Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

shersita007

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I never though Cloud was 2 person in one, I take it as Cloud having 2 personalities but given preference to one more than the other (the Soldier type) plus some memories issues (being unaware of his own memories, while using other made up memories as being real) let's not forget he also has memories problems too, is not only personality issues. Now, this doesn't have to impact on the relationship arc he builds with other characters, cause identity/memories is one thing, and emotions is another thing, in the only place I can see this can have an impact is from other characters side, that are meeting and interacting with someone that isn't acting with his real personality.

In Tifa resolution scene, I find it interesting cause more than words, is the events being portrayed on it, how Cloud introduce himself as the though cool guy, and ends turning into this soft vulnerable puppy, but if you want to have another interpretation of it, is ok... That's the interesting part of a narrative, everyone has their own interpretation.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
But Tifa's scene doesn't depict something out of there for Cloud, and the hug is the result of what he had wanted for 2 chapters already. What Nojima states there is that Cloud is an akward 16 years old boy in his head, who's trying hard, and that's what he wanted to depict - someone not cool! And to me, it's a hard dichotomy to write, but he did it perfectly, it's a scene that's very satisfying by itself, without being true Cloud showing up.

As for your interpretation of Cloud that's cool, but I can tell you that especially 10 years ago, when you described Cloud, is was really black or white - which is natural, given the OG. The Remake allows us to put more nuance there, but his two personalities were vastly different, enough to make SOLDIER!Cloud and true!Cloud relevant enough to be used. Nowadays, that is much less true though.

Edit: looks like my cloti post in tumblr got moderated, it doesn't show up in the tags. Nice doing there, cloti fans. I'm utterly disappointed. I've been a cloti shipper longer than most of you, too. :haunter:
 
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odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I don't know if it's the right time to speak up here. But I just wanted to say that the only time I personally feel we can pinpoint that there is a "True Cloud" is when they decide to actually show him to us. Take for example, that scene with Cloud waking up in the church? Before he does, we see a white screen, and we hear his voice speaking to him. They seem to make a clear distinction that this part of him is locked away in his subconscious. He doesn't just pop out at will and only with Tifa. If he did, I personally feel they'd show it to us some fancy way like that, so that the audience can somehow make that distinction. Based on Nojima's interview, it seems they were simply going with the Cloud wanted to comfort her so much, but he didn't know how, so he was struggling, but eventually did it. The end result is still the same: Cloud wanted to hug Tifa and comfort her.

AS HE SHOULD. I thought that was super sweet.

I'd have to agree with Eerie here that saying Cloud is only being his true self with Tifa would not only diminish the relationship he's building with other characters, but also his interactions with Tifa Pre-Lifestream Event, and it doesn't seem to be the direction Nojima or the other devs are aiming for in the Remake. Just read all their interviews. Don't get me wrong. In my eyes, he's ONLY sweet with Tifa, as in she's the girl for him. He does things for and around her that he doesn't do with anyone else. He's just so damn sweet and caring with her. But him caring about everyone else isn't "fake".

And I'm going to be blunt here, but 素が出る was said rather casually in that interview by Nomura, and he was specifically talking about Cloud's manner of speaking with each girl. Just follow the topic of conversation. He was talking about the voice acting and how he speaks to them. It wasn't anything deep like True Cloud! vs Soldier Cloud!

I feel like we're making that interview out to be something deeper than it actually was.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I think what’s happening here is something that seems to happen often with translations in this fanbase, where even the most subtle language differences might inspire the most extreme interpretations (and misinterpretations).

Maybe “true personality” might mean something less serious in a different context but given what we know about this story, it could imply much more. So if the point was to illustrate that Cloud doesn’t put up a front in how he addresses Tifa, maybe it’s more accurate to say he “speaks more naturally” with her since at least that description applies specifically to how he interacts with her and not where he’s at mentally.

Not to get into LTD stuff too much but it’s because Cloud isn’t a totally separate person that I don’t personally buy the idea of true Cloud only liking Tifa. Maybe before he met her, sure, obviously. But like I said in the LTD thread, it opens the door for people to also disqualify whatever development Cloud and Tifa got while he was still not truly himself.

On the other hand, I think it’s because he liked Aerith and blames himself for losing her that he’s afraid he’ll also lose Tifa during AC. He already lost one woman he liked, now he’s living with the woman he’s had feelings for since childhood and he’s actually happy with her according to Word of God. But he can’t bear the thought of losing his family after losing Aerith, Zack, and almost losing Tifa twice (all of which he blames himself for).
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
This is where we're going to have to disagree because I don't think Cloud fell in love with Aerith, but she was the first friend he made by himself and not through someone else in FFVII - so after his coma - she was precious to him, just as Zack since he was also his friend. Friendships to Cloud who's always been lonely are really precious. And we know what happens when he thinks Tifa's dead: he kills Sephiroth.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
This is where we're going to have to disagree because I don't think Cloud fell in love with Aerith,
I mean I wouldn’t go as far as saying falling in love, but developing an infatuation at least? I don’t know if we ever get any concrete statements on the magnitude of Cloud’s romantic feelings, only that he has them
 

Phantasia

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Not to get into LTD stuff too much but it’s because Cloud isn’t a totally separate person that I don’t personally buy the idea of true Cloud only liking Tifa. Maybe before he met her, sure, obviously. But like I said in the LTD thread, it opens the door for people to also disqualify whatever development Cloud and Tifa got while he was still not truly himself.

On the other hand, I think it’s because he liked Aerith and blames himself for losing her that he’s afraid he’ll also lose Tifa during AC. He already lost one woman he liked, now he’s living with the woman he’s had feelings for since childhood and he’s actually happy with her according to Word of God. But he can’t bear the thought of losing his family after losing Aerith, Zack, and almost losing Tifa twice (all of which he blames himself for).
Many cloti fans don't like the idea of Cloud ever liking Aerith romantically because... they feel robbed I guess? When people get attached to something (or "their idea of something"), is hard to let go. Even we wouldn't be here spilling different takes left and right if that wasn't the case, and this is a club of like-minded people.

Then, on my part, I honestly get where they are coming from. There is a choice mechanics built into the game so you can decide "how the story is going to play out", favoring one girl over the other, but then stuff happens, the power of choice is taken from you, but the game continues. You keep playing, and then find out the whole backstory of the protagonist you are roleplaying as is intimately tied to only "one of the options", so, well, you get this kind of mindset. These are people who chose Tifa while playing through disc 1, and then finished the game. Their mind is set on that take.

But hey, there are some other shipping formulas:
  • People who chose Aerith and let go (after watching how everything played out) = Casual gamer who doesn't care / some clotis;
  • People who chose Aerith and never let go = Hardcore clerith;
  • People who chose Tifa and let go (for whatever reason) = Casual gamer who doesn't care / some clerith;
  • People who chose Tifa and never let go = Hardcore Clotis (I gonna add casual clotis here too, because honestly, the plot doesn't let me put them anywhere else).
In the end, I still think is irrelevant, because the conclusion of the story was the same whether he loved her or not. She IS/WAS very important to him and the rest of the cast, and no one can take that away from her, because that's in the story. This is the same reason why I think Cloud's feeling towards Aerith are never addressed in any suplemental material, because they are on you, the player (it's like, "here, you bought the game, you do what you like"). Sadly to some, his feeling towards Tifa are NOT on us, they are part of the story, and that too, is something that cannot be taken away from her.

This is all in he context of the OG though, becase the compilation is very telling on how everything went with Tifa. If it wasn't the case, why keep coming back to those feelings (Last Order, CC)? Why keep coming back to Tifa's heartaches (Case of Tifa, AC)? Why keep coming back to the relationship between those two (literally the rest of the compilation)? Why no go back to his relationship with Aerith (we only see flashbacks of her death...)?

{{{ In AC his feelings towards Aerith are only addressed as guilt, and put in parallel with his feelings towards Zack, because whether he loved her or not, is irrelevant. You don't have to love someone to carry the burden of their death when you think it was your fault, specially if that other person was your friend and was murdered right in front of you. }}}
 
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Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
On the other hand, I think it’s because he liked Aerith and blames himself for losing her that he’s afraid he’ll also lose Tifa during AC. He already lost one woman he liked, now he’s living with the woman he’s had feelings for since childhood and he’s actually happy with her according to Word of God. But he can’t bear the thought of losing his family after losing Aerith, Zack, and almost losing Tifa twice (all of which he blames himself for).
Losing Zack and Aerith certainly contributed to that fear, but I think his past experience of almost losing Tifa twice would be the main reason for it. I'd even say that after Nibelheim's destruction, he'd have spent the following five years thinking that Tifa was actually dead, up until he sees her in Midgar.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Losing Zack and Aerith certainly contributed to that fear, but I think his past experience of almost losing Tifa twice would be the main reason for it. I'd even say that after Nibelheim's destruction, he'd have spent the following five years thinking that Tifa was actually dead, up until he sees her in Midgar.
Not that I disagree necessarily, it’s just AC specifically focuses more on his depression from his guilt over Aerith and Zack. Sadly, they don’t really go into detail about how Cloud’s guilt and his feelings for Tifa connect, though we know the connection is there because of the devs’ words. It’s one of those things where they had a perfect opportunity to really dive into what’s going on with Cloud mentally but the movie was pretty shallow in how those feelings were conveyed.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
AC/C, as badly written as it is, showcases his survivor guilt + guilt of not being able to save them, for sure, but there is another thing it depicted: the bump that Cloud and Tifa went through at that moment, and how they resolved it. It's Tifa who pushed Cloud to better himself, to confront his fear of losing his family - and it's Aerith who forgave him, allowing him to move forward.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
It’s a shame you’d have to do some homework by reading “Case of Tifa” and the ultimanias to really get the full context of what’s going on in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship though...it’s no wonder people interpret AC to be about him wanting to die and be with Aerith, especially in the original version of AC
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think the couple status of Cloud and Tifa mostly went over people's heads, because they watched that when they were young. Once you've been in a long relationship yourself, you can see it written in AC/C, how they interact, etc. But the fact that it's going in so many places and directions at the same time can definitely lose you. Some people decried Tifa for her dilly dally chat with Cloud, but when you look at it, it's perfectly normal if she's the equivalent of his spouse!
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Some people decried Tifa for her dilly dally chat with Cloud, but when you look at it, it's perfectly normal if she's the equivalent of his spouse!
Yeah, I know I’ve seen a few people point to those moments as proof that they’re not right for each other and I’m just like do people not realize couples go through rough patches sometimes lol
 

Phantasia

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I liked AC/C enough to have a good time watching it, but part of me wishes for a timeskip that jumps over those events at the end of the remake project so I can pretend they didn't happen... I'm sorry. :sweatsmile:
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I liked AC/C enough to have a good time watching it, but part of me wishes for a timeskip that jumps over those events at the end of the remake project so I can pretend they didn't happen... I'm sorry. :sweatsmile:
I actually think there’s a chance that the events of AC just don’t happen in the remake’s future since we seem to have stopped the three remnants of Sephiroth already and we might be going for a permanent end to the planet’s crisis.

If they went there, I imagine Cloud and Tifa could actually live in peace without worrying about geostigma or Jenova or Sephiroth. A happy ending for them... (in more ways than one ;))
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Nah, the remnants were from the future, from after their deaths. So it doesn't matter if they killed them. They were a sort of mini-WEAPONS, mix between WEAPONS and the remnants once they rejoined the Lifestream - because they were accepted there, not part of the Black Lifestream anymore, so the Planet could use them.

That's why I say the end of Remake has very little interference with the timeline. At the end of Remake, we're left pretty much where we were at the end of the Midgar portion. The Compilation is still bound to happen. The devs are very proud of it too, why would they want it to be erased?
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Nah, the remnants were from the future, from after their deaths. So it doesn't matter if they killed them.
The descriptions of those three Whispers mentions them fighting to protect the future that created them. So if we know they’re manifestations of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, wouldn’t it make sense that they’ve gone back in time to stop Cloud and the gang from basically preventing their existence?

The devs are very proud of it too, why would they want it to be erased?
It wouldn’t actually be “erased” per se, those events would still be relevant to the post-OG story and they would have directly lead to the events of Remake. While they’ll likely stick with most of the OG story, I don’t see the post-OG events still going down just as they did before with this “unknown journey” thing. They actually have a chance to tie up some loose ends from the Compilation and end the whole thing properly.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
It only makes sense and remains canon if you believe it's a loop, however nothing indicates it at all. Otherwise, it would mean the Compilation is no longer canon at the end of Remake, and I don't believe that's what the devs are aiming at - they want to encapsulate it into Remake, to wave it as to give a narrative flow that wasn't present with just the OG. And also read from someone in Twitter - don't remember who though - that the "unknown journey" thing in JP is more a way to convey the hype for the next part. In all honestly, I do believe the beats of the story are going to be the same, just expanded on, and things are going to get clarified, especially because the OG wasn't really clear on a lot of plot points.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
It only makes sense and remains canon if you believe it's a loop, however nothing indicates it at all. Otherwise, it would mean the Compilation is no longer canon at the end of Remake, and I don't believe that's what the devs are aiming at - they want to encapsulate it into Remake, to wave it as to give a narrative flow that wasn't present with just the OG.
That’s what I mean though, the rest of the Compilation would still be canon in the sense that the Remake only exists because the events of the Compilation happened in the first place. It’s just that post-Remake doesn’t have to follow AC and DC anymore but they did still happen at some point, like an Avengers: Endgame kind of scenario where changing the past doesn’t mean those events didn’t exist at some point.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah, but ACC is a movie they are very proud of, so I don't see them erasing it from the Compilation and leaving it as a "what if". The Compilation as a whole is going to make more sense through the lense of Remake, but that's where it stops. I do expect ACC to remain as the follow up of both OG and Remake. Changing the ending so much as ACC doesn't happen is, IMHO, too significant of a change. It would also mean that all the novellas are not canon anymore, and I don't see it.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Yeah, but ACC is a movie they are very proud of, so I don't see them erasing it from the Compilation and leaving it as a "what if".
I’m saying AC still happened, because the events of the remake wouldn’t have occurred otherwise. Remake’s existence depends on the assumption that AC already happened (presumably). It’s like, if you want to know why certain events in the remake happen the way they do, go watch AC and/or play CC for an explanation. But the future of the remake specifically isn’t bound to those events.

This still lets them take elements of AC and the novellas and incorporate them into whatever post-Remake looks like but specifically the remnants, the return of Sephiroth, geostigma, those plots would have been resolved. It’s a story that’s already been told and it’s still available to those who want it, but it would definitely not be made irrelevant by this.

Hypothetically, we could still have Cloud and Tifa living together and taking in Denzel and Marlene, since nothing about the ending of the remake really points to those events being undone. But the story that they told with AC could still maintain its proper place after the OG but before the remake. In my mind at least, that’s different from a full-on retcon.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Remake’s existence depends on the assumption that AC already happened (presumably).
No. Definitely not. They see glimpses of the future through the Lifestream because the Lifestream connects the future and past in one gigantic singularity itself, but AC/C has not happened by that point, and if everything in Remake leads to AC/C not happening, then it would be out of canon because it would be rewritten - and I don't think the devs want this. Remake is very clear that it's the future they see, a future that hasn't happened yet and that they want to stop because they think it's wrong - being manipulated into thinking it's a bad outcome, when it's not.

Also I think this is not a discussion for this FC. It's out of topic.
 

Graymouse

yoroshiku onegaishimasu
I can't believe this club has reached 300 pages. There must be a lot of things to talk about our favorite couple. I can't wait to watch their relationship grow in the second game. One thing is for sure, these two are a slooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww burn!

Although, what we have already seen in the Remake, it seems like that might not be the case this time around! :excited:
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Oh trust me, it will still be slow :muhaha: Because Cloud is not right in the head right now, he's clearly not ready for a relationship - although, he's learning fast! And also both think the other don't like them that way! Thinking about Tifa full of insecurities when she's just stunning lol. But yeah there's a lot left before they can truly reunite ;) We are going to agonise over this!
 
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