Doctor Who!!~

[X-SOLDIER]

Neil Gaiman addresses the whole "renumbering issue" like a boss.

I don't see the issue just calling him the War Doctor, and not assigning him a number.

In my mind this is how I think of them:
• First Doctor
• Second Doctor
• Third Doctor
• Fourth Doctor
• Fifth Doctor
• Sixth Doctor
• Seventh Doctor
• Eighth Doctor
• War Doctor (especially because the premise of his regeneration was focused on no longer being "The Doctor" even if he finally became "The Doctor" again at the end of The Day of The Doctor, I still feel that this change and his age triggered his regeneration into 9).
• Ninth Doctor
• Tenth Doctor
• Eleventh Doctor
• Twelfth Doctor (or Thirteenth Doctor, since it's only at/AFTER Eleven learns everything that he actually considers his previous War regeneration to still be one of the Doctors, but I think that it really all just depends on how they refer to him. Personally the "No sir, ALL THIRTEEN" being his entrance might just stick. I'm fine not ever having a proper "Twelfth Doctor" if that's how it plays out).

I challenge anyone to tell me it's not better.

Anyway, thanks for the good times in here, everyone. I'll be hoping for the name of The Doctor to actually be redeemed at some point.

What Ryu said. Personally, I vastly prefer the direction it IS going.

Cheers, mate. I'll miss chatting with ya.


Christmas Episode, "The Time of The Doctor" much bigger versions of the preview image at the following link:

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/2013-christmas-special-the-time-of-the-doctor-56176.htm

X

 

[Ryushikaze]

I THOUGHT the Cyber Head in DotD was lingered on an awful lot.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Also, here's some pretty awesome Head Canon about DotD. It's something that I think that Tenny will love, and may even be something that Tres would('ve) appreciate(d).

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/doctor-who-headcanon-spoilers-for-the-50th-1471353766




X

 

[Ryushikaze]

I, meanwhile, had an odd thought that The Moment is The Tardis, saving her Doctor yet again, with her comment about getting past and future confused

Then again, with Bad Wolf Rose, there's a bit of TARDIS in there anyways

 

[Tennyo]

This thread just got really sad.

But I did appreciate the headcanon, X.

 

[Dana Scully]

As my final word on the subject, I'm just gonna steal someone else's post from tumblr.

I don't think people really get it. Maybe it doesn't change what the Doctor feels, but it definitley changes what I feel. Watching scences where the Doctor talks about his family and his home broke my heart, but now it's just gonna be like "lol not actually tho".

Anyways, I've now come up with my own headcanon version of the 50th that allows for Gallifrey being destroyed but some of the Time Lords surviving, so I've (mostly) stopped caring about the retcon.

Re that headcanon, I have issues with anything that tries to take s1-4 event and make them fit Gallifrey being not-dead, since at the time as far as the writers were concerned Gallifrey was most definitely dead-dead. Still, if you're okay with that sorta thing then it is a cool theory.

Also, apparently the x-mas special will answer like, every plot thread ever (cracks in the universe, the Silence, Trenzalore, regen limit). I suspect it will be pretty crazy.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Ok, I'm finally not posting from my phone, so I'm gonna get into this in a little bit more detail:

I don't think people really get it. Maybe it doesn't change what the Doctor feels, but it definitley changes what I feel. Watching scences where the Doctor talks about his family and his home broke my heart, but now it's just gonna be like "lol not actually tho".

See, this is where I think that the people making this claim aren't really getting it. This type of response is treating it like they're all back on everything's ok with Gallifrey, but it's not. There's HOPE, but that's it.

In The Angels Take Manhattan, Amy & Rory are locked in another time that's inaccessible, but it didn't make the fact that they were trapped there any less tragic just because they were technically still alive when they were trapped. Gallifrey right now still doesn't exist in all of our time and space and it's frozen as well.

Yes, in a WAY, that's different than them being dead. To me that's potentially even more tragic when he talks about all the people that he's lost because of the Time War, and here's why: When it's 9/10/pre-DotD-11, he's sad because he was responsible for their deaths immediately upon using The Moment. However, looking at this in hind sight and in everything moving from this point onward from The Day of The Doctor, there's a different type of tragedy to it.

Now the Doctor KNOWS that somehow he can find them - and it's something he can't ever give up. This isn't something that he can just grow out of and move on from like he did when he'd burned Gallifrey (which we see with Eleven). For all intents and purposes, this is the still same as before but ALSO makes him even more responsible for their fates than he was before. Now the fate of Gallifrey rests on him being able to finish doing the RIGHT THING, rather than doing THE WRONG thing, and that's what's most important to me about how DotD affected his character.

• The immediate consequences of Gallifrey being gone from the current universe are the same as before - the Time Lords are all gone, and they were lost in the final day of the Time War. The Doctor rid the universe of them in order to end the Time War, and thus left himself as the last living Time Lord in all of time and space. He's all alone.

• The long-term consequences of everyone on Gallifrey SURVIVING all rests with the Doctor. If he doesn't find them - it's exactly the same as if he'd burned them out of time. THAT is his new motivation, and it's powerful BECAUSE of how painful it was before. He KNOWS that pain, and giving up on finding Gallifrey is the same as burning them all away all over again.

THIS is why I call it Schrödinger's Gallifrey: the survival of Gallifrey all depends on the Doctor finding and saving them - which comes with its own huge set of consequences (what with the High Council and everything and the ramifications of potentially igniting another Time War if they return), so saving them ISN'T just a pure victory even when he DOES get there.

Hell, to get into another universe in The Doctor's Wife he had to burn up rooms from the TARDIS - and that's even when he knew where they were going. In this case, they're folded into a pocket universe, and that pocket universe is a single frozen moment of time, so it's not like he'll be able to receive a signal pointing to where it is, like the Hypercube did in The Doctor's Wife. It's going to be a long, hard journey of exploration and something that only he can do.

This is why The Day of The Doctor is amazing, and why I still totally don't buy anyone who says that the pain of Nine, Ten, & Eleven or the audience connection to that is lessened by those events. There's never been a single example I've seen made where it just doesn't come across as that party not really grasping what the events of sealing away Gallifrey rather than burning it actually means.

Also, apparently the x-mas special will answer like, every plot thread ever (cracks in the universe, the Silence, Trenzalore, regen limit). I suspect it will be pretty crazy.

You've got Cybermen, Silence, Weeping Angels, & Daleks, Eleven attempting to not die as a warrior, what "Silence Will Fall" means (now that the question has been asked), finding out who snuck aboard the TARDIS to destroy it while the Doctor was trapped in the Pandorica, overcoming the Regeneration Limit, & probably something else as well. (I'm wondering what and how the grave that we saw at Trenzalore will play into it all, since Clara entered the Doctor's timestream and didn't see Capaldi, and if there's a way that this monument plays into it all).


X

 

[Roger]

Ok, I'm finally not posting from my phone, so I'm gonna get into this in a little bit more detail:



See, this is where I think that the people making this claim aren't really getting it. This type of response is treating it like they're all back on everything's ok with Gallifrey, but it's not. There's HOPE, but that's it.

In The Angels Take Manhattan, Amy & Rory are locked in another time that's inaccessible, but it didn't make the fact that they were trapped there any less tragic just because they were technically still alive when they were trapped. Gallifrey right now still doesn't exist in all of our time and space and it's frozen as well.

Yes, in a WAY, that's different than them being dead. To me that's potentially even more tragic when he talks about all the people that he's lost because of the Time War, and here's why: When it's 9/10/pre-DotD-11, he's sad because he was responsible for their deaths immediately upon using The Moment. However, looking at this in hind sight and in everything moving from this point onward from The Day of The Doctor, there's a different type of tragedy to it.

Now the Doctor KNOWS that somehow he can find them - and it's something he can't ever give up. This isn't something that he can just grow out of and move on from like he did when he'd burned Gallifrey (which we see with Eleven). For all intents and purposes, this is the still same as before but ALSO makes him even more responsible for their fates than he was before. Now the fate of Gallifrey rests on him being able to finish doing the RIGHT THING, rather than doing THE WRONG thing, and that's what's most important to me about how DotD affected his character.

• The immediate consequences of Gallifrey being gone from the current universe are the same as before - the Time Lords are all gone, and they were lost in the final day of the Time War. The Doctor rid the universe of them in order to end the Time War, and thus left himself as the last living Time Lord in all of time and space. He's all alone.

• The long-term consequences of everyone on Gallifrey SURVIVING all rests with the Doctor. If he doesn't find them - it's exactly the same as if he'd burned them out of time. THAT is his new motivation, and it's powerful BECAUSE of how painful it was before. He KNOWS that pain, and giving up on finding Gallifrey is the same as burning them all away all over again.

THIS is why I call it Schrödinger's Gallifrey: the survival of Gallifrey all depends on the Doctor finding and saving them - which comes with its own huge set of consequences (what with the High Council and everything and the ramifications of potentially igniting another Time War if they return), so saving them ISN'T just a pure victory even when he DOES get there.

Hell, to get into another universe in The Doctor's Wife he had to burn up rooms from the TARDIS - and that's even when he knew where they were going. In this case, they're folded into a pocket universe, and that pocket universe is a single frozen moment of time, so it's not like he'll be able to receive a signal pointing to where it is, like the Hypercube did in The Doctor's Wife. It's going to be a long, hard journey of exploration and something that only he can do.

This is why The Day of The Doctor is amazing, and why I still totally don't buy anyone who says that the pain of Nine, Ten, & Eleven or the audience connection to that is lessened by those events. There's never been a single example I've seen made where it just doesn't come across as that party not really grasping what the events of sealing away Gallifrey rather than burning it actually means.




You've got Cybermen, Silence, Weeping Angels, & Daleks, Eleven attempting to not die as a warrior, what "Silence Will Fall" means (now that the question has been asked), finding out who snuck aboard the TARDIS to destroy it while the Doctor was trapped in the Pandorica, overcoming the Regeneration Limit, & probably something else as well. (I'm wondering what and how the grave that we saw at Trenzalore will play into it all, since Clara entered the Doctor's timestream and didn't see Capaldi, and if there's a way that this monument plays into it all).


X

Okay first of all. YES, IT IS LESS TRAGIC. Amy and Rory managed to live out their lives together. That's much less tragic then if the Angels just killed them straight up right in front of the Doctor and River's eyes. I'm not asking for that to happen and it is still sad but technically alive because they couldn't hang out with the Doctor anymore? Please. There's no technically about it. They lived.

And yeah FOR THE ELEVENTH this is a change of quo, lot of new possibilities here. If it was just him and the War Doctor in this episode, that would be one thing. But he wasn't, this anniversary wasn't just about him and his not wating to be the warrior anymore. He has the Tenth reject the whole thing too.

"You say it's justified but it's a lie."

That's how Moffat has the Tenth define RTD's biggest addition to the Whoinverse.

And yeah, they still put their hands of the button. So what? By that logic Ninth ended the human race in Parting of the Ways, Tenth didn't need any help from the Master getting rid of Timelords and the Doctor has killed with every weapon he has ever held in his hands, which is a lot. Putting your hands/finger on the button/trigger doesn't equal making the choice. The Doctor tortures himself which such decisions all the time. Tenth DIDN'T make the choice. None of them ever did.

And i really disagree with the idea that if the Doctor doesn't find it's exactly the same.

They COULD be found by someone. It's not very likely, but it could still happen. All kinds of Doctor Who episodes revolve around other people stumbling on something impossible and then the Doctor getting involved afterwards. And the Eleventh didn't even realise that was his purpose until quite a bit later, so you can't tell me that this becoming their burden to bear was what they had figured in their heads going into it. Even if no one ever does find it for the rest of time those billions of children still didn't agonishingly burn alive.

And while again, they might address the problem of the bad Timelords at some point in the future, just the fact that the Eleventh goes looking for them tells us that they are not seen an impossible to deal with all or nothing threat to him. He'll deal with them when he comes to it. And that does harm the logic behind the Doctor ending the Timewar the way he did in the first place.

 

[Rassilon]

Both compelling arguments but I'm going to have to side with X on this one. I also back this path of the show because I think it he one thing that every good fiction should e is a commentary on our world. Anything else is escapism. We live in a society where it's considered to be morally justified to commit mass murder for the sake of "the greater good". I'm glad that the Doctor showed that the option to murder to prevent murder doesn't have to be the only choice.

I also think that the "last of his kind" motif is cliched and I'm glad to be rid of it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@Minato:

I always felt that Ten regrets burning all the timelords the whole time during his run even in the RTD era. I never thought that he was proud of it and that he WOULD have taken another option IF he'd had it - but he didn't have one. That attitude isn't at all different in DotD.

And it doesn't matter that they all put their hands on the button. That's not the choice. The WAR DOCTOR is the one who made the choice as soon as he told The Moment and disappeared from the Black Archive. THAT was the decision. He DID make that choice. Period. Proof is that that event was time locked - Ten even says so. It's The Moment who brings the both of them there because she's presenting them with the other option.

That's when they lay out The Doctor's character progression from Eight up 'til now. Eight stopped being the Doctor to be a warrior. The War Doctor was the Warrior. (Nine was the PTSD soldier trying to save everyone from the pain he felt), Ten was the hero who became hell bent on winning: "Timelord Victorious" - and then it's back down to his current incarnation Eleven. They're all one person and more than any of those other things, in this moment, he wants to be the Doctor - but what does that mean?

Moffats entire run with Eleven has been all about defining what it means to be the Doctor. Eight says that being a good man and being the Doctor are the same thing (reference to A Good Man Goes to War). It's the idea that the Doctor ISN'T someone so infamous that armies turn and run at the mention of his name, or that, "in the language of the forest people 'Doctor' means 'mighty warrior'." leading up to The Name of the Doctor that first gave us the hint about what being the Doctor means to HIMSELF.

He says that the War Doctor is the one who broke the promise, which we now know is, "Never cruel or cowardly, never give up, never give in." The War Doctor gave up the name The Doctor from the very start of his regeneration, and in the actions that he took during the Time War. I don't think that there's ever a point where the Doctor EVER feels that burning 2.47 billion Gallifreyan children out of time was the right answer, or that it EVER defined who he was AS THE DOCTOR.

That, to me, is always bothersome when people see that event as something that defines who he is and is important to his character - as the Doctor. Yes, it strongly defined the path that he walked and who he became because of it. That's covered in DotD when the War Doctor doesn't regret the decision because he knows he becomes a better person for those consequences - and all of that development is still intact as Ryu and I have extensively detailed. However, I've NEVER thought of the Doctor as someone who's ALWAYS going to be the man to destroy billions of innocents to save the greater good. That's NEVER been something I attributed as being intrinsic to his character, and that's why as both a personal and universal consequence Schrödinger's Gallifrey isn't immediately different and is more meaningful in the long-term than a Gallifrey burned from time.


While there remains an infinitesimally small chance that someone else might be able to find Gallifrey (with the TARDIS being the last of her kind as well as having performed the calculations to freeze Gallifrey it stands to reason that it would be able to find it, wven though it's still exceptionally difficult even with its capabilities. Plus, all other time travelling devices shown are shoddy by comparison, so the possibility of something else stumbling on a single slice of space/time in a pocket dimension in another universe, and successfully bringing it back into our universe is well... yeah), that's also ignoring what this means for the NEXT 50 years of Doctor Who.

The Moment is STILL a defining point in Doctor Who, and now it's something that is just as powerful looking forward FROM it as BACK at it. The hope that DotD presented makes the end of the time war and the elimination of Gallifrey more than just a tragic battlefield landmark - which it still is - it turns it into a goal and something to achieve and overcome, which is far more than it was as an act of xenocide, especially when it comes to the Doctor's own story.


Also- as for him saving them now, even with the High Council, this is VERY different. He dealt with both them AND the Daleks before. He was also dealing with the High Council ending time BECAUSE of the Time War. Saving Gallifrey afterwards presents the possibility of another time war, yes BUT he can now deal with the High Council in a way that he couldn't during the Moment. He clearly has issues with them still as End of Time proves and he DOESN'T want them to return, but the innocents of Gallifrey still need to be saved NOW. The context of why he sealed all of Gallifrey to end the Time War hasn't changed, because dealing with the High Council when unsealing Gallifrey and not also having a billion billion Daleks attempting to destroy it as they attempt to end time is a COMPLETELY different issue and can be dealt with in a completely different way because of it. The Daleks were just as bad then, and eliminating BOTH was important to the survival of the Universe. The Daleks have already survived but no longer time travel, so while they hate the Timelords, and could go to war with them, it's currently unlikely that they'll spark another time war unless they get that technology Gallifrey now has hope of returning, and when it does, the context of dealing with the situation will be entirely different than that of the last day of the Time War.


X

 

[Roger]

I don't think that there's ever a point where the Doctor EVER feels that burning 2.47 billion Gallifreyan children out of time was the right answer, or that it EVER defined who he was AS THE DOCTOR.

That, to me, is always bothersome when people see that event as something that defines who he is and is important to his character - as the Doctor. Yes, it strongly defined the path that he walked and who he became because of it. That's covered in DotD when the War Doctor doesn't regret the decision because he knows he becomes a better person for those consequences - and all of that development is still intact as Ryu and I have extensively detailed. However, I've NEVER thought of the Doctor as someone who's ALWAYS going to be the man to destroy billions of innocents to save the greater good. That's NEVER been something I attributed as being intrinsic to his character, and that's why as both a personal and universal consequence Schrödinger's Gallifrey isn't immediately different and is more meaningful in the long-term than a Gallifrey burned from time.

Well I disagree that he never thought it was the right answer, War Doctor maybe bred for war but he maintains he did what he did without choice, I don't he saw a better answer. And I don't think the Doctor is a man who ALWAYS makes that choice. But the Doctor we know is a man who had to live with having made that choice once.

That he didn't have any good solutions to the Timewar is a reminder of the limitation that there are things even the Doctor can't do.

Course, I don't know if having his presence shock the Daleks in increasing their forces tenfold and shooting themselves in the back in is really that big a step forwards for Eleven. Kinda of EXACTLY the kind of thing River was talking about.

He clearly has issues with them still as End of Time proves and he DOESN'T want them to return, but the innocents of Gallifrey still need to be saved NOW. The context of why he sealed all of Gallifrey to end the Time War hasn't changed, because dealing with the High Council when unsealing Gallifrey and not also having a billion billion Daleks attempting to destroy it as they attempt to end time is a COMPLETELY different issue and can be dealt with in a completely different way because of it. The Daleks were just as bad then, and eliminating BOTH was important to the survival of the Universe. The Daleks have already survived but no longer time travel, so while they hate the Timelords, and could go to war with them, it's currently unlikely that they'll spark another time war unless they get that technology Gallifrey now has hope of returning, and when it does, the context of dealing with the situation will be entirely different than that of the last day of the Time War.

In End Of Time yes, I really don't get that vibe in Day of the Doctor. Saving Gallifrey brings out nothing but unreserved glee in Ten and Eleven here.

And is that a thing now? Daleks can't travel in time? Seemed able too in Opening of the Pandorica.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well I disagree that he never thought it was the right answer, War Doctor maybe bred for war but he maintains he did what he did without choice, I don't he saw a better answer. And I don't think the Doctor is a man who ALWAYS makes that choice. But the Doctor we know is a man who had to live with having made that choice once.

That he didn't have any good solutions to the Timewar is a reminder of the limitation that there are things even the Doctor can't do.

Course, I don't know if having his presence shock the Daleks in increasing their forces tenfold and shooting themselves in the back in is really that big a step forwards for Eleven. Kinda of EXACTLY the kind of thing River was talking about.

Right - he didn't have a choice, and he honestly didn't have a better answer on his own. There wasn't anything else that he could've done on his own. That's still a decision that - even if it was the correct one and the only option - could still be seen as a mistake the same way that nuking the Black Archive was a mistake. They all used the options that were available to them. The Time War still is the example of where the Doctor couldn't find a good solution to save everyone. Preserving Gallifrey is just trying to find a way to start over and actually find that solution, since it couldn't be done in the moment.

There were 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Daleks assaulting Gallifrey, not BECAUSE the Doctor showed up in all 13 of his forms, but because it was their final assault against Gallifrey (hence it being the final day of the Time War and that's why all the Time Lords and Daleks were all in one place). That the Daleks were all there wasn't at all reactionary to what was done in The Day of the Doctor. (The bit where someone says, "the Daleks would've brought reinforcements" or whatever was an offhanded comment about them having an unexpected advantage by having more than just one Doctor).

In End Of Time yes, I really don't get that vibe in Day of the Doctor. Saving Gallifrey brings out nothing but unreserved glee in Ten and Eleven here.

One would assume that you'd have unreserved glee at the prospect of suddenly realizing that you'd be able to save tens of billions of your own people. If he was actually SAVING them, I'd expect a different reaction.

And is that a thing now? Daleks can't travel in time? Seemed able too in Opening of the Pandorica.

In The Pandorica Opens they're just hit by the light from the Pandorica, I don't recall anything about them traveling through time. In old episodes like Time Chase they essentially possessed time machines that could follow the Doctor and the TARDIS throughout time & space. That's why the Time War was basically the Timelords and Daleks writing, re-writing, and over-writing battles over and over and over and over again. (Naruto reference, it's like Izanagi with the Uchiha but with Izanami).


Related, we also haven't found out where the Silence got their time machine - which will likely be revealed at Christmas as well, since it's more than likely how they were able to destroy the TARDIS.

Spoiler: SPEAKING OF WHICH - DID ANYONE ELSE NOTICE THIS IN DOTD?

X

 

[Novus]

I think if it was isolated I would have been fine with it.

It's only because we have had this same ending a dozen times already, and every time we get this ending there are usually no consequences for the Doctor preventing the inevitable.
You need to have at least one ending where everything doesn't end well. I think RTD handled this better even though Moffat is the better storyteller.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Aaaaand now I'm properly on to the Christmas episode speculation. I'm planning on re-watching Series 5-7 over the next couple weeks to fully refresh my memory, but this's what I've got so far: http://xsoldier.tumblr.com/post/68331723660/the-time-of-the-doctor-questions-speculation

Also, here's a full list of references in the 50th, for anyone interested: http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/11/doctor-who-50th-anniversary/


X

 

[Ⓐaron]

I wouldn't say everything in Moffat episodes ends up well for everyone. There's a reason he and not Davies is in this image, for example:

Amy and Rory will be the first to tell you that not everything always ends swimmingly in Moffat episodes. Or they would be, if they weren't stuck in 1930s Manhattan.

 

[Tennyo]

Spoiler: I HAVE SO MANY CONFLICTED FEELINGS

i can't

 

[Tennyo]

Also,

Spoiler

rofl so perf <3

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Amy and Rory will be the first to tell you that not everything always ends swimmingly in Moffat episodes.

Because happily living out their lives together is so tragic?

Anyway, I got a link about this and thought I would come offer my two pence:

Also, here's some pretty awesome Head Canon about DotD. It's something that I think that Tenny will love, and may even be something that Tres would('ve) appreciate(d).

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/doctor-who-headcanon-spoilers-for-the-50th-1471353766

That I could not only accept with open arms but would have probably loved. For his greatest regret to be undone by virtue of his character (i.e. the devotion Rose couldn't help but to feel for him) would have been beautiful.

Maybe Bad Wolf Rose had some power over the Reapers since they live in the Time Vortex that empowered her in the first place. Certainly she would have known from past experience that they would have to be addressed if she started messing with time. She even created a fixed point in bringing Jack back to life.

I'll also agree that this makes a lot more sense than The Moment just randomly selecting the form of a companion The War Doctor wouldn't know. That Bad Wolf let Ten and Eleven pass through the time lock says a lot on its own.

Now, the question is this: Will Grand Moffat Tarkin confirm all this?

Both compelling arguments but I'm going to have to side with X on this one. I also back this path of the show because I think it he one thing that every good fiction should e is a commentary on our world. Anything else is escapism. We live in a society where it's considered to be morally justified to commit mass murder for the sake of "the greater good". I'm glad that the Doctor showed that the option to murder to prevent murder doesn't have to be the only choice.

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, as a commentary on reality, not having to make an unfair, impossible choice is more realistic? I'd have to disagree with that very, very much based on just the choices I've had to make in my life, and I never held the fate of the universe in my hands. Someone who so frequently does would inevitably be making these kinds of choices.

I always felt that Ten regrets burning all the timelords the whole time during his run even in the RTD era. I never thought that he was proud of it and that he WOULD have taken another option IF he'd had it - but he didn't have one. That attitude isn't at all different in DotD.

Of course he regrets it. He tells Donna that he would go back and save them if he could.

That's when they lay out The Doctor's character progression from Eight up 'til now. Eight stopped being the Doctor to be a warrior. The War Doctor was the Warrior. (Nine was the PTSD soldier trying to save everyone from the pain he felt), Ten was the hero who became hell bent on winning: "Timelord Victorious" - and then it's back down to his current incarnation Eleven. They're all one person and more than any of those other things, in this moment, he wants to be the Doctor - but what does that mean?

Moffats entire run with Eleven has been all about defining what it means to be the Doctor. Eight says that being a good man and being the Doctor are the same thing (reference to A Good Man Goes to War). It's the idea that the Doctor ISN'T someone so infamous that armies turn and run at the mention of his name, or that, "in the language of the forest people 'Doctor' means 'mighty warrior'." leading up to The Name of the Doctor that first gave us the hint about what being the Doctor means to HIMSELF.

He says that the War Doctor is the one who broke the promise, which we now know is, "Never cruel or cowardly, never give up, never give in." The War Doctor gave up the name The Doctor from the very start of his regeneration, and in the actions that he took during the Time War. I don't think that there's ever a point where the Doctor EVER feels that burning 2.47 billion Gallifreyan children out of time was the right answer, or that it EVER defined who he was AS THE DOCTOR.

If burning Gallifrey would be the same as breaking the promise, then what does that make of Ten burning Pompeii? Eleven doesn't seem to feel that way about Ten, and Ten doesn't feel that way about himself.

It wasn't cowardly, but it was certainly cruel. And, hell, what about when he murdered the Racnoss Empress's children while she begged him to show mercy?

We may be able to headcanon a way out for Gallifrey not burning (an elegant and lovely solution at that; and I thank you for it), but I still hold Moffat doesn't get the character based on what you're saying. The Warrior is part of who he is. You can't define "The Doctor" without The Oncoming Storm, The Bringer of Darkness and the man whose name will make an army flee.

That, to me, is always bothersome when people see that event as something that defines who he is and is important to his character - as the Doctor. Yes, it strongly defined the path that he walked and who he became because of it. That's covered in DotD when the War Doctor doesn't regret the decision because he knows he becomes a better person for those consequences - and all of that development is still intact as Ryu and I have extensively detailed. However, I've NEVER thought of the Doctor as someone who's ALWAYS going to be the man to destroy billions of innocents to save the greater good.

That is exactly who he is, though. Only when he has no other option, of course, but he's not going to say, "Well, I don't want this on my conscience, so I'm going to let the whole of creation go rot."

Nine was going to sacrifice everyone on Earth to stop the Daleks until Rose intervened. Ten sacrificed Pompeii to save Earth. The War Doctor -- and Ten and Eleven -- was going to sacrifice Gallifrey to save the universe.

The "monster" who chooses who lives and who dies (to reference "Voyage of the Damned") while never really getting to make the choice he wants to make is part of who The Doctor is. It really is intrinsic.



Again, I feel a lot better about all this with the possibility that Gallifrey did originally burn and Rose later changed it (like 90% of my anger melted away instantly), but I still contend that Moffat should have never been put in charge of the show. He has good moments, but not good days.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

That I could not only accept with open arms but would have probably loved. For his greatest regret to be undone by virtue of his character (i.e. the devotion Rose couldn't help but to feel for him) would have been beautiful.

Maybe Bad Wolf Rose had some power over the Reapers since they live in the Time Vortex that empowered her in the first place. Certainly she would have known from past experience that they would have to be addressed if she started messing with time. She even created a fixed point in bringing Jack back to life.

I'll also agree that this makes a lot more sense than The Moment just randomly selecting the form of a companion The War Doctor wouldn't know. That Bad Wolf let Ten and Eleven pass through the time lock says a lot on its own.

Now, the question is this: Will Grand Moffat Tarkin confirm all this?

Laughing way harder than I should at "Grant Moffat Tarkin" and I'm QUITE glad that you like the little bit of Headcanon.

If burning Gallifrey would be the same as breaking the promise, then what does that make of Ten burning Pompeii? Eleven doesn't seem to feel that way about Ten, and Ten doesn't feel that way about himself.

It wasn't cowardly, but it was certainly cruel. And, hell, what about when he murdered the Racnoss Empress's children while she begged him to show mercy?

We may be able to headcanon a way out for Gallifrey not burning (an elegant and lovely solution at that; and I thank you for it), but I still hold Moffat doesn't get the character based on what you're saying. The Warrior is part of who he is. You can't define "The Doctor" without The Oncoming Storm, The Bringer of Darkness and the man whose name will make an army flee.

Breaking the promise wasn't just the act of burning Gallifrey though. It's the whole of his regeneration that literally start by him uttering the words, "Doctor, No More." and becoming (essentially) a soldier in the Time War. By the same token, it's my own little headcanon that the REASON he regenerated into the Ninth Doctor upon leaving after in his TARDIS is because he said, "-but for now, in this moment, I am the Doctor again." which ended the whole of his non-Doctor regeneration cycle triggered by the Sisterhood of Karn, and he literally changed back into the Doctor because of it. Not only that, but he changed back into the Doctor who was guided towards the person that he needed to find - Rose Tyler.

The warrior, Bringer of Darkness, the Oncoming Storm, the Timelord Victorious, is a part of who he WAS, but not of who he IS, and I feel that that's the biggest message that DotD is attempting to bring across.

That is exactly who he is, though. Only when he has no other option, of course, but he's not going to say, "Well, I don't want this on my conscience, so I'm going to let the whole of creation go rot."

Nine was going to sacrifice everyone on Earth to stop the Daleks until Rose intervened. Ten sacrificed Pompeii to save Earth. The War Doctor -- and Ten and Eleven -- was going to sacrifice Gallifrey to save the universe.

The "monster" who chooses who lives and who dies (to reference "Voyage of the Damned") while never really getting to make the choice he wants to make is part of who The Doctor is. It really is intrinsic.

I really can't help but wondering whether or not his new regeneration looking like Caecilius is meant to serve as a visual reminder to himself about those sorts of decisions, and those fixed points in time, and how he's choosing to deal with those situations from here on out. I can't help but feel that The Time of the Doctor is going to be an example of what happens when he's confronted with a scenario. They're all thematically linked with the "The ___ of the Doctor" titles, so I can't imagine that this isn't the answer to that amongst many many other things, especially because the Silence have been doing all sorts of unspeakable things to attempt to destroy him and his friends.


X

 

[Tennyo]

12 Types of Doctor Who fans.

Tres, you will like #8. Probably #7 as well.

I feel like I could be a couple of those.

 

[Roger]

In The Pandorica Opens they're just hit by the light from the Pandorica, I don't recall anything about them traveling through time. In old episodes like Time Chase they essentially possessed time machines that could follow the Doctor and the TARDIS throughout time & space. That's why the Time War was basically the Timelords and Daleks writing, re-writing, and over-writing battles over and over and over and over again. (Naruto reference, it's like Izanagi with the Uchiha but with Izanami).

The Psycho Ranger Daleks begin in WWII and then go back to their own time (or at least that's what the RTD's Daleks said before getting destroyed. Then they show up during the days of the Roman empire (and the Alliance brought the Pandorica and the Cybermen there even earlier), then they show up in Rory and Amy's present. If they'd been around in the universe for the past 2,000 years, the universe would be mostly destroyed I'd say. I mean, 400 years have passed for the 11th too so he could've spent a lot of that fighting his own little Timewar but..

And yeah, the bit about Rose is my headcanon too.

I mean, every reference to the Bad Wolf (other then Turn Left) had it's own in universe reason for showing up. This is no different. Timelord technology is just a little more advanced then what Bad Wolf usually has at it's disposal around Rose and the Doctor. And certainly if Bad Wolf's job is putting Doctor and Rose on the path that leads to S1 finale then this is where you start.

 

[Carlie]

I wouldn't say everything in Moffat episodes ends up well for everyone. There's a reason he and not Davies is in this image, for example:

Amy and Rory will be the first to tell you that not everything always ends swimmingly in Moffat episodes. Or they would be, if they weren't stuck in 1930s Manhattan.

Like Tres said Amy and Rory got to spend the rest of their lives happy together, hardly what I would call tragic. Also as I couldn't stand Amy I was pretty happy I didn't had put up with her any longer, Rory was great and all but Moffat is still not even remotely close to Martin and Whedon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He's not as close to those two as Davies, and Davies was still a long way off.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@Tenny: #1, #3, #8, #10.



X

 

[Tennyo]

Spoiler: Cat Nurse