Do You Think We Will See Something This Year?

[Odysseus]

I also truly don't understand how, on the one hand, the devs supposedly don't want to replace and erase any of the Compilation, but on the other, they're basically fine replacing and erasing the OG with Remake? Didn't they also say that they don't want Remake to replace the OG? Of course, it's possible that's not what is being said and I'm just misunderstanding.

It's not erasing the compilation, nor is it replacing the OG. The way I see it, it is building upon all of it and using it all to bring things to an end for good. The compilation and OG are necessary to understand how we got here. Things like Sephiroth's time travel and Aerith's future memories rely on Advent Children for context, and if Genesis returns as I expect he will, he will be following up his appearance in Dirge.

But really, I think if the devs wanted to make an "OG extended", they could've just made an "OG extended" without the Whispers. They didn't need to exist, not even as a meta-explanation for changes. .....well, I guess they had to exist as an explanation to why Zack's alive now.

This is why I'm sure it's an out and out sequel. The things they set up in the end of the remake are like the opposite of conducive to a "we're just telling the same story but a bit different". Really, it screams "Thing will be different!", it basically demands it be so. The whole thing would be really stupid otherwise.

 

[Roundhouse]

Watsonian and Doylist terms are really getting a work out in this thread XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm sorry, Mako, I just truly don't understand how Remake leading into a different -- or rather its own -- ending is the same as nuking the Compilation if the Compilation is something that's already happened within the context of its story? So every story with time travel (again, if that's what is happening) is nuking itself if it doesn't lead to its beginning?

I didn't say "every story." I said the Remake given its own in-universe explanation of events and how time manipulation works. Just because something exists within the chain of causality or sequence, doesn't mean it still will tangibly exist properly if the past is actually altered. That's why the Whispers exist and do the things they do in the story, in the first place.

And it clearly appears that Zack's whole existence and the potential splitting of time from his point onward, has weird consequences.

also truly don't understand how, on the one hand, the devs supposedly don't want to replace and erase any of the Compilation, but on the other, they're basically fine replacing and erasing the OG with Remake? Didn't they also say that they don't want Remake to replace the OG? Of course, it's possible that's not what is being said and I'm just misunderstanding.

Because this isn't the OG. They're separate works and the Remake is an adaption of the events of the OG. Not sure why you keep saying that when you've answered the difference yourself. They're separate works. Nothing is saying, in-universe or from the writers, that the Remake is a replacement of the OG.

And honestly, having the Whispers and the "future" basically be represented by Croceo, Viridi and Rubrum, the three Sephiroth clones, doesn't sound exactly good. And I never quite understood why they'd fight for a future in which they fail and die anyway?

Did you not finish watching AC to the end? The Silver Haired Remnants returned to the Planet. They were purified. Kadaj and the rest of them are essentially children corrupted by Sephiroth's negative Lifestream. They would want to exist because any life wants to exist and deserves to exist.

When Aerith in the Ch18 of Remake says:

What you heard just now were the voices of the planet. Those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain. They... Their words...they don't reach him. All these moments and memories, precious and fleeting...they're like rain rolling off his back... And when they're gone, he won't cry...or shout...or anything. He'd tell you that he only cares about the planet. That he'd do everything in his power to protect and preserve it. But this isn't the way it's supposed to be.

Who or what do you think she's referring to here? What do you think this means? What were their intentions going into the Singularity after this point?

I don't know why people are so wildly misunderstanding or misrepresenting what the actual text states were the intentions/meaning of what the final battle was about. It's not ambiguous. Those voices, those cries from the Planet, belonged to the Whispers.

 

[Roundhouse]

'Who or what do you think she's referring to here? What do you think this means? What were their intentions going into the Singularity after this point?'

What is your own answer to this, Mako?

 

[JBedford]

I think people are talking past each other.

We're discussing why it's important that Remake leads into AC. And I keep reading the sentiment that Remake leading into AC is the only logical outcome because not leading into AC would be "disregarding it".

I think Ryeleigh's point is that if you're arguing AC not being in the final Remake timeline means "AC is being disregarded", then surely FFVII being superseded by Remake means OG is being disregarded.

Truth is Remake already regards both. AC will always be OG's follow up, and the OG+AC timeline matters to the Remake timeline.

 

[Makoeyes987]

'Who or what do you think she's referring to here? What do you think this means? What were their intentions going into the Singularity after this point?'

What is your own answer to this, Mako?

Well I already sorta answered. Aerith is referring to the Whispers. The voices of the Planet. Cloud and the others ventured into the Singularity to stop Sephiroth from harming them, the Planet, and kill him off before he started.

And they failed in that task, leaving Sephiroth free to pursue his scheme within the proper timeframe of FFVII. They also inadvertently pushed the Whispers out of tangible existence, leaving them unable to "lock in" the protected future where the Planet exists beyond his threat. This will be a significant plot detail that will be reckoned with, given that it's all but outright stated by the text itself. They really have to stop him now because the future doesn't have "destiny" to fall back on.

I think people are talking past each other.

We're discussing why it's important that Remake leads into AC. And I keep reading the sentiment that Remake leading into AC is the only logical outcome because not leading into AC would be "disregarding it".

I think Ryeleigh's point is that if you're arguing AC not being in the final Remake timeline means "AC is being disregarded", then surely FFVII being superseded by Remake means OG is being disregarded.

Truth is Remake already regards both. AC will always be OG's follow up, and the OG+AC timeline matters to the Remake timeline.

I'm not just saying "disregarded." I'm saying "destroyed." That's literally what the Remake story says are the consequences of the future no longer being aligned with what the planet has chosen. That's not an interpretation or speculation. It's literally the motivation of why those beings work and what is stated when they're assessed. It's not complicated.

When Nomura himself, and others have stated that the Remake is a different universe or adaption of the OG and does not supercede it, that answers the question already. The OG isn't at risk or at play here. It's merely the template or culmination of events in THIS story. Probably from the simple fact that there are no Whispers or anything that function like that within the OG story.

So it's the Remake's narrative itself that puts the stakes of whether or not the future Compilation's events will exist or not, on the table. That's not speculation.

 

[JBedford]

I agree with everything you just said.

Yeah, it wasn't from you I got "disregard". So you're insistent Remake will lead into AC because of how you've interpreted the developer quotes and because you think it makes more sense thematically with what they've done so far?

If so that's fine. That sure is one interpretation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Pretty much. I think it makes more narrative sense as it's the outcome the Planet strived to protect as the future which allows it to maintain it's proper, healthy lifespan. And also thematic/authorial sense because given how the writers feel about their work, and what they've repeated as their intention, they wouldn't want to undo their "future" for FFVII here. They made it the stakes for the Planet's continued, healthy existence for a reason.

Cloud and the others are currently ignorant of the consequences or ramifications of their actions in Part 1. They do not have full working knowledge of planet theory or Lifestream yet, and Aerith's Cetra understanding is limited and new. They all tried to do the right thing to save the Planet but inadvertently assisted Sephiroth by disabling the failsafe that protected the future.

 

[Golden Ear]

I think the developers want a clean slate to work with by the time the Remake Saga (covering the events of the OG) is done. I can see this continuing on with future games in one way or another and it would be more interesting to work with creative freedom (as boundless and terrifying as it is).

They can simultaneously write something new that also has the planet having a healthy existence, I don't see why not. There can be a new ending that isn't Sephiroths goal and even isn't the planet's original goal, they can have an entirely new outcome there are no rules.

I think this is why they are including all the compilation material into the Remake, it's their sendoff.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What part of their consistent interview responses makes you think they want anything close to a "clean slate?" By their own words, they're working with the creative freedom and intent they're comfortable with.

And what makes you think they intend to work on anything FFVII related past the Remake? By the time this project is done, they'll have been working on this for over a decade. I'm pretty positive they'll need a breather to step back and channel their creative energies elsewhere within S-E to simply avoid burnout. FFVII isn't going to last forever. And why should it?

 

[Golden Ear]

Yeah they're getting pretty old and they might be retiring afterwords so I don't see them wanting to continue working after they finish this. I think Nomura is the youngest so maybe he could continue doing work with FF7 material? Maybe it's possible for other writers to pickup the torch and use the characters who knows? I'm not saying I think this will definitely happen or anything just a thought.

What interviews are you referring to?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The interviews I cited like 2 pages ago. The ones that state their desire to connect the FFVII Remake to the Compilation to show how each title, from the games to novellas, thread together and integrate with the core story. Their creative desire to newly adapt these memorable moments of FFVII within this new AAA medium with the canon as foundation affords them the exact creative freedom they desire. They're not interested in breaking away from their work. They're bear hugging it close, if anything.

So I ultimately don't think their "freedom" is constrained at all. Aged or not, this (the Compilation) is their work and creative portfolio. Their creative child, and they've essentially grown it up here.

 

[Golden Ear]

That's all well and good but nothing about that says the end can't take a different turn then the OG. I'm not suggesting that they are not currently exercising their creative freedoms but instead that they will be continuing with them.

In my opinion I think they will re-create the ending but It will have a different twist to it in some way. But it's difficult to communicate this when we all have subjective opinions on where on the spectrum very different is versus slightly different.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So if Toriyama says something like, "I want to make it so fans who know the original game and the different Final Fantasy 7 universe titles can look forward to seeing how they all relate and join up with each other, while at the same time communicating how deep and amazing the world and characters of Final Fantasy 7 are to newcomers who will not have seen any of them" and the developers write within the story that the Planet's ultimate conscious choice for a future it survives in, is the one that's based on that Compilation... That means the writers ultimately want to take it on a different turn?

What are Cloud and the others opposing Sephiroth for? Who's side are they on?

Sephiroth is the villain, and his goal is to defy destiny and as usual, oppose the will of the Planet. So, where does that fall?

...The more I think about it, the more it feels like Chapter 18 is almost like a mirror, able to reflect someone's mindset or expectations really effectively despite it (at least to me) clearly communicating a very specific set of stakes and events that lay out the framework of a conflict, on it's own terms. It's at least clearer when coupled with what's been said outside of it too.

 

[Golden Ear]

To me what Toriyama was saying was basically just wanting to include elements of the compilation of FF7 all in one package so everyone can enjoy it even if you're not familiar with FF7 which I think we agree on. I'm not saying it definitely won't have the same ending but nothing about that says the ending has to be exactly the same either. The compilation can be included and enjoyed while still have a twist ending, why do you think this is as unlikely as you do?

To defy destiny does not necessarily mean it's bad for the planet. I'm suggesting something can happen that supersedes both the intentions of either Sephiroth or the Planet itself. Sephiroth is trying to trick them, yes. But destroying destiny is neutral, it doesn't have to only be in Sephiroth's favour. It doesn't have to automatically lead to the destruction of the planet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But that's not what he "basically" is saying. The text is clear, in regards to how the works "join" and "relate" with each other. It's not about just "including elements." I mean, he's saying a complete, clear sentence. There's no need to "basically" dissect it.

I don't think the ending has to be "exactly the same" either. I mean, numerous parts of the Remake (even the parts that the Whispers either "fixed" or "protected") aren't exactly the same. But they carry either the same general outcome or theme. So no, the ending doesn't (and perhaps can't) be the exact same. But I feel it will ultimately be very similar and lead to essentially the same direction. They wouldn't hold it's future to such a positive and important context, if it weren't.

And "defying destiny" most certainly does carry a negative, and "bad" outcome for the Planet. When has Sephiroth ever been a force of good for anything other than himself? How can it be "neutral" if Sephiroth literally is working intently on that scope and his goals lie in direct opposition to the planet's well being? Why would Sephiroth carry or embody the destiny of "death" and malevolent beauty, within the Edge of Creation?

The "destiny" of the planet was the future where the Planet survived Sephiroth and survived to live out it's own healthy lifespan at least 500 years to the future. That's not good now?

 

[Golden Ear]

"Join" and "relate" can be exactly that though, just like we've been seeing so far in the game. I'm not seeing anything about that saying the ending has to be the same (to a T).

Like I said earlier though: It's difficult to communicate this when we all have subjective opinions on where on the spectrum very different is versus slightly different.

We might actually have very similar ideas respectively to how this will generally play out. I think the Planet will survive in the end but maybe where we differ is I think the implication will be that it won't lead to AC or DoC or anything like that. I think they will do something that can potentially wrap it up in some way.

And "defying destiny" most certainly does carry a negative, and "bad" outcome for the Planet. When has Sephiroth ever been a force of good for anything other than himself? How can it be "neutral" if Sephiroth literally is working intently on that scope and his goals lie in direct opposition to the planet's well being? Why would Sephiroth carry or embody the destiny of "death" and malevolent beauty, within the Edge of Creation?

I'm suggesting that Sephiroths plan can backfire or cause unwanted results. Maybe I'm not familiar with your theory though, I'm under the impression that we defeated Destiny which I'm sure you agree. Is what you're suggesting that even though we did kill the ghosts, the goal of Cloud and gang is to understand what the planet's destiny is and make sure it plays out?

The "destiny" of the planet was the future where the Planet survived Sephiroth and survived to live out its own healthy lifespan at least 500 years to the future. That's not good now?

Yes the destiny that once was, but in defeating the whispers we can forge a new future that is still beneficial for the planet that never existed before. Why do you find this so unlikely?

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's not about "the ending." Toriyama is speaking about the writers and himself wanting to show how each of the different Final Fantasy 7 titles relate and join up with each other. Like, it's a straightforward sentence. That's how you see different relevant plot lines from each different Compilation title, like... Leslie Kyle, Kyrie and Mireille living out their implied past Midgar histories within the Remake, which are direct references to the AC novel, "The Kids Are Alright: A Turk's Side Story."

They wouldn't include that writing and effort if their ultimate goal was to just rewrite/undo/etc said novella in the first place.

I'm suggesting that Sephiroths plan can backfire or cause unwanted results. Maybe I'm not familiar with your theory though, I'm under the impression that we defeated Destiny which I'm sure you agree. Is what you're suggesting that even though we did kill the ghosts, the goal of Cloud and gang is to understand what the planet's destiny is and make sure it plays out?

Well now it has to backfire, because if it doesn't, Sephiroth wins

That's not a judgment of his scheme being neutral or potentially good, that's having to clean up a bad situation to make it a good one. Sephiroth has been given the chance he needs to create a future that gives him what he wants.

And no, I don't think we've "defeated destiny." We beat down the Planet's spiritual Weapons which were there to lock in a positive outcome where it was guaranteed to survive. That's not "defeating destiny." Ultimately what "destiny" is, is the outcome and events of FFVII, and they're still on track to happen. The only issue now is that narrative stakes have been added that no longer secure the fortunate outcome of the plot. Which is what the antagonist of the story is now on track to fight for. It's all "in play" now. But that's not saying they won't happen. Because that's what the heroes of the story are going to work to achieve.

It's like saying beating the Weapons that emerged from the Northern Crater defeated the planet. No, it did not. You just beatdown some agents of the Planet that were standing in the way.

Yes the destiny that once was, but in defeating the whispers we can forge a new future that is still beneficial for the planet that never existed before. Why do you find this so unlikely?

And what's that? What's that destiny?

I find it unlikely because I'm looking at what the themes of the story of FFVII are, it's stakes, it's losses, costs, it's overall character writing, and the character arcs each member of the party is going to experience. I'm looking at it straight from above in terms of where it's going and where it's been. I'm not sure how you think the heroes are going to somehow get a bigger, better bite from the cake now. And then what kind of story does that become? A power fantasy? A wish-fulfilling fairy tale?

 

[Golden Ear]

It's not about "the ending." Toriyama is speaking about the writers and himself wanting to show how each of the different Final Fantasy 7 titles relate and join up with each other. Like, it's a straightforward sentence. That's how you see different relevant plot lines from each different Compilation title, like... Leslie Kyle, Kyrie and Mireille living out their implied past Midgar histories within the Remake, which are direct references to the AC novel, "The Kids Are Alright: A Turk's Side Story."

They wouldn't include that writing and effort if their ultimate goal was to just rewrite/undo/etc said novella in the first place.

I'll have to ask you to clarify what you mean here. Aren't we talking about what will happen at the end? When you read "join up" is what you mean that Toryiama is saying is that all of the compilation that is woven into Remake has to ultimately be connected to the end result in a way where the compilation retains in a way that leads to AC ect? Like it has to ultimately "Join Up" at the end? But you're saying it's not about the ending? Sorry I'm confused.

And no, I don't think we've "defeated destiny." We beat down the Planet's spiritual Weapons which were there to lock in a positive outcome where it was guaranteed to survive. That's not "defeating destiny." Ultimately what "destiny" is, is the outcome and events of FFVII, and they're still on track to happen. The only issue now is that narrative stakes have been added that no longer secure the fortunate outcome of the plot. Which is what the antagonist of the story is now on track to fight for. It's all "in play" now. But that's not saying they won't happen. Because that's what the heroes of the story are going to work to achieve.

It's like saying beating the Weapons that emerged from the Northern Crater defeated the planet. No, it did not. You just beatdown some agents of the Planet that were standing in the way.

So basically you're saying it has to lead up to Advent Children because the 3 whispers we fight are trying to preserve the future where the planet exists (asd also gave shape to them since they are the advent children). Sephiroth tricked us to defeat the beings that are trying to preserve this. So as the story goes we will go forth we as the party will defeat Sephiroth and the ending happens which will lead to AC and Dirge.

I guess we have to talk about Geostigma and the 3 Advent Children and why they happen. Why can't we consider a future where geostigma doesn't happen? Is that possible?

And what's that? What's that destiny?

One that can be good but doesn’t necessarily lead to the events of AC or DoC.

I'm not sure how you think the heroes are going to somehow get a bigger, better bite from the cake now.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean like a more epic dramatic end thats different or extended?

 

[Ite]

Mako they aren’t undoing anything, everything exists in canon but it is being upended by the time travel shenanigans. This is sequentially the latest compilation entry, a story about Aeris and Sephiroth playing 4D chess after the events of DoC, told from the perspective of Cloud who is *not* a time traveller. It means that every Compilation entry is still canon, and we’re in a new loop.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'll have to ask you to clarify what you mean here. Aren't we talking about what will happen at the end? When you read "join up" is what you mean that Toryiama is saying is that all of the compilation that is woven into Remake has to ultimately be connected to the end result in a way where the compilation retains in a way that leads to AC ect? Like it has to ultimately "Join Up" at the end? But you're saying it's not about the ending? Sorry I'm confused.

This isn't just about the ending. I'm speaking of the entire project and how the writers are writing it. What their intentions are. Regarding Toriyama's statement, you understood that much. Yes, the way they carefully and consciously weave the Compilation into the relevant and contextual areas of the Remake's story speaks to how they wish to retain the material's importance and have each title lead to their eventual launch points in the FFVII canon. It shows how each title "joins up" with FFVII and goes from there.

So basically you're saying it has to lead up to Advent Children because the 3 whispers we fight are trying to preserve the future where the planet exists (asd also gave shape to them since they are the advent children). Sephiroth tricked us to defeat the beings that are trying to preserve this. So as the story goes we will go forth we as the party will defeat Sephiroth and the ending happens which will lead to AC and Dirge.

It'd be rather strange and pointless to point out that significance and fixture to the Planet's purpose if we're meant to simply axe it completely and intentionally.

I guess we have to talk about Geostigma and the 3 Advent Children and why they happen. Why can't we consider a future where geostigma doesn't happen? Is that possible?

Advent Children happens because of the inevitable proliferation of Jenova's mimetic legacy within the Lifestream after it's death. It does not join the planet cellularly or spiritually. Geostigma is the "virus" Jenova spread to the Cetra, except refined and repurposed by Sephiroth for a higher purpose and one he can manipulate as a spirit within the Planet. A future where Geostigma doesn't happen requires Jenova to somehow either be utterly annihilated off-planet or for Aerith to somehow preemptively create her healing rain two years ahead of time and rain it down. So how's that happening?

One that can be good but doesn’t necessarily lead to the events of AC or DoC.

Okay, and what does that look like? That's what I'm asking you to tell me

Because there are several clear threads of causality and events that lead to them happening. So either you think we're somehow going to have plot contrived precognition to prevent them from happening and/or the writers are going to literally undo the tension and conflict of FFVII to do a "happy" version of FFVII that keeps all the bad out and all the good in.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean like a more epic dramatic end thats different or extended?

I do think we might get a more epic and dramatic ending, but I also don't think we're getting a story where the heroes somehow win a happier or better series of events from this adaption of FFVII either.

Mako they aren’t undoing anything, everything exists in canon but it is being upended by the time travel shenanigans. This is sequentially the latest compilation entry, a story about Aeris and Sephiroth playing 4D chess after the events of DoC, told from the perspective of Cloud who is *not* a time traveller. It means that every Compilation entry is still canon, and we’re in a new loop.

I already answered this, and yes. It would undo it, going by the premise and understanding of how the Whispers work, alongside how time manipulation works in FFVII-R. The Arbiters of Fate performed their work for a reason. If events deviated too far, the future would be changed. Their assess data says explicitly they fight to protect the future that gave birth to them. So in terms of stakes for the Planet's future, all those souls are on the line. Those souls were the ones who were crying at the threat of Sephiroth's attempt to upend destiny, and are part of the Planet Cloud and the others were fighting to protect. And they ironically were also beating them up in the process. They may look like ominous robed monsters but they're Lifestream. Spirit energy from the future.

I'm not speaking about canon or if the Remake's a sequel or not. Just because something exists within the chain of causality or sequence, doesn't mean it still will tangibly exist properly if the past is actually altered. That's what FFVII-R is telling us.

 

[Ite]

But regardless, you don’t need to worry about whether 7R’s ending will lead to AC etc because it doesn’t need to? Their goal is to continue selling both the OG and Remake a la BTTF and BTTF Part 2.

AC follows the OG’s chronology where the Arbiters of Fate don’t interfere, so Remake doesn’t have to lead into AC. The goal isn’t for ppl to play Remake and then watch AC because AC takes place before Remake. The order goes OG>AC>7R. The result of project Remake is that the Compilation exists inside a tangent universe, it’s already defunct.

Defunct, not purposeless, the timeline of AC and DoC were necessary to create the conflict that lies at the heart of Remake. Just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean it isn’t clear.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think that's the case at all. And I would think it would "need to" because why would Cloud and the others purposefully ally themselves with Sephiroth, to somehow create a neverending world that somehow never dies? Why would they purposefully undo the future of the Planet's established life and erase it without a pause? This the same group of characters who didn't feel comfortable letting Shinra launch a bunch of huge materia into space to use as a missile because the materia was alive. And of course they oppose Shinra using lifestream as an energy source.

Why would FFVII's story miraculously "work itself out" to alleviate every negative consequence, cost, or "loss" connected to FFVII's sequence of events?

Why would the writers do the exact opposite of what they've said?

 

[Ite]

I don't think that's the case at all. And I would think it would "need to" because why would Cloud and the others purposefully ally themselves with Sephiroth, to somehow create a neverending world that somehow never dies? Why would they purposefully undo the future of the Planet's established life and erase it without a pause? This the same group of characters who didn't feel comfortable letting Shinra launch a bunch of huge materia into space to use as a missile because the materia was alive. And of course they oppose Shinra using lifestream as an energy source.

Why would FFVII's story miraculously "work itself out" to alleviate every negative consequence, cost, or "loss" connected to FFVII's sequence of events?

Why would the writers do the exact opposite of what they've said?

INDEED

 

[Golden Ear]

I'm not suggesting a super happy rainbow and sunshine ending, I'm just suggesting an ending that doesn't lead to AC ect.

Okay, and what does that look like? That's what I'm asking you to tell me

It's fiction, they can write a reason for things changing. I'm purposely not coming up with anything specific because their are tons of ways to change the story. I'm just going to see what happens.

A future where Geostigma doesn't happen requires Jenova to somehow either be utterly annihilated off-planet or for Aerith to somehow preemptively create her healing rain two years ahead of time and rain it down. So how's that happening?

Like I said above, we are dealing with a fictional story and Nojima can write almost anything! I'm sure he will do it in a way that honours the original story though but with twists. Maybe Jenova does get annihilated somehow but maybe something else bad happens a result there's so many things that could potentially happen. To be clear I think a lot of Remake will play-out very similar to the OG but there's no reason why difference's like this can't be written.