would be that significant, especially given the fact that it would help save the planet against a greater threat. Not only that, but I'm dubious of that sudden assertion in the first place. The materia section in the CC Complete Guide may shed some light on it.

As for the rest of AVALANCHE, they were probably cut off from the battle because of the storm anyway. Otherwise, I think they would have tried to help once Sephiroth himself came back. Barret certainly gave Cloud his ten minutes and then some otherwise -- and I can't see him not saying "Fuck that spikey-headed dumbass' self-confidence! Marlene's down there below all those damn tentacles! We'll buy him a hooker later if he needs a shot of confidence."

Of course. The Negative Lifestream storm isolated Cloud and Sephiroth from the outside.

And that's why I say Seph wasn't going all out.

His swordsmanship is inferior to his other abilities because it requires landing a physical blow -- which can be dodged more easily than telekinesis or clouds of Negative Lifestream.

I highly disagree, considering his prowess with the sword and the fact he'll land a hit if he so chooses. His speed and power are beyond compare. It's not inferior in the least.

Now, all that said, I don't doubt that Seph wasn't "giving it his all" while restricting himself to just using his swordsmanship. But, then, that's not "giving it his all" the way I define it.

Fair enough. That's what I said before. He was fully using his swordsmanship against Cloud as a choice.

Cloud, on the other hand, was utilizing everything he had available to him for that fight -- even desperately hacking away at Seph with two swords as though he were trying to chop down a tree that kept bending out of the way.

Cloud didn't use all of his limit breaks though. He was clearly holding back.

Can we at least agree that by my use of the definition for "going all out" Seph wasn't going all out? You can't deny that using telekinesis and Negative Lifestream clouds in addition to fighting at his best with his swordsmanship skills would have given him an advantage.

Well as I said earlier, I agree that Sephiroth was going all out with his swordsmanship and that he chose not to use the rest of the abilities he had at his disposal.

I suppose the conflict lies in why we think he did. I believe he only used the sword because he didn't have to and he was fully capable of killing him easily with the sword alone. It would be highly superficial and unnecessary to use pyrotechnics when the blade is getting the job done already. Also, it was for the sake of his pride and beating Cloud at his own game, so to speak.

Seph absolutely wasn't fighting that battle with the same desperation that Cloud had when he leaped after Kadaj.

I can agree that Seph was giving the fight all he had while limiting himself, and that he was going in for the kill when Zack appeared. Hell, I even agree that Cloud legitimately beat him in that final moment -- Seph couldn't keep up with him.

Okay, fair enough. That sounds right. But I'm still at a loss on how you don't think Sephiroth going for the chest impalement twice is a kill shot. That's a bit much.

I'm not really convinced that the wing coming out is indicative of Seph going into a full-on Limit Break. It certainly wasn't with Genesis or Angeal (even if it involuntarily accompanies accessing more power, they weren't constantly at their spiritual peak, for obvious reasons).

Hell, for that matter, the wing comes out while Seph has Cloud dangling on his damn sword like a piñata. The battle was basically sewn up at that point from his perspective -- Sephiroth shouldn't have felt more power was necessary.

Sephiroth brought out more power for the sheer thrill of being able to inflict the most damage on Cloud. You can tell by his facial expression that he's extremely excited at having Cloud where he wants him. It's kinda like how I love to go into Ex Mode for the hell of it when I land the final HP attack to win a match in Dissidia, and do a superfluous Ex Burst.

Sephiroth's ascended forms have always been tied to the appearance of his wing. Always. And clearly, the manifestation of the wing in regards to Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal all points to an unlocking of latent powers and abilities not displayed when the wing was not present. Flight being an example.

The fact the CC Complete Guide refers to the wing as a comparative symbol of power regarding Genesis Copies/G Type SOLDIERs is pretty telling as well. It's not just superfluous.

Added to that, in the original version of that fight, the wing came out when Seph had just lost and could no longer fight back. So the sprouting of wings has not always accompanied an increase in power, right?

Retcon, and one that gives a lot more substance and consistency to the Compilation. I always thought Sephiroth revealing the wing for no damn reason when he was beaten was stupid and unnecessary. I'm glad they cleared that up with ACC.

That indicates, then, that Seph had an objective other than simply killing Cloud and winning the fight -- which is what someone desperate to win and going all out would be doing.

Thus, he was dicking around.

He was still pretty serious about killing him. I don't see Sephiroth impaling his opponent twice and jacking their shit up like a machine as dicking around. He dicked around at the beginning a bit to get the fight going and stuff, but once Cloud raised the stakes, he raised them right back and got serious.

Considering that Cloud is a guy who had already killed Sephiroth twice, doing anything less than raining down all hell from every spell he knew was ego-stroking and not going all out.

He rained hell down with that sword! I don't know why you underestimate the surgicial skill Sephiroth has with the blade.

Unless he's God (capital "G"), then holding back a powerful spell like Holy -- its opposite number having required Sephiroth to absorb and utilize a lot of energy from the Lifestream -- should require quantifiable effort the same way that not being absorbed into the Lifestream and then manifesting as a spirit required quantifiable effort.

Sephiroth is very godlike.

The reason Sephiroth required significant effort to not diffuse was because he had been killed again, and weakened in the lifestream by Cloud. He wasn't nearly at his full strength and already he had some of himself diffuse when the Lifestream went all crazy.

We're never told anything about Sephiroth having to exert concentration or effort to hold back Holy. If anything, we're shown he does it quite easily, to the point that Holy didn't move an inch even when his physical body was destroyed.

 

[ForceStealer]

He did charge Firaga. He pulls his hand forward in front of him as the power gathers in his hand. It's not long, bu he still does charge. And as I said, it's long enough for Angeal to interrupt the second spell after its begun, and before it goes off. IF it were instantaneous that would not be possible.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

And my point is this is only in cases where the characters have more physical power than nuclear explosions, etc.

How do you know for sure that Sephiroth's strength and the sharpness of his Masamune are weaker options than his NL against a person of similar strength? Pillow talk with Nomura? BTW can you tell us when the remake is coming out

Notice how he got off all the other firagas surrounding Sephiroth with a simple flick of the wrist? The charge isn't necessary.

At some point he charged up something. Perhaps that initial charge is what enabled him to just flick off those firagras.

Limit Breaks aren't spells, and even so the charge up was so short as to be negligible.

Spells, Limit Breaks, ham sandwiches, whatever. It doesn't matter. The point is, there are scenarios where strong things have to be charged and have a recovery time.

 

[ForceStealer]

Like sex!

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

He did charge Firaga. He pulls his hand forward in front of him as the power gathers in his hand. It's not long, bu he still does charge. And as I said, it's long enough for Angeal to interrupt the second spell after its begun, and before it goes off. IF it were instantaneous that would not be possible.

That's because he was taking longer than necessary to fire it off. He waited longer for the second burst than the first one, just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.

This is getting too semantics heavy and convoluted for my taste, so this'll probably be my last post here. The fact is that it's an extremely large plot inconsistency if Sephiroth isn't holding back. If there was a hard battle between 8 super humans armed with Materia and their best weapons against a weaker Sephiroth, then Cloud alone simply couldn't beat a stronger Sephiroth without materia and by himself if he was not holding back. It's just simple logic.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

That's because he was taking longer than necessary to fire it off. He waited longer for the second burst than the first one, just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.

oh jesus christ dude

Maybe we should ship you off to fight the terrorists because you never give up and you don't give a fuck

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But if I'm a cocky prick who has the best butter knife I've ever had, and the slice of bread no longer has all his super-powerful friends with him, and he's worn out for fighting two days straight, and again, I'm a cocky prick. I may still be a dumbass, but I'm not holding myself back either!

You're not holding back with the means you've chosen to utilize perhaps, but you are electing not to use your death ray.

And if Sephiroth's telekinesis is so damn awesome, why couln't he stop Omnislash v. 6?

If I were to fanwank out an explanation, I'd say it's because he couldn't keep up with where Cloud was and getting slashed over and over probably messed with his ability to focus.

In any case, I haven't said that Seph's telekinesis would have definitely resolved things. Cloud has broken free of it before, after all.

But holding the dude still for even a second -- with or without simultaneously using the Negative Lifestream to obscure where Seph would attack from -- would have given Seph time to decapitate him.

If Seph was desperate to win and was going all out, of course.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's because he was taking longer than necessary to fire it off. He waited longer for the second burst than the first one, just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.

This is getting too semantics heavy and convoluted for my taste, so this'll probably be my last post here. The fact is that it's an extremely large plot inconsistency if Sephiroth isn't holding back. The fact is that if there was a hard battle between 8 super humans armed with Materia and their best weapons against a weaker Sephiroth, then Cloud alone simplky couldn't beat a stronger Sephiroth without materia and by himself if he was using the best in his arsenal.

I do agree the semantic quibbles are annoying, however my initial point from the beginning was always that while Sephiroth never used all of his abilities against Cloud in ACC, he used all his power and swordsmanship against him with the intent to kill. I don't see that as holding back. I see that as a personal preference and choice regarding combat. Sephiroth's skill with the blade is more than enough to take down Cloud or anyone, and he had Cloud by the balls several times. Hindsight is always 20/20. Sephiroth had no reason at all to think Cloud would use Omnislash V.6, after he was able to survive and punish Cloud's initial Omnislash. The move that killed him before.

If you want to think that Sephiroth's choice at using a blade all out while foregoing magic, means he held back, that's cool. I just disagree. Anyways, it was a nice discussion/debate with you.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

oh jesus christ dude

Maybe we should ship you off to fight the terrorists because you never give up and you don't give a fuck

Watch the cutscene, he waits longer to use the second round of firaga than he does with the first one. If I'm wrong, show me, but the fact is he can and has fired off the same spell in less time, there's no need for you to be rude about it.

I do agree the semantic quibbles are annoying, however my initial point from the beginning was always that while Sephiroth never used all of his abilities against Cloud in ACC, he used all his power and swordsmanship against him with the intent to kill. I don't see that as holding back. I see that as a personal preference and choice regarding combat. Sephiroth's skill with the blade is more than enough to take down Cloud or anyone, and he had Cloud by the balls several times. Hindsight is always 20/20. Sephiroth had no reason at all to think Cloud would use Omnislash V.6, after he was able to survive and punish Cloud's initial Omnislash. The move that killed him before.

If you want to think that Sephiroth's choice at using a blade all out while foregoing magic, means he held back, that's cool. I just disagree. Anyways, it was a nice discussion/debate with you.

I see what you're saying and where you're coming from, I just see it another way I suppose. My thoughts are that while he used his full swordsmanship on Cloud and had the intent to kill him, he handicapped himself by not using his more powerful magic against him as well, simply so he could make Cloud suffer and prove to himself he is above a SOLDIER reject.

And yes, it was nice. I love a good debate on a fun subject like this.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Watch the cutscene, he waits longer to use the second round of firaga than he does with the first one. If I'm wrong, show me, but the fact is he can and has fired off the same spell in less time

And its my opinion that you're looking too much into it. All I take notice of is that he charged up something at some point because he had to in order to make it as effective as it was.

there's no need for you to be rude about it.

I'm being snarky yes, but I don't mean to be rude. We're not robots, we're people! Feel free to add a witty comment or two of your own, I won't be offended.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's because he was taking longer than necessary to fire it off. He waited longer for the second burst than the first one, just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.

You're just making assumptions here that you don't have a basis to make. He charged the first one too. Why would he have waited to fire the second one? And how do you know the second spell is Firaga? It could be a more powerful one that takes longer to charge.

I think it's pretty safe to say in any fictional medium that magic requires a charge time, even if its a brief one.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Winner winner, chicken dinner. Looking back from whatever corner of hell that he's currently residing in, Sephiroth could have won against Cloud under a different set of circumstances. Maybe he should have done something else with his swordsmanship, magic, NL, or whatever. It's not like we're saying that Sephiroth couldn't have won no matter what. But he didn't. He lost. Just because he could have won doing something else doesn't mean he held back. That just means he lost, period.

 

[ForceStealer]

Cloud also should have beheaded Sephiroth after impaling him in Nibelheim :-P

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

And its my opinion that you're looking too much into it. All I take notice of is that he charged up something at some point because he had to in order to make it as effective as it was.

Well you can hold any opinion you want, but the longer charge time came after the initial, quick firaga burst, so it couldn't be the primary charge.

I'm being snarky yes, but I don't mean to be rude. We're not robots, we're people! Feel free to add a witty comment or two of your own, I won't be offended.

Well then I'll be pompously snarky and call you an uncivilized rake while sipping brandy.

You're just making assumptions here that you don't have a basis to make. He charged the first one too. Why would he have waited to fire the second one? And how do you know the second spell is Firaga? It could be a more powerful one that takes longer to charge.

I think it's pretty safe to say in any fictional medium that magic requires a charge time, even if its a brief one.

I've already conceded there is a charge time, my point is that it's too short to be a major issue. It's not like Sephiroth's magic takes as long to charge as Emperor Mateus' starfall in Dissidia(good lord, starfall), but even if it did Sephiroth's speed and flight advantage would keep him safe while he charged his spells.

 

[ForceStealer]

If Angeal could interrupt it, I'd say its long enough to potentially be an issue. But it's neither here nor there at this point.

Does Starfall take longer than Meteor in Dissidia? I confess I don't use the Emperor very much.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

If Angeal could interrupt it, I'd say its long enough to potentially be an issue. But it's neither here nor there at this point.

Angeal and Genesis have the same speed and flight capabilities, and advantage Cloud doesn't have against Sephiroth.

Does Starfall take longer than Meteor in Dissidia? I confess I don't use the Emperor very much.

I started charging Starfall the day I got the game in August and it just hit my opponent yesterday.

 

[ForceStealer]

He can't fly in the sense that he can't change his direction once airborne, but he can still move pretty damn far and fast.

And lol.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Well look at it this way, he needed everyone's boost to get to Bahamut Tremor, so if the faster Sephiroth just kind of hung out at a similar height Cloud would be SOL.