Elden Ring

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
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Having completed the game for a while now, I realized this is the best game I played on the last 10 years at least and the last truly outstanding one was Bloodborne; From Software is slowly cementing itself as my favorite company. The Shadow of the Erdtree hype is through the roof.

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Also, I was meaning to ask @X-SOLDIER...

Whom is the Scarlet Blossom right at the entrance of the Site of Grace leading to Malenia? The one where you find the Traveler's set?
It really is surprising just how much everything about the game has stuck with me in the same way. Like, I feel like I enjoy it DIFFERENTLY than the way in which I enjoy basically any other game I can think of.


I believe that the Scarlet Aeonia there is likely intended to be a bloom of one of Malenia's daughters. While we meet 5 of them (Millicent, Mary, Maureen, Amy, & Polyanna), that's not ever stated to be all the daughters of hers that there were. Additionally, Gowry seems to be familiar with this sort of rebirth process with her daughters, and so it's possible that the flower here belonged to a predecessor daughter to Millicent & the others. Millicent wears a version of the Traveller's set and the blooms form when one of the daughters' physical bodies falls and is reborn as one of the Valkyries – hence Malenia being naked in her Phase 2 aside from her prosthetics that are made of gold & interconnected into her body directly just like the Miquella's Needle that's inside her.

Insofar as I'm aware it doesn't correspond to any of the specific named Valkyries that we know of.

That being said, Melina does wear a version of this set with a green cloak, and there's an inherent relationship between the flowers & fire. The Erdtree Guardian Garb (Fullbloom) increases the HP recovery of the Flask of Crimson Tears but makes you far more susceptible to Fire damage, whereas Malenia's Great Rune reduces the HP recovery of the Flask of Crimson Tears and allows you to recover HP through siphoning life from others Bloodborne-style. With Melina no longer having a body and also being the Kindling Maiden who's meant to set fire to the Erdtree, it's HIGHLY probable that back when the lore encompassed "Miranda, the first maiden of the Flower Crucible" who is referred to in the Miranda's Prayer item that Melina uses to trigger the flower's falling light attack, this could have been intended to be her – especially since, unlike Millicent (whose armor set exists but like Miranda's Prayer isn't player obtainable), Melina doesn't have an explicit armor set in the game and the Traveller's Set is the closest thing.

At this point though, it feels fairly unlikely that this particular angle of the narrative will end up being followed any more than Asimi's removed questline or any of the other things that were intentionally not made available to the player, and Shadow of the Erdtree will likely recontextualize those story elements into a form that matches how the lore evolved – leaving it likely that this was just a previous Valkyrie whose name we don't know similar to how little we know about the fates of many of the Finger Maidens in the game.




X :neo:
 
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wander

‪‫‬‭ ‮
I did two playthroughs after it came out, first one trying to go in blind and not following any guides - fission mailed, ended up with the
LET CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD!11
ending, second one a fuck it, I'll cheese it doing magic because Comet Azure is OP and hillarious, but with that one went down Ranni's rabbithole and it was a great experience, :monster:.

Love how they were able to craft a "choose your own adventure" type of game without the choices being obvious choices like e.g. modern day interactive novel video games, and for the most part avoiding points of no return / you can no longer achieve this ending. The downside there is that you either need a video explaining things or a lot of red yarn to connect all the dots though, and there's A Lot of dots to connect.

Anyway I'll probably do a Faith build when the DLC lands, it seems faith builds get the more interesting and diverse spells, whereas glintstone magic mainly has a dozen variations of simple projectile spells, :monster:
Yeah I liked how the game didn't tell you what to do for divergent endings. There is joy in discovery.

I'd play it more if the PvP was more than L2 spam. I'm thinking of doing another run just for the sake of a condensed LP.

also holy shit sup yop. X-Soldier. good to see y'all again.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Yeah I liked how the game didn't tell you what to do for divergent endings. There is joy in discovery.

I'd play it more if the PvP was more than L2 spam. I'm thinking of doing another run just for the sake of a condensed LP.

also holy shit sup yop. X-Soldier. good to see y'all again.

y halo thar, nice ta see you as well :mon:

I think that the reason PvP hasn't ever really been that intriguing to me in the Souls games (aside from vastly preferring PvE type games) is that it predicates itself around the community self-defining a sort of expected fair for duels like the Level 120/150 in Elden Ring which also has a tendency to bring along a lot of the tryhard elitism because it's about maximizing a very specific understanding of the game's combat interactions & attack reads, where the idea of using other tools like Summons & Magic are generally frowned upon – because they are ways to help players circumvent that part of the challenge.

That's why I think that emphasizing that Elden Ring is technically a Souls game, but you have a veritable cornucopia of tools to address those challenges in ways where they're not NEARLY as reliant upon that skill set as something like Bloodborne can make a huge difference in who is willing to approach that. Then this inevitably means that the exact same type of min-max-focused gamer types are going to discover that L2 spam is stupidly effective in countering the more reading-and-counter combat, and so PvP becomes less fun and thus the cycle of those types being even more opposed to those other game elements increases and the cycle continues.

I don't know how much the Colosseums and its restrictions can address things like that, as I think that it's just the fundamental difficulty in attempting to communicate what type of shared experience you want from an opponent – which requires trust, but expecting an opponent will deceive you is something that you HAVE to expect and thus it's very difficult to have that work out even when a lot of the community is SURPRISINGLY capable at creating those sorts of constraints external to the game's own tools.

A condensed LP run seems like a solid way to de-rust on the game, and it'd be fun ta hear about! :monster:



X :neo:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Now my PVP/Farming marathon comes to a close... that alone added +100h of playtime.

Absolutely loved PVPing in Bloodborne and Dark Souls III and that didn't change here. Each invasion brings its own challenges and opportunities to explore, which makes it unpredictable and that's why its so engaging to me; even in the middle of L2 spam you can find your way to victory if you are focused enough, baiting invaders helps tremendously. High Poise is an absolute must here, so I had Bull Goat's Talisman all the time. Recorded a lot of invasions so I'll be sharing some of them soon.

I have an itch of building a STR/FTH character next, focusing on Crucible incantations, but that's for the DLC.

Luckily, by PVPing I also got tons of runes (with cooperators sometimes dropping 300k or 400k), and now I'm stocked and ready to craft the new DLC weapons as soon as I get them.

Last shot I took (Endgame spoiler):
ELDEN RING™_20240409151217.jpg
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
So, Shadow of the Erdtree was genuinely impressive.

The overlapping verticality feels a lot more like the more constrained Souls series level design, whilst maintaining the open world elements of the main game. The only things that I would consider flaws about that are first time experience where the upper Rauh Ruins & Jagged Peak don't have their own map fragments, and that the maps to both of those are contained in the lower regions (which you can't get to from the upper areas). This meant that I made it all the way to both Romina & Bayle the Dread totally blind and with a prolific amount of messages along the lines of, "Victory... but still no map." along the way to let me know I wasn't alone in the experience. That and that there were a few pathways into lower regions that are unexpectedly obtuse, as well as how there's a very arbitrary boundary around the outside of Shadow Keep that triggers the shattering of Miquella's Rune and changes a number of the NPC relationships just for exploring.

The rest went really smoothly, and I think that there were some extremely unique experiences like the Abyssal Woods being a deeply sinister and oppressive environment that reinforced a sense of fear & helplessness to the presence of the Madness. As expected there's still a lot of early thematic design here & there, lending itself towards a lot of the elements in the DLC being designed well in advance of the main game's completion, even if there were changes made along the way. Personally, I really liked the implementation of the story-driven NPC participation in some of the boss fights, as that kind of thing felt exceptionally satisfying in making it feel like a more deeply layered story that connects to you as a character, and set up for a lot more interesting relationships between everyone drawn to the Realm of Shadow.

I got through the DLC on my game that was completed and then circled back to do DLC+ to get all the things from the Boss Remembrances (I'm on NG+3 or 4 now in my playthrough). Even without Igon's absolutely iconic monologuing, Bayle is far and away my favourite fight. There're also a number of impressive vistas and locations that gave that same sense of wondrous exploration that the base game did, but with a feeling that was often strange and new. The use of the main theme harp leitmotif in the Shaman Village being isolated out from everything else still hits particularly poignantly to the way it tells bits & pieces of Marika's story.

While I have been gradually poking in and making my way through Bloodborne since as a way to chew on some more of the design themes and poke around at the overlapping visual design themes, the far more constrained nature of that game's layout is a lot more difficult for me to put time into, as it's very cognitively draining (especially in the Chalice Dungeons with their lack of background music), whereas Elden Ring is always exceptionally relaxing to explore for me since I can flex into or out of those more constrained environments into just a meandering exploration at basically any interval, which isn't possible when a setting is more fixed into a hub world and its intertwined levels.

If anything, I've found that I'm definitely the sort of player who'd vastly prefer if I had the option to just to be a god-mode-tourist for a lot of games these days, as I'm far less drawn to a potential challenge of the mechanics as I am drawn in by exploring the details of the environments.

Now my PVP/Farming marathon comes to a close... that alone added +100h of playtime.

Absolutely loved PVPing in Bloodborne and Dark Souls III and that didn't change here. Each invasion brings its own challenges and opportunities to explore, which makes it unpredictable and that's why its so engaging to me; even in the middle of L2 spam you can find your way to victory if you are focused enough, baiting invaders helps tremendously. High Poise is an absolute must here, so I had Bull Goat's Talisman all the time. Recorded a lot of invasions so I'll be sharing some of them soon.

I have an itch of building a STR/FTH character next, focusing on Crucible incantations, but that's for the DLC.

Luckily, by PVPing I also got tons of runes (with cooperators sometimes dropping 300k or 400k), and now I'm stocked and ready to craft the new DLC weapons as soon as I get them.

Last shot I took (Endgame spoiler):

I do dig the Dragon Halberd and Ice Lightning is still one of the most interesting and under-represented things in the game As a heavy armor look that's a good-lookin' kit. I'm rather curious if you found anything new in the DLC that you particularly were drawn to. The Winged Serpent Helm is has the coolest look as a knight helm, and for Poise, the Greaves of Solitude have become the defacto ones I moved to from the Fire Prelate Greaves, as they don't get as enormous if I'm swapping the chest armor I'm using. While there're a boatload of cool weapons, I really like wandering whilst two-handing Rellana's Twinblades and the Beast-Repellant Torch on my back, as it's got a neat attack string, really cool and diverse L2 abilities, as well as meaning that Wolves will leave you be which fits the Carian vibe. That being said – Bolt of Gransax is still absurdly god-tier for the PvE stuff.

I am quite curious in more perspectives on things from the PvP & more combat-focused side of things.



X :neo:
 
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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
So, Shadow of the Erdtree was genuinely impressive.

The overlapping verticality feels a lot more like the more constrained Souls series level design, whilst maintaining the open world elements of the main game. The only things that I would consider flaws about that are first time experience where the upper Rauh Ruins & Jagged Peak don't have their own map fragments, and that the maps to both of those are contained in the lower regions (which you can't get to from the upper areas). This meant that I made it all the way to both Romina & Bayle the Dread totally blind and with a prolific amount of messages along the lines of, "Victory... but still no map." along the way to let me know I wasn't alone in the experience. That and that there were a few pathways into lower regions that are unexpectedly obtuse, as well as how there's a very arbitrary boundary around the outside of Shadow Keep that triggers the shattering of Miquella's Rune and changes a number of the NPC relationships just for exploring.

The rest went really smoothly, and I think that there were some extremely unique experiences like the Abyssal Woods being a deeply sinister and oppressive environment that reinforced a sense of fear & helplessness to the presence of the Madness. As expected there's still a lot of early thematic design here & there, lending itself towards a lot of the elements in the DLC being designed well in advance of the main game's completion, even if there were changes made along the way. Personally, I really liked the implementation of the story-driven NPC participation in some of the boss fights, as that kind of thing felt exceptionally satisfying in making it feel like a more deeply layered story that connects to you as a character, and set up for a lot more interesting relationships between everyone drawn to the Realm of Shadow.

I got through the DLC on my game that was completed and then circled back to do DLC+ to get all the things from the Boss Remembrances (I'm on NG+3 or 4 now in my playthrough). Even without Igon's absolutely iconic monologuing, Bayle is far and away my favourite fight. There're also a number of impressive vistas and locations that gave that same sense of wondrous exploration that the base game did, but with a feeling that was often strange and new. The use of the main theme harp leitmotif in the Shaman Village being isolated out from everything else still hits particularly poignantly to the way it tells bits & pieces of Marika's story.

While I have been gradually poking in and making my way through Bloodborne since as a way to chew on some more of the design themes and poke around at the overlapping visual design themes, the far more constrained nature of that game's layout is a lot more difficult for me to put time into, as it's very cognitively draining (especially in the Chalice Dungeons with their lack of background music), whereas Elden Ring is always exceptionally relaxing to explore for me since I can flex into or out of those more constrained environments into just a meandering exploration at basically any interval, which isn't possible when a setting is more fixed into a hub world and its intertwined levels.

If anything, I've found that I'm definitely the sort of player who'd vastly prefer if I had the option to just to be a god-mode-tourist for a lot of games these days, as I'm far less drawn to a potential challenge of the mechanics as I am drawn in by exploring the details of the environments.



I do dig the Dragon Halberd and Ice Lightning is still one of the most interesting and under-represented things in the game As a heavy armor look that's a good-lookin' kit. I'm rather curious if you found anything new in the DLC that you particularly were drawn to. The Winged Serpent Helm is has the coolest look as a knight helm, and for Poise, the Greaves of Solitude have become the defacto ones I moved to from the Fire Prelate Greaves, as they don't get as enormous if I'm swapping the chest armor I'm using. While there're a boatload of cool weapons, I really like wandering whilst two-handing Rellana's Twinblades and the Beast-Repellant Torch on my back, as it's got a neat attack string, really cool and diverse L2 abilities, as well as meaning that Wolves will leave you be which fits the Carian vibe. That being said – Bolt of Gransax is still absurdly god-tier for the PvE stuff.

I am quite curious in more perspectives on things from the PvP & more combat-focused side of things.



X :neo:
I consumed (or was consumed by) the Shadow of the Erdtree for this entire month; can't wait to share my thoughts on it, but just like you I was completely blown away by the quality and amount of content. +100 hours into it (at least 6h of those getting punched by the final boss 2nd phase).

Calling it a DLC is a disservice, it's a glorified expansion (a full game for half the price), which delivers the best Elden Ring experience at times.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I consumed (or was consumed by) the Shadow of the Erdtree for this entire month; can't wait to share my thoughts on it, but just like you I was completely blown away by the quality and amount of content. +100 hours into it (at least 6h of those getting punched by the final boss 2nd phase).

Calling it a DLC is a disservice, it's a glorified expansion (a full game for half the price), which delivers the best Elden Ring experience at times.
Yeah, the Phase 2 of the final boss was an especially brutal one that's wholly deserving as being the game's ultimate challenge. I think my favourite thing about that boss fights is that the boss's "launching a barrage at you from the sky" attack has a narrow window where you can use the Rennala's Full Moon or Ranni's Dark Moon sorcery as a full counter because the projectiles are all magical in nature, so it'll pull them in, nullify them, and then hit to deal the magic vulnerability status. Discovering that in my initial attempts was monumentally satisfying, and just spoiler tagging a clip of it from one of my attempts in my first time through.


One of the interesting things that I've been wondering about that isn't ever clarified, but always feels incredibly plausible is how Miquella's core motivations are heavily shaped into a sort of child-like naïve perspective that's because of the power that he commands. With the ability to effortlessly turn anyone's heart to his side the way that the Bewitching Branches do to enemies in the base game, he doesn't really seem to understand the difference between achieving peace vs. facilitating the submission of someone else's desires with their love of him.

What's interesting about this is that it DOES stop conflict between them because they always prioritize his desires above their own, but it's existentially terrifying to look back on once those affected have overcome that influence and are able to prioritize their individual wants again, especially because it presents the ability to cast moral judgement on the actions from someone who doesn't implicitly condone them – which is something that Miquella doesn't really seem to understand as he's always held the power to just... win – much in the same way that the Two Fingers or Greater Will asserts itself over the Elden Lord.

A loss of free will is peace, but only superficially – and the only people who could notice the difference no longer have the agency to. It's why I think that all of the NPCs have really interesting reactions to being faced with both enforced alignment, but also the loss of that protection.



There's a bunch of noteworthy BERSERK & Bloodborne parallels that dig into the core of the moral framework that I find deeply fascinating. In case you're interested in an... exceptionally overly sizeable chunk of tl;dr along with some relevant Japanese historical information and other things that interconnect into all that as a sort of snapshot of the web of thematic analysis that I've been mulling over lately and how that lives in my brain, I figured I'd just give a go at laying a bunch of this into a text form for once.

One of the things in BERSERK that makes the Band of the Hawk's fate so difficult is that they all chose to join and collectively try to help Griffith achieve his dream of establishing his own kingdom. They prioritized the future that he envisioned, and while they were all drawn in by his charisma, Griffith carried the weight of knowing that every death was the loss of the ambitions of someone under his command, which drove him to be a superior commander.

The only times he didn't maintain objectivity on that dream was when Guts was at risk, and the only one who departed from that shared collective ambition for Griffith's dream to prioritize his own was also Guts – which ultimately leads to their downfall & the torture that places Griffith in the position where he's forced to give up that dream forever, and make all the countless deaths of his comrades along the way meaningless, or sacrifice all of them for the power to achieve the power that they were all pledged to giving their lives for... –and so he chooses power and prioritizes that dream over Guts' safety and in doing so becomes both a god-like saviour & a terrifying monster all entangled together, where that same level of love that has always drawn others to his side is even more magnified... but he ALWAYS still offers choice, even if he only offers it once because that decision is an ultimatum the same way it was when Guts chose to leave by force in a way that makes reconciliation seemingly impossible.

It's why Rickert slaps Griffith & refuses to stay in Falconia because of the sacrifice of the Hawks caught up in the Eclipse, but also why he doesn't allow any of the countless loyal demonic subjects to harm Rickert for that choice. Even though Rickert is no longer subject to his protection in the city the moment he refuses it, a choice between protection & death is compulsion, so he's maintaining the space for that choice to be made openly.

By that metric in Shadow of the Erdtree, it's MUCH easier to see that Miquella is naïve to how peoples' hearts work free of his compulsion, which explains why he carelessly cast away his own love with St. Trina, and doesn't recognize the existential agony that will have to accompany being given the power of a god. To quote her, "Make Miquella stop. Don't turn the poor thing into a god. Godhood would be Miquella's prison. A caged divinity, is beyond saving. You must kill Miquella. Grant him forgiveness." because he would be trapped needing to absolutely oppose anyone who didn't love him... or be left knowing that because he wasn't allowing anyone to make that choice – the reality would be that he was actually the only individual will that still existed in the entire world, and what he'd done was no different than erasing everyone other than himself.

This is actually the core struggle that the Great Ones face in Bloodborne, because everything that exists in their dreams is ultimately just themselves. If the Great Ones have a child, either the child's will survives and they are orphaned and in existential anguish, or the parent is left grieving the stillbirth of their offspring in that same lonely, isolated anguish. That's why the Moon Presence chooses Gehrman as its surrogate, and why he's in anguish within the dream – he's all alone and his only companionship is with a lifeless doll who's only made present in his thoughts, which is identical to the Great Ones' plight.

As a key exploration of the existential trauma of the loss of individual will when one becomes a supreme ruler in BERSERK was heavily informed by Marie Antoinette's struggles depicted in the Rose of Versailles, and Bloodborne followed the same structure set up in Brotherhood of the Wolf, those three endings are important to look at in how they frame choices around that fate around the French Revolution (especially things like the Cult of the Supreme Being and the invention or ascension to a god through reason and eschewing of Christ-like saviour figures). The "Yharnam Sunrise" is essentially the death of Robespierre – the one responsible for the revolution and the downfall of the system is ultimately beheaded, while the "Honoring Wishes" is freeing those in power trapped by that fate by beheading them and becoming the surrogate to endure that pain in their stead, while "Childhood's Beginning" is becoming a Great One and embodying existence as your own dream (in reference to the scifi book Childhood's End). There isn't a solution here – they're merely different forms of the same cage.

In BERSERK & Elden Ring, that's the reason that both Griffith & Miquella build off of the "Resurrected Christ" parallels, with Elden Ring having the Greater Will as an externalized ultimate deity that shapes the world according to its design of Order. Those function as a way to show that the shining eternal kingdom of a true ruler god like both King Arthur & Christ represent in Western Fantasy is itself a contradiction that cannot deliver what it offers without fundamentally erasing free will, or appearing to be a terrifyingly all-powerful apocalyptic demon to any who refuse the choice to accept that only path to salvation. Japan experienced this in multiple forms underneath the various forced unifications under the Japanese Empire – most notably when Buddhism arrived and repressed & forcibly syncretized Shinto practices as a means to have unification with less bloodshed, which lead to State Shinto forming Imperial Japan where Buddhism & Christianity were oppressed, and the events of WWII leading to Japan's downfall & reformation under America.

While the Biblical Revelation apocalypse story used Babylon as a way to comment on at-the-time contemporary Imperial Rome, that symbolism is also key when examining the Crusades as religious fanaticism driven to exterminate non-believers in an identical way to how there is a ruthless loyalty with the Needle Knights that's hiding a truth of being unbelievably bloody & totalitarian towards any who MIGHT betray them. The Arthurian influences with the Roundtable Hold & gathering of knights under Leda match this, but there's another layer to it. A lot of post-WWII Japanese media has similarly used Tokyo & Babylon parallels that are HEAVILY present in Shadow of the Erdtree, but in particular with regard to the Hornsent as the people of the Tower – which was built to literally reach heaven like the Tower of Babel was, but in this context to serve as a Divine Gateway, ultimately leading to a horrible downfall under the new saviour deity – Marika the Eternal.

As Leda states, "Long ago, Queen Marika commanded Sir Messmer to purge the tower folk. A cleansing by fire. It’s no wonder the hornsent holds the Erdtree in contempt. That aside, man is by nature a creature of conquest. And in this regard, the tower folk are no different. They were never saints. They just happened to be on the losing side of a war. But it’s still a wretched shame." emphasizing very heavily why everything in the Realm of Shadow reflect the inconvenient pains & warcrimes that were hidden away post-WWII. Most notably to me are the mass graves and the hornsent all being blackened with the prolific presence of the Furnace Golems with the burning vortices of raining fire who can only be defeated by forcing their flame to burn itself out all as overt parallels to the firebombing of Tokyo during Operation MEETINGHOUSE (warning as the details are genuinely haunting).

This is why Marika exists in the base game as a permanent "Crucified Christ" who isn't resurrected, and that the new Elden Lord has to be one of the Tarnished who looks upon a land that cast out and rejected it, rather than allowing the eternal kingdom to feed itself from within. It's why Miquella's Rule will never escape the Land of Shadow, and acquiescing to that post-self-sacrifice Christ figure to take over the Golden Order is just an immediate game over of "Heart Stolen" during that boss fight.

While the player can look at the inner theological justifications to rebuilding the Golden Order in the forms of the various Mending Runes to resurrect Marika... those are ultimately just following that same path to permanent division. That's what the Genpei War solidified in Japanese history between the victorious Minamoto clan & the ousted Taira clan – and is why those reflections are central to Godwyn as a perfect heir whose untimely death & establishment of undeath are explored by the Golden Order's Hunters & Those Who Live in Death are the key examinations of the Mending Runes. While Malekith will initially admonish the Tarnished upon defeat by stating, "Witless Tarnished... Why covet Destined Death? To kill what?" collecting sufficient Deathroot for him as Gurranq leads to a more informed admission as Marika's Shadow that stands against doing that, "Forgive me, Marika... The Golden Order... cannot be restored."

Essentially it's rejecting that existential framework of an eternally perfect kingdom of supreme order as being a paradise, and only becoming a cage that necessitates a system of oppression or control that is ultimately self-defeating as the Runes are scars and, "These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods." which as they grow deeper, "Solemn duty weighs upon the one beholden; not unlike a gnawing curse from which there is no deliverance." very aptly describing the schism between Radagon & Marika trying to fracture & repair the Elden Ring, made even more poignant in how Fia's Mending Rune is literally her offspring with Godwyn. It's a "child" that's the embodiment of a concept that will establish a whole system of rule over everything... but the Runes themselves are a flawed power.

"Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth. One was cursed with eternal childhood, and the other harbored rot within." As such, Miquella as a "Resurrected Christ" follows that same theme as he's directly born of a singular divinity reflecting the conception offspring of the Great Ones in Bloodborne ultimately as the possession of a surrogate or the inadvertent reproduction of themselves. Miquella's themes are all interconnected into dreams and through St. Trina it's emphasizing the same "Awaken Above Ground" concepts from Bloodborne of dreams & death being indistinguishable for an Eternal being. Unlike the other Demigods who all have a mortal parent from whom they derive their individual traits, the Empyreans are just a singular divinity, and thus they're assigned Shadows to control them in the form of wolves, which is why it's worth looking at how those interconnections arose.

The Elden Ring itself is the amalgamate of all vast combination of various Great Runes combined together into the Greater Will's Golden Order, and this follows the same pattern with Bloodborne's Caryll Runes as symbols that represent the concept of words from the Great Ones. Thus, it's no surprise that the Rune for Formless Oedon which represents: "The Great One Oedon, lacking form, exists only in voice, and is symbolised by this rune. Those who memorize it enjoy a larger supply of Quicksilver Bullets. Human or no, the oozing blood is a medium of the highest grade, and the essence of the formless Great One, Oedon. Both Oedon, and his inadvertent worshippers, surreptitiously seek the precious blood." and that Formless Oedon's Rune literally contains Marika's Rune within it when the Gold reveals itself in its completely realized form. Her history with Marika's Mischief allowing you to physically transform, and the Mimic Tears allowing rebirth connect to her own representation as being both herself and Radagon and the statue that captures their essence in the capital of Leyndell also reflects this.

The themes with this Rune being blood that eventually reveals gold within it also reflects what's recounted in the story of the Beginning in Shadow of the Erdtree when it comes to how the Great Ones create progeny with particular chosen: The seduction & the betrayal. It was an affair from which Gold arose, and so too was Shadow Born. Especially given that when Marika's crucified within the Erdtree, the lower portion of her rune is detached, and is crimson rather than gold, and speared through her like the Lance of Longinus. Formless Oedon's Rune also is about Blood, and whilst Morgott is the steward of the Throne in the absence of Queen Marika the Eternal... his twin Brother Mohg worships the Formless Mother, who is symbolized by three upwards gashes – the non-gold portion of the Formless Oedon Caryll Rune. Additionally, in the 1.0 version of Elden Ring the Nightmaiden & Swordstress Puppets that summons those Silver Tear beings of the Eternal City used to just state that it "summons the spirit of a descendant of Marika."

This symbolism and theme was clearly conceived during development in The Old Hunters, as the Nightmare Grand Cathedral is the resting place of Laurence, the First Vicar is before a statue of a headless woman standing in front of a tree and pouring something into his open mouth... which is identical to the Erdtree's Favor talisman depicting Queen Marika (and is also the only time that her longer braid is shown over her left shoulder). Moreso than that is the Skull of Laurence, "first vicar of the Healing Church. In reality he became the first cleric beast, and his human skull only exists within the Nightmare. The skull is a symbol of Laurence's past, and what he failed to protect. He is destined to seek his skull, but even if he found it, it could never restore his memories." Thus, Gurranq the Beast Clergyman also being Maliketh the Black Blade who failed to protect the Rune of Destined Death from being stolen, and being the Shadow used by the Two Fingers to control Queen Marika is incredibly overt as a shared parallel, but that extends further.

Bloodborne's Cleric Beasts are heavily identified by their horns which hold a key theme in Shadow of the Erdtree, as well as the Ancestral Worshippers in the base game. Whereas in Elden Ring, the Serpent consumes beings physically (HP restoration on kill), the Ancestral Spirits' horns allow them to be reborn through others' spirits (FP restoration on kill), and the boss fight is all about them regenerating while draining the spiritual animals around them and gaining those same traits. Horns symbolize that externalized possession to resurrect the dead, and the Curseblades' weapons were all about bloodletting, Long ago, this was employed by the ascetics who strove to become tutelary deities as a ritualistic object in their self-flagellating dances. To further emphasize this their masks state, "A mask affixed with a crown of tangled horns, worn by those who would invoke divinity. Divine invocation heightens the dexterity of the wearer, but causes the blessing of the Erdtree to become nauseating, reducing the restorative effect of drinking from a flask of sacred tears. Focus is also troubled by wearing this mask." Focus protects against two things – Sleep & Madness... the two key features of the Hunter's Nightmare full of blood & beasts, and the presence of Divine horns also diminishes the effectiveness of the restoration from the Erdtree's Favor which the Marika statue is pouring out into Laurence's mouth.

So, when it comes to the concepts here in the juxtaposition between the Tree Maiden's Blessing & the Horned Divine Beast, it's important to look at how Bloodborne has two transformative Oath Runes – both of which are rather meta in their depiction. While the Caryll Rune "Beast" (獣) depicts a Facehugger that is still active, whereas the Oath Rune "Embrace" (抱擁) shows it curled up the way the they look when they've hugged/embraced a victim with the tail curled, and also how they appear after they've implanted the Chestburster into the host – hence the transformative nature along with the Beast Claw weapon which turns you into the bestial werewolf-like beast. The other is the "Milkweed" (苗床) which are just stylistic representation of H.P. Lovecraft's initials. However, this last one has a number of overlaps to Elden Ring that are a bit more obscured by untranslatable connections, and easier to see by looking at both languages.

The English description, "A Caryll Rune envisioned by Adeline, patient of the Research Hall. A transcription of the inhumane, sticky whispers that reveal the nature of a celestial attendant. Those who take this oath become a lumenwood that peers towards the sky, feeding phantasms in its luscious bed. Phantasms guide us, and lead to further discoveries." – which hints at rather pivotal overlaps that are delivered but aren't as obvious unless you also know that the term translated as "Lumenwood" (星輪) in Japanese is built of two kanji which literally mean "Star" (星) & "Ring" (輪), and connects to a plant of some kind as it's (星輪の幹) becoming the trunk/stem of the Star-Ring. And the Elden Stars incantation states, "It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden STAR bearing a BEAST into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden RING."

It's also not just that... the description explicitly that this Lumenwood "peers into the sky" (空仰ぐ), and there is a very particular type of plant that is known for doing that – a Sunflower, which are found throughout the Lands Between, but explicitly the Scadutree Avatar – is a continually resurrecting Sunflower with literal eyes, whose remembrance states that, "The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree." So, the thematic links to both the Beast & Lumenwood are present, but there's still more. The Milkweed name "苗床" is "Seedbed" which is the identical term used for Dung-Eater's questline in Elden Ring for spreading his Seedbed Curse, that infects everyone in every generation with Omen Horns in his own Mending Rune seeking to undo a taboo by passing it to everyone, which overlooks the danger of why that's a taboo in the first place. The Horns not only diminish the power of the Erdtree's healing, but it is a painful and horrid physical affliction... which spreads through Marika's offspring as easily as any other, and likely even moreso given her bloodline's affinity for binding with others, and all of the Golden Order suffering from that lineage and this schism.

Whilst the Tower practiced worship of Divinity through possession, like the Tower's Divine Beast possessing the Sculpted Keepers... Marika seems to have literally BECOME the divinity as she is a god from that point in some capacity. We know from Bonny Village items like the Tooth Whip that the shaman/miko of Marika's village has flesh that bonded uniquely to other beings. This is why they were butchered and placed into Jars in order to purify the criminals they were intertwined with, and we even see their bodies being merged with trees, and the golden trees in Enir-Ilim also have humanoid forms fully embedded within them. It's also why Marika is perfect for attempting to give birth to the child of a god, but like with Bloodborne, could just as easily become the god herself. The Elden Ring is literally housed inside her body, using it like a shell. It's only once Radagon breaks that the roles are reversed and the Elden Beast takes form and wields their fused bodies as the Sacred Relic Sword. Their nature entangles the Golden Order's eternal nature into any and every form they interconnect with, allowing for Godrick's Grafting, just as much as Rykard's fusion with the Serpent-God, and all the other horrors that grow from and into the children of the Erdtree.

Bloodborne's Fishing Hamlet Priest states, "Lay the curse of blood upon them, and their children, and their children's children, for evermore. Each wretched birth will plunge each child into a lifetime of misery. Mercy, for the poor, wizened child...Let the pungence of Kos cling, like a mother's devotion..." but with that Milkweed Oath Rune equipped he adds, "Curse here, curse there. A curse for he, and she, why care. A bottomless curse, a bottomless sea, source of all greatness, all things that be. Listen for the baneful chants. Weep with them, as one in trance. And weep with us, oh, weep with us... Listen for the baneful chants. A call to the bloodless, wherever they be. A call to the bloodless, wherever they be. Fix your ears, to hear our call." and he'll give you an Accursed Brew – a skull which has been forcibly searched for eyes... identical to the means of acquiring Runes in Elden Ring come from the eyes of the deceased, often seen in skulls haplessly strewn about landscape in both the Lands Between & the Realm of Shadow. Showing that likely none of the Mending Runes for the Golden Order are a solution, just spreading a different curse, similar to the addiction to power from consuming Draconic Hearts, or Blood-Drunk Hunters.

Dung Eater's Seedbed Curse even has an associated transformation in Shadow of the Erdtree in the form of the Lamenter's Mask – a transformation that even the people of the Tower who worshipped the divine appearance of horns shunned and locked away, "This transformation tallies with the state of a denizen of paradise, but the people of the tower denied and hid it from the world. In their foolishness, they viewed true bliss with deep fear." and the Lamenter boss will mass clone itself while hiding. Any clone that survives when the Lamenter reappears adds a curse on you. If 7 curses are applied, you will instantly die. To stop the spread of a curse, you can't just go after the source – you have to destroy the spread as well... which is critical to understand what the Subterranean Shunning-Ground below Leyndell is, as the Frenzied Flame cannot be safely interacted with.

That madness spreads & annihilates, and while the Merchants' plight is a terrible one, that type of quarantine is necessary. The issue is that Runes in and of themselves are their own form of curse that creates that pain. The Rune Arc shape of Marika's crucifixion having Golden Arc Incantations of the Tower, "The arc resembles the barb, a known symbol of coercive questioning." just like those on Jori the Inquisitor's Barbed Spear-Staff, and the Greatsword of Damnation used to execute Midra who is contained and forced to endure that suffering past his breaking point... exactly. like. Marika. That type of eternal power cannot exist safely... but neither can its inverse. The madness of the Lord of Chaos that erases the lines that distinguish individuals is like erasing the separation of puppet & puppeteer. Thus why as soon as the Three Fingers touches you, it IS you... and that Annihilation is driven by the same Frenzied madness that the Great Ones suffer in Bloodborne, from having a non-dual relationship to their own offspring like Arianna & her child... except that a Lord of Frenzied Flame will eradicate the whole of existence in its entirety.

It is a genuine anti-Christ figure masquerading as a saviour, representing a perfect reflection of eternity as utter non-existence, fueled by ascribing purpose to one's own inescapable suffering. It's no coincidence that Shabriri's iconography and those themes heavily parallel Shoko Asahara & Aum Shinrikyo who were responsible for the Tokyo Sarin Gas terrorist attacks, which was catalyzed by an inversion of Japanese nationalism. Thus it's no surprise that he possesses Yura's body who died failing in his attempt to save the legacy of someone he loved, and that pain is exactly how that type of grudge & curse form. Tolerating that type of apocalyptic intolerance only allows the influence and that intolerance to grow, and this is that same type of ideological curse that emerges from those where suffering breeds a hatred that feels justified... but accomplishes nothing but fueling greater hatred in any action that it takes. That's why the Leyndell soldiers near Volcano Manor have descended into that madness from the ceaseless fighting and are cannibalizing one another. It is a flame that feeds on burning itself as fuel, which is why you have to sacrifice yourself as kindling for it, and how it preys upon the noble & vulnerable looking to save their beloved maidens from harm, only to corrupt potential Elden Lords like Vyke into madness.

This danger is why this takes the properties of the Lovecraftian King in Yellow & Yellow Sign with the Lord of Chaos, where ANY form of exposure is total risk. Absolute quarantine is the only way to deal with it, and thus the only reversal is utilizing Miquella's Needle to implant his power of absolute coercion into your physical form to align the Outer God's will to your specific body by embedding the needle into your flesh at a location that is removed from localized space-time. The only other option is that intolerance of intolerance is reflected... which just gets the atrocities committed in the Lands of Shadow being justified by the force with enough power to portray the thing that they hate as a threat, because a practice that may have once been noble becomes conflated with torture & oppression with the imbalance of the power dynamic is eternally enshrined.

As perverse & terrible as the butchering that was done to Marika's people was... it DID actually turn the once-criminal individuals stuffed into living jars into noble warriors who were granted a hidden village of their own to live at peace amongst flowers, and to be tended to by Potentates in a strange fusion of a reconciliation between Bonny Village & the Shaman Village... only to once again be hunted & slaughtered for material from their bodies to be used, this time by the Perfumers while the soft kindness of the Potentates meant that they were vulnerable.

This is what finally brings everything to the final details, which is how those dynamics all come together to portray the version of an opposite to BOTH a Christ figure AND an Anti-Christ figure... which is to embrace mortality and allow Marika the Eternal to die, but also allow yourself to meet Destined Death. Return the experience of joy & pain to be something shared collectively rather than forced onto others, because it is impermanent. In essence reject the idea of the entire system of Eternal kingdoms outright.

This is what emphasizes the elements about Ranni's Age of Stars in juxtaposition to that entire dynamic, as well as in a foil to Miquella's own vision. Ranni is also an Empyrean. She eschews her Great Rune, abandons her flesh, and gives up her claim to the throne. Those all mirror the path Miquella takes... but there's a key difference. Ranni's alliances are all made by CHOICE, not through compulsion. You join her because you choose to, not because she forces you to. When you pledge to her cause and the deed is done, she releases you from service, which is also why she tells you to tell Iji & Blaidd that she loves them, as their nature to her will compel them to follow her without true agency of choice. Blaidd manages to resist enough to never betray her from that attachment, but still goes insane and you have to kill him for the same reason that you killed Darriwill & Radahn – an eternity imprisoned as a monster isn't a just end to someone you cared for. A noble, destined death is what the Radahn festival was all about and why Miquella's machinations are the antithesis of that... because he's just a child who always gets whatever he wants and believes it's always for the best.

When Miquella abandoned St. Trina, he removed the love and companionship that cared and understood what protection he needed. He manipulated Malenia to kill Radahn for him, and Radahn held the stars themselves in place to avoid becoming his consort. He manipulated Mohg to take him from the Haligtree and gave him visions of a new dynasty, and left his physical vessel such that Mohg could never revive him as a god and bring about the Mohgwyn Dynasty. He then used Mohg's corpse as a vessel to attach Radahn's soul to after he'd been killed before he became a total mindless beast, because he needed a Lord as a vessel to bind himself to in order to ascend to true Divinity. He wants to become the puppeteer, not free the puppets.

Ranni's entire purpose is a puppet cutting its own strings and ending that relationship – hence why Seluvis dies when the Puppets have their own agency and they turn on Pidia. It's why she allows Marika to perish in peace, and makes an oath to every living being & soul, as well as only turns violence against her own Two Fingers, and nothing else. You fundamentally cannot defeat her, but you don't have to join her on her journey into the Stars. Her path is one of the freedom of choice that comes from not knowing that there is a god. No ability to form a certainty of righteous divinity means that the power structures left in the world will be impermanent, and only guided for 1000 years under the moon in ways that the cannot perceive from that place exactly like the dark side of the moon.

It's an impermanent choice, and it's one not unlike what Marika made to escape the overwhelming oppression that she was under. Like Count Ymir mentions of Marika's mother & of Metyr herself, the flaw is that they were ALL damaged and in pain that shaped them, and their constant presence in overcoming that conflict further solidified that. Ranni removes herself from everything aside from only slaying the Two Fingers that she alone had the power to oppose thanks to you. While the Aliens of the Stars are as far removed from the Beasts of the Earth as possible, Bloodborne is very clear the cold detachment & burning obsessions are equally dangerous states for the Mind or the Heart.

Thus the danger inherent to Ranni making that journey alone is the same cold, darkness of the Lunar relationship that we first visited with the Moon Presence in Bloodborne – the fear, doubt, & loneliness of that isolation. She's a doll who has cut off all of the things that make her human aside from her individual will. If she accepts Destined Death, then the yearning for a surrogate child or companion will lead this back down an identically familiar path... but there's an intentional parallel to the "Childhood's Beginning" ending of Bloodborne, where the doll takes your Great One form off of the ground, cradles you in her arms, and asks if you're cold – especially as her attire states, "A deep love for the doll can be surmised by the fine craftsmanship of this article, and the care with which it was kept. It borderlines on mania, and exudes a slight warmth."

You bring Ranni the love and the warmth of companionship of someone who chose that path willingly while knowing that it comes at a cost, and made the choice to pay that cost anyway. That situation not only ensures that the being who's ascending to a divinity isn't alone the way that the Great Ones are, but also that she's not experiencing the same trauma that her mother did when Radagon abandoned her. Her path is one that's not as likely to be amplifying or perpetuating those past struggles under the Golden Order to become permanent trauma that repeat the way Marika's did in syncretizing with the beliefs of the Tower to replace it, because Ranni's eschews those things altogether.

It's ensuring that as Elden Lord don't continue to suffer being maidenless in isolation and aren't left with the existential loss that drove Vyke & Bernahl away from the path of Elden Lord into into the path of Madness or being a Recusant unable to accept that pain, but it's finding a way to heal from the loss. The Mending Runes for Marika appear to do that, but it's also ignoring that Marika's other self in Radagon's attempts to do that have failed, and her shadow in Malekith also opposes the idea, as well as the promise that Master Hewg commits himself to ensuring that he creates a weapon capable of slaying a god.

Allowing her to die is honoring a choice that she wants, as is a Tarnished coming to claim the throne in whatever way they deem fit, and she can't facilitate them on her own any more than Ranni could. Conversely, it's also not mistaking Lord of Chaos killing Marika being a path of justice that solves things, as that's just releasing all of the protections of order and indiscriminately unleashing perpetual death... which is why Melina vows to bring Destined Death to the Lord of Chaos to protect order, even while she facilitates the destruction of the Erdtree. Ranni's path is the atheist approach to a Christ & Anti-Christ conflict, which is what the historic amplification of generational trauma from civil war becomes as two sides can't view one another with objectivity.

While the Arthurian love triangle of Arthur, Lancelot, & Guinevere looked at that balance, and that heavily informed BERSERK setting up the dynamic between Griffith, Guts, & Casca the intertwined nature of their relationships don't allow for the role of a player character to interact with those paths as individual agents. Blaidd's & Radahn's vulnerabilities are an overt parallel to Guts and the idea of him as Griffith's possession is why I expect that the thematic elements with Godwyn that are included in the setting of Shadow of the Erdtree don't use that Taira & Minamoto historical civil war dynamic to explore the dangers of a beloved messianic figure coming into power or returning from the dead in a messianic resurrection parallel, as those modern links are much easier to see, but also they build off of the thematic constructs of the Souls-connected mythos itself.

As the DLC just adds in more supporting context, rather than creating a new ending for the game, digging into all of those overlaps and visual design conveyances has been really captivating to contemplate.


While there's a lot of other highly interesting things with the new Dragon Heart transformations, those... have a lot of pieces where the core design elements are linked REALLY heavily to themes in 1.0 content from Elden Ring that seem to have been redesigned a lot in the story framework. Since the DLC doesn't have content from that, some bits and pieces of trying to unpack that feel extremely speculative, so they'd probably merit their own meandering through various details if at some point anyone feels the compulsion to wade through even more walls of text. :mon:



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