Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Cat Rage Room]

Keep in mind guys, that you can only go so far arguing the point of Sephiroth utilizing his tactical options in this fight. Keep in mind that Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud, and Cloud won by exploiting his weaknesses and outsmarting Sephiroth, which is a perfectly acceptable, solid win and doesn't mean Sephiroth spent the entire fight holding back or dicking around.

If Sephiroth fought at his very best and made all the right choices, he would have won, that simple. But he didn't, and Cloud whooped his ass. That's legit, and you see the same thing all the time in real life, from boxing matches to wars.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Tres mentioned flunkies. He wins the debate.

Thank you, thank you. Was hoping somebody would catch the reference. Been dying to find a way to work that in.

Keep in mind guys, that you can only go so far arguing the point of Sephiroth utilizing his tactical options in this fight. Keep in mind that Sephiroth is stronger than Cloud, and Cloud won by exploiting his weaknesses and outsmarting Sephiroth, which is a perfectly acceptable, solid win and doesn't mean Sephiroth spent the entire fight holding back or dicking around.

Did Cloud outsmart Seph in any way? As far as I can see, all he did was hit his spiritual peak and then move really fast for a few seconds.

Other than Seph not expecting that move, which I guess you can call outsmarting him.

If Sephiroth fought at his very best and made all the right choices, he would have won, that simple. But he didn't, and Cloud whooped his ass. That's legit, and you see the same thing all the time in real life, from boxing matches to wars.

So he held back.

He had to have gotten a lung, given where the sword enters, and c'mon..that's a vital too.

But you said "vitals." [/nitpicky bastard]

LOL, he did already offer Cloud despair during the fight. Afterwards he endures Cloud's strongest limit break and impales him, showing Cloud how powerless he was against his might. He then asks if this was the pain he felt before, and subsequently promises him he won't forget it this time.

I don't see how all of that is not inflicting despair. Cloud was in a truly hopeless position. Sephiroth not only showed his superiority to an exhausted Cloud by not getting touched by his ultimate limit break, he then subsequently inflicts an impalement to his chest, leaving him utterly helpless to counter attack or get free. Sephiroth gloats over this happening before, and promises Cloud he won't ever forget it. Cue the massacre in the sky, and yeah...that's Sephiroth's totally inflicting pain and despair on Cloud. Cloud could've died right there and Sephiroth would've done what he set out to do.

Cloud's used to enduring all kinds of shit himself, though. You're not going to make him despair until you remind him that he couldn't protect the people he cares about and leave him with that as his last thought.

You're right. That's very true. But what about the fact that he wanted all the Sephiroth copies to return to him at the Northern Crater so that he could slaughter them and use their Jenova cells to aid in his regeneration? If he just threw all of them away for the Black Materia, he would've lost the precious cells that would help give him a new body.

He only needed to throw away one, though -- and he happily threw away parts of JENOVA for the Birth, Life and Death battles. I don't think it would have been a big deal to him.

So you think he could've just force-choked them all there or something instantly? Seems like even then they were resisting and it was that resistance that allowed them to break free. What could he have done then that would've caused them to somehow instantly die then and there?

Shank or bisect all of them. Starting with Cloud and Vincent.

So that's how you took that close up of Sephiroth turning his head towards the viewer? I saw that was just as an artistic close up of Sephiroth as he was while listening to them speak. I didn't think that was indicative at all of his positioning. Just an ominous close up of Sephiroth to show that he was aware of what was going on.

The only time we physically see where he is in position of the room is when he swoops down from above.

No, notice that his sword is on-screen before the rest of him for the phase/swoop moment. It's very close to the camera and then moves further away as he goes toward the spot where he's going to land.

No, it was always there. Even when that profile and translation was hosted on AC.net. You can go to the AC.net site's translations of the profile we did and see that same bit of translated text was included there as well.

We included it because of the whole debate of whether or not Vincent and Yuffie were present during the final confrontation with Sephiroth or not.

Damn. Don't know how I forgot that.

It's rather funny that this gives us yet another blatant contradiction, then, now that Nojima's revised -- via Case of Shin-Ra -- the timing of the Midgar evacuations from the beginning of DC to be before the team goes into the Northern Crater.

Which is where it should have been all along.

Ahh okay then. Fair enough. That does make sense.

At the very least we're coming to an understanding regarding a good bit of these things.

Indeed. I think we've reached an agreement on most of it now.

Still eager to see your next reply, though.

 

[ForceStealer]

You're not going to make him despair until you remind him that he couldn't protect the people he cares about and leave him with that as his last thought.

By saying what he(Sephiroth) did though, that's essentially what he did. I'm going to kill you, and then everyone you care about are sitting ducks.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

By saying what he(Sephiroth) did though, that's essentially what he did. I'm going to kill you, and then everyone you care about are sitting ducks.

That's what I mean, though -- his line where he asked what Cloud cherishes most would be fulfilling that. But asking him if he remembers "this pain"? That's not going to do it.

 

[ForceStealer]

Oh oh oh, I see where you were going with that. Sorry.

I still agree that there was no reason for Sephiroth to expect he'd lose at this point. Cloud was at "full" capability and with a platoon of near-superbeings the last time he lost. And the time before that he had only stabbed him in the chest.

After a wound in the chest and repeatedly stabbing him such that the blood loss alone would kill him momentarily, as Ryu said before, we're kind of debating "holding back" in the fight versus "toying with an already defeated enemy."

And even then, Sephiroth didn't give Cloud much time before his killing blow. Cloud hadn't even stood up yet by the time Sephiroth was bearing down for the kill.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But you said "vitals." [/nitpicky bastard]

Nitpicky indeed!

Cloud's used to enduring all kinds of shit himself, though. You're not going to make him despair until you remind him that he couldn't protect the people he cares about and leave him with that as his last thought.

I think that's a bit much. The fact Cloud is being made helpless and about to be killed due to being unable to overcome the one enemy to the world and his family, is definitely enough to make him despair. Especially when he's fighting for his family and to end this crisis that threatens the world.

The fact that his best wasn't good enough would certainly send him into a state of despair. Look at his reaction to being infected with Geostigma. That's Cloud himself dealing with shit in his own body. And it sends him into depression. Why? Because him being sick and dying doesn't allow him to protect his family. He's being made weak and unable to save himself or his family.

That's the same pain and despair Sephiroth inflicted on Cloud right then and there. You can see the fear and desperation on his face as he's on that sword. It's definitely not just something he shrugged off.

He only needed to throw away one, though -- and he happily threw away parts of JENOVA for the Birth, Life and Death battles. I don't think it would have been a big deal to him.

Well once again you got me. That's good point.

Shank or bisect all of them. Starting with Cloud and Vincent.

LOL, well I suppose.

No, notice that his sword is on-screen before the rest of him for the phase/swoop moment. It's very close to the camera and then moves further away as he goes toward the spot where he's going to land.

...I'm not seeing what you mean. His sword is on-screen before him? Huh..?

Damn. Don't know how I forgot that.

It's rather funny that this gives us yet another blatant contradiction, then, now that Nojima's revised -- via Case of Shin-Ra -- the timing of the Midgar evacuations from the beginning of DC to be before the team goes into the Northern Crater.

Which is where it should have been all along.

Yeah it should've been there all along, but apparently...well...

So yeah, there you go. That's what they said about Yuffie and Vincent before Case of Shinra.

Indeed. I think we've reached an agreement on most of it now.

Still eager to see your next reply, though.

I'm glad I'm so exciting

 

[Makoeyes987]

Btw, Tres got so excited by this topic apparently, he decided to write a front page article on it

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I'm crying at the idea of Garland being the third-strongest villain in the series....I mean yeah he's badass, but third-strongest? Really?

Sephiroth outranks Kefka if only because Sephiroth was known to be able to extend his influence to dominate more planets. As far as we know, Kefka was only able to be the god of one

Excuse me, when did Sephiroth ever show the ability to dominate other worlds?

The Warrior of Light and Onion Knight outranking the likes of Cloud and Terra is also highly displeasing.

I also want to know how Zidane and Squall being stronger than Seifer and Kuja means they outrank Terra. By that logic, Terra beat Kefka in Dissidia, and Kefka's end form is ranked higher than Kuja, so shouldn't she outrank Zidane?

it’s considered by this author that the two villains weren’t legitimately trying to kill Bartz or Firion then

Can you not assume the same for all the villains then?

And also, what the hell is Fran doing on the list at all? You don't *have* to represent FF12, I didn't see Gabranth or Vayne up on the villain list. There are many heroes stronger than her - Celes comes to mind, as does Rinoa, and pretty much any of the summoners like Yuna or Garnet. Rinoa is damn annoying but she's a Sorceress, doesn't that count for anything?

I know I'll make a few people angry saying this, but this article displeases me. Not happy at all.

 

[ForceStealer]

I was waiting for our resident FF6 champion to raise hell about this

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tresdias needs to get his ass back here, reply to my post, and explain his utterly INSANE front page article.

Crazy bastard will pay for this!

I'm crying at the idea of Garland being the third-strongest villain in the series....I mean yeah he's badass, but third-strongest? Really?

To be honest, it makes perfect sense with Dissidia.

Excuse me, when did Sephiroth ever show the ability to dominate other worlds?

Heh heh... Im gonna guess and say he means Sephiroth's ability to corrupt and manipulate the spirit energy of the planet, ala Geostigma. But yeah.

Sephiroth still is better than Kefka anyways taking that factor out of the equation.

The Warrior of Light and Onion Knight outranking the likes of Cloud and Terra is also highly displeasing.

THIS.

I don't know what glue Tres was sniffing while writing this up, but I find that to be nonsense.

I also want to know how Zidane and Squall being stronger than Seifer and Kuja means they outrank Terra. By that logic, Terra beat Kefka in Dissidia, and Kefka's end form is ranked higher than Kuja, so shouldn't she outrank Zidane?

Now this I am curious about. Again, it must be the glue.

And also, what the hell is Fran doing on the list at all? You don't *have* to represent FF12, I didn't see Gabranth or Vayne up on the villain list. There are many heroes stronger than her - Celes comes to mind, as does Rinoa, and pretty much any of the summoners like Yuna or Garnet. Rinoa is damn annoying but she's a Sorceress, doesn't that count for anything?

Fran's overwhelming sexiness and badass factor allowed her inclusion on this list. It's not that surprising.

I know I'll make a few people angry saying this, but this article displeases me. Not happy at all.

I think this was TresDias's plan all along. You should make an angry insulting comment on the front page. DO IT.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think that's a bit much. The fact Cloud is being made helpless and about to be killed due to being unable to overcome the one enemy to the world and his family, is definitely enough to make him despair. Especially when he's fighting for his family and to end this crisis that threatens the world.

The fact that his best wasn't good enough would certainly send him into a state of despair. Look at his reaction to being infected with Geostigma. That's Cloud himself dealing with shit in his own body. And it sends him into depression. Why? Because him being sick and dying doesn't allow him to protect his family. He's being made weak and unable to save himself or his family.

That's the same pain and despair Sephiroth inflicted on Cloud right then and there. You can see the fear and desperation on his face as he's on that sword. It's definitely not just something he shrugged off.

That's a fair enough point. Still, I just can't see Seph finishing him without getting that last gloat in.

...I'm not seeing what you mean. His sword is on-screen before him? Huh..?

Watch the video from 4:46 to 4:48:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYuf3Cw25s#t=4m46s

The sword starts out right in front of the camera/wall and then moves far away from it. To me, that gives the impression that he's coming through the wall.

Yeah it should've been there all along, but apparently...well...

So yeah, there you go. That's what they said about Yuffie and Vincent before Case of Shinra.

Another detail to add to the contradictions section of my FAQ then.

I'm glad I'm so exciting

!

I know I'll make a few people angry saying this, but this article displeases me. Not happy at all.

Glad to be of service.

But seriously, I knew there would be disagreements. Still, "to thine ownself be true," as the Bard would say.

Excuse me, when did Sephiroth ever show the ability to dominate other worlds?

When he talked about flying Gaia across the cosmos to take over another planet.

I'm crying at the idea of Garland being the third-strongest villain in the series....

...

The Warrior of Light and Onion Knight outranking the likes of Cloud and Terra is also highly displeasing.

Sorry, dude.

I also want to know how Zidane and Squall being stronger than Seifer and Kuja means they outrank Terra. By that logic, Terra beat Kefka in Dissidia, and Kefka's end form is ranked higher than Kuja, so shouldn't she outrank Zidane?

Perhaps. Do we know if Zidane or Squall wouldn't be able to win that fight, though?

I'm open to being proven wrong, of course.

Can you not assume the same for all the villains then?

Of course you can, with the exceptions of Jecht and Golbez anyway. Though one gets the impression that Garland was trying for real as well.

At any rate, all of the villains were definitely trying during Shade Impulse, with the possible exception of Sephiroth. In that segment of the story, most of the heroes take down their respective villains solo -- except, of course, for Bartz, Firion and Warrior of Light.

And also, what the hell is Fran doing on the list at all? You don't *have* to represent FF12, I didn't see Gabranth or Vayne up on the villain list. There are many heroes stronger than her - Celes comes to mind, as does Rinoa, and pretty much any of the summoners like Yuna or Garnet. Rinoa is damn annoying but she's a Sorceress, doesn't that count for anything?

Fran is on the list because I was trying to pick one hero or villain to represent each game. If Cloud and Squall hadn't tied, Firion wouldn't have ranked at all.

Yes, Celes is more powerful than Fran, but Terra is more powerful than Celes.

As for Gabranth and Vayne, they aren't there because neither is as strong as the weakest of the other villains.

Squall edges out Rinoa -- being a witch certainly counts for something, though, yes -- because he defeats Ultimecia, who has Rinoa's powers and wields them even more effectively than she does.

I'm glad you brought that up, by the way, as I meant to add an explanation concerning Rinoa and Squall.

Tresdias needs to get his ass back here, reply to my post, and explain his utterly INSANE front page article.

Crazy bastard will pay for this!

I'm crying at the idea of Garland being the third-strongest villain in the series....I mean yeah he's badass, but third-strongest? Really?

To be honest, it makes perfect sense with Dissidia.

There's hope for you yet, Mako.

The Warrior of Light and Onion Knight outranking the likes of Cloud and Terra is also highly displeasing.

THIS.

I don't know what glue Tres was sniffing while writing this up, but I find that to be nonsense.

Onion Knight took down the Cloud of Darkness by himself. Four Warriors of Light took down Chaos.

It's going to be hard to sway me on this one, but I'm open to efforts to try.

Fran's overwhelming sexiness and badass factor allowed her inclusion on this list. It's not that surprising.

Certainly didn't hurt her chances.

I know I'll make a few people angry saying this, but this article displeases me. Not happy at all.

I think this was TresDias's plan all along.

[Insert the tagline to "Don't Say A Word" here]

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a fair enough point. Still, I just can't see Seph finishing him without getting that last gloat in.

You wouldn't think that had you not seen the previous AC, or they never included that line to begin with. I think hindsight may make you partial to seeing the fight as incomplete without that memorable line thrown in. If you clear your mind of the previous fight and just look at it from the point on from ACC's impalement scene and then Cloud being slammed down from the sky, it could also work within the frame of Sephiroth's intent as well.

But I'm glad you see what I mean now.

Watch the video from 4:46 to 4:48:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYuf3Cw25s#t=4m46s

The sword starts out right in front of the camera/wall and then moves far away from it. To me, that gives the impression that he's coming through the wall.

Oh I see what you mean.

To be honest I just saw that as artistic scene direction. Since we see Sephiroth in front of of the camera, and then he "walks off" to go back to the scene and interact with Tseng. You saw that as him phasing through the wall?

One question I'd like to ask then, is...if he's on the other side of the wall, how is he able to look at Tseng and Elena talking and hear them? I don't think he has X-Ray vision.

Honestly I think that was just the scene's direction and artistic license with the whole depiction. Him actually swooping in on them is what makes the most sense.

Another detail to add to the contradictions section of my FAQ then.

There you go

But seriously, I knew there would be disagreements. Still, "to thine ownself be true," as the Bard would say.

Your true self sucks. Be a clone of me.

When he talked about flying Gaia across the cosmos to take over another planet.

To be honest, Sephiroth's word shouldn't be necessarily taken as fact. We don't know how Sephiroth's integration into another planet's lifestream would go. It might not be as easy as assimilating Gaia's lifestream in FFVII.

Let's say Sephiroth miraculously makes his way to Spira again. What if due to the strange property of Spira's spirit energy..it made Sephiroth's goal of controlling it a lot more difficult? We shouldn't really take Sephiroth's words of intent as gospel.

Sorry, dude.

You don't seem all that sorry. </Kadaj>

Perhaps. Do we know if Zidane or Squall wouldn't be able to win that fight, though?

I'm open to being proven wrong, of course.

Well there's no way of certainly knowing any of that. But I do find it telling that it took a powerhouse like Cloud to finally subdue Terra's Esper rampage and allow Terra to regain her sanity.

At any rate, all of the villains were definitely trying during Shade Impulse, with the possible exception of Sephiroth. In that segment of the story, most of the heroes take down their respective villains solo -- except, of course, for Bartz, Firion and Warrior of Light.

Don't make me cut you.

Fran is on the list because I was trying to pick one hero or villain to represent each game. If Cloud and Squall hadn't tied, Firion wouldn't have ranked at all.

And you let your cock do the choicing. Good job. Because Basch, Balthier or Vaan wouldn't work right?

Yes, Celes is more powerful than Fran, but Terra is more powerful than Celes.

Can't really argue that.

As for Gabranth and Vayne, they aren't there because neither is as strong as the weakest of the other villains.

Gabranth and Vayne were still pretty strong though. Maybe not compared to the likes of Sephiroth or Kefka, but still damn strong.

Squall edges out Rinoa -- being a witch certainly counts for something, though, yes -- because he defeats Ultimecia, who has Rinoa's powers and wields them even more effectively than she does.

Very good point.

Onion Knight took down the Cloud of Darkness by himself. Four Warriors of Light took down Chaos.

Cloud of Darkness so didn't even give a shit. She didn't even die. She just went back to sleep.

And you're really gonna tell me Cloud couldn't handle the Cloud of Darkness? Really? The damn Onion Knight was pissing his pants and had to get smacked around before he finally got his resolve. I'm not trying to shit on the kid but he lacks experience. He's a bit cowardly. Kuroyami no Kumo is not out of the range of Cloud, dude.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

To be honest, Sephiroth's word shouldn't be necessarily taken as fact. We don't know how Sephiroth's integration into another planet's lifestream would go. It might not be as easy as assimilating Gaia's lifestream in FFVII.

Let's say Sephiroth miraculously makes his way to Spira again. What if due to the strange property of Spira's spirit energy..it made Sephiroth's goal of controlling it a lot more difficult? We shouldn't really take Sephiroth's words of intent as gospel.

or what if when he got to spira he got his ass kicked

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You wouldn't think that had you not seen the previous AC, or they never included that line to begin with. I think hindsight may make you partial to seeing the fight as incomplete without that memorable line thrown in.

That's possible.

At any rate, the original version of the fight certainly presented him that way.

Oh I see what you mean.

To be honest I just saw that as artistic scene direction. Since we see Sephiroth in front of of the camera, and then he "walks off" to go back to the scene and interact with Tseng. You saw that as him phasing through the wall?

Si.

One question I'd like to ask then, is...if he's on the other side of the wall, how is he able to look at Tseng and Elena talking and hear them? I don't think he has X-Ray vision.

If he's in the wall, already, though, it's not a problem.

Honestly I think that was just the scene's direction and artistic license with the whole depiction. Him actually swooping in on them is what makes the most sense.

Well, I'm just taking it at face value, I guess.

Your true self sucks. Be a clone of me.

Better to be myself and suck than a clone of suck.

To be honest, Sephiroth's word shouldn't be necessarily taken as fact. We don't know how Sephiroth's integration into another planet's lifestream would go. It might not be as easy as assimilating Gaia's lifestream in FFVII.

It may not, but even if the best he could do is fly there and physically conquer it, that's still more than we know Kefka could have done.

Let's say Sephiroth miraculously makes his way to Spira again. What if due to the strange property of Spira's spirit energy..it made Sephiroth's goal of controlling it a lot more difficult? We shouldn't really take Sephiroth's words of intent as gospel.

Weren't you just remind me not too long ago how strong the fucker's will is?

In any case, I'd think Spira would be pretty damn easy to control, what with the unsent being nearly as populous as the living. XD That planet doesn't seem all that strong to me.

You don't seem all that sorry. </Kadaj>

"Sorry? Why, I've never had this much fun."

Well there's no way of certainly knowing any of that. But I do find it telling that it took a powerhouse like Cloud to finally subdue Terra's Esper rampage and allow Terra to regain her sanity.

Fair enough. But I am also saying in the list that Cloud is stronger than her.

For that matter, though, as long as we're talking about Onion Knight, he fought her while she was in that state and emerged unscathed.

Don't make me cut you.

Still haven't accepted the truth, eh?

And you let your cock do the choicing. Good job.

Had to start -- and stop -- somewhere.

Because Basch, Balthier or Vaan wouldn't work right?

Well, I genuinely don't think any of them are as physically powerful as her.

Can't really argue that.

As soon as you recognize that this is true about all the points I'm making, the better off we'll all be.

Gabranth and Vayne were still pretty strong though. Maybe not compared to the likes of Sephiroth or Kefka, but still damn strong.

Not saying they're weaklings, but the list only goes as far back as tenth place, dammit. XD

Cloud of Darkness so didn't even give a shit. She didn't even die. She just went back to sleep.

What's the difference where she's concerned? Look at what she is. The Void's not going anywhere.

And you're really gonna tell me Cloud couldn't handle the Cloud of Darkness? Really? The damn Onion Knight was pissing his pants and had to get smacked around before he finally got his resolve. I'm not trying to shit on the kid but he lacks experience. He's a bit cowardly. Kuroyami no Kumo is not out of the range of Cloud, dude.

I wouldn't use OK's cowardice and lack of experience as the standard for what Cloud could do, though. In fact, his inexperience and general avoidance of battle is why I placed the Warrior of Light -- someone with comparable powers, as far as we can tell -- above him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's possible.

At any rate, the original version of the fight certainly presented him that way.

Yeah, but the original version sucked so let's pretend it never existed.

If he's in the wall, already, though, it's not a problem.

See, I can't buy that. Sephiroth and Jenova are not Shadowcat of the X-Men. If they had that ability to literally phase through any solid object at will, that would open up an entirely new avenue of abilities, fighting powers, and moments in the Compilation that would be stupid to leave out. It wouldn't make narrative sense.

If Jenova and Sephiroth could move like a ghost through solid matter, why bother busting through the Shinra Building Jenova container, and the doors? Why bother spearing the Midgar Golem on a tree if it fould just phase through it and rip its heart out or some other ultra violent, self destructive method?

None of the entries on Jenova ever say the creature or Sephiroth possess the ability to phase through solid matter. At most, Jenova could perhaps liquefy itself, detach itself, or change its shape to pass through a porous or segmented surface...but it can't make itself a ghost. Nowhere does it say it can do that. The only time we see something like that is once in FFVII when it appears in the Cargo Hold..which could easily be explained by it using its illusionary psychic abilities to suddenly appear.

And then the same could be used in this case as well. If it had such an extraordinary and reality/space-time bending ability such as phasing through solid matter, don't you think the creators would've mentioned it somewhere? Or it would've been mentioned in the Compilation by the characters?

Better to be myself and suck than a clone of suck.

You bastard...

It may not, but even if the best he could do is fly there and physically conquer it, that's still more than we know Kefka could have done.

So if Kefka says he intended to conquer another planet by flying off into space, that would've been evidence to it being possible too?

I'm just saying we shouldn't be taking what the characters say at face value here. For all we know Spira's spirit energy could be like poison or be immune to his will due to its pyrefly-like nature. I already agree that Sephiroth edges out Kefka, but I think the reason you use is a bit flimsy here.

Weren't you just remind me not too long ago how strong the fucker's will is?

It is, definitely.

In any case, I'd think Spira would be pretty damn easy to control, what with the unsent being nearly as populous as the living. XD That planet doesn't seem all that strong to me.

Perhaps, but because of how Spira's spirit energy reacts differently when compared to FFVII's, we really can't know for sure how Sephiroth's will would effect it. It's inconclusive.

"Sorry? Why, I've never had this much fun."

Fair enough. But I am also saying in the list that Cloud is stronger than her.

For that matter, though, as long as we're talking about Onion Knight, he fought her while she was in that state and emerged unscathed.

She crapped out. The Slave Crown exhausted her too fast and she had to retreat. And Onion Knight seemed pretty scared.

Well, I genuinely don't think any of them are as physically powerful as her.

Damn right. A naked, furry, glowy, magical female is not to be fucked with.

What's the difference where she's concerned? Look at what she is. The Void's not going anywhere.

Yeah, good point. But I suppose you're working off the premise of your own list, as since Cloud of Darkness is ranked higher than Sephiroth, and thus you see Onion Knight beating Cloud of Darkness alone as more of a testament of strength than Cloud beating Sephiroth alone. I disagree with that somewhat.

I wouldn't use OK's cowardice and lack of experience as the standard for what Cloud could do, though. In fact, his inexperience and general avoidance of battle is why I placed the Warrior of Light -- someone with comparable powers, as far as we can tell -- above him.

Explain yourself please.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, but the original version sucked so let's pretend it never existed.

XD You'd like that, wouldn't you?

See, I can't buy that. Sephiroth and Jenova are not Shadowcat of the X-Men. If they had that ability to literally phase through any solid object at will, that would open up an entirely new avenue of abilities, fighting powers, and moments in the Compilation that would be stupid to leave out. It wouldn't make narrative sense.

...

If it had such an extraordinary and reality/space-time bending ability such as phasing through solid matter, don't you think the creators would've mentioned it somewhere? Or it would've been mentioned in the Compilation by the characters?

Do they have to tell us that Seph can fly or do we see it with our own eyes? Do they have to tell us that he can use telekinesis, or can we just figure it out since he didn't arm wrestle half of the Shin-Ra building to the ground?

So if Kefka says he intended to conquer another planet by flying off into space, that would've been evidence to it being possible too?

In this case, Seph told us that was his entire plan. The last time he stood in front of Cloud and talked about his plan -- which also involved some wacky metaphysics as far as what he was going to do to the planet -- he was right on the money.

I'm just saying we shouldn't be taking what the characters say at face value here. For all we know Spira's spirit energy could be like poison or be immune to his will due to its pyrefly-like nature. I already agree that Sephiroth edges out Kefka, but I think the reason you use is a bit flimsy here.

Like I said, the important thing is that Seph's capable of getting to another planet.

She crapped out. The Slave Crown exhausted her too fast and she had to retreat. And Onion Knight seemed pretty scared.

I agree that he seemed scared. But he was still fine.

Damn right. A naked, furry, glowy, magical female is not to be fucked with.

Oh, I think a naked, furry, glowy, magical female is totally to be fucked with.

Yeah, good point. But I suppose you're working off the premise of your own list, as since Cloud of Darkness is ranked higher than Sephiroth, and thus you see Onion Knight beating Cloud of Darkness alone as more of a testament of strength than Cloud beating Sephiroth alone.

Yep, exactly!

Explain yourself please.

Well, they're both Warriors of Light, and they both have obvious connections to the crystals of their worlds. I'm assuming they probably have the same power source.

But given Warrior of Light's consistent willingness to go into battle, as well as his obvious greater experience, I'd place him above his younger counterpart from Earth 3 -- er, from FFIII.

 

[Makoeyes987]

XD You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Well ACC was just so much more superior than the rather dull version we had before. A bit more excitement, blood, and effort from both characters made a helluva difference.

Do they have to tell us that Seph can fly or do we see it with our own eyes? Do they have to tell us that he can use telekinesis, or can we just figure it out since he didn't arm wrestle half of the Shin-Ra building to the ground?

Flying, and telekinesis are not on the same level as literally being able to shift one's physical form to another dimension to phase through it. That is an entirely different ballgame than just mere flying and telekinesis. Abilities displayed by other opponents, and specifically referenced in the game proper and related materials.

We only see Sephiroth clearly demonstrate something like that once. And that can be chalked up to illusion because of the previous feats Jenova has done before. But to automatically equate it to Shadowcat of the X-Men, with no such reference to such a phenomenal and reality bending ability ever being made in the story or Ultimania seems a bit much.

Ultimecia, a woman who can literally manipulate time, had her reality bending ability explicitly stated in the narrative and FF books. There's no question about it. An ability to move through solid matter would need the same level of explanation.

In this case, Seph told us that was his entire plan. The last time he stood in front of Cloud and talked about his plan -- which also involved some wacky metaphysics as far as what he was going to do to the planet -- he was right on the money.

That's because he came from that planet. He knows the planet of Gaia because he soaked in its Lifestream and understood its mechanics. Sephiroth's smart but he doesn't know how every planet in the universe works.

Hell in Dissidia, he took a gamble on his killing himself allowing him to come back. He didn't know, he made a guess. He's not quite infallible.

Like I said, the important thing is that Seph's capable of getting to another planet.

Just getting to another planet doesn't assure his conquest of it. The planet may be poison to him, or could be too large to consume or whatever. Or as MOG said..he could get his ass kicked.

I agree that he seemed scared. But he was still fine.

The fight was cut short, and Terra's transformation there wasn't nearly its full potential because the Slave Crown was screwing her up. Who knows how it would've gone, but clearly Onion Knight felt he was outmatched.

Well, they're both Warriors of Light, and they both have obvious connections to the crystals of their worlds. I'm assuming they probably have the same power source.

But given Warrior of Light's consistent willingness to go into battle, as well as his obvious greater experience, I'd place him above his younger counterpart from Earth 3 -- er, from FFIII.

Are we sure all Warriors of Light are created equal? They're similar but I hardly think their power from the crystals can be so easily quantified and referred to as the same power source. The crystals of FFIII aren't the same as the crystals of FF1.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well ACC was just so much more superior than the rather dull version we had before. A bit more excitement, blood, and effort from both characters made a helluva difference.

Agreed.

Flying, and telekinesis are not on the same level as literally being able to shift one's physical form to another dimension to phase through it. That is an entirely different ballgame than just mere flying and telekinesis. Abilities displayed by other opponents, and specifically referenced in the game proper and related materials.

We only see Sephiroth clearly demonstrate something like that once. And that can be chalked up to illusion because of the previous feats Jenova has done before. But to automatically equate it to Shadowcat of the X-Men, with no such reference to such a phenomenal and reality bending ability ever being made in the story or Ultimania seems a bit much.

Ultimecia, a woman who can literally manipulate time, had her reality bending ability explicitly stated in the narrative and FF books. There's no question about it. An ability to move through solid matter would need the same level of explanation.

I don't feel it would need the same level of explanation. I mean, let's take the fact that he can teleport, or address the question you were asking in your previous post with that: If he and JENOVA can teleport, why theatrically blast the hatch off JENOVA's containment pod? Why do any of those things?

Answer: Because it's Seph.

That's because he came from that planet. He knows the planet of Gaia because he soaked in its Lifestream and understood its mechanics. Sephiroth's smart but he doesn't know how every planet in the universe works.

Hell in Dissidia, he took a gamble on his killing himself allowing him to come back. He didn't know, he made a guess. He's not quite infallible.

...

Just getting to another planet doesn't assure his conquest of it. The planet may be poison to him, or could be too large to consume or whatever. Or as MOG said..he could get his ass kicked.

Sure. But he can get there.

The fight was cut short, and Terra's transformation there wasn't nearly its full potential because the Slave Crown was screwing her up. Who knows how it would've gone, but clearly Onion Knight felt he was outmatched.

I'm not so sure the Slave Crown was literally on her heard as far as the story goes for that scene. She hadn't been captured yet, and there was no opportunity for anyone to stick anything on her head in the scene where she starts freaking out.

She just started freaking out.

Are we sure all Warriors of Light are created equal? They're similar but I hardly think their power from the crystals can be so easily quantified and referred to as the same power source. The crystals of FFIII aren't the same as the crystals of FF1.

Seem to do pretty much the same thing. Except FFIII's crystals talk apparently.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't feel it would need the same level of explanation. I mean, let's take the fact that he can teleport, or address the question you were asking in your previous post with that: If he and JENOVA can teleport, why theatrically blast the hatch off JENOVA's containment pod? Why do any of those things?

Answer: Because it's Seph.

I guess now's the time to say that I'm not a believer that Sephiroth can teleport outside of the Kingdom Hearts universe.

High speed movement isn't necessary the same as teleportation. The fastest we see Sephiroth move in one of the CC DMW scenes, still has him going from point A to point B.

If Sephiroth can teleport, then I guess Cloud can too when he's being under the influence of Jenova cells and Sephiroth.

I'm not so sure the Slave Crown was literally on her heard as far as the story goes for that scene. She hadn't been captured yet, and there was no opportunity for anyone to stick anything on her head in the scene where she starts freaking out.

She just started freaking out.

She started freaking out because the Cloud of Darkness somehow used her magic powers to place one on her head. That's why she's stated as having one "equipped" in the pre-battle scene. It's a nod to how she went evil and destructive back in FFVI.

And it makes perfect sense, given that it was at Kefka's behest that Cloud of Darkness started toying with her. More than likely he would be the one to give her the device to do so.

Seem to do pretty much the same thing. Except FFIII's crystals talk apparently.

Well talking is a pretty big difference don't you think?

 

[Makoeyes987]

And this goes to show how slow I am today but...

Who the fuck do you think you are, saying Rydia's more powerful than Cecil, you bastard? What the fuck?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Regarding 'phasing through objects', Jenova can have her cells act independently of each other, so it's possible that if she is faced with porous or otherwise not watertight surfaces, she and/or the Puppet Sephy can move through these much like a gel could, without literally 'phasing through'

Otherwise, the door in ShinRa tower wouldn't need to be forced open.

And Mako, it was so he could get the last of their kind hat trick in.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess now's the time to say that I'm not a believer that Sephiroth can teleport outside of the Kingdom Hearts universe.

High speed movement isn't necessary the same as teleportation. The fastest we see Sephiroth move in one of the CC DMW scenes, still has him going from point A to point B.

Mako and I ended up discussing most of this on MSN, but I just wanted to say for the benefit of others following this thread, he still doesn't feel that Seph can teleport, whereas I feel -- due to him teleporting often in Dissidia, and what looks like at least once in the original game -- that he can.

If Sephiroth can teleport, then I guess Cloud can too when he's being under the influence of Jenova cells and Sephiroth.

On this topic, Mako still feels that it was all just illusion, whereas I feel that Seph actually teleported Cloud, Tifa and another member of his team into the room in this scene. At any rate, Tifa and the third party member appear on the opposite side of the room from the entrance/exit, so they didn't walk in.

She started freaking out because the Cloud of Darkness somehow used her magic powers to place one on her head. That's why she's stated as having one "equipped" in the pre-battle scene. It's a nod to how she went evil and destructive back in FFVI.

Seems like it would have been shown or OK would have seen it and commened on it. But, alright, fair enough.

Well talking is a pretty big difference don't you think?

The crystals still seem to do basically the same thing in their respective worlds.

And this goes to show how slow I am today but...

Who the fuck do you think you are, saying Rydia's more powerful than Cecil, you bastard? What the fuck?

In all seriousness, though, when the team -- including Paladin Cecil -- is getting trounced by Golbez and his summon, who turns the tide?

And Mako, it was so he could get the last of their kind hat trick in.

At least somebody gets it. Somebody appreciates me.

Mako.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

In all seriousness, though, when the team -- including Paladin Cecil -- is getting trounced by Golbez and his summon, who turns the tide?

I think an overall average of your capabilities is more of an indicator of how 'high you are on the tier list' than a one shot ability, even if it is really strong.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako and I ended up discussing most of this on MSN, but I just wanted to say for the benefit of others following this thread, he still doesn't feel that Seph can teleport, whereas I feel -- due to him teleporting often in Dissidia, and what looks like at least once in the original game -- that he can.

All the villains can teleport in Dissidia's storyline. It's the way they move. It's either Tele magic or some ability bestowed upon them by Chaos. And again, with Sephiroth flickering like that in that scene, it seems more illusionary than anything to me. Just like how he was somehow splitting himself in two with Tseng.

Way too many plot holes crop up with a teleporting Jenova and Sephiroth? Again. Why bother forcing its way out of the containment cell? Why bother usnig the keystone? Why bother traveling across oceans if it can teleport?

I seriously don't get how the plot progresion of disc 1 can make sense if Sephiroth/Jenova could just teleport where it wanted to go.

The only villains we know for sure and see teleport in Dissidia as their own abilities are ExDeath, Ultimecia, and Cloud of Darkness. Oh and Chaos of course.

Does anyone else think Sephiroth teleports? I'm seriously surprised. I've never saw those moments in FFVII demonstrating that, or phasing through crap.

On this topic, Mako still feels that it was all just illusion, whereas I feel that Seph actually teleported Cloud, Tifa and another member of his team into the room in this scene. At any rate, Tifa and the third party member appear on the opposite side of the room from the entrance/exit, so they didn't walk in.

That opens up even more cans of plot worms? Teleporting other people?

Cloud somehow used Jenova's illusionary abilities to worm his way into the room without noticing with Tifa and Yuffie behind. They came in during the time elapsed during the flash while everyone else was made unaware of Cloud's presence as well.

But you know what, I'm really curious about that, and I'm gonna have hitoshura look at the FFVII story playback in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania and FFVII Ultimania to see what it says about those scenes and what Sephiroth does. Cause this is definitely interesting.

The crystals still seem to do basically the same thing in their respective worlds.

They're entirely different worlds, man. It's a bit heavy handed to say they do the same thing when we aren't sure. They're similar but exactly the same? That's inconclusive.

In all seriousness, though, when the team -- including Paladin Cecil -- is getting trounced by Golbez and his summon, who turns the tide?

C'mon. That was one singular moment. All Rydia did there was kill the Shadow Dragon. The only reason Cecil and Co. were at Golbez's mercy was because of the strength of his summon. Not Golbez himself. The summon could kill in one hit.

Rydia had the element of surprise on her side and was able to one-shot the extremely weak but powerful monster and allow for a fight against Golbez himself to happen. Saying Rydia's stronger than Cecil because of that one moment alone is way too much, man. Way too much.

But yeah, I really wanna know what the books say on those scenes so I'll ask Hito what it says and hopefully we can resolve this Sephiroth ability dispute

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think an overall average of your capabilities is more of an indicator of how 'high you are on the tier list' than a one shot ability, even if it is really strong.

I'd still give her that one. Early in the story, Rydia comes off as the more potent and better-rounded of the two.

Though Cecil certainlly gains a power-up as a Paladin, Rydia becomes much more powerful as well. Going by what little we have to compare them at that stage, I'm compelled to go with Rydia.

But you know what, I'm really curious about that, and I'm gonna have hitoshura look at the FFVII story playback in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania and FFVII Ultimania to see what it says about those scenes and what Sephiroth does. Cause this is definitely interesting.

It is. Just have hito check the 10th Anniversary book. I have the UO, so I'll look those passages up myself.