Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Cat Rage Room]

You're comparing a brick wall to a giant black of magical energy?

Yes. If you don't like the brick wall comparison, apply the same logic to a body of water, a giant cotton ball, or a gas cloud. The faster you go through something, the more momentum you have, the more damage it does to the human body, and well, anything else. There's a lot we don't know about fictional magical energy, but no reason to assume magical energy operates opposite this logic.

Speculation is fine. But that's all it is. You cannot say Cloud has citybusting durability as a fact based on just some rather flimpsy speculation.

But we're speculating within reason, what we see. Unless one of us is fucking Nomura, that's all we can do, besides Ultimanias and such. You just don't need either one of those things to reasonably speculate. What would you do if you didn't have Ultimania's and such. Would you resign yourself to just not knowing shit? You're looking at it through a magnifying glass and refuting just to refute.

"CITYBUSTING POWER? BUT EDGE IS ONLY 2.3 KL IN DIAMETER SO IT DOESN'T EVEN QUANTIFY AS A CITY IT HAS TO BE ROUGHLY 8.4 KL COUNT AS A CITY AND SAID CITY BUSTING ATTACK HAS TO AMOUNT TO AT LEAST 462,435 JOULES OF FORCE HOLD ON LET ME FIND THE SPECIFICATIONS OF NEW YORK CITY TO FURTHER MY ARGUMENT"

It's the whole semantics shit again. City busting is just a nice word we've all chosen to mean "Really fucking strong".

 

[Deus]

Yes. If you don't like the brick wall comparison, apply the same logic to a body of water, a giant cotton ball, or a gas cloud. The faster you go through something, the more momentum you have, the more damage it does to the human body, and well, anything else. There's a lot we don't know about fictional magical energy, but no reason to assume magical energy operates opposite this logic.

Anime logic (which is what AC is founded upon) doesn't always mesh with real world logic. But I see your point.

It's the whole semantics shit again. City busting is just a nice word we've all chosen to mean "Really fucking strong".

Actually, no, I'm being quite specific. I debate on a forum elsewhere and characters are given levels of "Destructive Capacity" and "Durability". Citybusting is very literal for me. A citybuster is King Piccolo from DB or Nappa from DBZ. (though he did it so casually he's obviously far beyond that) So I'm not just using a general term for really strong.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, how big IS Edge?
I can figure out how much boom in TNT that would need, the volume of TNT, and the volume of the flare.
Using the assumed equivalency between a volume of flare and a volume of TNT, we could see if the flare was bigger.
The TNT equivalency being a lower limit, of course.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I find it hilarious that anyone would doubt the destructive force of one of the strongest summons in existence. It's hardly a leap in logic at all to state that Bahamut's fully charged tremor flare, which the AC script states he fired off with "unprecedented destructive power" was enough to level Edge and destroy it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Anime logic (which is what AC is founded upon) doesn't always mesh with real world logic. But I see your point.

Yeah well, gotta go by something.

Actually, no, I'm being quite specific. I debate on a forum elsewhere and characters are given levels of "Destructive Capacity" and "Durability". Citybusting is very literal for me. A citybuster is King Piccolo from DB or Nappa from DBZ. (though he did it so casually he's obviously far beyond that) So I'm not just using a general term for really strong

Well uh, don't be literal! It absolutely does not help when you're discussing relatively unquantifiable aspects of fictional universes. You have to allow for wiggle room for discussions, definitions, and what you see. There IS such as thing as speculation probably being correct or close to correct. I don't need creator commentary shoved up my ass to get answers I can figure out myself.

 

[Deus]

"Unprecedented destructive power" you say? It must be stronger than Meteor then.
Or it's oh, what's the word...hyperbole. Yeah that's it.

And I won't believe something unless it's proven. Sorry but you have yet to prove Bahamut Sin can desroy a city so he can't. Actually, Ryu is right. No one can say it can and no one can say it can't.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

And I won't believ esomething unless it's proven. Sorry but you have yet to prove Gahamut Sin can desroy a city so he can't. Actually, Ryu is right. No one can say it can and no one can say it can't.

SPECULATION IS RETARDED YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST

SOMEBODY GET NOMURA ON THE PHONE FOR ANSWERS BEFORE DEUS HAS A HEART ATTACK

 

[Ryushikaze]

Actually, with some hard numbers and a lower limit, we actually can say if Edge would have been blasted, and the MT of the blast Cloud lived through.

If we assume the memorial was solid granite, and disregard the steel above, we can figure out a pretty good vaporization energy for the blast via DET. If it's roughly 40ft cube, that's 13.3 m^3, and it would take 1.8kt to melt it. It was not merely melted , so that it obviously our lower limit, with 9kt needed to particalize the monument, which it also wasn't. This gives us an upper and lower bound for the energy by volume of a tremor flare.

For the record, I am taking noted lack of debris in the circle after the flare to mean most of it was probably vaporized, though it could have easily been flung far outside the circle, the required energy for which can also be calculated, but required a lot more work for figure out.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Is the size of Edge anywhere in the Ultimania? If not Edge, maybe Midgar, and we can go from there?

 

[Deus]

How colorful.
Who knew wanting facts in a debate was so crazy? I'm shamed.

Actually, with some hard numbers and a lower limit, we actually can say if Edge would have been blasted, and the MT of the blast Cloud lived through.

Then this I can believe. If someone does this then all is well.

Assuming the calc is right of course.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How colorful.
Who knew wanting facts in a debate was so crazy? I'm shamed.

No, it's not crazy. But expecting to get everything handed on to you on a Nomura shined, silver platter before you believe any of it is crazy. There are a lot of 'facts' I would like on FF7 too, but I'm open to speculate and try to figure things out based on what I do know if 1. I'm not getting those facts or 2. I can't get those facts.

 

[Deus]

But this is a debate. You can't go in with just speculation and win. You want to say Bahamut can blow up a city? Fine. But don't be surprised when people ask for proof beyond your interpretation.

But for now I'm gonna wait and see if anyone can come up with a decent calc and we can continue from there.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well how about this then.

Bahamut Tremor is 5 stories tall.

Now compare his size to the size of the Tremor Flare he spewed out that Cloud cut through.

...Is it really that hard to imagine it would destroy Edge?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But this is a debate. You can't go in with just speculation and win. You want to say Bahamut can blow up a city? Fine. But don't be surprised when people ask for proof beyond your interpretation.

But you're being incorrigible as hell. This is a fictional universe. Do you understand this? There are only so many facts to be had if they're not given to us by the creators. It's one thing if it's Facts vs. Speculation. Fine, the facts will win every time. But if its speculation vs. speculation (which is what this is), the most reasonable speculation wins. It's not like you're bringing any facts to the table. You're just going 'NO NO NO'

 

[Deus]

But you're being incorrigible as hell. This is a fictional universe. Do you understand this? There are only so many facts to be had if they're not given to us by the creators. It's one thing if it's Facts vs. Speculation. Fine, the facts will win every time. But if its speculation vs. speculation (which is what this is), the most reasonable speculation wins. It's not like you're bringing any facts to the table. You're just going 'NO NO NO'

There's dozens, hell, hundreds of fictional universes with things that can't be proven. But that doesn't mean we suddenly open the floodgates just because one side says "well it COULD DO this" and the other side has nothing. Why? Because the proof, as we've already established, is on the positive side. If you say it can do something, you are obligated to prove that. Not simply give personal interpretations of fallible character thoughts.

Do you think everything in Star Trek vs. Star Wars can be proven? No. But guess what? They only use things that can. There is no speculation without hard evidence.

At least not among the real fans. Some Trekkies and Warsies can be quite stupid but I'm thinking more of the legitimate arguments I've seen.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

There's dozens, hell, hundreds of fictional universes with things that can't be proven. But that doesn't mean we suddenly open the floodgates just because one side says "well it COULD DO this" and the other side has nothing. Why? Because the proof, as we've already established, is on the positive side. If you say it can do something, you are obligated to prove that. Not simply give personal interpretations of fallible character thoughts.

I can name many series with things that can't e proven or quantified. Do you think everything in Star Trek vs. Star Wars can be proven? No. But guess what? They only use things that can. There is no speculation without hard evidence.

At least not among the real fans. Some Trekkies and Warsies can be quite stupid but I'm thinking more of the legitimate arguments I've seen.

Well uh, I disagree. I believe there is such as thing as reasonable speculation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'll repeat.

Bahamut Tremor is 5 stories tall.

Cloud is 5'7.

Tremor Flare dwarfs not only Cloud but even Bahamut Tremor himself.

So going by the sheer size of the attack..where we see even a tiny man-sized one is capable of destroying the entire Edge Square...how is it a leap in logic to assume that the fully powered Tremor Flare is enough to blast Edge a new asshole?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Cloud is 5'7.

doesnt cloud get taller by the time acc rolls around though?

 

[Deus]

Well uh, I disagree. I believe there is such as thing as reasonable speculation.

I guess it's just a fundamental disagreement of our debating styles then. I learned to debate ona froum where only hard facts were allowed. It's just how I am now.

I'll repeat.

Bahamut Tremor is 5 stories tall.

Cloud is 5'7.

Tremor Flare dwarfs not only Cloud but even Bahamut Tremor himself.

So going by the sheer size of the attack..where we see even a tiny man-sized one is capable of destroying the entire Edge Square...how is it a leap in logic to assume that the fully powered Tremor Flare is enough to blast Edge a new asshole?

Tearing it a new asshole is fine. I've already said so.
Blowing it up is another matter.
We don't even know the size of Edge so even if you had an exact calc for the size of the blast it wouldn't prove anything.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I learned to debate ona froum where only hard facts were allowed. It's just how I am now.

I'd hate to see you get into a scientific debate.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm just going by what the 10th Anniversary Profiles state. It states he's 5'7.

Spoiler: So. Here's Cloud's size in relation to the attack. Bear in mind he's 5'7

Spoiler: Here's Bahamut Tremor's size in relation to the attack. Bahamut is 5 stories tall. That's around 50 feet

Spoiler: And here's all three of them in the same pic.

Now are you telling me an attack of that size..isn't enough to destroy the city of Edge? After a flare the size of a small adult was enough to destroy a city block?

There is no definite size given to Edge, just like there is no definite size given to Midgar. But use common sense and mathematical scaling.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I learned to debate ona froum where only hard facts were allowed. It's just how I am now.

To clarify; there is just some shit you're never going to know. Ever. So are you just going to just pretend that stuff doesn't exist until you know? You fill in the holes based on what you DO know. Not allowing yourself to speculate is just inflexibility that doesn't do you any favors and actually IMPEDES your intellectual growth.

No offense, but it makes you look like an idiot.

I'm just going by what the 10th Anniversary Profiles state. It states he's 5'7.

Really? I thought there was something that said he was 5'9 in ACC. We were discussing it here a few months ago. The more you know.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Mog, let's use a smaller Cloud to scale the flare to, to we get a more conservative flare.

Using that size, and the assumption of around, 1.8 kt for the 2m^3 (it is even that big? Might be 1.8m^3) flare will give us a rough estimate of the kt or mt of the blast.

Anyone got a good sidelong shot of Cloud and the flare, or it and Tremor?

Edit- nevermind, that's at LEAST 500 ft wide, and that's not even accounting for including the length of the fusion swords in that blur that is Cloud.

Using 500ft as my lazy lower limit for the size of this blast, and the 2m overestimate of the miniflare, that means that this flare is over 80 times as wide as the miniflare, which is 166m^3. Now, as 80 of the miniflares fit in simply the diameter, much less the rest of the volume this easily gives us an Uberlazy minimum of 146kt of TNT. Now, unless I've made a gross error at the very beginning, which, I'll admit, is possible, since I've been more than lazy, this gives us something far stronger than Nagasaki, but not yet on the scale of the majority of nuclear devices. This, is of, course, with quick and dirty assumptions and using values well below the lower limits.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Look at my last post dude.

 

[ForceStealer]

Wow Mako, you know I never really appreciated how huge that attack was before, lol. Geez.