Doctor Who!!~

[X-SOLDIER]

I would like to point out that something that has been MASSIVELY foreshadowed happened as predicted and went down without anyone pointing it out:

Spoiler

-because it was RIVER who said the Doctor's name while she was a projection from the library, the Doctor never answered when confronted by The Great Intelligence about his name: SILENCE FELL WHEN THE QUESTION WAS ASKED. and what was the source of that silence that everyone heard when the question was asked? THE SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY.

I am still picking pieces of my brain up off of the floor after realizing that.



X

 

[Tennyo]

Just finished watching the finale.

Spoiler

It was a very cool concept. I do have to admire the vision of it, but it just felt disjointed, like something else should have been included to make it whole.

Such as, why were we never given a nod to River going to the Library in a past episode? And no, I don't feel like those mini episodes really should count. Let's find a way to plan and pace the show proper and make it actually happen. Those things are like, when a game manufacturer makes a game series, then releases hand held sequels that aren't just fun side filler, but important to the actual plot *coughKingdomHeartscough*, forcing you to pay hundreds of dollars on things you don't want and will probably never use again once you are done just to get the whole story. That's when I stop caring about the franchise and no longer play the games. :/

If Moffat's reason for not including The Doctor sending River off to The Library was because there was a brief mention of it in "Night and the Doctor," then that just seems kind of sloppy. The mini-sodes were fun, but shouldn't be used for huge plot points. She was all good and fine in the first half of season seven, then is just dead for a long time at the end? At the very least a brief five second nod to the event would have been appropriate.

It's kind of the same with Vastra, Jenny, and Strax. As characters, I do like them, but it always bothered me that they were never introduced. They were just magically there, The Doctor's closest friends who have seen him through so much pain that he trusts so completely.

This individual episode itself was good. I enjoyed all of the nods to past Doctors, and Clara telling The Doctor which TARDIS to steal was kind of funny. Clara was pretty much Bad Wolf 2.0 as I figured she would be, which I did enjoy. But looking back to view the season as a whole as one story, there was so much missing.

Not to mention I still don't find Doctor/River to be believable. This episode didn't really change that. I had been hoping something would come along to cement their relationship so that I could actually get into it, but nothing ever did. I just found myself asking why, mostly. Why did The Doctor care about her so much? When did he really start? Hell, I have the same questions about River and her feelings for The Doctor. I don't see a believable beginning for her. I don't quite understand where along the line she fell so deeply in love with him.

At this point I would believe a love story between The Doctor and Clara more than him and River. Hell, I think I would have found Doctor/Amy more believable as well.

Especially because River knowing The Doctor's name is a very monumental thing. It would have been nice to see him tell her. It would have been nice to actually see him grow to trust and care for her enough to do so. We were never shown this, we were told. Told that this is the way it is, just because the writers say so instead of the plot actually leading us there.

So many great concepts, but same with how I felt in the second half of season six, not a very good presentation. I feel like Moffat is trying to make the show flashy and timey wimey to the point of sacrificing coherent plot. All of the "good points" of the these past two seasons seem more cosmetic than anything.

In essence, Moffat = George Lucas of British SciFi? Because his episodes were so good when he wasn't the one in charge. I sure hope the 50th is good, but honestly I don't know if I'm as excited about it as I was pre-season finale.

I would like to point out that something that has been MASSIVELY foreshadowed happened as predicted and went down without anyone pointing it out:

Spoiler

-because it was RIVER who said the Doctor's name while she was a projection from the library, the Doctor never answered when confronted by The Great Intelligence about his name: SILENCE FELL WHEN THE QUESTION WAS ASKED. and what was the source of that silence that everyone heard when the question was asked? THE SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY.

I am still picking pieces of my brain up off of the floor after realizing that.

haha Okay, now that is kind of clever. Whether or not Moffat actually intended for us to make that connection, who knows? But that is clever.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@Tenny: I think that the REASON that Moffat does a lot of that through minisodes is because the show as a whole is done by lots of different writers, so it's loosely coherent for non-main characters (i.e. anyone not a companion), because they can only come in during certain stories and it's more difficult to fit in fully detailed stories about them without needing to devote an entire story to just them (which isn't a bad idea, but it's often difficult to work in while still building up a greater arc).

As for The Doctor and River: their relationship works a lot better if you watch her episodes in HER order once (which involves a couple awkward episodes but is ultimately really rewarding, though I'll have to do it again now that there're more episodes out). Within the context of the episode,

Spoiler

I actually liked that the reveal was sprung on the audience. We've seen the Doctor being especially retreated and everyone wonders why he hasn't spent time with River, and it's because he did, and those moments already passed. It's one of those things that I liked better as a reveal getting dropped, rather than seeing it coming. Plus, I always wanted that moment to be something that I could imagine the way I wanted.

But we still have one question…


WHO THE HELL GAVE CLARA THE DOCTOR'S PHONE NUMBER?



X

 

[Tennyo]

If Moffat can't do it because of the reasons you said then it shouldn't be attempted at all. Simple as that.

Things can still be left up to the imagination and yet still be coherent to the plot.

Spoiler

for the singing towers, we could have just been shown him at least turning up on her doorstep to mark the occasion. Have fun imaging the rest for yourself.

It's just sloppy. As I said, we're being told, not shown. I can't connect with these characters like that.

Moffat has so many great concepts, but they don't always come to fruition. Season five was fine, and the ending left me excited.

Spoiler

But then the show completely forgot about what just happened. The cracks in the Universe still haven't been explained. How a crack could get on the TARDIS still hasn't been explained. I certainly hope it is still addressed at some point, but I'm beginning to think it never will be.

And then there's the Silence. Is the show done with them? I hope not, because I don't feel like anything was resolved.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, are you saying you'd rather not have River, Jenny, Vastra, & Strax because we can't afford to spend lots of time seeing everything about where they came from? All we get is a brief moment explaining who Captain Jack is, and the Torchwood "handheld series to you can't be bothered with" details aside, we have a mysterious bit with him, but we never get a huge amount of his story. We're told about his past as a time agent, just like we've been told about how the Doctor encountered Strax and sentenced him to punishment.

....Ummmm the cracks in the universe were caused by the TARDIS exploding all across time & space. They were most certainly explained. The Silence's entire motivation has been to attempt to silence the Doctor from revealing his secret at Trenzalore, and prevent the events of the season finale from taking place. I dunno, I feel like most things have been followed up on even though they can be a little complex or confusing at times. Hell, even

Spoiler

the Doctor's death in Utah being public record is important, so that anyone looking for his gravesite is directed there and not to Trenzalore.

As for River,

Spoiler

I don't think that it's necessary to see that moment, but that might just be me. If we did, the whole reveal about River showing up in an episode AFTER she's in the library is kinda ruined immediately. Thematically, there's a reason for not showing those details in order to preserve a different reveal, especially because the fans can still fill in the gaps in between with events that they know. Plus it likely happened a while back which helps to explain why the Doctor has been ok with Clara being a little flirty. It even puts more emphasis on the fact that he doesn't like endings, so those events have been avoided entirely and for me, they hit harder when they're unexpected.

X

 

[Roger]

So, are you saying you'd rather not have River, Jenny, Vastra, & Strax because we can't afford to spend lots of time seeing everything about where they came from? All we get is a brief moment explaining who Captain Jack is, and the Torchwood "handheld series to you can't be bothered with" details aside, we have a mysterious bit with him, but we never get a huge amount of his story. We're told about his past as a time agent, just like we've been told about how the Doctor encountered Strax and sentenced him to punishment.

....Ummmm the cracks in the universe were caused by the TARDIS exploding all across time & space. They were most certainly explained. The Silence's entire motivation has been to attempt to silence the Doctor from revealing his secret at Trenzalore, and prevent the events of the season finale from taking place. I dunno, I feel like most things have been followed up on even though they can be a little complex or confusing at times. Hell, even

Spoiler

the Doctor's death in Utah being public record is important, so that anyone looking for his gravesite is directed there and not to Trenzalore.

As for River,

Spoiler

I don't think that it's necessary to see that moment, but that might just be me. If we did, the whole reveal about River showing up in an episode AFTER she's in the library is kinda ruined immediately. Thematically, there's a reason for not showing those details in order to preserve a different reveal, especially because the fans can still fill in the gaps in between with events that they know. Plus it likely happened a while back which helps to explain why the Doctor has been ok with Clara being a little flirty. It even puts more emphasis on the fact that he doesn't like endings, so those events have been avoided entirely and for me, they hit harder when they're unexpected.

X

Spoiler

I believe he is talking about the presence that took control of the Tardis, made the screen break and said "silence will fall". If that was suppose to be one of the Silents then I missed where they were shown to have that ability/technology.

 

[Tennyo]

So, are you saying you'd rather not have River, Jenny, Vastra, & Strax because we can't afford to spend lots of time seeing everything about where they came from? All we get is a brief moment explaining who Captain Jack is, and the Torchwood "handheld series to you can't be bothered with" details aside, we have a mysterious bit with him, but we never get a huge amount of his story. We're told about his past as a time agent, just like we've been told about how the Doctor encountered Strax and sentenced him to punishment.[/spoiler]

The difference here, though, is that we actually know how The Doctor met Jack. There was a whole two-part episode devoted to it. We saw it happen. He doesn't just randomly show up on the TARDIS, already established as a friend, with a passing remark of, "Oh yeah we were in the London Blitz with gas mask zombies and now I'm here." It was an actual episode.

Also, Torchwood is not required viewing for knowing what is going on with the plot of the flagship series. I myself have only seen maybe half of season one, and some of those episodes I was running around the house not paying attention. I just couldn't get into it. But everything that we need to know about Jack as far as Doctor Who itself goes was explained in Doctor Who. We even got to see how he became immortal. We even had an entire season devoted to explaining where Torchwood came from in the first place, and why it came into being. Torchwood didn't just magically materialize into existence with no explanation.

....Ummmm the cracks in the universe were caused by the TARDIS exploding all across time & space. They were most certainly explained. The Silence's entire motivation has been to attempt to silence the Doctor from revealing his secret at Trenzalore, and prevent the events of the season finale from taking place. I dunno, I feel like most things have been followed up on even though they can be a little complex or confusing at times. Hell, even

Spoiler

the Doctor's death in Utah being public record is important, so that anyone looking for his gravesite is directed there and not to Trenzalore.

No, the cracks really haven't been explained.

Spoiler

Caused by the TARDIS exploding? That was a given, but how did the TARDIS explode? It had a universe crack inside it. But where did the Silence get the technology to achieve such a feat? Why did they even resort to that method? They wanted to stop The Doctor from reaching Trenzalore, but they try to achieve this by causing all of reality to collapse, thus erasing not only themselves but all of creation from existence? That's some serious overkill there.

As for River,

Spoiler

I don't think that it's necessary to see that moment, but that might just be me. If we did, the whole reveal about River showing up in an episode AFTER she's in the library is kinda ruined immediately. Thematically, there's a reason for not showing those details in order to preserve a different reveal, especially because the fans can still fill in the gaps in between with events that they know. Plus it likely happened a while back which helps to explain why the Doctor has been ok with Clara being a little flirty. It even puts more emphasis on the fact that he doesn't like endings, so those events have been avoided entirely and for me, they hit harder when they're unexpected.

It really was necessary.

Spoiler

The ending of "Angels Take Manhattan" seemed like it had a bit of a positive note, then suddenly the Christmas special comes and The Doctor has hidden himself away and is brooding. If this was caused by River it kind of would have been important to know. He wasn't just mourning Amy and Rory, but River as well, thus the entire Pond family that he had grown attached to was now gone. That seems kind of important.

 

[Roger]

We can keep Jenny out of that count; he met Vastra before, no reason to think she was already with Jenny back then.

 

[Mantichorus]

I wonder who the person they can't talk about is...

WHO THE HELL GAVE CLARA THE DOCTOR'S PHONE NUMBER?

Somewhat hilarious in that a friend is with Virgin Media for phone lines, TV, net, etc., and their main advertising campaign features David Tennant. So, every time they ring the helpline, they get the Doctor.

 

[Tennyo]

We can keep Jenny out of that count; he met Vastra before, no reason to think she was already with Jenny back then.

Fair enough. I did rewatch "A Good Man Goes to War" recently and had forgotten that Jenny didn't know who he was at first.

But I would still have loved to have seen him at least meet Vastra and Strax. The episode with Strax, at least, could have been quite lulzy.

And think how sweet it would be if we got to see Jenny and Vastra fall in love.

And I do think I was a little grumpier in my criticism of the episode than I meant to be. Was kind of grumpy from being sick. But now I've slept all day, feeling better. It did have a lot of good points, as I did also mention before.

But quite honestly the one thing that piques my interest the most is John Hurt.

Spoiler

So he IS the "True Ninth"? Or, was he an incarnation that did not refer to himself as The Doctor?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

People on TV Tropes are also theorising that John Hurt may have been an incarnation from before William Hartnell's Doctor:

Assuming he actually is a previous incarnation, then there are only two possible points he could have come from; between the Eighth and Ninth Doctors, or before the First.

Consider what was said about the secret, "you've been running from your whole life". The Doctor who started running was the First. So the secret dates back to him. So, although he was the first Doctor, he was not the first incarnation of that Time Lord. He changed his name after regenerating and started running from whatever he had done. Yes, the First Doctor wasn't really a good guy when we met him, but he was still reforming. Perhaps at that point he was thinking that he'd already done the worst he could, and couldn't really be any worse.

This would be consistent with the multiple pre-Hartnell Doctors implied by The Brain of Morbius.

Other theories:

The EU toys with the idea that the Doctor was, in an earlier life (via either an incarnation before the First, a literal reincarnation, literally made from his raw material, etc), a Time Lord known as "the Other", who co-founded Time Lord society alongside Rassilon and Omega.

John Hurt's Doctor is the one who killed the Time Lords, but also the one who made it necessary to kill them. During the Time War, the Eighth Doctor found out that he will one day destroy the Time Lords. He couldn't do anything about it, but then he died and regenerated into much darker John Hurt's Doctor. This Doctor decided to save the Time Lords any way he could, and came up with a plan, the same plan seen in The End of Time. However, he then realized he didn't want to be responsible for that, and decided to stop it only way he could: by killing all the Time Lords. He then went to Trenzalore to await his death and regeneration into Nine. So the other Doctors hate him, not because he killed the Time Lords, but because he made it necessary to kill them.

John Hurt's Doctor is exactly what the Doctor said he is. He's the incarnation between 8 and 9 who did such utterly terrible things during the time war that he does not consider himself the Doctor. This would make the Ninth Doctor the 10th incarnation, but not the 10th Doctor, and so on. This means Simeon's mention of the Valeyard may become relevant in the near future, as that would make 11 the twelfth incarnation.

• Perhaps John Hurt's Doctor is from a time BEFORE he took on the persona of the Doctor. Before becoming the 1st Doctor, he acted closer to the Time Lord Victorious, which led to a event that broke him so greatly he ran.
  
  • The way 11 spoke to him and the way he replied sort of implied that it was an incarnation that had been the Doctor prior.
    • He is the incarnation between Eight and Nine, as we have never seen Eight regenerate and this is the only possible place he can be from because the Doctor clearly remembers him as being in the past. However, given the Doctor's free admission of committing genocide and doing other horrible things to end the time war, the only explanation is that this one did something much, much worse to the point that The Doctor wants to expunge him from all memory for all time forever.
    • We never see Two regenerating into Three either…

The John Hurt's Doctor is not the past or future Doctor. He is not the one who stopped the Time War. Nor did he end some nebulous future conflict. He is the Doctor from the poisoned timeline created by the Great Intelligence whose every victory was turned into defeat, who gave up the moniker of the Doctor, and who perhaps destroyed his entire universe in the name of peace. In other words, he's the Valeyard.

• Normally, Valeyard guesses annoy me, because he's never been mentioned once in the new series... until this episode, when the Great Intelligence listed him with other names the Doctor would have... so if this isn't true, Moffat has deliberately tried to mislead us, because there is no way he couldn't realise how people would read into that.
  • If he's not a previous Doctor (Which This Troper really hopes he's not) he has to be the Valeyard. After all, the Valeyard was the Doctor, albeit a future one. And this Season introduced the Great Intelligence as played by a different actor why couldn't the Valeyard?
    • He can't be one of the eleven we know, as Clara explicitly set him apart from them (and called Smith the Eleventh Doctor). On top of that, the Doctor's dialogue suggests he already knows who this Doctor is, which means he may not be the Valeyard since that's a pre-Twelfth incarnation.
    • The Doctor already knows who the Valeyard is. On the other hand, the Valeyard is not the kind of person to do things "in the name of peace and sanity".
    • You never know. He might have had Character Development over time. Or he could simply use the claim as justification for his actions; plenty of other Doctor's foes have claimed to act for greater good while gratifying their selfish impulses.

John Hurt's Doctor is no one other than the Valeyard
The valeyard is all what is bad about the Doctor, and the Doctor is dead afraid of both of them. With time being rewritten, there is no need to use the old actor
John Hurt's Doctor can't be the Valeyard, the Valeyard is all the hate and malice the Doctor didn't express. John Hurt's Doctor did commit a terrible act, but still acted with some form a conscience.

• You only have his own word for it. Just because he claims that his actions are justifiable doesn't make it true. The Cybermen, for example, always insist that they are working in the name of peace and equality. Also, while Valeyard is all the hate and malice that the Doctor has pent up, he is still the same person and is likely to have a conscience, just monstrously warped and capable of justifying almost any action in the name of greater good.
  • The Valeyard does not have a conscience, in every appearance he had in the classic series he was defined by his selfish desire for self-preservation and egotism, what John Hurt's Doctor did, the Doctor accepts, but not as the Doctor.
  • The new series has added extra depth to characters like the Master. Giving Valeyard similar treatment would fit the trend. As I already mentioned, he is still the Doctor and has his characteristics, albeit horribly warped.
    • Furthermore, even the Valeyard could, for example, save the universe if his own life was at stake, even if he didn't have a better reason for it.

I'm not sure which of these I like the most. I do, however, like the theory that Hurt's Doctor was what Eleven saw behind the door in "The God Complex", which seems quite likely now.

ETA: This Slate piece is really good. Massive spoilers, sweetie. This piece on Tor is good too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

My feelings about all this can be summed up thusly: I want to make babies with Tenny. But then I've not made it a secret that I see Moffat as a bit of a hack who is good at individual episodes but can't spin an arc out of anything to save his life. When did discussions of "Doctor Who" start reading like threads about "LOST"?

I guess I haven't made it a particular secret that I want to have babies with Tenny either, though, so -- as you were, folks. =P

 

[The Doctor]

Time for my two penneth I feel.

Moffat needs to stop trying to make the Doctor a fucking fairytale-esque wonder man. When he does the Doctor as a man of science the stories tend to be better, whats frustrating for me is that i KNOW Moffat is an epic Doctor Who writer: The Empty Child, The Girl In The fireplace, Blink etc. But every time moffat tries to recapture the essence of those stories he falls flat on his arse....until the name of the doctor. I loved pretty much of of this episode and i feel it's gone a long way to redeeming Moffat's reputation for me and has restored my faith in the man's ability to be in control of Doctor Who. For Now. The fiftieth NEEDS to be a bigger and better story than this (i can't really see how though) but the John Hurt reveal was a serious OMG moment that, i'm hoping, can only be topped by Tennant. Fingers crossed.

The nods to the previous doctors was such a welcome addition even if the CGI looked a tad dreadful on times (Troughton's appearance). How the fuck did Moffat manage to make the sixths doctor look kind of cool. any episode which does that MUST be a win right.

now, did Hurt's Doctor end the time war or is t something much more disturbing?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Moffat needs to stop trying to make the Doctor a fucking fairytale-esque wonder man. When he does the Doctor as a man of science the stories tend to be better, whats frustrating for me is that i KNOW Moffat is an epic Doctor Who writer: The Empty Child, The Girl In The fireplace, Blink etc.

Yeah, that is what's most frustrating. Those are some of the best stand-alone episodes period (and "A Good Man Goes to War" was made of awesome as well, of course).

 

[X-SOLDIER]

When did discussions of "Doctor Who" start reading like threads about "LOST"?

I think that the big difference between the RTD era & the Moffat era is how they use time travel. In the RTD era, 90% of the time, time travel was really nothing more than a backdrop to what else was happening with the story. In the Moffat era, 90% of the time, the mechanics of time travel are absolutely integral to how the story plays out.

If you were going to compare other media's use of time travel, I'd say it's like comparing Terminator & Looper (or for a longer running example, all of the Back to the Future films with The Sarah Connor Chronicles). Time travel certainly happens, and is involved in making the plots possible in the original Terminator & in the Back to the Future films, but the solution and resolutions to those films is always relatively simple, when it comes to resolving the plot that was set up because of them. By contrast, Looper & The Sarah Connor Chronicles both involve exceptionally deep and complex mechanics of time travel in every asset of their storytelling - which often ends up leading to lots of discussion to piece everything together because chunks of the storyline of those narratives are usually fractured and not all presented as a single piece.


I'll agree with Doc's observation about the whole fairytale whatnot. I think that the REASON that A Good Man Goes To War & The Name of The Doctor work so well is because the backdrop for everything is VERY firmly grounded in a setting that holds a strong emotional and physical tie for everything to take place in. When your setting is solid, The Doctor can be more mysterious. When the setting is more fantastical, you NEED The Doctor to be at his most real and down-to-Earth to balance everything out.


That all being said, I think that (since we've all had the season finale released in our regions, I'm just going to be out with it, so SPOILERS if anyone's reading this thread without having seen it for some reason): I think that John Hurt's incarnation HAS to be the incarnation between the 8th and 9th Doctors, because Eleven states that, "He's the one who broke the promise." and if he was any incarnation BEFORE the first Doctor, there'd have been no promise made yet to BE broken. So, it's looking like the Eleventh Doctor is the twelfth regeneration. That still puts the possibility for the Valeyard out there, since we're talking about his later regenerations, but we know that Matt & Jenna are gonna be back for the 2014 series, so I'm not sure if we'd be addressing the idea of a post-Eleven regeneration yet, as that seems a little odd.

Since we've seen the Zygons stomping around, there's still the possibility of The Doctor having a crisis of identity, while the shape-shifting enemies prey on his personal insecurities. I'm really curious what sort of things are in store, but I still don't trust John Hurt's "Doctor" to be trustworthy or at the very least, probably not 100% an ally to The Doctors' (Ten's & Eleven's) plan(s).


X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think that the big difference between the RTD era & the Moffat era is how they use time travel. In the RTD era, 90% of the time, time travel was really nothing more than a backdrop to what else was happening with the story. In the Moffat era, 90% of the time, the mechanics of time travel are absolutely integral to how the story plays out.

I think this may be a big part of my problem with Moffat's reign. I do like those kind of things ("Blink" is one of my absolute favorite episodes), but, goddamn, how much mileage can you get out of an idea like that before it becomes more about trying to be clever by necessity because you tried to be all sexy and mysterious for too long?

 

[Tennyo]

Spoiler

People on TV Tropes are also theorising that John Hurt may have been an incarnation from before William Hartnell's Doctor:



Other theories:









I'm not sure which of these I like the most. I do, however, like the theory that Hurt's Doctor was what Eleven saw behind the door in "The God Complex", which seems quite likely now.

All of those are fairly good theories,

Spoiler

but I really can't see it being an incarnation before his first one. I really do think it needs to be a forsaken one between Eight and Nine. Destroying your entire species and attempting to destroy a second.

What could really be worse than that?

My feelings about all this can be summed up thusly: I want to make babies with Tenny. But then I've not made it a secret that I see Moffat as a bit of a hack who is good at individual episodes but can't spin an arc out of anything to save his life. When did discussions of "Doctor Who" start reading like threads about "LOST"?

I guess I haven't made it a particular secret that I want to have babies with Tenny either, though, so -- as you were, folks. =P

Well, I wouldn't call Moffat a hack. Sherlock is quite good. And I really do admire his vision and the scope he tries to bring to the stories. I do like that he tries to make the show more grandiose, however, my main gripe is that I feel he sacrifices his characters to do so. And no, I don't mean killing them off.

But I'm flattered that you would make babies with me. :3

How the fuck did Moffat manage to make the sixths doctor look kind of cool. any episode which does that MUST be a win right.

haha This so much! I actually didn't cringe when he waltzed across the screen.

now, did Hurt's Doctor end the time war or is t something much more disturbing?

What could possibly be more disturbing than ending the Time War?

I think this may be a big part of my problem with Moffat's reign. I do like those kind of things ("Blink" is one of my absolute favorite episodes), but, goddamn, how much mileage can you get out of an idea like that before it becomes more about trying to be clever by necessity because you tried to be all sexy and mysterious for too long?

I think this is how I have felt through most of seasons six and seven as well. If he wants to be clever and timey wimey then fine, but if that's the only thing you have got going for the story, you'll lose me. If you can't make me care about the people that these extraordinary things are happening to, I'm not going to be impressed by said extraordinary things.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

I dunno, but I'm pretty sure it has to be more than just ending the Time War by sealing the Time Lords away and killing all the Daleks, because he's openly admitted to that. Perhaps Hurt's Doctor had a role in starting it or something.

 

[Tennyo]

Oh now there's an idea,

Spoiler

him being the one who first started the war

Do theorize more.

Come on, Aaron, talk Time War to me.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Oh, I'll gladly talk Time War to you, if you know what I mean

I'm still turning over some ideas about what all of this might mean. I may write up a long post tomorrow after work if I'm not too tired. One idea I like from TV Tropes is

Spoiler

Hurt's Doctor also being the Shalka Doctor:

The meta implications alone are delightful: an "official" Ninth Doctor later retconned out of the canon by the BBC, who ultimately becomes a Ninth Doctor retconned out of the canon (in a manner of speaking) by the character himself. That the Shalka Doctor was originally played by Richard E. Grant (Simeon/The Great Intelligence) adds an extra layer of irony that seems irresistable - and possibly even intentional - to a Trolling Creator like Moffatt. Having Grant reprise the role, though, would've been too on-the-nose, so having him play the season's villain serves as the requisite nod to the character's origin.

There's also a theory that the Doctor is somehow a reincarnation of "the Other", one of the founders of the Time Lords. This actually has support from EU materials.

 

[Tennyo]

I saw something on Pinterest yesterday about how

Spoiler

he was the Shalka Doctor.

I admit I haven't watched that yet. I'll have to make sure I do so before the 50th.

 

[Joe]

I finally watched the Episode. Gotta say I really liked it.

I only had one gripe and that was

Spoiler

that I wished Jenny died permanently during the whole conference call thing. I absolutely love her character but the way that 'death' was done was beautiful and truly heartbreaking. I really feel like it takes so much away from a scene like that when it goes back to being 'everything is FINE now!'

Still though, great finale.

 

[Mantichorus]

Oh now there's an idea,

Spoiler

him being the one who first started the war

Actually we know which Time Lord(s) fired the first shot at the Daleks...

Spoiler: classic series spoiler

The Celestial Intervention Agency, when they sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro to destroy the Daleks in their crib. The Last Great Time War broke out when the Daleks finally managed to rival Time Lords in their time travel technology (having had access to time travel since the First Doctor's days).

 

[Ⓐaron]

Spoiler

I had my suspicions that they wouldn't kill Jenny off permanently, so I never really believed that her death would stick when it happened. She's too beloved by the fanbase.

Regarding the Celestial Intervention Agency, yes, but how do we know Hurt's Doctor wasn't part of it? Or gave the orders to have it started in the first place? Granted, it's a bit of a temporal snarl, but it's not as if those are new to DW.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But we still have one question…


WHO THE HELL GAVE CLARA THE DOCTOR'S PHONE NUMBER?



X

My Money's on SJS.