Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Deus]

If the fact its described as being able to tear into dimensions and is equated to the power of a supernova, isn't enough quantifaction, I don't know what is. What are you looking for? Schematics?

Spilling into another dimension isn't quantifiable.
And a name doesn't mean anything. Unless Vegeta's Big Bang Attack can destroy the universe....

Care to share your reference or proof of this?

My eyes. Or are you saying Sephiroth wasn't holding them all at the same time in his base form and thus dividing up his mental power?

He was also holding back Holy which I'm sure took even more focus away from the heroes.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Mako, think of it this way and you'll see how the wing business is merely an aesthetic choice. Safer Sephiroth is weaker than ACC Sephiroth, but in AC Sephiroth has not just one missing wing, but VII. He has all of his Safer power and then some, but he still chooses to manifest without a single wing.

Also, Genesis' degradation making him more monstrous and powerful has nothing to do with his wing. His degradation is cured after Banora and he hides his wing again, but DoC shows us that even without degradation the wing is still there.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Spilling into another dimension isn't quantifiable.
And a name doesn't mean anything. Unless Vegeta's Big Bang Attack can destroy the universe....

How is it not? If an explosion is strong enough to shatter space itself, then holy shit, its powerful. That's Ultimecia level power. Whats hard to understand about that?

My eyes. Or are you saying Sephiroth wasn't holding them all at the same time in his bae adn thus dividing up his mental power?

He was, but how does his telekinetic will get divided up? Where does it say that he had to divide up his attention and that weakened his hold? Where are you getting that they worked together and were somehow able to combine their will to overcome his? You're reading this stuff on your own. We're shown Sephiroth holding each of the characters with his will, and then they all break free of it one by one. Period.

He was also holding back Holy which I'm sure took even more focus away from the heroes.

What focus? It's his will. His desire. His will and desire alone is enough to subvert and hold Holy. Where the hell does it say he was distracted or needed focus? It's his will, not concentration.

Mako, think of it this way and you'll see how the wing business is merely an aesthetic choice. Safer Sephiroth is weaker than ACC Sephiroth, but in AC Sephiroth has not just one missing wing, but VII. He has all of his Safer power and then some, but he still chooses to manifest without a single wing.

His wing is still indicative and apart of his strength and transformation. It is not just aesthetic. The CC Complete Guide references Hollander's wing's size as an indicator of his strength. It states why his wing is tiny, compared to Genesis's which is huge. It's a reference of power. So it being just aesthetic is out of step.

As for why AC Sephiroth is stronger while having less wings..it's never stated that more wings means more power. Sephiroth donning his wing is a reference to his transformation and power up. That's all. I or the game, never said that the more wings you have, the stronger you get. It's just a physical manifestation of Sephiroth's true power.

Also, Genesis' degradation making him more monstrous and powerful has nothing to do with his wing. His degradation is cured after Banora and he hides his wing again, but DoC shows us that even without degradation the wing is still there.

The wing is a symptom and result of said degradation and transformation.

And we really don't know how the lifestream was able to cure his degredation. We only know it was cured. It never is stated that he lost all of his powers as a product of Jenova Project G.

 

[Deus]

How is it not? If an explosion is strong enough to shatter space itself, then holy shit, its powerful. That's Ultimecia level power. Whats hard to understand about that?

Ultimecia was collapsing the universe itself and absorbing it.
There is no comparison between that and poking a hole in a dimension or whatever it is Super Nova does.

Hell Zantetsuken cut through space just by flying out of Odin's hands didn't it?

Heh, we've come full circle.

He was, but how does his telekinetic will get divided up? Where does it say that he had to divide up his attention and that weakened his hold?

How do you think telekinesis works? You focus on something and exert your power on it to make it do something. He obviously would have to focus on each of the party members individually to hold them. Just like you'd have to focus on two wriggling kcats if you picked one up in each hand.

Where are you getting that they worked together and were somehow able to combine their will to overcome his?

Because it's just like a bunch of people hitting a wall at the same time. They were all struggling to get free at the same time. Thus their efforts were combined.

You're reading this stuff on your own. We're shown Sephiroth holding each of the characters with his will, and then they all break free of it one by one. Period.

No, we're not shown that. That's your interpretation of it. In fact what we see is everyone talking about how they're being basically ripped apart and then they all start charging at Sephiroth and he casually knocks them back.

There is nothing at all to say they broke free one-by-one.

What focus? It's his will. His desire. His will and desire alone is enough to subvert and hold Holy. Where the hell does it say he was distracted or needed focus? It's his will, not concentration.

...you don't will something to happen and not focus on it. That makes no sense at all.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can I ask why I and Forcestealer are just being ignored? We're not being as loud, perhaps, but we're being just as salient.

Why no love?

It is because we haven't directly besmirched Sephypoo yet?

Because I can change that if necessary.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ultimecia was collapsing the universe itself and absorbing it.
There is no comparison between that and poking a hole in a dimension or whatever it is Super Nova does.

What the hell do you mean, "poking a whole in it?" It's an explosion who's force is so strong that it tears and distorts space. What is so hard to understand about such a quantification and description? If the force of an explosion is so great that its possible for it to leak out of one reality to another, what does that say about its power?

Hell Zantetsuken cut through space just by flying out of Odin's hands didn't it?

And Zantetsuken is one of the sharpest and strongest swords in Final Fantasy. Do you see the point there?

How do you think telekinesis works? You focus on something and exert your power on it to make it do something. He obviously would have to focus on each of the party members individually to hold them. Just like you'd have to focus on two wriggling kcats if you picked one up in each hand.

Sephiroth's will is how he was able to hold back Holy. His will was only broken until his literal consciousness was shattered within the lifestream. It was tied to his overwhelming desire and will for Holy not to move. So how would he need to focus on his desire and intent to not have Holy move?

It's never stated to be about focus. It's his will. Furthermore, we're not shown anything at all that says Sephiroth had trouble focusing his will or psychic powers to pin down Cloud and the others. If you're gonna state that, I'd like some proof. How do you know its operating as you say it does? The narrative simply shows Sephiroth holding them in place, and them struggling one by one to get free. The end.

Because it's just like a bunch of people hitting a wall at the same time. They were all struggling to get free at the same time. Thus their efforts were combined.

They didn't hit said wall at the same time, but one by one. And who says its even like that in the first place?

No, we're not shown that. That's your interpretation of it. In fact what we see is everyone talking about how they're being basically ripped apart and then they all start charging at Sephiroth and he casually knocks them back.

Sephiroth is PULLING them and pushing them away. You see them in their same pained and contorted positions they were in when he first grabbed them. They weren't charging then. They only break free once they actually move and assume their fighting stances.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

For the vast majority of ACC Sephiroth doesn't even have less wings, he has NO wings. He's completely wingless, yet stronger than the winged Safer Sephiroth. This alone proves that wings aren't a reliable measure of power.

Moving on to Genesis. If the wing was part of a degradation power up, it would have disappeared along with all the other signs of degradation. No one said anything about him losing his abilities from Project G, but if the wing is a power up from degrading then it simply wouldn't be there anymore. Not only is it still there after three years of no degradation at all though, it has grown larger without the degrading.

 

[Makoeyes987]

For the vast majority of ACC Sephiroth doesn't even have less wings, he has NO wings. He's completely wingless, yet stronger than the winged Safer Sephiroth. This alone proves that wings aren't a reliable measure of power.

Again, him being superior to Safer Sephiroth in his AC appearance without a wing, and with a wing is not hard to fathom at all. The fact he busts out with the wing, which has been shown repeatedly to represent his ultimate and strongest form, or at the very least...him going all out...is enough to show that yes..when the wing is out, Sephiroth's at his peak. It has never, ever been shown to just be a fashion statement. Not in FFVII, Dissidia, etc.

Moving on to Genesis. If the wing was part of a degradation power up, it would have disappeared along with all the other signs of degradation. No one said anything about him losing his abilities from Project G, but if the wing is a power up from degrading then it simply wouldn't be there anymore. Not only is it still there after three years of no degradation at all though, it has grown larger without the degrading.

The degredation is due to the powers of Jenova and its cell not integrating properly with the body. Genesis being cured of said degredation while keeping its powers, would mean that the integration has been corrected. No one ever said that he was purged of Jenova's powers and strength.

 

[Deus]

What the hell do you mean, "poking a whole in it?" It's an explosion who's force is so strong that it tears and distorts space. What is so hard to understand about such a quantification and description? If the force of an explosion is so great that its possible for it to leak out of one reality to another, what does that say about its power?

One, I think you're reading too much into the quote.
"A blast of such despair that it can send destruction even into other dimensions"

All it says is that it COULD, not did, send destruction into another dimension. And since dimensional walls are not composed of any substance we can quantify nor have they been tested, we have nothing to judge their strength by.

Even Ulquiorra can't destroy a full sized city and he could bust through a dimension that was actually imprisoning him.

So dimensional walls can be weaker than citybusting.

And Zantetsuken is one of the sharpest and strongest swords in Final Fantasy. Do you see the point there?

No. Because it can't destroy a city either.

Sephiroth's will is how he was able to hold back Holy. His will was only broken until his literal consciousness was shattered within the lifestream. It was tied to his overwhelming desire and will for Holy not to move. So how would he need to focus on his desire and intent to not have Holy move?

I don't see how you can will something and not think about it. Explain that to me. How do I will myself to sit down but nt think about it?

It's never stated to be about focus. It's his will. Furthermore, we're not shown anything at all that says Sephiroth had trouble focusing his will or psychic powers to pin down Cloud and the others. If you're gonna state that, I'd like some proof. How do you know its operating as you say it does? The narrative simply shows Sephiroth holding them in place, and them struggling one by one to get free. The end.

[/quote]

I never said he had trouble holding them. I said he had to split hsi attention because there were more of them.

Sephiroth is PULLING them and pushing them away. You see them in their same pained and contorted positions they were in when he first grabbed them. They weren't charging then. They only break free once they actually move and assume their fighting stances.

Then the most you can say is they broke free in groups. They each moved away in pairs didn't they? Not one-by-one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

One, I think you're reading too much into the quote.
"A blast of such despair that it can send destruction even into other dimensions"

All it says is that it COULD, not did, send destruction into another dimension. And since dimensional walls are not composed of any substance we can quantify nor have they been tested, we have nothing to judge their strength by.

..For God's sake, will you please stop these semantic games? The description speaks of the power of the attack and what it does. The fact it uses "can" doesn't mean that it just "could" happen on the off chance Sephiroth does it the 10,000th time. Will you please stop parsing and turning the text on its head to suit your point? It's not a possibility. It's a statement of what it IS.

Even Ulquiorra can't destroy a full sized city and he could bust through a dimension that was actually imprisoning him.

So dimensional walls can be weaker than citybusting.

Please don't tell me you brought up a non-related fictional work to explain the mechanics of a different. Bleach is not FFVII and they do not even operate on the same fantasy elements. Give me a break.

I don't see how you can will something and not think about it. Explain that to me. How do I will myself to sit down but nt think about it?

Sephiroth's will/desire for Holy not to move from its spot doesn't require much concentration. His very presence and will for it not to move is enough to keep it from going. Do you need to constantly think about and focus on something you want?

I never said he had trouble holding them. I said he had to split hsi attention because there were more of them.

If Sephiroth wills for none of them to move because its his intent and desire, why would he need to focus? How woudl that be dividing his attention? All he'd need to will is "I don't want these fools to move."

Then the most you can say is they broke free in groups. They each moved away in pairs didn't they? Not one-by-one.

It was one by one, dude. Each person in each group moves one after the other. They aren't breaking free simultaneously at all. First Cid, then Red XIII right behind him, etc. Cloud is the last one. What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, this thread is getting very silly and I'm seeing quite a lot of arguing against points Mako isn't holding and non sequiturs and red herrings and ignoring of posts and all other sorts of bad debating practice, ESPECIALLY SEMANTIC GAMES. I am saying this now. Stop it or I will have to lock the thread so you can cool off. HAVE I MADE MYSELF UNDERSTOOD?

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION.
PLEASE DO NOT MAKE ME ISSUE A FURTHER EDICT AS A MODERATOR.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Yeah, this is getting a little bit () off-topic.

 

[Deus]

So you attack our arguments while defending Mako's then say there is no more arguing allowed? How is that fair exactly?

But whatever. We've all already made our lists. This thread is basically done nyway.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He didn't say no more arguing. Disagree all you like. It's the crazy semantic games and shit that's got to stop. Arguing over the use of "can" in a description is just ridiculously pedantic. Just like how the CC Complete Guide's inclusion of Supernova doesn't specifically say it was used in FFVII...Wtf? The description of what Supernova does states what it does, not what it could possibly do. Quibbling over how its just saying its possible is absurd, dude.

And bringing up an entirely non-related work of media as a point in another is also just...wtf? FFVII isn't Bleach, dude. We need to stick to the topic and fantasy universe we're talking about.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Deus, I wish for the strawmen, the equivocation, the ignoring of posts, the red herrings, the non sequiturs to stop. Not the debate.

Are you saying your arguments are nothing BUT these things?

If it is not, then the debate can continue.

 

[Deus]

Oh. I misunderstood you.

And bringing up an entirely non-related work of media as a point in another is also just...wtf? FFVII isn't Bleach, dude. We need to stick to the topic and fantasy universe we're talking about.

Bleach is a fantasy universe, dude.

But let's end this merry-go-round of an argument here. Can you prove to me how much energy is required to break through a dimension?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The discussion's enjoyable and stimulating, but c'mon, let's stick to some common ground here and not get caught up in circles and stuff


Anyways, back to what were saying and getting it back on track:

One, I think you're reading too much into the quote.
"A blast of such despair that it can send destruction even into other dimensions"

Now that's the description of Super Nova from Dissidia. It states its power is enough to send destruction even into other dimensions. Now if its strong enough that its able to break walls and send shockwaves even into other realities, then its certainly strong enough to shatter city buildings in a one block radius, right?

I don't see how you can will something and not think about it. Explain that to me. How do I will myself to sit down but nt think about it?

Sephiroth's will/desire for Holy not to move from its spot doesn't require much concentration. His very presence and will for it not to move is enough to keep it from going. Do you need to constantly think about and focus on something you want?

I never said he had trouble holding them. I said he had to split hsi attention because there were more of them.

If Sephiroth wills for none of them to move because its his intent and desire, why would he need to focus? How woudl that be dividing his attention? All he'd need to will is "I don't want these fools to move."

Then the most you can say is they broke free in groups. They each moved away in pairs didn't they? Not one-by-one.

It was one by one, dude. Each person in each group moves one after the other. They aren't breaking free simultaneously at all. First Cid, then Red XIII right behind him, etc. Cloud is the last one. What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Deus]

Random question I just thought up....
Was Ultimecia in Dissidia at her base power levels?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well...that certainly is random

In regards to Ultimecia, her strength was her base with the ability to junction to Griever. On her own, Ultimecia is capable of manipulating time to a certain extent, and junction her very body to Guardian Forces. She's even capable of creating Guardian Forces all her own and even reading the minds and memories of individuals.

This is certainly not the ultimate form of Ultimecia who was literally absorbing all of existence into her via the universal time compression she induced with Junction Machine Ellone and all the sorceresses in existence.

 

[Deus]

So which villains retained their ultimate powers in Dissidia?

Kuja can still go Trance I believe...
Exdeath isn't Neo Exdeath though is he?
And of course Jecht can't turn into Braska's Final Aeon.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So which villains retained their ultimate powers in Dissidia?

Kuja can still go Trance I believe...
Exdeath isn't Neo Exdeath though is he?
And of course Jecht can't turn into Braska's Final Aeon.

LOL we talked about this earlier and had a tl;dr discussion about it

Chaos has his ultimate powers. Cloud of Darkness does. Emperor Mateus does. Kefka does to a watered down extent. Sephiroth does. And..I'd say that's it.

Kuja can still trance yes, but he's not trancing with the power of all the souls within the Invincible.

ExDeath isn't Neo ExDeath actually. He goes into his Tree Form, which was before he became consumed by the Void. However, he retains his Neo-ExDeath persona.

Jecht however does turn into the Final Aeon. His entire appearance and strength stems from the fact the's now apparently part aeon. He is definitely no mere mortal now as indicated by his superhuman strength and Ex Mode appearance.

 

[Deus]

Hm. Fair enough then.

I just wasn't sure at which point in their unvierses' timeline each of them was plucked out of.

 

[Makoeyes987]

With the exception of FF1 since its in a timeloop and Dissidia is the prequel to the final loop of the plot, all the characters come from either the end (Squall), or after the end of each of their respective stories (Cloud and Sephiroth).

 

[Deus]

But before AC I assume?
And before X-2 or The After Years?

 

[Makoeyes987]

You got it