Did you like Cait Sith?

[Dashell]

One of my best friends on earth was an established writer. He wrote for many cartoons including Tiny Toons and Captain Planet. He told me I could establish my own universe with whatever laws I want... I go based on what he told me. He also told me writing was rewriting and you should keep rewriting again and again and again. That's what they did with AC... they rewrote it.

and be very careful about what you say about him because he passed away recently and I'm a bit sensitive of people disrespecting the dead.

 

[DLPB]

He told me I could establish my own universe with whatever laws I want... was he just full of it?

HE WAS RIGHT.

The point is that FF7 DID SET UP LAWS and then it INTRODUCED ELEMENTS THAT DID NOT WORK WITH THEM.

You cant make a story like VII with its laws and LOGIC and then have characters join your party for no reason. If cloud was established as a moron with some sort of brain damage, yes. Cait could join. But clearly, he is HUMAN and so is most of his party. They established 1 golden rule in VII. HUMANS EXIST THERE and the logic of our world IN PART applies to FF7's world.

Do you understand??

THEY SET UP LAWS BASED ON PLANET EARTH WITH INTERACTIONS BASED PURELY ON THE HUMAN RACE. THAT IS A LAW.

 

[Dashell]

HE WAS RIGHT.

Of course he was.

If cloud was established as a moron with some sort of brain damage, yes.

moron with some sort of brain damage, yes.

some sort of brain damage

you... didn't play the game at all did you?

 

[DLPB]

He and his party were not mentally retarded. You know exactly what I mean.

 

[Dashell]

HUMANS EXIST THERE and the logic of our world IN PART applies to FF7's world.

Yes, but things like Nanaki and giant robotic cat are normal there. So is magic and Mako and Jenova... That's the difference.

He and his party were not mentally retarded. You know exactly what I mean.

He was pretty damn fucked up dude.

 

[Alexia Ashford]

No, m'dear. It's all down to personal preference. What's bad fiction to you may be good fiction to others.
Example:
Twilight

I think those books are horribly written pieces of slop yet many many people seem to love them. 8D

Some people want more realism in their stories because it helps them relate better.
Some people want more whimsical nonsensical things in their stories because that evokes the feeling they're aiming for.

It depends on what you're trying to get from the story personally that defines if it's good or bad to you.


We can pretend that red dog experiments who live for freaking ever and giant creatures that are a slave to our will and can be summoned whenever are real?
But we can't get past a robot cat?
A man can be shot and killed but be brought back to life and kept in a coffin for years and years is believable?
A woman with jugs that huge can still stand up straight is believable?
A woman who sits all day talking to plants while still being sane is believable? But not the cat.

Just because something doesn't fit into your personal definition of what makes a good story doesn't make it a bad story to everyone else.

Just to you.


Also it's not based solely on humans. There are lots of other intelligent creatures that these humans interact with worldwide on a daily basis.

 

[DLPB]

No it aint down to preference I am afraid. There are established rules for good fiction thats why it isnt a coincidence that Original star wars became a massive hit.

Yes, but things like Nanaki and giant robotic cat are normal there. So is magic and Mako and Jenova... That's the difference.

Those things do not change why Cait is a bad character and poorly written. However if Jenova joined your party as that big blob at shinra building, Id have something to say.

Giant robotic cats dont seem to be normal at all. I didnt see another one, did u? Nanaki is last of his race and is flesh based. Cait is a robot cat on a stuffed toy, and all other reasons I gave why his story and character are lame even in this fiction.

 

[Dashell]

You know Cait sorta forced his way in right? Again did you play the game?...


ugh why am I even doing this?


FUCKING
stop editing your fucking post after I respond.

 

[Octo]

I honestly didn't mind him, and I didnt think him forcing himself into the party was any more absurd than Yuffie still being allowed back in after the Wutai sidequest. (Or everyone going snowboarding after being bereaved!)

I liked him less when they gave him the scottish accent though, seemed pretty obvious to me that he had a wisecracking american accent (something like Meowth in the Pokemon cartoon) to go along with his theme tune - everything about him just screamed 'casino' to me...meh.

It was badly executed though, they couldnt seem to make up their mind to what degree Cait was an AI...confusing.

Still....it could have been worse, remember all that stuff about 'Boxer the Goblin'? If that had happened I think that it would have sucked donkeyballs.

Also:

A woman with jugs that huge can still stand up straight is believable?

I can stand up just fine and dandy thankyau very much!

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

No because nearly every major story teller, would tell you the same thing. Because any decent author like Stephen King, would tell you flat out that you are wrong.

LOL stephen king who decided to have a GIANT FUCKING SPIDER that GREW MAGICALLY from the necklace of a lady with arthritis and then had the major villain (a demonic dwarf disguised as a human, btw) RIDE AWAY ON A TEN FOOT HORSE INTO THE GATES OF HELL for no other reason than the lulz?

lolstephenking'swriting

 

[Shademp]

- everything about him just screamed 'casino' to me...meh.

 

[Cloudskye]

Cait Sith really wasn't all that bad. The fact that he had a giant stuffed Mog was what won me over in the end; it's so cute! He also appeared in DoC, and that's really the only FFVII game I play now-a-days. In that game, he mimics everything (or just about) that Revee does, and it's interesting that even when he gets sucked into the darkness by Nero, another one of him appears not much later.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Peter Jackson altered a lot of LOTR. You should think before you use analogies.

His edits were mainly so the the pacing of the story that works for a book would work well on film, which involves some character retooling, but it's faithful to the source material. You don't see him rewriting the BOOKS, do you.

Also- he had rights to the Intellectual Property of LotR, which is why he was allowed to do so. It doesn't make the film LotR real, it was just telling it is a new media format as best as it worked for that medium.

Modifying the original game to remove Cait Sith and retranslate the story is totally different than Jackson making the films, but IS the same as me rewriting LotR and considering it real to Tolkien's universe. My analogy WAS clearly conceived, unlike your retort.

Many better projects have gotten a C&D from S-E, and your failure to consider the legality of what your doing somehow doesn't surprise me.



Back on topic- Cait Sith is just fine as a character.


X

 

[ForceStealer]

THEY SET UP LAWS BASED ON PLANET EARTH WITH INTERACTIONS BASED PURELY ON THE HUMAN RACE. THAT IS A LAW.

How the #&$% do you know this?

 

[Nursie]

I didn't mind him as a character, but he was a little 'bumbly' in battle. He was strong if trained up, but I never really liked using him. Of course, I was cursing at the screen when I realized he was an effing traitor, but then discovering he was being controlled by Reeve, who was already having issues with ShinRa, I didn't really mind him as much.

Cait wasn't a waste of space. He sacrificed himself to get the black materia at the Temple of the Ancients and continued on with the group even though his cover was eventually compromised. He was also a cheesy comic relief, what with his insane and stupid predictions. Square wouldn't have put Cait in the game with out a reason.

And, even if they did, why the hell not? He's a fun character. He's one of a kind, and just plain weird. And he's a robot. He's gonna be strange! Not everybody's robot designs are the same. The robots on planet earth can be a little weird, and they're all different by designer.

There's a reason why its called Final Fantasy.

 

[Xpelair]

Am I the only one that finds him alright in battle?

I never really thought he sucked. His hits were weak, but I found him as a type of Mage-Tank, loaded down with loads of status affecting Materia and put on the front row.

My only real complaint is his forced introduction as with the Gold Saucer. Mt Corel > Gold Saucer is too much of a jump for me. Maybe that's why I felt Cait Sith's introduction was rather weak.

I don't really see Cait as a robot controlled by Reeve either. I would've liked him to look at least a little Robotic. Oh and that Scottish accent of his. I quite like Scottish accents, but in my opinion it just makes Cait seem more flesh n' blood then what he really is. I don't look at Cait Sith and see Reeve. I'd rather like to see Cait Sith as flesh n' blood, sent to spy on Cloud and co, but I know that's not going to happen.

Oh and another thing! He doesn’t act anything like Reeve. He has his own personality that just makes him him.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I would like to mention that by actually making Cait Sith a human character, you turn the party into the biggest group of assholes, or else you make the Ancients idiots who could not actually kill people by wanting to trigger the apocalypse or you are drastically changing the script.

Scenario one is that he just dies and is replaced by another spy, but because there's no dialogue indicating that anyone cares that some guy just fucking died so they could get the black materia, the party apparently has no care about human life and therefore makes Cloud making a big deal about Aerith all the more confusing: why the fuck should he care if he didn't care some other dude killed himself so they could get the black materia?

Scenario two, the dude somehow lives means the Ancients really didn't give two shits if someone got the equivalent of a goddamn nuke, why Sephiroth never did this himself is just baffling. If they're not going to die, what's stopping anyone from just taking it?

Scenario three, the guy dies but dialogue is changed so that the players realize people cared that he died. This one alters the game the most and takes it closer and closer to fanfiction territory than anything else and while I can see why someone would do this, why someone would play this as opposed to the original is just baffling.

 

[Nursie]

Am I the only one that finds him alright in battle?

Ah, don't get me wrong, if channeled correctly, 'bumbly' can be powerful. But yes, even then he was weak physically unless trained up. I never really used him that much to discover his magic ability. But I'll keep that in mind.

Oh, and i just did a quick look-up on Cait's character. When he was at the Temple of the Ancients, didn't he say, "There's plenty of stuffed toys like my body around, but there's only one me!" I'm guessing there was a few more cats and/or giant moogles like him, so I guess it wasn't that uncommon.

As for Reeve...he's controlled by Reeve, but I agree with you, Xpelair. I think of them as two different people.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I always took it to be that Cait Sith had his own AI, but Reeve could assume direct control when he wanted. That "Inspire" bullshit makes things stupid, but I guess its the same result.

 

[Xpelair]

making Cait Sith a human character, you turn the party into the biggest group of assholes

This is partly why I’d like to see there being more robotic features on Cait Sith. Be it a bolt to the head or something (No pun intended). He doesn’t look anything like a toy robot of any sort - apart from him looking like a kids plush toy. I suppose, with the hidden stuff on the inside.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I never said it was. I said that it as a duality with our real world, mixed with fiction. Blood and stabbings, and death, and gravity are real things here on Earth. There are HUMANS in VII.

And blood and stabbings, and death, and gravity are in nearly every shounen anime. It's just that they only work like they do on earth when it is convenient for the plot. In Naruto it's normal for people to walk on walls and ceilings, make illusion copies of themselves, cause earthquakes, breath fire-balls, hold lightning, make tsunamis, and use wind as a weapon. In Bleach we have people walking on thin air, souls separating from bodies and the body remaining alive, and at least three different dimensions. In One Piece, fruits that give people superhuman abilities exist and the phone system consists of living snails. Just because a world has some things in common with the real world doesn't mean it's the real world.

And there are humans in nearly every shounen anime as well. Of course, there are also demons, youkai, reincarnations, vamipirs, souls, hollows, ect. So the presence of humans isn't any indication that it's the real world either.

When it really comes down to it, I find that the FFVII world is one of the more logical anime worlds. The key part of this is labeling FFVII as an amine game. If you make it a "real life" game, then it will fail each and every time.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

For more detail on what I was explaining earlier, now that I'm not posting from my mobile, here we go:

IF you intend to re-translate FFVII, and release a clearer version of the original Japanese text to correct mistakes made by the original translation team for download for those who posses a copy of the original FFVII for PC, there's a good chance it will be largely ignored by SE. This is because it's not violating copyright, Intellectual Property rights, because it's only an attempt to more clearly/correctly portray the original material that wasn't properly done by the original localization/translation team.

IF you want to release a version of FFVII with "Skoll" a character of your own creation, who replaces not just a character model, but modifies the content of the story, that means that you're modifying the IP that SquareEnix owns, and violating their copyright, and they'll issue you a C&D, because they're well within their rights to do so.

At the end of the day, however you feel about FFVII or the Compilation doesn't matter. SquareEnix and the developers and whoever they pass the copyrights to are the ones who own the world and its material, and they're free to modify, and elaborate on it however they choose. No one aside from the people who created FFVII can say that they did or didn't have other ideas for events in the world of FFVII at the time it was made.


As has been stated, and I'll pull the quote from the game.

I can protect the Planet too! I'm kinda embarrassed... There's plenty of stuffed toys like my body around, but there's only one me! Don't forget me even if another Cait Sith comes along. Good bye, then! I guess I'm off to save the Planet..."

Especially coming from somewhere like Gold Saucer, the giant Mog, and Cait Sith aren't uncommon objects in the universe of FFVII. While his bumbly attitude is somewhat juxtaposed with the general demeanor of the rest of the party, it doesn't implicitly make him a bad character, but it can make him generally more disliked, because he's different. That compounded with the fact that his limit breaks are unpredictable means that he's generally ignored / pushed off to the side. If Cait Sith had more reliable Limit Breaks, I'd be more inclined to use him in battle. Hell, if he had his own version of Yuffie's Limit break set, I wouldn't not use him.


Lastly, I still do wish that there was a real giant Mog, and that FFVII had an isolated Mog/Moogle population on some distant island, or in a cave/forest, or something (even if Cait Sith was still an animated puppet being controlled by Reeve riding around on him and spying on the party). While that's a fairly minor change that I could come up with a way to seamlessly integrate that idea into FFVII, if I did, despite the fact that it would leave his character totally intact, it wouldn't be Final Fantasy VII any more than any other fanfiction.


X

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah I always took it to be that Cait Sith had his own AI, but Reeve could assume direct control when he wanted. That "Inspire" bullshit makes things stupid, but I guess its the same result.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

oh jesus christ dac that is going to haunt my nightmares 8[

 

[DLPB]

IF you want to release a version of FFVII with "Skoll" a character of your own creation, who replaces not just a character model, but modifies the content of the story, that means that you're modifying the IP that SquareEnix owns, and violating their copyright, and they'll issue you a C&D, because they're well within their rights to do so.

It would just be released as a torrent. It is going ahead and that's that

I sense a great amount of intolerance here towards changing the script, and that seems to be the real reason for a lot of the arguing, but at the end of the day, it is no use moaning about if I am gonna do it or if I should do it, as I am doing.

I have said all I can on this, none of what I said about suspension of disbelief or the boundaries of fiction or why Cait does not work well in FF7 have sunk in... yet again. So it is pointless us all keep repeating the same arguments.

I will reply here again if I see something new which I haven't replied to. Otherwise, I am ending my days of going around in circles trying to explain a totally basic understanding of certain things.

What isn't in question here is that Cait has a very poor story, and that for me personally, and others, he broke the suspension of disbelief.