ForceStealer
Double Growth
Doesn't feel that ambiguous to me. The fact that "beautiful" could refer to both the drink and Tifa is specifically what makes it flirty.
Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)
- Thread starter Tennyo
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TifaxCloud
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You’d be surprised at how many people are vehement that Cloud was talking about the drink only. I’ve seen arguments that brought up the German translation which had Cloud refer to the drink only. Now I agree with you that this moment isn’t quite that ambiguous but the entire ship prior to the remake certainly was so it’s nice to see confirmation of more overt stuff
a_apple 2.0
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How is that line ambiguous tho? He holds up that glass looks straight at Tifa and calls her beautiful. Like it's so straight forward 
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I don't want to be a stick in the mud but I thought that I should mention about the amount of times that Cloud says Tifa's name, I believe that is because the syntax of the way Japanese language is structured and spoken. The reason I am saying this is because only in the Japanese language track, Tifa's name is said that many times. I know everyone likes to think that Japanese is the "canon" language and everything.
With that said, deep down I would like to believe that the reason Cloud says Tifa's name so many times is that he is secretly in love with her, so lets go with that.
Edited to add. The whole "beautiful" thing. In that situation, who in the world would be talking about the drink. I think they should read a few threads back when we had a frame by frame detailed analyses on this very subject. Besides we all know Cloud is slow, when it comes to these type of things but everyone also knows that he is directly looking at Tifa and he is speaking to Tifa. Why else would she blush.
...and yet people believe a High Five to be love at first sight is totally silly.
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
I mean he's referring to the drink and, by extension, Tifa. Because she just said that, normally, a bar patron would have said something sweet regarding the drink she made them. It's playful, and thus, flirty. That people would argue this is why everyone hates the LTD.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
I think the only way the drink scene could come off as ambiguous is if you completely divorce it of any context whatsoever. Quibbles about voice acting performances aside, what is the purpose of including this scene in the game if the creators weren't trying to show Cloud attempting to flirt with Tifa? Would they really spend the time and resources motion capturing, animating and recording this scene just to convey that Tifa is good at being a bartender and that Cloud thinks red drinks are pretty? Time and resources they could have spent say -- finishing the Tifa mission that was cut from the final game?
We also know that Tifa is a good cook, but we don't see a scene showing those skills in the Remake because unless it served some other plot purpose, it would be a waste of resources to animate. This is the kind of trivia that could be easily relegated to an Ultimania.
The funny thing is that this particular scene doesn't convey any other story information at all. There's nothing about Shinra or AVALANCHE or even their shared past. The sole purpose of this scene is to deepen our understanding of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Same could be said for a number of their scenes in the Remake. The train roll, the slow motion handgrab and all the gratuitous touching on the pillar come to mind. There is no other story-related reason for these scenes to be as long as they are or as many of them. They pretty much only exist to show how much Cloud and Tifa care about each other and how they are attracted to each other because illustrating this dynamic is critical to telling the story of FFVII.
You can argue about individual scenes and lines of dialogue until the cows come home, but if you actually consider them within the context of the overall story (as they are meant to be consumed), the direction of the story isn't really ambiguous at all. It wasn't in the OG. It wasn't in the Compilation. It's even less so now with the Remake.
We also know that Tifa is a good cook, but we don't see a scene showing those skills in the Remake because unless it served some other plot purpose, it would be a waste of resources to animate. This is the kind of trivia that could be easily relegated to an Ultimania.
The funny thing is that this particular scene doesn't convey any other story information at all. There's nothing about Shinra or AVALANCHE or even their shared past. The sole purpose of this scene is to deepen our understanding of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Same could be said for a number of their scenes in the Remake. The train roll, the slow motion handgrab and all the gratuitous touching on the pillar come to mind. There is no other story-related reason for these scenes to be as long as they are or as many of them. They pretty much only exist to show how much Cloud and Tifa care about each other and how they are attracted to each other because illustrating this dynamic is critical to telling the story of FFVII.
You can argue about individual scenes and lines of dialogue until the cows come home, but if you actually consider them within the context of the overall story (as they are meant to be consumed), the direction of the story isn't really ambiguous at all. It wasn't in the OG. It wasn't in the Compilation. It's even less so now with the Remake.
a_apple 2.0
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Exactly, it's such a nice scene and seeing Cloud try to being smooth is a really great moment, even more so if you compare how he was normally portrait through out KH/Compilation/Dissidia/etc
TifaxCloud
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I literally said this moment isn’t ambiguous, but Cloti as a whole (before the remake) was. Which is why these stupid arguments happen, because people use their own personal interpretations as a fact. Which is why I was looking for a dev quote in the first place to shut the arguments down for good.How is that line ambiguous tho? He holds up that glass looks straight at Tifa and calls her beautiful. Like it's so straight forward
TifaxCloud
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Looks like I’m not going crazy after all, I found the quote!
KindOfBlue
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“Hollow is about Aerith!” “But Hollow is about Zack!”
“Cloud was calling Tifa beautiful!” “No, Cloud was calling the drink beautiful!”
“Cloud’s love interest is Tifa!” “But Cloud’s love interest is Aerith!”
“Aerith is the heroine!” “But Tifa is the heroine!”
“High-affection Highwind Tifa scene is canon!” “But Gold Saucer Aerith date scene is canon!”
It’s fascinating how much of the LTD consists of disagreements over points that aren’t even mutually exclusive to each other
I mean there were already several quotes from various ultimanias and “Case of Tifa” from On the Way to a Smile that leave VERY little to the imagination regarding the nature of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship if you ask me...
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Absolutely awesome find! I love how the devs reference the OG. I knew deep down back when I first played this in '97 that is what that scene was trying to convey!
I love it!
TifaxCloud
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I mean, clearly you're preaching to the choir here lol. I don't disagree but many others do. But decades of the LTD and discussions with the overall fanbase on other platforms speaks to how ambiguous the romance was in the game. Which is the overall point here
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a_apple 2.0
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This doesn't really sound like something japanese devs would say, like the way how it's phrased. Sounds kinda like a fake quote
KindOfBlue
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Apparently the translation is pretty inaccurate, the one by aitaikimochi is a lot less shippy...I dunno if the mistranslation is intentional but it does reflect poorly on people who spread it around when there’s already enough real quotes, it’s really uneccesary
I like to skip all the BS misinterpretations and just get right to the point, if somebody says something that goes directly against the devs own words then just post what the devs actually said and move on
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I'm not really saying the EN scene is not flirty - I think the French scene is SUPER FLIRTY so I find this lacking in the EN version 
For the record, I wrote about chapter 3 and the cloti flirting here, and you'll see what I mean 
For the record, I wrote about chapter 3 and the cloti flirting here, and you'll see what I mean
KindOfBlue
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Maybe it’s partly the language differences and partly who I am as a person but I thought the romantic undertones were conveyed just as they should be in the English...I don’t speak Japanese so I can’t comment much on the accuracy but for what we already know about them, I thought it was fine unless there’s inaccuracies I don’t know about?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I do think there was some difference in translations, in how Tifa seeks her compliment, but I don't remember it. I only watch French streams nowadays, so the EN version is far away in my memory. I just remember cloti fans being upset when they compared JP to EN. I have zero clue if it's deserved or not. Not having EN as my native language, sometimes things do slip up and I totally miss the subtleties, but at the same time, many fans play with the English version and don't have English as their native tongue either - they too miss those subtleties. I think we should definitely keep that in mind when we talk about how we feel about a scene. Not everyone could play the game in their native tongue.
iamhorde
Pro Adventurer
I've missed your level-headed observations @insanehobbit!
The devs have said that they do not comment on how characters relate to each other outside of what is depicted in the game and I think the game has made it pretty clear that Cloud and Tifa has a quiet affection towards each other. Not to mention all that teasing / questioning about Cloud's relationship with Tifa. Almost every major and side character has done that - Aerith asking, Jessie asking, Barret getting Cloud all jealous in the resolution scene, Biggs and Wedge giving space, Marle advising Cloud, Andrea reminding Cloud to never let "it" go and Chocobo Sam's
It's also good to know that Tifa and Cloud's mocap actors have been filming a lot together
Speaking of scenes, the one scene that has been troubling me is where the red whisper lunges its sword towards Tifa and Cloud came to her rescue. As far as I'm aware that is a non-optional scene. Within the last chapters of FF7R there were 2 scenes where Sephiroth shows the intention of harming Tifa. I sure hope these are simply red herrings because I would be devastated if they built up Cloud and Tifa's affection so well in the Remake only to shock fans by having something bad happen to Tifa. This is probably bugging me way more than any 20 year LTD.
KindOfBlue
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Since we’re not actually supposed to know how Cloud and Tifa feel about each other until the Lifestream, it makes sense to me that their romance would be less in-your-face compared to Aerith. I figured in the same way that the Aerith romance is played up more blatantly because it builds up to her death, the Tifa romance is played more subtly because it builds up to them discovering their feelings for each other.
And I never took this as some sort of statement on why one romance is more important than the other, they both go in very different directions but they’re both narrative devices with their own purposes in the story. Generally, I don’t like love triangles but I appreciate the way the dual-romances are used here.
So I don’t mind if Cloud and Tifa’s romance isn’t as blatant as Cloud and Aerith’s because that’s...the point? It’s obvious why certain fans may want to dismiss whatever ship they view as an obstacle to their own but I think that attitude completely misses the point of having two love interests altogether. Instead of paying attention to the character development, fans are more concerned with arguing over which ship is more “canon”.
I remember the devs commenting on the novelty of a protagonist with two love interests and while it’s natural to have preferences, I feel like the commonly-held “it’s up to the player” idea ends up ruining what both romances are actually meant to do for the story. I mean, if the devs already told us what the characters are feeling (as they have multiple times), is it really “up to the player” anymore?
I think the remake did a better job at building Cloud and Tifa up than the OG even if you choose to pay more attention to Aerith (mini rant: I love FF7 to death but I’m not a fan of the affection mechanics at all, both in the OG and the remake). I could see how somebody who pays more attention to Aerith could walk away from the OG or Advent Children not even realizing Cloud and Tifa like each other, so I was pretty satisfied with how it was handled for where we are in the remake’s story. That said...
I don’t think they’re going to kill Tifa but I would be legitimately upset if they did, and this is from somebody who likes the possibility of change that the ending of the remake brings. I’m pretty open when it comes to the changes to the story but killing Tifa instead of Aerith is definitely where I’d draw the line. Not even for shipping purposes either (I swear I’m not a shipper, guys, I promise! B-Baka!) it’s just that would be so...cheap.
And I never took this as some sort of statement on why one romance is more important than the other, they both go in very different directions but they’re both narrative devices with their own purposes in the story. Generally, I don’t like love triangles but I appreciate the way the dual-romances are used here.
So I don’t mind if Cloud and Tifa’s romance isn’t as blatant as Cloud and Aerith’s because that’s...the point? It’s obvious why certain fans may want to dismiss whatever ship they view as an obstacle to their own but I think that attitude completely misses the point of having two love interests altogether. Instead of paying attention to the character development, fans are more concerned with arguing over which ship is more “canon”.
I remember the devs commenting on the novelty of a protagonist with two love interests and while it’s natural to have preferences, I feel like the commonly-held “it’s up to the player” idea ends up ruining what both romances are actually meant to do for the story. I mean, if the devs already told us what the characters are feeling (as they have multiple times), is it really “up to the player” anymore?
I think the remake did a better job at building Cloud and Tifa up than the OG even if you choose to pay more attention to Aerith (mini rant: I love FF7 to death but I’m not a fan of the affection mechanics at all, both in the OG and the remake). I could see how somebody who pays more attention to Aerith could walk away from the OG or Advent Children not even realizing Cloud and Tifa like each other, so I was pretty satisfied with how it was handled for where we are in the remake’s story. That said...
I don’t think they’re going to kill Tifa but I would be legitimately upset if they did, and this is from somebody who likes the possibility of change that the ending of the remake brings. I’m pretty open when it comes to the changes to the story but killing Tifa instead of Aerith is definitely where I’d draw the line. Not even for shipping purposes either (I swear I’m not a shipper, guys, I promise! B-Baka!) it’s just that would be so...cheap.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I've said it already in the LTD thread, but it makes no sense to kill off Tifa. Who's going to help Cloud if they kill Tifa? Answer: no one, because she's the only one who's able to do that. Aerith and Tifa serve different purposes, with Aerith gearing up towards the overall meta of the game, so to speak, taking care of what's happening in the plot - especially Sephiroth, whom she looks to be the ultimate antagonist in Remake - and Tifa taking care of the intimate plot - i.e. taking care of helping Cloud through his journey specifically. This is why it's Tifa who's described as the sole heroine in Remake - it's because her role is to be Cloud's pendant. Aerith is already fighting a battle both don't understand yet. Aerith and Tifa's roles cannot be switched, because they serve vastly different purposes - Tifa can't help the way Aerith does, nor does Aerith can help the way Tifa does. They both have distinct roles. And the devs have already lay down the path to the OG story, with Cloud not being himself, having memory troubles, Aerith hinting at her own death, the Lifestream scene being hinted at, etc. Remake may look different, but we are going to get the same skeleton of a story.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
The short answer here would be that the devs have said numerous times that they aren't going to be making drastic changes to FF7's story, and I think Tifa dying would constitute a pretty big change...however, I'm going to pretend I don't know any of that because I'm not one for short answers, and I think this makes for an interesting thought experiment.
Assuming the Sephiroth we see is FF7R in the Sephiroth from Advent Children, and thus knows what happens in the OG, if he was smart, he would actually kill Tifa this time around. Killing Aerith allows her join the Lifestream, which is ultimately what stops Meteor in the end. Killing Tifa would mean that once Cloud's mind shatters, no one is there to put it back together.
Obviously, this scenario is not going to happen because that would mean Sephiroth wins, and FF7R is not going to end with the villain triumphing over the heroes. So is there a world in which Tifa dies and our heroes still succeed? If you think Zack is actually alive in this timeline, then he can show up and tell Cloud, "Hey, dude it was me, not you in Nibelheim five years ago. You were just the Shinra grunt." Technically, that would resolve the question of 'What Actually Happened in Nibelheim Five Years Ago?" but it wouldn't be very satisfying because the Lifestream scene isn't just about what Cloud is confused about, but why he would adopt this false persona in the first place. And the answer is...Tifa. The answer is, ever since he was a kid, he wanted to impress Tifa. In the Remake, we already see brief flashes of their childhood that we never saw at this stage in the OG. The only person who would be able to help Cloud make sense of all this is Tifa, and since Tifa is just a regular old human, there's no way she could do this if she's dead.
Another problem with a world where Aerith lives and Tifa dies is that the only reason that finding and repairing Cloud's psyche feels as urgent as it does in the OG is because we don't realize that Aerith already prayed for Holy before she died. Thus finding Cloud is crucial because we're led to believe that he is instrumental to stopping Sephiroth and Meteor. If Aerith lives, then we'll have effectively already stopped Meteor by that point, (though I suppose you'd still need to fight Sephiroth to allow Holy to do its job), so why would we care if Cloud lost his mind? It's small potatoes compared to saving the world. Sure, he has a personal vendetta against Sephiroth, but pretty much all of the characters do, and it's not like he has any special abilities that would make defeating Sephiroth impossible without him. And honestly, in this scenario, why would Sephiroth even bother with fucking with Cloud's mind and killing Tifa to do so outside of just being sadistic? Aerith is still the much bigger threat to his agenda, so anything to do with Cloud would feel extraneous and a distraction from the whole saving the world thing.
FF7's story is pretty intricately plotted, and changing one thing will have wide-ranging ramifications that may not be immediately obvious. I'm sure it's possible to write a satisfying story where Aerith lives and Tifa dies, but it's hard for me to imagine how they would do that without needlessly complicating an already complicated plot. If they were completely starting from scratch, that would be one thing, but we've already seen Part 1 of the Remake, and it's following the main story beats of the OG pretty closely. At this point, I just don't see how they could make it work.
I get that some people might be traumatized by the Benioffs & Weisses of the world, but not every creator prioritizes shock over character. SE has many faults, but I wouldn't consider this one of them. Plenty of other shocking twists have been included in other Final Fantasies (the world actually ending halfway through FFVI, discovering that Sin will always return in FFX), but none of these were included for shock value alone. They also deepen the themes of the stories and further their characters' arcs. Aerith's death isn't meant to just shock the audience at the expense of her character development. Aerith still has a satisfying arc despite (and possibly because of) her death. Her death isn't something that just happens to her. She basically goes through every beat of the Hero's Journey before she makes the choice to go to the Forgotten City alone and pray for Holy, regardless of the risk it entails.
Tifa doesn't exist just to facilitate Cloud's character development. She has her own arc too. If Sephiroth kills her before the Lifestream scene, then she never gets to make the choice to confront her past. Her character arc would forever remain incomplete, and she would be less a character than a plot device to further Cloud's manpain. Just catastrophically bad writing that we've hopefully left in the 90s.
Honestly, Sephiroth killing Tifa would also be such a galaxy brain way to get what he wants. A more direct way to go about things would be to try to get Aerith to forsake her duty. Which is more of where I can see the timeline where Zack lives plays into this. Sephiroth trying to tempt Aerith with a world where she and Zack can live. This is the sort of change that can coexist with the story of the OG. None of the changes in FF7R directly contradict what happens in the OG. They're mostly scenarios that they might not have had the time or technology to show back in 1997. Since we really only see the OG through Cloud's eyes, maybe this was happening to Aerith all along. Who knows? I'm not in the prediction business, but this is something that can coexist with the OG in a way that Tifa dying does not.
Back to the question, could Sephiroth trying to harm Tifa in FF7R be foreshadowing her death by his hand? Maybe? But it could just as well be a way to show how much Cloud cares about Tifa or even a way to foreshadow how he fulfills his promise to her by successfully protecting her from Sephiroth in the end. Tifa's life is also threatened by at least three different shipping containers throughout the course of FF7R, but I don't think it's to foreshadow how that's the way she meets her demise.
I think the goal of those scenes is to get us to do exactly what we're doing now. It's to inject an element of uncertainty to an outcome we know is inevitable. They have to make the threat of failure feel real, otherwise, why would we spend what will probably be hundreds of hours of our lives just to get to a foregone conclusion?
KindOfBlue
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Jenova successfully makes Cloud kill Aerith before she finishes praying instead of Sephiroth doing it after she’s already done, preventing Holy from being summoned while also breaking Cloud even further—I’m sorry, what?
I think the reason I’m only like 10% concerned for Tifa’s fate is that the story would have to change so much that it really does stop being a remake. Plus the amount of reverence the devs have for Aerith’s death gives me confidence that they won’t go that far.
The Lifestream scene is easily my favorite scene in anything FF-related, and it’s the scene that made FF7 my favorite video game so it would be pretty lame to not have that moment where Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings. Much like Aerith’s death, it’s one of those iconic scenes that’s so heavily anticipated that I doubt they won’t do it justice.
I think the reason I’m only like 10% concerned for Tifa’s fate is that the story would have to change so much that it really does stop being a remake. Plus the amount of reverence the devs have for Aerith’s death gives me confidence that they won’t go that far.
The Lifestream scene is easily my favorite scene in anything FF-related, and it’s the scene that made FF7 my favorite video game so it would be pretty lame to not have that moment where Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings. Much like Aerith’s death, it’s one of those iconic scenes that’s so heavily anticipated that I doubt they won’t do it justice.
KindOfBlue
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I’m honestly looking forward more to the Lifestream than Aerith’s death. I mean, I love that scene too but the Lifestream is where everything in the story comes full circle, yet it doesn’t seem to get talked about as much. Which I understand since the death of a beloved character is probably more palpable and less abstract than this trippy-ass dream sequence.
All the attention Aerith’s death gets meant I and many others already knew about it going in, but on the other hand, taking attention away from the Lifestream scene meant it was easier for me to not get spoiled on it. To comment more on Cloud and Tifa particularly, I wasn’t surprised that he had feelings for her but to learn that his whole character arc starts with her was refreshing since Cloud really is a big softie despite coming off as an edgelord.
All the attention Aerith’s death gets meant I and many others already knew about it going in, but on the other hand, taking attention away from the Lifestream scene meant it was easier for me to not get spoiled on it. To comment more on Cloud and Tifa particularly, I wasn’t surprised that he had feelings for her but to learn that his whole character arc starts with her was refreshing since Cloud really is a big softie despite coming off as an edgelord.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I think if they go that route, chosing to end next part (or the one after) on Aerith's death will give more proeminence to the Lifestream's scene. Because Aerith's death will be very far away when we'll play the next part, it will make a lot of people anticipate more the next part, and this scene can shine a lot more.