Disappointed in Mod Response

[Aqua]

I'm glad this was moved back into public view otherwise I would not have been able to read all these posts (and read them all I did) and express my own concern about this.

I've come across some issues during this thread that I would appreciate if it gets answered. I'm not going to multi-quote everything because this is going to get long...

• On the issue of mod response to complaints

Is there not some kind of protocol that must be followed with complaints are reported to mods? When a complaint is sent, shouldn't the receiving mod immediately respond acknowledging the message? Something along the lines of

"Thanks for bringing this up. I've set up a discussion with the other mods with the information you have given me and we will be discussing it. We will report back to you when we reach a decision. If anything else crops up, we'd appreciate if you let us know as well."

If no decision is reached in the few days allotted, wouldn't an update also informing the complainant that the issue is still being discussed help ease any worries they might have about your response?
They have trusted you to help resolve a problem they feel they cannot handle themselves. I feel like it's only right to let them know that their trust is not ill-placed.

• Mods not knowing about the initial drama

One thing I want to stress is I do not blame anyone for not being fully informed of the situation due to real life issues that are always paramount to anything online.

However, I do wonder if the previous drama was not recorded in the mod's private forum for all moderators to read over and check when they have the time, including the consensus from the team and the exact statements to be sent to the two people involved with the drama. That way everyone can be fully informed and know what to expect and/or do should this drama rear its ugly head again (which it did).

This shouldn't have to be restated but: all mods must be aware of any previous discussions about drama between two or more people on the forum and any decision reached must be clearly explained to all members. That means if one or two mods decided that the last time this all erupted and they decided that "next time" someone will get banned for it if they cause trouble again, then all mods must be aware of this decision so that no other mod will decide that there will be another "next time".

This brings me to my next point:

• The issue of just "forgetting" about previous mod promises

I don't know what went on during this Ryu issue (it must've happened before I joined) but it is clear what the effects produced: the mod team promised to be more open and this never happened and if it did, it was few and far in-between.

From what I've read the only excuse is "we forgot about it because we didn't have to give out any infractions or bans for a few weeks afterward and forgot"

I am sorry, but this is a pathetic excuse. Things tend to calm down after a drama, but that does not mean you should simply "forget" about the promises you have made to the members of this forum because you didn't have to throw out infractions or bans right afterward. Your promise to the members should have been posted in the mod's private forum (if you have one, which you should...) and stickied as a reminder for all for all time. If the mod team cannot be trusted to keep their promises, the forum itself does not have long to live.

• Moving this to the donator's forum to hide it from a certain member

Without understand the situation or reading through this thread, I can certainly understand why you would want to hide it from the person in question.

However, the first post made it very clear: it was not specifically about Mystic Namechanger, it was about the mod's response. She was just a catalyst for the post itself. She was not the initial focus. By moving this thread to the donator's forum you made it about her (and you can see the discussion move from about the mod response to her just as the suggestion was made). Which is why I am glad it has been moved back to its original place.

If she pops in here and causes a mess, that's on her head. If she can't be mature enough to respond calmly to the allegations against her without creating a post filled with drama and lies, she is just proving what everyone is saying about her to be true. Misty/Yobato/Yoshi/Mystic Namechanger (which I prefer to call you tbh), if you are reading this, close the forum and just walk away for two hours. Clear your head and go do something else until you have calmed down. Making posts in the heat of the moment will only hurt you more in the long run. Surely you must understand this.

And I'm just going to leave it at that for now. :x

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Tbh I thought shit would have gotten a hell of a sight better after the last palava.The whole open dialogue thing with staff was a novel concept but in reality it's Linda fallen on its arse.
There are a lot of comments in this thread from staff members that are actually quite shocking to read. The whole mod appraisal thing should be re-examined and members concerns over mods should be looked at more in depth (for example Aaron: how many times have you been called out over your attitude in replies only to reply with "I'll try harder next time" I'm sorry but next time has come around and sweet fuckall has changed.)


Kripeys concerns have been discussed for over 5 pages and still I don't see much of a resolution.


Celes being openly stalked is a pretty serious thing and it shouldn't have escalated to the level it is now for this to be addressed. If that's not a wake up call for staff then I don't know what is.

Btw sorry for any spelling mistakes, typing this from my phone.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I also found three previous reports regarding this situation from last year. Unless the mods simply didn't share any info on their conversations with the parties involved, I don't see where promises were made that we would take action. So, all of this "next time" business is confusing the fuck out of me. This sort of thing is going to cause problems and needs to be addressed immediately.

We're also going to have to re-evaluate protocol regarding reports. After the shit with Ryu went down, we simply made it our prerogative to contact members after a report had been dealt with. I suppose we should now consider contacting members as soon as a report is received. If a decision takes longer than a day or two, we should contact the member giving them an update on the situation. And, as usual contact them once a decision has been made.

Now for this business with Kobato, I think staff's ignorance on the matter has really been the problem. I don't think we fully understood or were aware of the history between you two. Other than the reports I found from September/October of last year, this pretty much went under the radar. However, with the plethora of other reports in the staff section, I don't have the time to go through each one looking for relating reports. But, I don't remember there being much more if any.

Now, solutions. Banning the girl is still up for discussion I suppose. I don't know what was promised in the past, so I can only act on what I'm aware of. Taking that into account, I think how Force and I handled her was pretty appropriate. She gets an infraction, and if she acts up again, she gets banned. Pretty simple, imho. Aye/nay?

Also it's funny how there's another call for staff reviews. I planned for the next one to occur in three months, basically the end of March. Perfect timing with this clusterfuck.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Also, I'm not sure how I came across to you folks last night. Dunno, if I was being a dick or not. It was hella late and I was mutating into a zombie. So, if I was an arse, I apologize.

 

[Joker]

I have three things to say here.

1. Sweet jesus fuck, why did it take sixty-one posts for someone to say the following (which I myself was going to post as I waded through this thread)?

Harassment is a pretty big deal.

The fact that she has no prior infractions or disciplinary actions on file doesn't mean ANYTHING. It has been made abundantly clear that her attentions are completely unwanted and by Tiff; it has been made abundantly clear that she persists in this behavior; and it has been made abundantly clear that 'leave me alone' DOES NOT WORK WITH HER. Those are the very definitions of harassment and stalking. Why has this even been something open for debate?


2. No one appears to be willing to address the elephant in the room. I'm well-known for being confrontational, because I don't believe in sugar-coating things. This gets me in a lot of trouble, but I don't particularly mind it, because it's the right thing to do. Let me preface this by saying that this is in no way an attack on anyone, or a judgment, or anything like that. This is simply my opinion, regardless of whether or not someone agrees with it. But, through watching public and moderator responses to the various incidents that have occurred with this particular member, I honestly believe that the reason (or, perhaps, part of the reason) that she has not been dealt with in the past is that staff worries that maybe this time, she will carry out her threat to commit suicide. She has stated numerous times that she suffers from depression and has suicidal tendencies; okay then. But after the third time this happened, the memberbase and staff continue to feed her rather Munchausen-like need for sympathetic attention. This, too, explains her actions on both tumbler and the other forum. But what it doesn't explain is why people feel the need to tiptoe around her on eggshells (e.g., previously in this thread, etc).

And if you're truly worried about the actions that she will take, why is it that several people within staff (and a few members) feel the need to slight her with vaguely passive-aggressive terms like Girl Who Changes Her Name and Aka Field, etc? It may not be blatant, and perhaps not even intentional, but it IS insulting.


3. The fact that this thread was made private due to a few people's concern of what might happen, as well as the lack of follow-through re: previous agreement to make things more transparent between staff and members, are highly concerning, and not only because the first contradicts the promises made in the second. I do not mind people who are informed of a situation making a judgment call for what they feel is best and acting on it, or even sticking to their guns to fight for it. What I do take exception to is people who are NOT informed deciding what is best for a situation. It is here that I again bring attention to Mog here; he asked for a synopsis before weighing in and then, when we failed to give him one (we meaning the members here), he continued to ask for it until he got it, and then weighed in. This is extremely commendable, because it is not the sort of shotgun reaction that I've been seeing.

It is also concerning that I have seen moderators reacting in a completely counterproductive manner in this thread when people have called into question certain things they've done, or expressed an opinion on their capacity as a moderator, actions taken, etc etc. In my opinion, this is a stark contrast to three short months ago, when we had staff evaluations and I, for one, asked if staff would mind replying to our opinions in a sort of feedback loop to help improve things. Not one member of staff did so. Perhaps it was still fresh, or they were working things out for themselves, or whatever. That's fine. But then to have this kind of reaction later when some of the same things were said seems unnecessary. As seems to be the theme here, these are issues that could and should have been solved and taken care of long ago.

I'd also like to recommend that, going forward, when drama erupts on the forum, "it's 5am" is not a valid excuse for poor behavior or choices or just plain not reading posts or making sense. If that's the case, do what you're advising everyone else to do and step away from the computer. Go to sleep, and come back when you're properly coherent again. The thread and forum will still be here. This is addressed to both the members AND the staff, because I've seen it all over the place in this thread

And in closing, while there was something else I had to say here as part of point three (staff behavior), I've forgotten what it was, so I'd just like to say that I also agree with absolutely every word of Shiala's post, minus Mystic Namechanger (because that goes back to number 2).

Road posted while I was typing this edit: first off, kudos for the second post. As for the first...three past incidents seems like plenty of history to go off of for me XD

Also I remembered that I wanted to say that it seems really...well, lazy, to just "assume" that the situation has been taken care of between members or settled down or whatever. If things seem to have cooled off or whatever, without any action of the staff, then one would think that the most appropriate thing to do would be to send a PM to the members involved to assess what actually happened there to see if it has been dealt with or not. Otherwise, it just looks like nothing being done.

 

[Tifabelle]

Before moving the thread, Aaron, you could have checked with more than just one or two mods; at least one of the guys you spoke to (Pixel) had no idea what was going on and probably wasn't your best second opinion.

Just to point out, Pixel actually has a very good idea of what's going on.

Yop, you're a tech admin, you need to act like the boss and only step in when it's utterly urgent, and then you should have your minions do a summary for you so you know what the case is about. Jumping in writing two sentences of derp does not give off the impression that you care

Yop is also the owner of the board, and as such I really value his input. And in the past, Yop has shown to be objective and fair. That being said, it would be appreciated if he actually read the thread before giving said input.

From the looks of it, Celes was going through some problems and Lady Selphie kept asking her about her business. Given their history, Celes politely declined to speak with Selphie about it. And, Selphie went batshit as usual. Looking at that post it seems they'll be ignoring each other from now on. So, I see no reason to get involved. Suppose I'll PM Celes about this then, aye?

I was simply waiting for everyone to agree with me before I contacted Celes. You were going to be contacted about your report eventually. I think the real issue here is that action was not taken swiftly enough. And, we probably should have told you we were looking into the matter. For that I apologize. I've actually been reminding staff members to contact members when reports are made.

Well the other issue is that it was assumed the issue was resolved when in the past the issue is cyclical and keeps happening. Assuming that it's resolved simply by them agreeing to ignore each other (which has happened several times in the past) seems like an oversight when it keeps happening again and again and again.

First off, it may be worth it to make a police report. I did this when I was having a tough time with at least one person back in '01 or so.

I don't think it's that serious. She hasn't shown up at her door.
yet j/k!

I would hate to see Celes (KarKat) go. To be honest, I don't think she is the one who should leave. As much as a feel for someone suffering, if she truly is, it's not fair to make Celes (KarKat) change when she is not the one who did anything.

Tiff and I had both felt like a break was in order for both of us. It was quite frustrating to wake up to us all being infracted without so much as any kind of attempt by the mods to understand what happened. And after not hearing from staff regarding her being reported two days ago. If I hadn't been encouraged by someone else to voice my opinion here, you wouldn't have seen me for a while. (which is saying a lot considering how addicted I am to TLS )



And basically everything Shiala said.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm glad this was moved back into public view otherwise I would not have been able to read all these posts (and read them all I did) and express my own concern about this.

I've come across some issues during this thread that I would appreciate if it gets answered. I'm not going to multi-quote everything because this is going to get long...

• On the issue of mod response to complaints

Is there not some kind of protocol that must be followed with complaints are reported to mods? When a complaint is sent, shouldn't the receiving mod immediately respond acknowledging the message? Something along the lines of

The issue here is that rarely is a single moderator receiving the notification. Generally, a Super Mod will receive any report made on the forum, even if it is an issue that occurs in a specialized section.

If no decision is reached in the few days allotted, wouldn't an update also informing the complainant that the issue is still being discussed help ease any worries they might have about your response?

This is an excellent idea. Add it to the list of shit we should now be doing.

They have trusted you to help resolve a problem they feel they cannot handle themselves. I feel like it's only right to let them know that their trust is not ill-placed.

• Mods not knowing about the initial drama

One thing I want to stress is I do not blame anyone for not being fully informed of the situation due to real life issues that are always paramount to anything online.

However, I do wonder if the previous drama was not recorded in the mod's private forum for all moderators to read over and check when they have the time, including the consensus from the team and the exact statements to be sent to the two people involved with the drama. That way everyone can be fully informed and know what to expect and/or do should this drama rear its ugly head again (which it did).

This shouldn't have to be restated but: all mods must be aware of any previous discussions about drama between two or more people on the forum and any decision reached must be clearly explained to all members. That means if one or two mods decided that the last time this all erupted and they decided that "next time" someone will get banned for it if they cause trouble again, then all mods must be aware of this decision so that no other mod will decide that there will be another "next time".

As mentioned by CM, no such consensus had previously been reached. I don't doubt that Celes may have been told privately that 'Next time, bans will happen.' If she was, then yes, that said assurance was made should have been made part of the record.

We do have a 'list of trouble makers.' Yes, mods, I'm just spilling all our secrets no one cares about, but it is mostly reserved for people who we've determined need to be banned or have already been banned.
A similar post for our forthgoing edicts would also be a good idea. Hell, I'll go make that post immediately after finishing this one.

This brings me to my next point:

• The issue of just "forgetting" about previous mod promises

I don't know what went on during this Ryu issue (it must've happened before I joined) but it is clear what the effects produced: the mod team promised to be more open and this never happened and if it did, it was few and far in-between.

From what I've read the only excuse is "we forgot about it because we didn't have to give out any infractions or bans for a few weeks afterward and forgot"

I am sorry, but this is a pathetic excuse. Things tend to calm down after a drama, but that does not mean you should simply "forget" about the promises you have made to the members of this forum because you didn't have to throw out infractions or bans right afterward. Your promise to the members should have been posted in the mod's private forum (if you have one, which you should...) and stickied as a reminder for all for all time. If the mod team cannot be trusted to keep their promises, the forum itself does not have long to live.

Agreed, to a point. As Moderators- and as a forum- we are often too quick to forget certain things. As moderators, we should not allow this to happen.

• Moving this to the donator's forum to hide it from a certain member

Without understand the situation or reading through this thread, I can certainly understand why you would want to hide it from the person in question.

However, the first post made it very clear: it was not specifically about Mystic Namechanger, it was about the mod's response. She was just a catalyst for the post itself. She was not the initial focus. By moving this thread to the donator's forum you made it about her (and you can see the discussion move from about the mod response to her just as the suggestion was made). Which is why I am glad it has been moved back to its original place.

If she pops in here and causes a mess, that's on her head. If she can't be mature enough to respond calmly to the allegations against her without creating a post filled with drama and lies, she is just proving what everyone is saying about her to be true. Misty/Yobato/Yoshi/Mystic Namechanger (which I prefer to call you tbh), if you are reading this, close the forum and just walk away for two hours. Clear your head and go do something else until you have calmed down. Making posts in the heat of the moment will only hurt you more in the long run. Surely you must understand this.

And I'm just going to leave it at that for now. :x

Quoting this section, and changing it to address it to everyone, because it's not just her, and as much as we'd all like to think we only post when calm and rational, we definitely don't, and it more than anything has been the root cause of most of our biggest incidents of drama.

Oh, and a suggestion for the people who are worried their issues, especially reported post aren't being addressed-
Literally, start bugging us directly. Open up a dialogue. Because of the way the human mind works, we WILL take more note of being PMed than a single report.

 

[Joker]

I'd like to note there that I've been away from the internet for a solid 18-ish hours and was not the someone mentioned in Belle's post.

 

[Octo]

I really didn't want to get involved, really I didn't and I know that this will probably lose me a lot of the respect people have for me (if I had any ) but this whole thing does make me very uncomfortable.

And if you're truly worried about the actions that she will take, why is it that several people within staff (and a few members) feel the need to slight her with vaguely passive-aggressive terms like Girl Who Changes Her Name and Aka Field, etc? It may not be blatant, and perhaps not even intentional, but it IS insulting.

This, people have also been outright insulting in this thread and and though I understand this is an emotive issue it is not helping the situation at all and as a 'outsider' to all this it does look like ganging up is occuring. This is just going to add fuel to the fire.

I have nothing against Aeris but I totally understand if her actions have made people uncomfortable and I do think that it should be dealt with properly, as far as I am concerned any further unwanted contact on TLS should be met with a ban. I would apply this to any member who persitantly messages someone who does not want contact.

What happens elsewhere should be dealt with elsewhere, it is not the mods job to police the internet. If the situation escalates then the proper authorities should be contacted.

I want to make absolutely clear that I am not insensitive to stalking/harrasment and it has happened to me in real life, the one thing I do know is that responding or interacting with a stalker is validating their behaviour and giving them what they want. This includes talking about them in public.

I want to make clear that I am not saying that is what Aeris is doing but if that is what people believe, then that is the way to deal with it.

 

[Joker]

Admittedly, I do refer to her in private by a certain nickname I have given her, but that is mostly because she doesn't have a name that I know to refer to her by. Ex: Octo, Ryu, Tiff, Belle, Road, etc. I don't know her actual name, and I don't remember what her first username was ;.;

 

[Celes Chere]

Also, Celes, I did PM you telling you she received an infraction just before this thread was made. You did not tell me you felt a heavier punishment should have been dealt.

Because I didn't think you guys were going to do anything? You told me to report stuff, and I replied with "I did" and then you said you wanted other things like PMs, like the profile thing wasn't enough. So yeah


And no you were not a dick at least in my opinion, I feel you are trying to do the right thing and a lot of us are kinda frustrated right now.

"it's 5am" is not a valid excuse for poor behavior or choices

Yeah that really upset me. "Fine, I will move the thread back but it's 5am, forget it. Even though I will continue to post in the topic."

It's like... really did I just read that?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Also, I'm not sure how I came across to you folks last night. Dunno, if I was being a dick or not. It was hella late and I was mutating into a zombie. So, if I was an arse, I apologize.

I second this. I'm probably not much better now, but whatever.

I haven't read the whole thread yet. I may or may not respond further when I'm done.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yup yup. I normally step away from the forum when shit like this happens. But two people actually contacted me twice and asked me to intervene. Should've just waited anyway.

 

[Lumina]

Ok so, I'll just post my thoughts here about this whole situation. Please bare on the English horrors up ahead.
First of all let me tell you that the "Outside" drama I was talking about the Ruin Your Day thread wasn't referring to the Tiff-Yoshi thing. So when everyone assumed it was from this whole thing or whatever I felt infuriated. People write about what ruins their day to take that off their shoulders, not to receive criticism or whatever. Ok nothing personal now on to the issue.

As a constant witness of Tiff's whole situation with this girl, I know how hard it has been for her to just "ignore her". On a similar situation its impossible to ignore people when they reach you five times daily on TLS and outside places. When you don't then they just bitch about it everywhere. Yeah it can be ignored of course... But we have such a limit. There's a moment when we can ignore it anymore and we just start to actually believe it. It does not only hurts you physically, but also emotionally.

I for one tried to deal with her multiple times. I never reported her posts because honestly... I hate to do that and because I wasn't present when all of that happened.

I know that Tiff has told her plenty of times to leave her alone on TLS. I recall her making multiple posts answering in really rude ways to Tiff's post. She can ignore it yeah... but there's a limit to everything and honestly you can't ask her to "ignore" her when the girl has gone around everywhere on TLS harrasing her around.

As Tiff's friend I feel insulted by the way things have been handled. Maybe yeah, let's say we leave the outside drama out of the issue... but there are plenty of proof that this person have been contacting Tiff, trying to get at her when they both made an agreement (Which was on TLS if I remember correctly) of ignoring each other. As being Kripey's friend I feel angry that she was the one who got the warning. She left her alone when the girl asked to, yet she kept contacting her and yet she comes back and forth. Personally I tried to be as neutral as possible but I am human, I hate seeing all these shit get on my friends as if we are ganging up against her. I talked to her and told her that I was gonna keep talking to her, as long as she didn't talked badly about Tiff. I used to feel sad for her, but being part of a recent drama myself I understand her at all. You can't blame her or Kripey for exploding at whatever comments she does. It gets tiring to the moment you actually believe all the things she has said.

I'm sorry guys I honestly never had any complaints about Mod issues. I've always been calm and out of trouble. But I agree with Kripey. And I honestly hope this can be solved as soon as possible in the best way.

I love TLS, I really do. I haven't been on here for that long but its a place full of nice people. But stuff like this really makes me, like TIff, take a break.

 

[Ⓐaron]

As being Kripey's friend I feel angry that she was the one who got the warning.

I don't really have much to say in response to most of this, but she was not the only one who received an infraction recently. Four people got warnings or infractions. We don't usually discuss warnings or infractions publicly, but due to the circumstances it's probably not going to bother anyone at this point if I say in response to this that Kobato was one of those who received an infraction.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yeah, a few of you did insult the girl and blatantly violate certain rules. So, we just handed them out, fgj.

 

[Celes Chere]

Were they really insults though? Or just facts? ;P

but anyways I don't care about the infraction just as long as this could be put to an end please. ^^;

 

[Tifabelle]

I don't mind so much about my own infraction since I know I broke a rule (of c/p'ing the stuff from tumblr). Although tbh, it was my first offense? I've never been warned or infracted before. So I would think that should be a red flag that this was not my usual behavior.

But what annoyed me was that infractions were handed out with no attempt at understanding a situation. Like, here are your infractions, now stfu. I got a textbook line explaining my infraction and that was it.

 

[Joker]

...I'll eat infractions all day as long as it get this girl off of TLS.

The issues with her have gone on for far too long.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Were they really insults though? Or just facts? ;P

"Fuck you" is pretty insulting.

 

[Lumina]

I am sorry, but if she said "Fuck You" was because the girl had told her even worse things in the past. AND on TLS, because if we bring outside sites... I would never stop.

And no argument intended. Just in case.

 

[Joker]

I'd like to pose a question, if I might: if it's not okay to call her a crazy bitch, why is it okay for someone to tell username to fuck off and die?

The 'well it's username' reasoning is very weak here, because this girl has priors for much more serious behaviors than creating 9001 dupes and posting drunk all the time about how much he hates this place.

 

[Cookie Monster]

For one, we were insanely laid back at the time. That probably wouldn't go down the same way now.

 

[looneymoon]

Errr I can't say I'm 100% on the details of what's going on, but I think it might be at least constructive to have this Yoshi person come in here and say her piece/defend herself?

I realize that she's been harassing Tiff all over the nets, but there are always two sides to every story and I think it might be a bit more constructive to hear her piece before deciding what to do.

Even though I have an idea of what this defense may sound like (having an idea of what she's like) it's only fair she's able to say something.

 

[Ryushikaze]

For one, we were insanely laid back at the time. That probably wouldn't go down the same way now.

Also, UN was pretty much permabanned at the point he was told to FOAD, I think. If I'm wrong there, correct me. Anyways, Permanently banned/ flounced members are treated differently than currently active ones, regardless of how we might feel about them.