Disappointed in Mod Response

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
Correct me if I'm wrong since it has been a few months, but I don't remember any of this taking place in public on the actual forum proper. And when BOTH parties say, "Don't message me I never want to talk to you again," in a somewhat private setting (yes, even VM's) what are we supposed to think?

Idk, I guess I don't consider VMs private? Is that just me? And if something is reported to mods, I feel like it's no longer private (from the mods, that is). I'm not saying it should have been made public to the whole forum, I'm just saying that just because it was VM or "seemed to be resolved" shouldn't override the fact that it was reported and mods were asked to get involved.

But iirc, some laundry was aired a suicide thread. idk, I think that thread was destroyed. I don't know if any posts were reported from that thread since it was pretty short.



EDIT: erm, sorry Yop, but I agree with Tiff. No point in posting if you can't take the time to understand what's going on.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Judging from past discussions, I'd say we generally consider VMs to fall somewhere in the nebulous ground between totally private and totally public. Only the member who's the recipient of the VM gets a notification that they exist; the only way anyone else finds out that they exist is by checking the recipient's profile, as there's not a list of new visitor messages or anything like that. This basically means that they're not something the whole forum is likely to read, and by and large we consider them the concern of the two people who are conversing unless somebody reports one of them. But, at the same time, we recognise that other people can and will read them, and we generally don't take action if one of them is quoted on the forum (which we would if it were a private message; however, recently we mistakenly thought a visitor message was a private message, and I'm not sure what was done about this since). So yeah, "somewhat private" or "semi-private" or something along those lines is probably how I'd describe them too.

But anyway, the main thing was that each of them had said they never wanted to hear from the other again, so intervening by giving out infractions or whatever seemed like it would have just been kicking a hornets' nest. I'm pretty sure that's why staff didn't give her an infraction.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
It did. And she was told to stfu then too. Tbh, I'm surprised I wasn't infracted then because I straight out told her she was full of shit on the Forum. But I guess no one cared enough to remember. *shrugs*

I think it's rather unfair to assume that we all are going to remember every single detail of every single event that took place on the forum ever. It doesn't mean we don't care.

Not to mention the fact that every time I see this girl on the forum I have no idea who she is. Which actually brings something else to my attention that I will need to talk to her about.

Idk, I guess I don't consider VMs private? Is that just me? And if something is reported to mods, I feel like it's no longer private (from the mods, that is). I'm not saying it should have been made public to the whole forum, I'm just saying that just because it was VM or "seemed to be resolved" shouldn't override the fact that it was reported and mods were asked to get involved.

But iirc, some laundry was aired a suicide thread. idk, I think that thread was destroyed. I don't know if any posts were reported from that thread since it was pretty short.

I remember the suicide thread, now that you mention it. I remember everyone on the forum was trying to be very supportive of her at first. Is that where this whole thing started?
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
erm, sorry Yop, but I agree with Tiff. No point in posting if you can't take the time to understand what's going on.

It's a lot to digest. I for one did read the entire thread and I still don't know what's going on quite exactly (other than the obvious Tiff and this other girl/harassment). I'm earnestly trying and asking for a succinct version of this whole thing and man, if the Hundred Years War can be condensed into a paragraph, so can this.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Nah it's all good. You're handling it better than I probably would be if I were in your shoes.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
I remember the suicide thread, now that you mention it. I remember everyone on the forum was trying to be very supportive of her at first. Is that where this whole thing started?

It was the suicide thread after that that I was referring to.


It's a lot to digest. I for one did read the entire thread and I still don't know what's going on quite exactly (other than the obvious Tiff and this other girl/harassment). I'm earnestly trying and asking for a succinct version of this whole thing and man, if the Hundred Years War can be condensed into a paragraph, so can this.

yeah I know you read it. Yop admitted he didn't read the thread before he posted.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
I was gonna just PM this but I'll post this here for the others to read incase they are also in the dark about it lol.

If anyone remembers, months ago Tiff was making joke gifs called 'LTD is over' with crackships in them. Apparently... she found them offensive? And left Tiff messages on her profile (this is really where it began btw) saying how mean it was and how she thought Tiff was her friend, and she shouldn't have done that and that they were obviously mocking her. When... it was all just a joke. So then, when Tiff apologized and tried to explain it was a joke and wasn't meant to be offensive, she kinda blew up I guess? And started being really rude, bringing Tiff's insecurities about her looks and was being downright awful about it.

Near the end (as you saw in one of the caps I posted), Tiff said to leave her alone. For a while she did, (and btw after this happened Tiff defriended her and everything) and a week later she tried friending her again--Tiff declined, I believe.

Around this time, a little bit after that? She made another thread which most of you might remember (since a few mods did post in there) saying, I think, that she was leaving for the millionth time. In that very thread she insulted Kripey, was again rude to Tiff and had an attitude. Claiming (as per usual) that she asked Tiff to leave her alone first which was not the case. Trying to guilt trip Tiff and stuff.

Things settled down, until she would keep PMing her every so often. From things about how Tiff would post a gif and she'd be really rude towards her about it, and again, Tiff would ask her to PLEASE leave her alone. *I* even asked her (when I saw the VM comments) in a PM to please leave her alone because she was upsetting Tiff and I couldn't just stand by and watch yannow? She's my friend. She told me "she was sorry" and said she wouldn't again. Guess what happened? She continued and started again. I should've reported them, I guess, but I wasn't really thinking at the time.

Ummm I can't remember much else, aside from the fact again she PMed Tiff a few weeks ago? saying that a TLS secret was from her about Tiff when again before that Tiff had asked her not to message her anymore. She did anyway.

And I guess here we are now. I hope this helps? Tiff, Kripey, if I got anything mixed up or wrong somewhere, feel free to correct me.

Thanks, perfect.

So why don't we just ban this person? Harassment is a pretty big deal.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I was gonna just PM this but I'll post this here for the others to read incase they are also in the dark about it lol.

If anyone remembers, months ago Tiff was making joke gifs called 'LTD is over' with crackships in them. Apparently... she found them offensive? And left Tiff messages on her profile (this is really where it began btw) saying how mean it was and how she thought Tiff was her friend, and she shouldn't have done that and that they were obviously mocking her. When... it was all just a joke. So then, when Tiff apologized and tried to explain it was a joke and wasn't meant to be offensive, she kinda blew up I guess? And started being really rude, bringing Tiff's insecurities about her looks and was being downright awful about it.

Near the end (as you saw in one of the caps I posted), Tiff said to leave her alone. For a while she did, (and btw after this happened Tiff defriended her and everything) and a week later she tried friending her again--Tiff declined, I believe.

Around this time, a little bit after that? She made another thread which most of you might remember (since a few mods did post in there) saying, I think, that she was leaving for the millionth time. In that very thread she insulted Kripey, was again rude to Tiff and had an attitude. Claiming (as per usual) that she asked Tiff to leave her alone first which was not the case. Trying to guilt trip Tiff and stuff.

Things settled down, until she would keep PMing her every so often. From things about how Tiff would post a gif and she'd be really rude towards her about it, and again, Tiff would ask her to PLEASE leave her alone. *I* even asked her (when I saw the VM comments) in a PM to please leave her alone because she was upsetting Tiff and I couldn't just stand by and watch yannow? She's my friend. She told me "she was sorry" and said she wouldn't again. Guess what happened? She continued and started again. I should've reported them, I guess, but I wasn't really thinking at the time.

Ummm I can't remember much else, aside from the fact again she PMed Tiff a few weeks ago? saying that a TLS secret was from her about Tiff when again before that Tiff had asked her not to message her anymore. She did anyway.

And I guess here we are now. I hope this helps? Tiff, Kripey, if I got anything mixed up or wrong somewhere, feel free to correct me.

OH WAIT

The dots have all connected in my head now...

I am remembering now. I had totally forgotten about most of this.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
i swear to gods, can't we just nuke the fucking ltd from orbit and be done with it
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Wow, there is a lot that's gone on in this thread already. Some good, some bad, some that has me grinding my friggin' teeth to keep from snarling at people who couldn't hear me anyway.

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with having public scrutiny of member warnings in the first place, and was pretty sorely tempted just to close the thread and slum it,

If you're so concerned about avoiding drama and stirring people up, this is a terrible choice of words dude. Just throwing that out there to start.

since if people have concerns with the way things have been handled they have other ways to contact the staff,

Methods that I understand were used every single time the issues with Yoshi or whatever she calls herself these days reared their ugly heads. Methods that got nothing of any substance done, up until recently. Its just like the thing with Ryu, it took far too long for anything to be done and someone is calling the mods out on it.

but I decided to take a less severe action instead.

Well, I'm glad I coughed up some cash to support this place. I did it because I love TLS and felt like it'd be decent of me to chip in a little for the forum that gives me a good time pretty much whenever I need it. The place where I met pretty much all of my friends. But now? Now I'm just thinking that hey, if I hadn't done that I wouldn't even know this thread was here. I wouldn't be able to voice agreement with Kripey and those of like mind that hey, it sucks that the mods have forgotten all the stuff they said back when the Ryu/Bex issue hit the fan. And I damn sure agree.

Now, like Tres I can't multi-quote the entire thread, but a few things I want to say specifically:

Tenny: No one expects you to remember each and every detail of each and every issue that ever comes up, certainly. I'd call bullshit on anyone who asked such a ridiculous feat of anyone. I am gonna say that if anything had been done about the specific problem that brought these mod issues up again back when that problem was new, it might have stuck in someone's memory just a little. As for it being a supposedly "private matter between two members," it seems to me that this term falls far short of the mark. VM's may be "semi-private" or whatevs, but "semi-private" is also "semi-public" by default. It also was not between two members alone, as you well know since you spoke directly to me about my own involvement some months ago. Tiff isn't the only one who reported the situation wanting action taken. No action was, not at the time. Tiff, myself and others who care about Tiff did what we could to resolve it and we shouldn't have had to go to any such lengths.

Tres and Mog: On that matter, no one should expect you to know all the particulars when you've got serious real life business to attend to. Being deployed at sea, for instance, or getting married. I don't blame you guys for any confusion on anything, you had some highly important things to deal with and playing catch-up sucks. And of course if you're not actually here then you can't do anything about it either.

Aaron: First off, we were told ages ago now that there would be more visibility and transparency with the mod activities. Everyone would get a response letting them know what was decided if they reported something. Calling the mods out on their failure to do that is something that needs to be visible and transparent and should be public. You say you'd be fine with that part of the discussion being visible, but not the bit describing the situation that kicked of said discussion. And that to prevent "kicking a hornet's nest" with What's-Her-Name, yes? So lemme ask you something: If she were to drop some $$$ in the metaphorical donation box and then find this thread in the donator's domain... how you gonna keep her from blowing up then? It shouldn't matter, dude. If you give someone rope and they hang themselves with it, then that's their choice. I know you, of all people, are not advocating denying someone their right to make their choice and reap the consequences. Right?

And I have many many more thoughts, but Aaron's definitely right about one thing. It IS really late and I shoulda been in bed hours ago. I'll have to try again later.
 

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
Just my two cents: should we open a disciplinary section, for issues like this that pop up? It seems that every time someone has a problem with something we tend to get caught up in what debate goes where and what-not.
So maybe even if it could be managed so that only the people directly involved speak their piece first, so a fair say is had in someplace reasonably formal and serious, which also looks more neutral when it looks official.

/streamofconsciousness
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I like Satsu's idea. Might be a good place to host those staff reviews we talked about too, assuming they're still gonna be a regular thing.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
@GLD: Fair points, fair points.

Would you be able to remind me what it is that I said to you back then? I know that I have PM'ed you about stuff before, but I'm afraid that I honestly can't remember the specifics. :sadpanda:

@Satsu: That is not a bad idea. Aaron mentioned it earlier in the thread but it seemed more temporary. Something more permanent wouldn't be bad.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Aaron: First off, we were told ages ago now that there would be more visibility and transparency with the mod activities. Everyone would get a response letting them know what was decided if they reported something. Calling the mods out on their failure to do that is something that needs to be visible and transparent and should be public.
As I said repeatedly, we really fucked up not doing this. I've made it plain we fucked up. I'm not really sure what else you expect me to say to this.

You say you'd be fine with that part of the discussion being visible, but not the bit describing the situation that kicked of said discussion. And that to prevent "kicking a hornet's nest" with What's-Her-Name, yes? So lemme ask you something: If she were to drop some $$$ in the metaphorical donation box and then find this thread in the donator's domain... how you gonna keep her from blowing up then?
Then I probably would have slummed it for a few days and opened a thread about staff's problems communicating with members in its stead. Or made a section she didn't have access to. I don't know. It's not a problem I had to face so I didn't really think about it.

It shouldn't matter, dude. If you give someone rope and they hang themselves with it, then that's their choice. I know you, of all people, are not advocating denying someone their right to make their choice and reap the consequences. Right?
Just as the internet is not the international system, a forum is not a government. While I advocate for almost entirely unregulated speech in real life, I do not think having almost completely unregulated speech on a message board is constructive to that message board's health. I have been on too many message boards that completely fell apart because too many people were dicks to one another and nothing was ever done about it. That's why I'm perfectly in favour of giving people warnings, infractions, or bans over content on a message board that I would not be even remotely in favour of punshing in real life. People have no choice where they're born, and most of them have no choice or, at best, very little choice where they live. But everyone comes to a message board by choice (unless they're obsessive-compulsive or something, I guess, or if you don't believe in choice even as a rhetorical construct). And if the experience is unenjoyable for them more often than it is enjoyable, more often than not they will simply stop coming to it. I have experience on both sides of this - I've quit going to message boards that became too much of a chore to bother with, and I've seen people quit going to message boards that I've run or staffed at because the drama got out of hand or the forum was too hostile to them or any of a dozen other things.

Obviously, that means the job of a message board staff is to see to it that it is as enjoyable for as many members as possible. And having to give out shitloads of infractions to everyone involved in a spat of drama is not even remotely enjoyable for anyone involved. This means that if it's necessary to move some content to an isolated portion of the board until a storm of drama dies down, I think it's a sacrifice that is far preferable to seeing that drama worsen and having to ban a bunch of people, which is what I'm afraid would happen if this shit were public. However, it looks like I'm the only one on staff who even feels that way anymore (edit: and Tres just said he was moving it back regardless of how I feel) so it's probably not even worth arguing about.

And really, you're acting like I was in favour of hiding everything in this thread from public view forever. I never said anything like that. I've made it plain that I don't even think this should be hidden forever. Just until everyone cools off. Because it's more than readily apparent that people are not cooled off right now.
 

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
It's just that while I think it was kinda silly to move this thread to the Donator's Section, I can see Aaron's concerns about this whole thing being taken rather badly.

If there's a section where mods open up official complaints and reports for public viewing, people can be made aware of the problem without seeing it as some personal attack by the community, as silly as it sounds.
Also, it makes the mods look like they're doing things about things. :awesome:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Just want to say real quick, Aaron, that I did consider your point of view on the placement of the thread. I understand where you're coming from, and I don't think what you're saying is entirely without merit. I just think the health of the community will be better served on this -- and most -- occasions by putting stuff out there in the open and letting people hang themselves with the rope they're given if they make that choice for themselves. Everyone here is fully aware of the consequences should they not be cooled off when they post when and if Kobato (or anyone else with a strong opinion about any of this) posts.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
^What Tres just said is how i feel. Your intentions were very honorable, Aaron, however, people will chose how they see fit and we will deal accordingly.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Since I've paid $$$ and have access to this thread, I just wanted to comment on this thread being here.

This thread has nothing to do with being a Donator. It should be public, or public/closed.

Hopefully constructive criticism ahead:

Before moving the thread, Aaron, you could have checked with more than just one or two mods; at least one of the guys you spoke to (Pixel) had no idea what was going on and probably wasn't your best second opinion.

Re: the above: Aaron, I know you only want to help and take action to resolve the issue, and that's great. But your responses in this thread are like walls of text, most of it being your own subjective opinions, referring to unexplained terms ("blowing up") and don't reflect the moderator staff as a team. If you look at Road's post, he's saying many things with very few words, he keeps it short and fairly objective. If people responds, he doesn't necessarily respond just because he has something to say. That helps things staying somewhat neutral and not turning into a "member vs mod" dialogue.

We as a community agreed after the last incident to be more open; and fair enough, Belle could have written "referring to infractions on dates x, y and z, I believe the mods should take matter on the last incident reported two days ago, please follow procedure and take action" instead of referring in detail to the case in particular, but I believe she did this because she wanted to explain why it was important that someone take action.

That being said, I think a lot of us thought of this as purely teenage bitching and not as actual harassment. But apparently we have a member on board that isn't capable of saying "okay whatever" but has to keep bugging one of our members instead. Do the infractions and ban if necessary.

Yop, you're a tech admin, you need to act like the boss and only step in when it's utterly urgent, and then you should have your minions do a summary for you so you know what the case is about. Jumping in writing two sentences of derp does not give off the impression that you care :lol:

Also, Tiff, kudos for your posts in this thread. Whether this started out as a disagreement from both sides between you two or not, it seems you've done everything you can now to just let it go. That's the mature thing to do.

Whereas, to the member in question: I saw the thread over at that other forum, and not to bring outside TLS stuff into TLS, but: Seeking sympathy from others by saying your are bullied when clearly this is a disagreement at the most (meaning you did your part in this, at least, you know that), will just not get you anywhere in life.

If you believe a post or an image is about you, stuff it in the "on hold" drawer and make sure it's really about you before taking it further. Jamiroquai said Paranoia will destroy ya and that's certainly true.

I know it's hard being young, I do. But at some point you got to learn to have the confidence to take a deep breath, step away from the computer and go do something else instead. Or, go to a different online community or read Reddit or whatever. There is a point in everyones life where we send SMS's or PM's or emails or whatever to someone we believe owes us a reply. That does not mean they owe you a reply.

Nobody here is ganging up on you. You brought this on yourself through your actions, and now you have to take responsibility for them.

Okay I see the thread has been moved now :)

PS the minion thing is a joke. I don't believe all the mods are Yop's bitches. Unless you want to be
 

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
Wait, I have to pay to comment on a public issue in a public forum...eh, okay.

All of this sounds fucked up. Just ban the freak and be done with it.
 

Cookie Monster

NOM NOM NOM
Just throwing this out there, this is a direct quote from Celes' report:

From the looks of it, Celes was going through some problems and Lady Selphie kept asking her about her business. Given their history, Celes politely declined to speak with Selphie about it. And, Selphie went batshit as usual. Looking at that post it seems they'll be ignoring each other from now on. So, I see no reason to get involved. Suppose I'll PM Celes about this then, aye?

I was simply waiting for everyone to agree with me before I contacted Celes. :monster: You were going to be contacted about your report eventually. I think the real issue here is that action was not taken swiftly enough. And, we probably should have told you we were looking into the matter. For that I apologize. :monster: I've actually been reminding staff members to contact members when reports are made.

EDIT: Also, Celes, I did PM you telling you she received an infraction just before this thread was made. You did not tell me you felt a heavier punishment should have been dealt.
 
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Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
I don't know what's going on, but I do understand issues of stalking (even if online) and harassment.

First off, it may be worth it to make a police report. I did this when I was having a tough time with at least one person back in '01 or so. Granted, all that really came out of it was the man telling me that I should consider getting off that website...

Second of all, if she's truly mentally unstable... perhaps blocking her would be the kindest and most effective thing to do. Being someone who has issues herself, I can see how being banned may allow her time to deal with her feelings instead of having a place to point fingers, which from this thread it does sound like she's doing. No, I'm not trying to diagnose, either.

I would hate to see Celes (KarKat) go. To be honest, I don't think she is the one who should leave. As much as a feel for someone suffering, if she truly is, it's not fair to make Celes (KarKat) change when she is not the one who did anything.

I hope and pray everything will work out effectively and for the best for all involved.
 
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