Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
Funny, While I was waiting for replies on this thread I came across an LTD article on this very site, that I hadn't noticed before!

https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/7/

That was written back in 2009. If you have about 15 to 30 mins of free time. It is one hell of a read. The points made are rock solid and backed up by official references. It was written by Makoeyes987

@Makoeyes987 If you ever get the time you should update that bad boy since the Remake came out and offers more details on both ships. I know it must have taken you a long time to articulate everything that you did. I really enjoyed the read, and I might have to quote you on some those things in the future!
I think that's the article that caused me to be here, I happened to run into it and thought it was well written, then decided to check out the forums.
I had heard of TLS before but for some reason never really ventured to check it out.
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
You know how lucky SE was that Zack/Aerith became as popular as it did? That gave them an out.

I think they noticed this considering they went through all that trouble to write Zack into FF7R.

You should, on a second playthrough, be able to tell that there is more to his interactions with both girls, with Tifa that there is an underlying longing, and a more deep seated love that is expressed more subtly, and with Aerith that despite the more obvious flirtatiousness, that it's more of a crush in comparison, and that there is SOMETHING weird about it. In other words, if knowing the plot doesn't re-contextualize his interactions with both of them, the game has failed imo.

Interesting observation. I agree that there's a longing toward Tifa, in fact upon 2nd playthrough, I felt like Cloud behaved like he was crushing hard on Tifa while he was just generally trying to act cool in front of Aerith. Considering the developers said that Cloud is essentially behaving like a 17 year old, his actions does feel kinda like a teenager trying to act cool in general and hiding his crush for Tifa. I know people like to point out the scene where Cloud gets a flashback of Tifa and Aerith asks him if Tifa is his girlfriend which he responded "No". I wouldn't have said yes if someone asked me about my crush either if I didn't know her feelings for me. Cloud technically doesn't actually know if Tifa likes him or not.

Another scene is Aerith's resolution where she tells Cloud not to fall in love with her and Cloud responds something like "Don't I have a say in this?" and people use that to suggest he's actually interested in Aerith. That response to me felt more like he wanted to keep his cool demeanor suggesting that he should have a say simply because it's a pretty one sided, slightly presumptuous statement to think that he likes her. I did feel scenes where Aerith was playful and borderline flirting with Cloud but I didn't particularly feel Cloud reciprocating the flirt. The high five isn't a flirt to me.

An interesting question that just popped into my head. Anyone ever wonder why Tifa's eyes are Red? That is an interesting choice of color for someone who doesn't have an ounce of evil in her heart?

I never really thought about this but I thought it is a nice contrast to Cloud's mako blue eyes.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
That LTD Article was written by Tres, a.k.a. The Twilight Mexican. He was previously known to the fandom as Squall_of_Seed. He used to make helpful walkthrough articles back at---if my memory serves me right--- Gamefaqs (I used to follow his articles back then).

His articles are partly why I'm imbittered about the LTD. Tres made excellent analytical articles about the game (and others) and his LTD artticles are only a few, and yet all his other non-LTD articles, no matter how superb they are--- are ultimately forgotten to oblivion and outshined by the LTD. Why? Because LTD is apparently a more serious business. No one even talks about Tres as a FAQ writer anymore, nor are his old non-LTD articles get referenced.

The LTD needs to get shitposted to non-existence.

/rant

Edit: Don't get me wrong though. I'm glad that his LTD articles still get much attention even after all these years, and it's great that they caused fans to come here in TLS. I just hate that his other writings get ignored, and how his articulate and clinical LTD articles are what branded Tres as a 'biased Cloti' to the more extreme Clerith fandom, despite that what he did was only present an analysis.
 
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DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
That LTD Article was written by Tres, a.k.a. The Twilight Mexican. He was previously known to the fandom as Squall_of_Seed. He used to make helpful walkthrough articles back at---if my memory serves me right--- Gamefaqs (I used to follow his articles back then).

His articles are partly why I'm imbittered about the LTD. Tres made excellent analytical articles about the game (and others) and his LTD artticles are only a few, and yet all his other non-LTD articles, no matter how superb they are--- are ultimately forgotten to oblivion and outshined by the LTD. Why? Because LTD is apparently a more serious business. No one even talks about Tres as a FAQ writer anymore, nor are his old non-LTD articles get referenced.

The LTD needs to get shitposted to non-existence.

/rant

not that surprising, content comes from disagreement, when everyone agrees with what you are saying, there is never a time when it needs to be referenced. It's read once, that's the end of it, but when people disagree, a back and forth starts.
There is nearly never a disagreement about themes or simple facts, facts are facts, and the more themes and interesting ways you discover to look at something people love, the happier they'll be, everyone want it to be true, so there is no disagreement.

But when you write about 2 things that are opposite to each other, well, thats a different story.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
That LTD Article was written by Tres, a.k.a. The Twilight Mexican. He was previously known to the fandom as Squall_of_Seed. He used to make helpful walkthrough articles back at---if my memory serves me right--- Gamefaqs (I used to follow his articles back then).

His articles are partly why I'm imbittered about the LTD. Tres made excellent analytical articles about the game (and others) and his LTD artticles are only a few, and yet all his other non-LTD articles, no matter how superb they are--- are ultimately forgotten to oblivion and outshined by the LTD. Why? Because LTD is apparently a more serious business. No one even talks about Tres as a FAQ writer anymore, nor are his old non-LTD articles get referenced.

The LTD needs to get shitposted to non-existence.

/rant


Hey, thanks for that! Well than credit where credit is due I suppose. Why is Makoeyes name on it though? He made such great points that if I knew about it a month ago or so, when I first joined I would have used some of those references and talking points when it got really heated in the LTD and the crapstorm that emerged within my first couple of hours on the forum. Talk about breaking someone in. :lol:

Well Hindsight is 20/20 is suppose.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
@DutchDread
I get that, but it doesn't make me any less imbittered. It's more about how he got unfairly branded as a biased shipper, despite that his resume only has about 5% LTD in them.

@Graymouse
The analysis itself was by Tres, but I think it was Mako who wrote it into an article form here in TLS.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
@DutchDread
I get that, but it doesn't make me any less imbittered. It's more about how he got unfairly branded as a biased shipper, despite that his resume only has about 5% LTD in them.

I don't understand. Are the Cloud X Aerith's scared of analytical facts? That is crazy. Usually, if I am presented with a fact I would admit that I was wrong and try and "attack" from a different angle. I am beginning to understand things now, with why some many people don't like the LTD and it feels like you have to walk on egg shells in there.

Don't get me wrong, I know what I did and I deserved it but, man o man. I am glad that I came at a more calmer period. Thanks for the history lesson.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Funny, While I was waiting for replies on this thread I came across an LTD article on this very site, that I hadn't noticed before!

https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/7/

That was written back in 2009. If you have about 15 to 30 mins of free time. It is one hell of a read. The points made are rock solid and backed up by official references. It was written by Makoeyes987

@Makoeyes987 If you ever get the time you should update that bad boy since the Remake came out and offers more details on both ships. I know it must have taken you a long time to articulate everything that you did. I really enjoyed the read, and I might have to quote you on some those things in the future!

Haha, that LTD analysis is famous in the fandom. As well as this one, which is an extension/expansion of that one:

https://thelifestream.net/reviews-analysis/dilly-dally-shilly-shally-an-ltd-analysis/

I think anyone who's remotely interested in the LTD discussion has read it at some point. There are some comments in there that I really like.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
The LTD history runs deep and full of 'hate', borne out of some twisted tribalistic rivalry over the years. It probably doesn't help the fact that there had been a lot of mudslinging from both sides since forever ago. I'm honestly not surprised the oldest and most extreme Clerith shippers (the likes of Anastar, aka Blankbeat) cling onto what little thread of hope they have for their ship, because there had been a lot of bad blood between both fandoms over the years. To a few, the LTD has ceased to be a matter of facts; it's about "who was right all along".

Honestly, it's sad. That's why I truly want for this LTD to conclusively end (although personally, I genuinely think it has ended a long time ago). So that everyone can finally move on from it.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
The LTD history runs deep and full of 'hate', borne out of some twisted tribalistic rivalry over the years. It probably doesn't help the fact that there had been a lot of mudslinging from both sides since forever ago. I'm honestly not surprised the oldest and most extreme Clerith shippers (the likes of Anastar, aka Blankbeat) cling onto what little thread of hope they have for their ship, because there had been a lot of bad blood between both fandoms over the years. To a few, the LTD has ceased to be a matter of facts; it's about "who was right all along".

Honestly, it's sad. That's why I truly want for this LTD to conclusively end (although personally, I genuinely think it has ended a long time ago). So that everyone can finally move on from it.

I agree 100%.


It has been since all the reference material came out long ago.

But admit, the "battles" are still fun... or maybe not?
 

Vortigern

Pro Adventurer
That LTD Article was written by Tres, a.k.a. The Twilight Mexican. He was previously known to the fandom as Squall_of_Seed. He used to make helpful walkthrough articles back at---if my memory serves me right--- Gamefaqs (I used to follow his articles back then).

His articles are partly why I'm imbittered about the LTD. Tres made excellent analytical articles about the game (and others) and his LTD artticles are only a few, and yet all his other non-LTD articles, no matter how superb they are--- are ultimately forgotten to oblivion and outshined by the LTD. Why? Because LTD is apparently a more serious business. No one even talks about Tres as a FAQ writer anymore, nor are his old non-LTD articles get referenced.

The LTD needs to get shitposted to non-existence.

/rant

Edit: Don't get me wrong though. I'm glad that his LTD articles still get much attention even after all these years, and it's great that they caused fans to come here in TLS. I just hate that his other writings get ignored, and how his articulate and clinical LTD articles are what branded Tres as a 'biased Cloti' to the more extreme Clerith fandom, despite that what he did was only present an analysis.

I can see why that would be draining and disappointing to be remembered for one controversial project amidst a life's work that has stretched for far longer and to still be hounded about it by frothing extremists. For what little it is worth, I devoured and delighted at how in-depth Tres' research was as I read through it over 1-2 weeks last fall. It shined light on aspects of Cloti that I never realized and reinforced my love and belief in that pairing while also bringing me around to appreciating and accepting the place that Clerith holds on Cloud's journey.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
I can see why that would be draining and disappointing to be remembered for one controversial project amidst a life's work that has stretched for far longer and to still be hounded about it by frothing extremists. For what little it is worth, I devoured and delighted at how in-depth Tres' research was as I read through it over 1-2 weeks last fall. It shined light on aspects of Cloti that I never realized and reinforced my love and belief in that pairing while also bringing me around to appreciating and accepting the place that Clerith holds on Cloud's journey.

Definitely true. His articles are a delight to read for sure. And I legit am glad his LTD articles still get attention because they deserve it for how well-written and well-substantiated they are. They are some of the best (if not the best already) LTD articles I've ever read.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread

Perfect XD




Haha, that LTD analysis is famous in the fandom. As well as this one, which is an extension/expansion of that one:

https://thelifestream.net/reviews-analysis/dilly-dally-shilly-shally-an-ltd-analysis/

I think anyone who's remotely interested in the LTD discussion has read it at some point. There are some comments in there that I really like.

How old is the Dilly Dally analysis btw? Because that's one of the things that bothered me while reading the initial one, I noticed that it was old and wasn't sure if the information was still reliable or had since perhaps gotten outdated. Since I see these are still referenced, and the people who wrote them are still active, I am more confident that it's still relatively up to date.

But when looking for compilations of all arguments and pieces of evidence for and against a certain point, it's nice to be sure that you're not missing 5+ years of development. (Especially now that it's all current again).
 

Vortigern

Pro Adventurer
How old is the Dilly Dally analysis btw? Because that's one of the things that bothered me while reading the initial one, I noticed that it was old and wasn't sure if the information was still reliable or had since perhaps gotten outdated. Since I see these are still referenced, and the people who wrote them are still active, I am more confident that it's still relatively up to date.

But when looking for compilations of all arguments and pieces of evidence for and against a certain point, it's nice to be sure that you're not missing 5+ years of development. (Especially now that it's all current again).

Dilly Dally analysis was mentioned and linked to in an article posted in November 2013.
https://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/analysis/26756/only-the-evil-return/
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
I did find it strange that the LTD does have a lot of pro Cloud X Tifa voices in it from my prospective. I am not necessarily saying that they ship that particular pairing but maybe what Cat on Mars says is true, that the amount of Cloud X Tifa pairing individuals in the LTD could be drastically exaggerated. Although it is hard to gauge whether or not he is joking or being serious. So I dunno.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
How old is the Dilly Dally analysis btw? Because that's one of the things that bothered me while reading the initial one, I noticed that it was old and wasn't sure if the information was still reliable or had since perhaps gotten outdated. Since I see these are still referenced, and the people who wrote them are still active, I am more confident that it's still relatively up to date.

But when looking for compilations of all arguments and pieces of evidence for and against a certain point, it's nice to be sure that you're not missing 5+ years of development. (Especially now that it's all current again).

Pretty sure it was finished around 2012-2013, but people who've been here longer than me can correct me on that. The thing is, no more new information (in Ultimanias or otherwise) came out post-2011ish anyway, so all of these quotes are still relevant. I think new information only started appearing once marketing for the Remake started ramping up in 2018-19.

Ninja'd: November 2013!
 

Vortigern

Pro Adventurer
I think new information only started appearing once marketing for the Remake started ramping up in 2018-19.

Given that Tres ended the article from 2013 that this would be his "denouement" on the LTD, I can imagine he greeted the news of the Remake with mixed fanfare. :awesome:

A brand new FF7, I can't wait! But wait...people will now expect an update to the LTD article...
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
I did find it strange that the LTD does have a lot of pro Cloud X Tifa voices in it from my prospective. I am not necessarily saying that they ship that particular pairing but maybe what Cat on Mars says is true, that the amount of Cloud X Tifa pairing individuals in the LTD could be drastically exaggerated. Although it is hard to gauge whether or not he is joking or being serious. So I dunno.

Might have something to do with the knowledge required to get to the stance,

If I can be forgiven for some gross generalizations here.

I think that it's obvious that there are surface level shippers on both sides, and informed/dedicated ones.

It's not a surprise that anyone actually debating the LTD is probably among the later.

So for the generalizations I'd expect the reasons for the respective shippers to be as such:

Casual Clerith shippers just mainly like fairy tales, they like Clerith because that's what they see in the narrative and they like to be swept away by fantasy.
Casual Cloti shippers just mainly influenced by plot, they see Cloud end up with Tifa, they see that Tifa was the one he loved as a kid, case closed, Tifa wins.
Third group of casual shippers just prefers a certain girl because they just like that girl

I think that for casual shippers, the ratio is about 50-50, with CC probably pushing it more towards Cloti.

But when it comes to the informed shippers we run into two new factions.

Dedicated Cloti fans know that Cloti has basically been pushed ever since 1997, so they're pretty happy, and people just looking at it rationally tend to come to this conclusion.

Dedicated Aerith fans have been forced to make a stand mostly on emotional grounds.

I still don't think the actual numbers are a lot different, but it would explain some of the representation on forums such as these. I think that any place that's rife with debate, will ultimately favor the group with the stronger argument. If your position is grounded on emotion, this will eventually get tiresome, so you leave to some place where your opinion wont be challenged by facts.

Which is why I suspect that a larger portion of the Clerith fanbase is probably located on tumblr or other more personally overseen locations. While Cloti inevitably seems to get the overhand in the more open communities.
And this is why you see a different ratio as well in casual tweets or polls or other things that have a healthy participation of casual shippers.

I do actually think Cloti requires a bit more caring about sub-text than Clerith, which mainly requires you to follow your emotions. Which, when dealing with people, gives Clerith a distinct advantage I'd assume, but that advantage was undone by Zerith swinging the emotions pendulum the other way as soon as a person has played CC.

But I am relatively certain the TLS doesn't represent the debate ratio as a whole. As soon as one group starts to feel like the more dominant side somewhere, the other side logically starts avoiding it, which leads to claims of bias, which leads to a larger avoidance, repeat ad infinitum.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Popularity is a fickle thing. I think it’s been discussed a few times here already but back in 1997 Cloti was the underdog and Clerith was the popular ship. Over the years, what with Compilation materials released (especially Crisis Core,) the tides have massively shifted in the other direction.

@DutchDread even amongst casual shippers Cloti is overwhelmingly more popular, at least in English-speaking spaces. In Japan the ratio is a little more evenhanded, but a simple Google trend search will tell you that Cloti is still more popular.

I don’t put much stock in polls, but Dissidia FFOO did a poll last year for Valentine’s Day and the results were pretty damning:

 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
The LTD history runs deep and full of 'hate', borne out of some twisted tribalistic rivalry over the years. It probably doesn't help the fact that there had been a lot of mudslinging from both sides since forever ago. I'm honestly not surprised the oldest and most extreme Clerith shippers (the likes of Anastar, aka Blankbeat) cling onto what little thread of hope they have for their ship, because there had been a lot of bad blood between both fandoms over the years. To a few, the LTD has ceased to be a matter of facts; it's about "who was right all along".

Honestly, it's sad. That's why I truly want for this LTD to conclusively end (although personally, I genuinely think it has ended a long time ago). So that everyone can finally move on from it.

BB is Anastar?

Also, I've said the LTD was over like almost ten years ago.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
BB is Anastar?

Also, I've said the LTD was over like almost ten years ago.

Hehe, yeah, before I came to these forums I saw that, and saw you apologize, I personally wouldn't have, I think people should be able to take a friendly jokey jab, and I personally refuse to apologize for things unless I personally think I really did something wrong. But I didn't expect you to still be here.
I honestly thought that I was probably looking at a preserved moment in time from the elder days of the internet :P Honestly didn't expect these forums to be too active in general.

Was glad to find out I was wrong.


Popularity is a fickle thing. I think it’s been discussed a few times here already but back in 1997 Cloti was the underdog and Clerith was the popular ship. Over the years, what with Compilation materials released (especially Crisis Core,) the tides have massively shifted in the other direction.

@DutchDread even amongst casual shippers Cloti is overwhelmingly more popular, at least in English-speaking spaces. In Japan the ratio is a little more evenhanded, but a simple Google trend search will tell you that Cloti is still more popular.

I don’t put much stock in polls, but Dissidia FFOO did a poll last year for Valentine’s Day and the results were pretty damning:


I've seen that poll, but then strangely enough, when I went into the comment sections (for that poll I think), it seemed to be overwhelmingly pro-clerith, which again made me wonder if there is some sort of difference in the type of people who ship each pairing. Is Cloti perhaps numerous enough to vote, but not interested enough to send tweets? who knows.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Even when I first played the game in '97, I was never an Aerith fan. I found her annoying back, just like I do now. When I was playing she was the least developed party member and when she was killed, I was grateful that I didn't have a "ribbon" or any important gear on her to begin with. I can see that would be devastating for a lot of people if they had Aerith all geared out and leveled up and she gets take away in that fashion. My team was almost exclusively were Cloud, Barret, and Tifa. With Vincent and Barret tagging out every once in a while.

I never found her personality appealing at all. I guess it is just I don't like bubbly type of people. Even in real life. She kind reminds me of a stereotypical "valley girl" from California. Please don't take me the wrong way. I am not trying to diminish her as a character and I know how important she is for the over arching story. I do see the appeal for others who might like that personality but it wasn't for me back then or even now.

I never really gave much thought into the LTD because well, because Aerith dies halfway through the game and as far as I was concerned that ended it right then and there. Anyways, these are my thoughts on the LTD back when the game first came out.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Hehe, yeah, before I came to these forums I saw that, and saw you apologize, I personally wouldn't have, I think people should be able to take a friendly jokey jab, and I personally refuse to apologize for things unless I personally think I really did something wrong. But I didn't expect you to still be here.

I have never apologized for that post, AFAIK. Other people did. I stand by it. Even the Ted Koppel image. Especially the Ted Koppel Image.

I honestly thought that I was probably looking at a preserved moment in time from the elder days of the internet :P Honestly didn't expect these forums to be too active in general.

Was glad to find out I was wrong.

2010 is the elder days of the internet? Oh my sweet summer child...

I've seen that poll, but then strangely enough, when I went into the comment sections (for that poll I think), it seemed to be overwhelmingly pro-clerith, which again made me wonder if there is some sort of difference in the type of people who ship each pairing. Is Cloti perhaps numerous enough to vote, but not interested enough to send tweets? who knows.

A lot of C/T people are content to enjoy it, but there is a very vocal C/A minority that have to make themselves known and assert the pairing as true.
 
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