Definitive and Absolute Power Tier List.

[Ryushikaze]

An Earth sized planet takes 224,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules to overcome the gravitational binding energy.

1t of TNT, on the other hand, is 4.184 gigajoules.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Geese Howards is just plain highlander immortal.

 

[Deus]

Okay a rough calculation I did gives me the volume of the larger sphere is 14,287x greater than the one in 2:20, going by the assumptions that the sphere in the second vid had a radius of 3 meters (eyeballin' it from various vantage points). The second sphere I assigned a radius of 62.5 meters (25 stories).

If the first attack gave out a single tons worth of TNT then the second sphere would be in the kiloton range, about 25% smaller than Hiroshima nuke.

Rough calc given at a late time (can't sleep 4 shit) so take it with the usual pinch of salt.

The same user made a good point, however.

"If your argument is about whether or not Cloud tanked a citybuster, end the discussion. He didn't even tank a respectable fraction of that. The man is 5'7"."

Even if the attack could destroy a city, Cloud wasn't hit by anything close to its full power; just a portion of it.

EDIT:
Also doesn't the whole thing with Aerith and that blue field or whatever imply it's not just him? He was grunting in pain and looking like he'd be forced back until he sees her and then the field thing appears.

 

[Dashell]

Even if the attack could destroy a city, Cloud wasn't hit by anything close to its full power; just a portion of it.

So you really believe this thing would have just fallen and done absolutely nothing? Or are you tryin to say that it had to grow stronger as it reached the ground? If so, I'm not sure of your point.

Cloud was limit breaking at the time, that's why he was able to get through it. You can tell because he has a shield of some kind around him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

EDIT:
Also doesn't the whole thing with Aerith and that blue field or whatever imply it's not just him? He was grunting in pain and looking like he'd be forced back until he sees her and then the field thing appears.

No, no it doesn't. That's Cloud's own spirit energy charging up, since he's about to Climhazzard Bahamut. All Aerith did was given him the final push in the "relay battle." She didn't do anything but offer her spiritual hand just like his other friends did. That's straight out of the script, Reunion Files, and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. Stop trying to attribute the shit Cloud did in terms cutting through that flare and Bahamut to other people. It's silly.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The explosion involved initially was much more destructive than a single ton of TNT. The fireball and size of the overpressure wave alone prove that much.

And yes, Cloud did not take the full volume of the full sized blast, just the full diamater of it.
But that's like saying you don't get the whole nuke when the bomb is dropped, just a fraction.
Plus, a fraction of a Megaton bomb, if it was such, is still a city killer.


In any case, I doubt the initial blast was 3m, and I know it was more energetic than 1ton of TNT.

 

[Deus]

No, no it doesn't. That's Cloud's own spirit energy charging up, since he's about to Climhazzard Bahamut. All Aerith did was given him the final push in the "relay battle." She didn't do anything but offer her spiritual hand just like his other friends did. That's straight out of the script, Reunion Files, and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. Stop trying to attribute the shit Cloud did in terms cutting through that flare and Bahamut to other people.

I asked a question. That's all.

And yes, Cloud did not take the full volume of the full sized blast, just the full diamater of it.
But that's like saying you don't get the whole nuke when the bomb is dropped, just a fraction.
Plus, a fraction of a Megaton bomb, if it was such, is still a city killer.

I've asked multiple people and everyone agree around low-yield nuke level.

And if he wasn't hit by the full force of it then he didn't tank the full force of it. Now you're the one arguign semnatic.s. The original argument was if Cloud could take a citybuster as in an attack that reduced an entire city to a crater.
He didn't; he took a fraction of that blast that we haven't even absolutely confirmed capable of destroying a city.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Him flying head first into the attack isn't him taking the full force of it? Really?

You're being pedantic and ridiculous. He tanked it by enduring the entire blast. He went straight through the damn thing.

If I ran into oncoming traffic and was able to not only get hit by a bus but continue to run through it ala Superman, that means I "tanked" the entire impact of the collision and went straight through it. I may not have gone through the entire volume of the bus but I still endured the impact of said force and overpowered.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Even if he's 'only taking a portion' of the energy, the man is taking a number of blockbuster scale bombs of not inconsiderable tonnage head on in a continuous stream.

Also, who the hell said anything about 'cratering' the city? Hiroshima didn't goddamn crater the city, but it's definitely citybust material.

 

[Dashell]

I've asked multiple people and everyone agree around low-yield nuke level.

Oh well SHIT guess we better all back down then. You've asked PEOPLE!

he took a fraction of that blast that we haven't even absolutely confirmed capable of destroying a city.

Why can't you just accept that it would have caused a hell of a lot of damage?

 

[Deus]

Oh well SHIT guess we better all back down then. You've asked PEOPLE!

Yes, people. People with facts on their side.

Why can't you just accept that it would have caused a hell of a lot of damage?

I already have. That was never the argument at all.

Even if he's 'only taking a portion' of the energy, the man is taking a number of blockbuster scale bombs of not inconsiderable tonnage head on in a continuous stream.

That's fine.

Also, who the hell said anything about 'cratering' the city? Hiroshima didn't goddamn crater the city, but it's definitely citybust material.

Fair enough. That was my bad.
So the argument is really settled then.


Anyway, it's been real guys. I have enjoyed this thread and maybe I'll come back but right now I'm gonna be taking a break.

So maybe see you all later.

 

[OWA-2]

Another double-account, Nikkolas? God, when will you give up?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Another double-account, Nikkolas? God, when will you give up?

....Holy shit, are you serious?

ROFL what makes you say that?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Regarding the citybuster debate: Great debate! That was really interesting to read!

I think it's a definite that it was a citybuster myself. It may not carve out the landscape like if a Saiyan blew it up, but it would still wipe out the place -- and even 75% of turning this into this (see also this) definitely qualifies.

And if he wasn't hit by the full force of it then he didn't tank the full force of it.

Since he did manage to disperse it, though, I'd still count it.


Back to you, Mako:

Sephiroth did impale him twice, while also cutting him to pieces. So it's not like he did the same thing. He knew more force and effort was required. But honestly. Cloud is still human. With human insides. If you impale someone in the chest you're gonna hit something vital. There's the heart, lungs, spine, aorta. All of that. You get impaled through the chest and you've only got a few seconds before dying.

Sure enough. But it's what they do with those few seconds that's important in this situation.

Given what Cloud did with them the previous time Seph had him in that position, this was absolute buffoonery. Seph was so full of himself at that point that I don't think what he was doing could be described as anything less than playing around instead of taking the kill shot.

As for Aerith, it was more in the mid-section, and anyways, she didn't linger very long either. She died right on the spot. Her eyes widened and then she was gone.

Right on the spot, yes, but not instantly. She lasted 20 full seconds, dude.

Give Cloud 20 whole seconds to live and he's going to fuck your shit up.

The difference is pretty negligible, man. Cloud's a human. Not a zombie! It's not like a head shot is the only way to kill him.

It's not about effective ways to kill him. It's about what kills him without giving him a chance to go Gohan on your ass -- because he's going to do it. It's what he does.

...What? Are you really telling me Sephiroth had the whole moment rehearsed down to the timing of when he'd say what and when he'd do the killing?

I'm saying he had a plan to trounce Cloud, then gloat over him while "giving him despair" like he'd talked about -- making him know, in his final moment, that everything he cared about was going to be harmed.

Sephiroth is vindictive and a plotter, but that's just ridiculous.

Not in the slightest. He jerked the team along for the entirety of the first disc of the original game, and for a good bit of Disc 2 -- constantly passing up opportunities to kill them because he was only interested in making Cloud suffer for humiliating him.

Then Cloud does it again and Seph makes his hatred for Cloud the very core of his being -- the thought around which he focuses his existence and facilitates his resurrection.

This isn't ridiculous at all. Seph was there for revenge as much as he was there for any reason.

Sephiroth: Is this...the pain you felt before, Cloud?
Cloud: ......
Sephiroth: Cloud? CLOUD?! Don't you dare fucking die now! I haven't finished this!!! WAKE UP!!! *shakes him and then heals him*
Cloud: What....?
Sephiroth: As I was saying...is this...the pain you felt before, Cloud? STAY AWAKE!
Cloud: ....Oh jeez...

As hilarious as that is -- and I thank your post for it -- I honestly do see Sephiroth doing something like that. XD

Which is highly indicative of Sephiroth/Jenova being able to project illusions. You don't think Sephiroth/Jenova can make shadow clones, do you?

I think there's a good mixture of illusion and physical matter involved. JENOVA used illusion to get close to the Cetra, after all -- and then she facehugged them and they turned into monsters.

Sephiroth and Jenova can't phase through crap or split themselves in two ...

Now I know you've got to be pulling my leg.

But in the event that you're serious, Mako, the JENOVA-Birth, Life and Death battles would disagree with you, as would Hojo's JENOVA Reunion Theory and Sephiroth Copy experiment -- and likewise for the Ultimania Omega.

Perhaps that was intent had they not struggled and resisted his will. They were in considerable pain as well. I highly doubt that it was just a harmless attack.

He was being Sephiroth there once again. Notice how he pulls them in and throws them back more than once? He was playing around again. He was being his same dumbass self as always.

...You don't think he was just hidden in the room?

Unless he was hidden in the room while invisible and he and Elena's physical material is rather uniquely incapable of colliding -- given that she runs right over the spot where you're suggesting he takes off Ignotus Peverell's cloak only seconds later -- and his and Tseng's physical material was curiously incapable of colliding at the time -- as Tseng stands in the same spot until right before Seph appears, only to be very capable of physically interacting with him later in the scene -- I don't think this is possible.

I think it's more simple to just go with what we're shown on-screen: A translucent figure of Seph floating into the room and solidifying.

For those following this who want to see it without going to the trouble of pulling it up on YouTube themselves, here's a link to the exact minute and second you should start watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYuf3Cw25s#t=3m52s

We don't even see Sephiroth pass through anything. He just swoops down from above.

Nope. He definitely phases in from somewhere.

Still is a contradiction though. Nomura was referring to the group never using materia again and sure enough, one of them did.

As a group, they don't. Vince is hardly a representative of all the team members' typical behavior.

And Yuffie used materia as well. There are two materia orbs in Yuffie's shuriken when she hurls it at Rosso to save Vincent with her Flash spell.

We don't even know that Yuffie used actual magic there. I assumed it was just Yuffie being a ninja. Having materia on her weapon doesn't mean she's using it, after all.

It has been said that she still has a passion for materia because she likes to collect things.

Flash, by the way, is a very different spell.

Limit Break, Overdrive, Hyper Mode, you know what I mean. I'd say its indicative of a heightened state with his abilities and powers greater than his normal form. Just like in FFVII, Dissidia, etc. It's the literal "One Winged Angel" trope in action.

A heightened state, sure, I can agree with that. But a constant spiritual peak without getting exhausted? I can't see that.

Well that's cause he's casting a spell. He needs the energy to manifest and cast the spell. But his will alone is enough to subjugate and control the actual order of existence. His will. His desire and thought is enough to change the actual coarse of the planet and stop the ultimate white magic spell.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, Mako -- that's capital "G" kind of God attributes you're talking about there! We've never been given an indication that any of that is true.

All we've been told is that Sephiroth's will is second to none. Nothing ever said that this means his will operates independently of any technique he may use -- which would logically be bolstered by his powerful will.

It's like Cloud defeating Sephiroth in ACC. His willpower is what carried him through -- but without a body to be bolstered by that will, he couldn't have done anything.

For that matter, we've never even been told the mechanism through which Sephiroth held Holy in place. Not even that it was his will -- just that it was being obstructed or that something was getting in its way.

But it's certainly simple enough to conclude that his will was involved somehow because of what an impressive feat it is.

We know he has telekinesis. Why not simply assume that his will was manifesting through his abilities? Doesn't it make sense that he's using his telekinesis and it's effective against Holy because he has such a powerful will?

Reality doesn't bend to his whims. He still has to play by the same rules as everyone else.

He has to overcome diffusion into the Lifestream through the same quantifiable means that anyone else would. Obviously most are unable to achieve it -- Elmyra's husband is an obvious example. Most lack Sephiroth's powerful will, though.

Though Spira's various unsent defied dissolution with more success, weaker wills -- but still strong when compared to the average -- could achieve things that rarely happen on Gaia.

Fiend-like entities, for instance, are much more rare on Gaia. We only see them in the form of the Gi Tribe.

In any case, another instance where we see a powerful will do amazing things outside the norm is in Dirge of Cerberus, with Omega and Weiss. Weiss was dead, but as he was connected to Omega, which had a powerful will, it apparently reformed Weiss' body -- maybe out of spiritual energy alone; it's unclear -- and used him as a tool to fight Vincent.

Were quantifying Seph's will not possible nor relevant, then using adjectives describing it as powerful/quantifiable would be unnecessary. If he simply willed things to be, then he would have a will whose function was based not in being powerful but in somehow existing outside the rules.

Well he doesn't want any unnecessary interruptions, and Sephiroth probably had no idea how strong Holy would be.

Why would he have no idea? He should know precisely -- the same way he knows all about Meteor: from absorbing the knowledge of the Ancients!

And doing things requires effort yes, but it does not take much effort at all to have a desire. If you were Sephiroth, and your will was for a car not to move, then the car wouldn't move.

Seph desired for Cloud to stop hacking him to death in ACC. Cloud kept on hacking.

And I think we can both agree that Holy is more powerful than Cloud.

That would be the end of it. Holy didn't even hicup when Sephiroth was killed. Because his will, his desire, did not change. It wasn't until his very spirit was scattered to the winds that his will-hold over Holy finally let go.

His spirit/mind would be where the power to hold Holy would be coming from, though, wouldn't it?


Other:

I disagree that he went for the face. Seph wouldn't have killed him without making that "What do you cherish most?" line first.

I'd go so far as to say that he wouldn't have killed him before taking away everything he cherished.
Seriously, if you're out for revenge as much as Sephiroth, you're not just gonna kill your opponent immediately. You make them suffer.

I think it was enough for Seph to remind him of it before killing him. It would have had to be, in any case, as Cloud would have likely expired before too long with those wounds.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sure enough. But it's what they do with those few seconds that's important in this situation.

Given what Cloud did with them the previous time Seph had him in that position, this was absolute buffoonery. Seph was so full of himself at that point that I don't think what he was doing could be described as anything less than playing around instead of taking the kill shot.

In his mind, I'm sure he saw that as a kill shot, or at the very least the precursor to one, since he ended up impaling him in the chest again and also slamming him hard into the ground. I'm pretty sure that he thought that if that didn't kill Cloud, that would leave him so broken he'd be able to finish it off instantly. Which he tried to do.

We're evaluating this fight from hindsight, but look at it from Sephiroth's perspective and point of view. He was in complete control. He went after all of Cloud's vitals when he got the chance. He dominated him and had him right there after being able to withstand and counter the very same attack which killed him last time. For all intents and purposes, Sephiroth dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" to ensure he would seriously wound or kill Cloud while being able to make Cloud suffer. He wasn't just dicking around stupidly.

Right on the spot, yes, but not instantly. She lasted 20 full seconds, dude.

Give Cloud 20 whole seconds to live and he's going to fuck your shit up.

He did a helluva lot more to Cloud than he did to Aerith. Again, we're looking at this from hindsight. In the heat of combat, and in Sephiroth's position of complete control, how was he supposed to be aware of this? Unless he were paranoid?

Outside of the story and after the combat, we can nitpick and say what Sephiroth should've done, but look at it as it is in the moment. And Sephiroth was definitely serious about fucking Cloud up.

I'm saying he had a plan to trounce Cloud, then gloat over him while "giving him despair" like he'd talked about -- making him know, in his final moment, that everything he cared about was going to be harmed.

And he pretty much did all that by the time he had Cloud on the tip of his sword. So he really had no reason to play around then. By the time the new footage of ACC comes around, and Sephiroth has Cloud impaled. The gloves are off and Sephiroth is as serious as a heart attack.

Not in the slightest. He jerked the team along for the entirety of the first disc of the original game, and for a good bit of Disc 2 -- constantly passing up opportunities to kill them because he was only interested in making Cloud suffer for humiliating him.

Well he did intend to use them to get the Black Materia and all, so he wouldn't really want to kill them. His humiliation of Cloud also was apart of enacting his plan. He wasn't just acting like a 4chan troll

But its true, he did have numerous times he could've killed them.

Then Cloud does it again and Seph makes his hatred for Cloud the very core of his being -- the thought around which he focuses his existence and facilitates his resurrection.

This isn't ridiculous at all. Seph was there for revenge as much as he was there for any reason.

Yeah I agree, I'm not denying that at all.

As hilarious as that is -- and I thank your post for it -- I honestly do see Sephiroth doing something like that. XD

Really? I agree he wants Cloud to pay for what he did but...I don't think he's that crazy about it.

Now I know you've got to be pulling my leg.

But in the event that you're serious, Mako, the JENOVA-Birth, Life and Death battles would disagree with you, as would Hojo's JENOVA Reunion Theory and Sephiroth Copy experiment -- and likewise for the Ultimania Omega.

...I apologize. I didn't fully think that out. Jenova can split itself. I know that since thats what it does with those numerous Jenova monsters that it leaves behind.

So you really think Jenova in the guise of Sephiroth literally just...split itself into two pieces there while talking and flashing like that, and then just...smooshed itself back together? You think Tseng was facing down two Sephiroth's there?

I still think its illusion but I will take back the fact it'd be very unlikely it would be able to do that. I just always saw that as being illusion.

He was being Sephiroth there once again. Notice how he pulls them in and throws them back more than once? He was playing around again. He was being his same dumbass self as always.

I figured he was doing that to hurt them. Since you see waves of energy strike at them and they speak of how much it hurts. I suppose one could see that as playing around..but he's also attacking them too.

Unless he was hidden in the room while invisible and he and Elena's physical material is rather uniquely incapable of colliding -- given that she runs right over the spot where you're suggesting he takes off Ignotus Peverell's cloak only seconds later -- and his and Tseng's physical material was curiously incapable of colliding at the time -- as Tseng stands in the same spot until right before Seph appears, only to be very capable of physically interacting with him later in the scene -- I don't think this is possible.

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but..how do you know all this so definitively?

We're only seeing the room from one angle. We don't even see how high the ceiling goes, or how wide or narrow the room is. We only see the left wall and mural there. To me it looks like a long hallway with a very high ceiling. I imagine Sephiroth being high up in the ceiling while invisible and then swooping down in the cutscene and doing what we see.

So how is that not possible?

I think it's more simple to just go with what we're shown on-screen: A translucent figure of Seph floating into the room and solidifying.

For those following this who want to see it without going to the trouble of pulling it up on YouTube themselves, here's a link to the exact minute and second you should start watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYuf3Cw25s#t=3m52s

So going by that video, we see Sephiroth swoop in from the left behind Tseng. Is it not possible that he swooped in from above? Again, by the picture of the hall, the ceiling is very high up. Is it not possible he was hanging or floating up there and then just came down? Akin to how Dracula silently can stick to the ceiling before swooping in and attacking his prey?

We don't even know that Yuffie used actual magic there. I assumed it was just Yuffie being a ninja. Having materia on her weapon doesn't mean she's using it, after all.

If she has materia on her weapon, more than likely it's because its being used. In AC, she had no materia on her weapon. So why would she suddenly place materia in the weapon's slots if she had no intent on using?

And how else did she create that blinding flash from her shuriken? The orbs are even glowing.

It has been said that she still has a passion for materia because she likes to collect things.

Flash, by the way, is a very different spell.

Yeah, she was collecting it in AC but not putting it in her weapons. Why all of a sudden is it in her weapon now if she's not going to use it?

Bear in mind in AC, she even felt like offering materia to Cloud to use in his fight against Kadaj. So clearly they're not above using materia if the situation requires it.

And you know what I mean.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, Mako -- that's capital "G" kind of God attributes you're talking about there! We've never been given an indication that any of that is true.

All we've been told is that Sephiroth's will is second to none. Nothing ever said that this means his will operates independently of any technique he may use -- which would logically be bolstered by his powerful will.

It's like Cloud defeating Sephiroth in ACC. His willpower is what carried him through -- but without a body to be bolstered by that will, he couldn't have done anything.

For that matter, we've never even been told the mechanism through which Sephiroth held Holy in place. Not even that it was his will -- just that it was being obstructed or that something was getting in its way.

But it's certainly simple enough to conclude that his will was involved somehow because of what an impressive feat it is.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm sorry. I don't mean it operates independently of him. I'm saying that if he wills Holy to not move and continues to wish for that, unless its own will or power is stronger than his, it won't budge. The planet's own will and power, is not enough to supercede Sephiroth's. At least, if he's at full strength in terms of his spirit.

We know he has telekinesis. Why not simply assume that his will was manifesting through his abilities? Doesn't it make sense that he's using his telekinesis and it's effective against Holy because he has such a powerful will?

But Sephiroth's will has the ability to subvert and alter the planet doesn't it? From within the planet, his will would operate and hold back Holy. In the 10th Anniversary playback of FFVII, this is what it says:

“In the depths of the Great Cave, they [i.e. Cloud and the group] walked into the Planet’s Body in a line on foot, therefore pure radiance – Holy’s radiance, could be seen. However, that radiance was stopped by Sephiroth’s sheer force of will.”

Sephiroth's sheer force of will was stopping Holy.

Why would he have no idea? He should know precisely -- the same way he knows all about Meteor: from absorbing the knowledge of the Ancients!

Well he knew of it, but knowing it and actually experiencing its power is something else.

Seph desired for Cloud to stop hacking him to death in ACC. Cloud kept on hacking.

And I think we can both agree that Holy is more powerful than Cloud.

Well in the case of Holy, Holy was operating from within the Planet, and Sephiroth's will can subvert and control the planet. So it would be easier for Sephiroth to bend Holy to his will. Cloud however is a living individual.

His spirit/mind would be where the power to hold Holy would be coming from, though, wouldn't it?

Yes, exactly.

 

[Dashell]

Uh so.... maybe it's not my business but:

Deus
Full Member
Banned

Did we... get trolled here or something?

 

[Strangelove]

Deus
Ban reason: [Dupe accounts of banned users get banned]

 

[Makoeyes987]

Deus was Nikkolas.

 

[Dashell]

Well there goes the fun in this topic

Don't even really remember who Nikkolas was

 

[Makoeyes987]

You have the mental capacity of a goldfish.

How the hell do you forget this?

 

[Dashell]

Surely by now you realize I don't visit that area of the forum much, but now that you brought it up... oh he's THAT guy? Yeah... but uh dupe accounts WTF? At least mask your IP or something.

 

[Super Mario]

maybe he misses master debating to this forum.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In his mind, I'm sure he saw that as a kill shot, or at the very least the precursor to one ...

A precursor, sure. I just don't think he thought, "Ha, Cloud, you dead now!"

We're evaluating this fight from hindsight, but look at it from Sephiroth's perspective and point of view.

"No one can touch me, 'cause I'm so cool"?

He was in complete control. He went after all of Cloud's vitals...

Assuming he got a lung, we're still missing the heart, liver, pancreas, brain -- especially the brain -- kidneys and heart.

when he got the chance. He dominated him

For all intents and purposes, Sephiroth dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" to ensure he would seriously wound or kill Cloud while being able to make Cloud suffer. He wasn't just dicking around stupidly.

I bolded the key words that mean Seph was just dicking around stupidly.

His objective was not just killing the opponent that was trying to kill him, or even just defending himself from harm. That being the case, I'd call that stupidity and playing around/not taking the fight seriously/holding back.

He did a helluva lot more to Cloud than he did to Aerith.

Well, he doesn't despise Aerith with every JENOVA cell of his being. XD

Again, we're looking at this from hindsight. In the heat of combat, and in Sephiroth's position of complete control, how was he supposed to be aware of this? Unless he were paranoid?

By turning on the History Channel.

And he pretty much did all that by the time he had Cloud on the tip of his sword.

He hadn't yet given Cloud despair at that point, so I disagree.

Well he did intend to use them to get the Black Materia and all, so he wouldn't really want to kill them.

That's really just another example of him jerking them around. He could have gotten it himself with a piece of JENOVA, sent a Sephiroth Copy in, etc. Cloud even says that Seph has a lot of "flunkies" he could throw away to get it. He didn't need Cloud's team for that.

His humiliation of Cloud also was apart of enacting his plan. He wasn't just acting like a 4chan troll

It was completely irrelevant to his primary goal of absorbing the Lifestream, though, so I call troll.

But its true, he did have numerous times he could've killed them.

Thank you.

So you really think Jenova in the guise of Sephiroth literally just...split itself into two pieces there while talking and flashing like that, and then just...smooshed itself back together? You think Tseng was facing down two Sephiroth's there?

Oh, not at all. The flickery translucent form that came out was an illusion, no doubt. It never solidified or interacted with anything on a physical level.

I figured he was doing that to hurt them. Since you see waves of energy strike at them and they speak of how much it hurts. I suppose one could see that as playing around..but he's also attacking them too.

Well, Red speaks of the pain in the present-ongoing tense. He says his tail's about to tear off, not "One more of those and my tail's going to tear off."

Seph was hurting them just fine while holding them in place. He was trying to make them hurt, yes, but he wasn't "attacking them" in the sense that he's outright trying to kill them just yet.

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but..how do you know all this so definitively?

We're only seeing the room from one angle. We don't even see how high the ceiling goes, or how wide or narrow the room is. We only see the left wall and mural there. To me it looks like a long hallway with a very high ceiling. I imagine Sephiroth being high up in the ceiling while invisible and then swooping down in the cutscene and doing what we see.

So how is that not possible?

I thought you were saying that Seph had been sitting in that spot the whole time, just invisible.

As for your point about it not being clear how narrow the hallway is, this is true -- but I think it's implied that it's a rather narrow hallway. Assuming the altar at the end of the hall sits halfway between either wall, at least, and that the design of the room as seen while fighting the Red Dragon is any indication.

Which I would assume, of course.

I don't see this altar related to the Black Materia being tucked away in the corner of a vast room. That would be counterintuitive to the temple's purpose and the Black Materia's significance.

That would also be somewhat counterintuitive to the altar's symmetrical design, as well as its resemblance to the altar from the narrow corridor at the entrance to the temple.

So going by that video, we see Sephiroth swoop in from the left behind Tseng. Is it not possible that he swooped in from above?

The important bit of where he came in from to me is that he starts out close to the camera -- which is presumably where the wall is going by what I said right above -- and not that high above the ground

So, if that's what he did, then he would have probably phased in

If she has materia on her weapon, more than likely it's because its being used. In AC, she had no materia on her weapon. So why would she suddenly place materia in the weapon's slots if she had no intent on using?

And how else did she create that blinding flash from her shuriken? The orbs are even glowing.

...

Yeah, she was collecting it in AC but not putting it in her weapons. Why all of a sudden is it in her weapon now if she's not going to use it?

Bear in mind in AC, she even felt like offering materia to Cloud to use in his fight against Kadaj. So clearly they're not above using materia if the situation requires it.

Good points all.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm sorry. I don't mean it operates independently of him. I'm saying that if he wills Holy to not move and continues to wish for that, unless its own will or power is stronger than his, it won't budge. The planet's own will and power, is not enough to supercede Sephiroth's. At least, if he's at full strength in terms of his spirit.

That puts us back into the realm of quantifiable force, though, so it's not just Seph's desire that holds Holy in place -- it's the fact that he's strong enough to hold it there via some attribute of his.

But Sephiroth's will has the ability to subvert and alter the planet doesn't it? From within the planet, his will would operate and hold back Holy. In the 10th Anniversary playback of FFVII, this is what it says:

“In the depths of the Great Cave, they [i.e. Cloud and the group] walked into the Planet’s Body in a line on foot, therefore pure radiance – Holy’s radiance, could be seen. However, that radiance was stopped by Sephiroth’s sheer force of will.”

Sephiroth's sheer force of will was stopping Holy.

I hadn't seen that line until now. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Was that added to Yuffie's article after you guys initially posted it? I honestly don't remember seeing it there before now.

Anyway, the "sheer force" part of the sentence agrees with what I was arguing, really, while the fact that it identifies his will agrees with what you've been saying.

If there's force involved, then it's some kind of quantifiable exerted effort. As such, it's not the fact of/existence of/presence of Seph's will that's making Holy remain still -- it's that his will is strong enough to hold it still.

Honestly, I think you and I have been talking about the same thing. What I'm calling his telekinesis you're calling his will. I think it's the same thing now.

His will is just manifesting via telekinesis.

Well in the case of Holy, Holy was operating from within the Planet, and Sephiroth's will can subvert and control the planet. So it would be easier for Sephiroth to bend Holy to his will.

But like you said -- only because Holy and the planet aren't strong enough to overcome his will.

Cloud however is a living individual.

Who also happens to only be something like one-ten trillionth of the Lifestream.

 

[Super Mario]

moar like one - 9000th

 

[ForceStealer]

Tres mentioned flunkies. He wins the debate.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A precursor, sure. I just don't think he thought, "Ha, Cloud, you dead now!"

Not after the initial impalement. Okay. But considering after that he continues to attack Cloud viciously and inflicting severe slashes and stabs to his body's vital parts... I don't think Sephiroth would've been surprised if Cloud had died mid-air after the slash fest. Sephiroth was attacking Cloud's chest and then going for his face for a reason.

And really, with that impalement through the foot and knee..do you think Sephiroth was truly aiming for those spots? Honestly? I think that was purely luck that Cloud didn't get the sword through the face/neck and instead got it through his foot and knee, due to either his flailing or mid-air evasion. I highly doubt Sephiroth was purposefully going for just...his foot and the knee there in the sky. For one that's such an awkward target, let alone an awkward pair of targets to hit simultaneously. The entire trajectory of the sword doesn't seem like it was intentional at all. It seems more likely Sephiroth was aiming for the head or neck and Cloud's movements fowled up the attack.

Assuming he got a lung, we're still missing the heart, liver, pancreas, brain -- especially the brain -- kidneys and heart.

He had to have gotten a lung, given where the sword enters, and c'mon..that's a vital too. Actually looking at the picture now, he hits Cloud square in the chest. He may not have struck the heart but that had to have hit Cloud's aorta.

Then Cloud is once again struck in the chest in the air. Something vital was being aimed for and struck. The sheer loss of blood is proof enough and I won't be surprised at all if Cloud got nicked in the descending aorta.

I bolded the key words that mean Seph was just dicking around stupidly.

His objective was not just killing the opponent that was trying to kill him, or even just defending himself from harm. That being the case, I'd call that stupidity and playing around/not taking the fight seriously/holding back.

But those two concepts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Sephiroth landed a decisive blow on Cloud by impaling him square in the chest. He enjoyed that. He then continued to brutally massacre Cloud in the air, and enjoyed that too.

Well, he doesn't despise Aerith with every JENOVA cell of his being. XD

That's true.

He hadn't yet given Cloud despair at that point, so I disagree.

LOL, he did already offer Cloud despair during the fight. Afterwards he endures Cloud's strongest limit break and impales him, showing Cloud how powerless he was against his might. He then asks if this was the pain he felt before, and subsequently promises him he won't forget it this time.

I don't see how all of that is not inflicting despair. Cloud was in a truly hopeless position. Sephiroth not only showed his superiority to an exhausted Cloud by not getting touched by his ultimate limit break, he then subsequently inflicts an impalement to his chest, leaving him utterly helpless to counter attack or get free. Sephiroth gloats over this happening before, and promises Cloud he won't ever forget it. Cue the massacre in the sky, and yeah...that's Sephiroth's totally inflicting pain and despair on Cloud. Cloud could've died right there and Sephiroth would've done what he set out to do.

That's really just another example of him jerking them around. He could have gotten it himself with a piece of JENOVA, sent a Sephiroth Copy in, etc. Cloud even says that Seph has a lot of "flunkies" he could throw away to get it. He didn't need Cloud's team for that.

You're right. That's very true. But what about the fact that he wanted all the Sephiroth copies to return to him at the Northern Crater so that he could slaughter them and use their Jenova cells to aid in his regeneration? If he just threw all of them away for the Black Materia, he would've lost the precious cells that would help give him a new body.

Also, the Sephiroth Copies are weak. They were dropping like flies on their "pilgrimage" to the Northern Crater. Their bodies were too frail to survive the trek and monsters on the way. Cloud's group on the other hand were much stronger, so using them to get the Black Materia and give it to him would allow him to keep more of his copies for the sake of his revival.

Oh, not at all. The flickery translucent form that came out was an illusion, no doubt. It never solidified or interacted with anything on a physical level.

Okay, so we agree on that.

Well, Red speaks of the pain in the present-ongoing tense. He says his tail's about to tear off, not "One more of those and my tail's going to tear off."

Seph was hurting them just fine while holding them in place. He was trying to make them hurt, yes, but he wasn't "attacking them" in the sense that he's outright trying to kill them just yet.

So you think he could've just force-choked them all there or something instantly? Seems like even then they were resisting and it was that resistance that allowed them to break free. What could he have done then that would've caused them to somehow instantly die then and there?

I thought you were saying that Seph had been sitting in that spot the whole time, just invisible.

Oh no, that's not what I mean.

As for your point about it not being clear how narrow the hallway is, this is true -- but I think it's implied that it's a rather narrow hallway. Assuming the altar at the end of the hall sits halfway between either wall, at least, and that the design of the room as seen while fighting the Red Dragon is any indication.

Which I would assume, of course.

I don't see this altar related to the Black Materia being tucked away in the corner of a vast room. That would be counterintuitive to the temple's purpose and the Black Materia's significance.

That would also be somewhat counterintuitive to the altar's symmetrical design, as well as its resemblance to the altar from the narrow corridor at the entrance to the temple.

It wouldn't even need to be wide. I'm saying that in that narrow hall, Sephiroth/Jenova was above Tseng and Elena while they entered it and spoke. With him watching from above. When Tseng is alone, Sephiroth swoops in from the top to land behind Tseng quietly, and then the scene goes on as we see. Does that not make sense?

Let's say you're in a narrow hall way, but it has a large ceiling. Now as you walk into said hallway that's only illuminated by torch light, is it not possible for a supernatural figure that can make itself invisible to silently swoop down on you and surprise you? That's what I think happened with Tseng.

The important bit of where he came in from to me is that he starts out close to the camera -- which is presumably where the wall is going by what I said right above -- and not that high above the ground

So, if that's what he did, then he would have probably phased in

So that's how you took that close up of Sephiroth turning his head towards the viewer? I saw that was just as an artistic close up of Sephiroth as he was while listening to them speak. I didn't think that was indicative at all of his positioning. Just an ominous close up of Sephiroth to show that he was aware of what was going on.

The only time we physically see where he is in position of the room is when he swoops down from above.

I hadn't seen that line until now. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Was that added to Yuffie's article after you guys initially posted it? I honestly don't remember seeing it there before now.

No, it was always there. Even when that profile and translation was hosted on AC.net. You can go to the AC.net site's translations of the profile we did and see that same bit of translated text was included there as well.

We included it because of the whole debate of whether or not Vincent and Yuffie were present during the final confrontation with Sephiroth or not.

Anyway, the "sheer force" part of the sentence agrees with what I was arguing, really, while the fact that it identifies his will agrees with what you've been saying.

If there's force involved, then it's some kind of quantifiable exerted effort. As such, it's not the fact of/existence of/presence of Seph's will that's making Holy remain still -- it's that his will is strong enough to hold it still.

Honestly, I think you and I have been talking about the same thing. What I'm calling his telekinesis you're calling his will. I think it's the same thing now.

His will is just manifesting via telekinesis.

Ahh okay then. Fair enough. That does make sense.

At the very least we're coming to an understanding regarding a good bit of these things.