Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[KindOfBlue]

The Japanese are absolute masters in the sacred hidden art of ship teasing...they’ll give you just enough of a taste to get your heart racing but leave you wanting more and more every time.

Before you know it, you’re hooked. Looking at fanart, reading fanfiction, getting into arguments with strangers online, watching compilations and AMVs...In the wrong hands, this forbidden secret power could topple entire civilizations.

“But what did she mean by ‘words aren’t the only way to tell someone how you feel—” Ah! Hush, child...For it is the will of the planet that all who are bound to her divine providence shall be destined to an everlasting desire for satisfaction. A thirst, if you will, only to be quenched as the rain falls upon the earth we will one day return to.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Although, what we have already seen in the Remake, it seems like that might not be the case this time around!

This is actually my bet, I'm still saying that the hug from part one has to be topped in the next episode

 

[KindOfBlue]

This is actually my bet, I'm still saying that the hug from part one has to be topped in the next episode

Y-You don’t mean...h-holding hands, do you...? ???

For real though, if there’s ever a time to have them kiss it would probably be under the Highwind. At least until after the Lifestream scene, I don’t see them really smacking us in the face with the romance too much so that the reveal isn’t ruined, maybe about as much as this game did if not a bit more. So until then, how far do y’all think they can go?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Y-You don’t mean...h-holding hands, do you...? ???

For real though, if there’s ever a time to have them kiss it would probably be under the Highwind. At least until after the Lifestream scene, I don’t see them really smacking us in the face with the romance too much so that the reveal isn’t ruined, maybe about as much as this game did if not a bit more. So until then, how far do y’all think they can go?

The fact that the remake will probably take 10 years to be finish makes me think that this won't be the case, you can't do "will they won't they" for such a long time period, because that will definitely get old.
That's why I think the devs will probably say fuck it and just go all in. Like I can see them give Cloud and Tifa a kiss in part two, while still keeping their relationship status kinda vague as long as Aerith is around. I mean don't get me wrong there will still be ltd shenanigans, but I still think something big is coming

 

[Eerie]

Maybe, but since this hug wasn't a romantic one, they still can have a romantic hug before anything else. That's probably the next step, as to leave a kiss under the Highwind ^^'

 

[a_apple 2.0]

but since this hug wasn't a romantic one

how was that hug not romantic lol
Like only our fandom would look at that scene and go "yep, just two buddies hugging it out"

 

[Eerie]

It was emotional, it tied them up, but it's not a romantic one. What I mean is romance was not the purpose of this hug; and I think that if we have another hug, then romance will be the purpose of the hug. In that sense, it will be romantic.

Also you'd be surprised by how many people claim that it has absolutely no romantic undertone.

 

[Graymouse]

You can hug someone without it being romantic. Case in point, He saw how Barrett hugged and comforted Tifa after the plate disaster and wanted to do the same. So the hug scene was mostly Cloud wanting to comfort Tifa. That is why the hug was so awkward. Now if we are talking about the dialog before the hug, I feel that it had romantic undertones, because of the past experiences that the two closely share.

At that point in the game, I feel that these two are slowly starting to understand that they both share an important part of each others lives.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, the hug by itself wasn’t romantic given the circumstances. If you already know their feelings, then the shippy scenes will likely stand out even more but for the most part, I still think they’ll want to save the juicy stuff (holding hands, cuddling, kissing, implied sex) for after the Lifestream. Until then, I could see them continuing the trends of the first game if not elevating them slightly:
- flashbacks (especially during Nibelheim)
- physical contact with them saving each other
- flirty/suggestive dialogue, hinting at their feelings
- another reference to the promise at the well
- Gold Saucer date scene
- almost kissing, but maybe now not through circumstance like jumping off the train in the Corkscrew Tunnel
- another hug, but maybe under more romantic circumstances or initiated by Cloud?

 

[Shadowfox]

The hug is sweet because they are both comforting each other after their traumatic experiences and they're opening up to each other. But I don't see it being done for purely romantic purposes. At the most, I think the scene, the emotions shared, and the quiet affirmation of their bond, as a step towards building intimacy between them for when the actual romance finally comes into play.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I agree, I mean a romance without much actual friendship is quite...“hollow”

 

[Shadowfox]

That said, though, it doesn't mean that the shipper in me didn't squeal in delight at watching the scene

 

[KindOfBlue]

Thank God Nojima suggested they had Cloud hug her back and even had them film that scene again because man that would’ve suuuuuucked

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I totally disagree with the idea that Cloud and Tifas hug was platonic, I agree that Cloud wanted to comfort Tifa but the moment it finally happens you can tell that Cloud is suddenly over come with new emotions, also the way how it's shot the way how the music swells when he finally hugs her, them standing in that flower field, all that stuff has a clear romantic connotation, and Cloud not letting go of Tifa and hugging her so hard it hurts is also a typical shoujo trope

 

[Eerie]

To me, those emotions were also Cloud grieving that loss; it's important because it ties them, he finally is able to mourn what they lost, their village, their parents, their friends, their new place (sector 7 which he had adopted), the bar... To me it's really important because it waves their story together even more than if it was just a romantic notion, I'll admit. I know we all want a romantic hug, but I think we may get a real one later on.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, I think the scenery of it all is what gives it romantic vibes and of course Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other underlie this as well as many other interactions but it still plays it out with subtly compared to Aerith’s scene, still leaves enough to ponder what exactly do they feel for each other

 

[a_apple 2.0]

To me, those emotions were also Cloud grieving that loss; it's important because it ties them, he finally is able to mourn what they lost, their village, their parents, their friends, their new place (sector 7 which he had adopted), the bar...

I don't think that's what's happening in that scene, Cloud doesn't seem like he is heart broken about any of these things, when he approaches Tifa. He almost seems smug to me when he makes that Soldier comment, his entire behavior only changes when Tifa shows how hurt she is. Then you have that moment where Cloud literally twitches out after Tifa puts her head on his shoulder and THEN he finally hugs her back. I mean we know he wanted to do that back when he saw Barret hug her, but probably didn't know how to approach her. So his reaction is pretty strange if he just wanted to comfort a friend.
I think what's actually happening there is that all those emotions Cloud has for Tifa all those feelings he doesn't really understand or doesn't really know where they are stemming from hit him in that moment, that's why we are shown Cloud hugging Tifa a bit too hard because he loses himself in all those feelings.

 

[Eerie]

I feel it's a bit different; yeah at the beginning, I agree, he's trying to show up a front and playing it cool, but he's overwhelmed by Tifa's feelings. He's wanted to comfort her for 2 chapters already, but still hesitating, and I feel that when he finally does, that's also when he mourns the things they've lost. I don't know, it really depends I guess, but the pronoums in JP aren't clear - is Tifa talking about everything SHE lost or THEY lost? I feel the significance may be very different - in French she uses "I", in English "we", in JP it's not clear I think?

I *do* agree that his feelings surface also in this scene, but I'd argue that they're not the primary focus of the scene.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I...can’t make out what exactly is going on in Cloud’s head in that scene because I’m not sure Cloud even knows what’s happening in his own head lol

Him trying to be cool saying “it’s a SOLDIER” thing is the most Cloud thing ever but we all know he’s a big softie...I like the awkwardness of him hugging her too tight, almost like he needed a bit of that hug as well but hey it took him some time to learn how to high five, surely he’ll perfect his huggging technique by the end of the remake

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I mean Cloud is not like Sephiroth, he lived a pretty normal life as a kid and had a very loving mother he just didn't have friends(hence the high five thing), but he definitely knows what a hug is lol. The difference with Tifa is just that he never hugged a girl in that way before so he went a bit overboard. Like I said it's a pretty common Shoujo trope

 

[Eerie]

For Cloud, what made me consider this was what he tells to Aerith in chapter 18 "I've heard enough of cries". I know some cloti fans think he's thinking about Tifa's tears in chapter 14, but the guy lost his mum, his village, his friends... I do feel that in Remake, the devs are trying to wave in more Cloud and Tifa's past - namely because she was often accused of having no background and no goal in the OG, but the truth is that her own background and Cloud's are so neatly tied that you can't really distinguish them. So we ought to understand that what Tifa has lost, Cloud has, too. Even if she opens up like this, and it's her who's being overwhelmed by her feelings, Cloud follows because in the end, he too suffers those.

Also a_apple, I think you're forgetting that Cloud has a SOLDIER's strength too! So yeah, it is a shoujo trope, but you have to understand that the guy didn't realise he must be careful

 

[a_apple 2.0]

but his Soldier powers were never portrayed in that way tho, like he takes the hands of the girls all the time without breaking bones or hurting them

Edit:
Now that I think about it he is actually really delicate with them

 

[Stiggie]

Many cloti fans don't like the idea of Cloud ever liking Aerith romantically because... they feel robbed I guess? When people get attached to something (or "their idea of something"), is hard to let go. Even we wouldn't be here spilling different takes left and right if that wasn't the case, and this is a club of like-minded people.

Then, on my part, I honestly get where they are coming from. There is a choice mechanics built into the game so you can decide "how the story is going to play out", favoring one girl over the other, but then stuff happens, the power of choice is taken from you, but the game continues. You keep playing, and then find out the whole backstory of the protagonist you are roleplaying as is intimately tied to only "one of the options", so, well, you get this kind of mindset. These are people who chose Tifa while playing through disc 1, and then finished the game. Their mind is set on that take.

But hey, there are some other shipping formulas:

• People who chose Aerith and let go (after watching how everything played out) = Casual gamer who doesn't care / some clotis;
• People who chose Aerith and never let go = Hardcore clerith;
• People who chose Tifa and let go (for whatever reason) = Casual gamer who doesn't care / some clerith;
• People who chose Tifa and never let go = Hardcore Clotis (I gonna add casual clotis here too, because honestly, the plot doesn't let me put them anywhere else).

In the end, I still think is irrelevant, because the conclusion of the story was the same whether he loved her or not. She IS/WAS very important to him and the rest of the cast, and no one can take that away from her, because that's in the story. This is the same reason why I think Cloud's feeling towards Aerith are never addressed in any suplemental material, because they are on you, the player (it's like, "here, you bought the game, you do what you like"). Sadly to some, his feeling towards Tifa are NOT on us, they are part of the story, and that too, is something that cannot be taken away from her.

This is all in he context of the OG though, becase the compilation is very telling on how everything went with Tifa. If it wasn't the case, why keep coming back to those feelings (Last Order, CC)? Why keep coming back to Tifa's heartaches (Case of Tifa, AC)? Why keep coming back to the relationship between those two (literally the rest of the compilation)? Why no go back to his relationship with Aerith (we only see flashbacks of her death...)?

{{{ In AC his feelings towards Aerith are only addressed as guilt, and put in parallel with his feelings towards Zack, because whether he loved her or not, is irrelevant. You don't have to love someone to carry the burden of their death when you think it was your fault, specially if that other person was your friend and was murdered right in front of you. }}}

For me personally I suppose it's not that I feel robbed, or that I think it's impossible to feel things for multiple women, it's just that this specific situation is one where I find the idea of Cloud having noteworthy romantic feelings for Aerith to be preposterous.

I think this whole discussion about him being able to love both as a way to make it all valid requires me to ignore a few things that I can't ignore.

1: I fundamentally don't believe it's possible to develop anything more than a superficial attraction to a person in a week. I just find the idea that you could truly speak of love in such a timespan to minimize the concept of love. Even "romantic" feelings sounds too grand to me for that. A week is enough to know that a person is fun to be around, and they give you an erection, that's about it.

2: I fundamentally don't believe it's possible to speak of love at all when you are not in a right mindset. I don't even think the feelings I have while drunk can be really considered to be very valid and Cloud seems worse than that. So I definitely don't think a person who spend a week with someone while drunk can develop love. A dependency maybe, not love. Love requires a deep appreciation of a person based on an understanding of who they are to you. That requires you to know both who you are, and who they are.

3: I think Cloud especially is EXTREMELY pre-occupied with being a soldier and not even thinking about romancing Aerith, meaning that even if some dopamine is released while near her I doubt he'd actually even have the conscious thought needed to distinguish a chemical reaction from an actual "infatuation".

4: I think that whatever romantic feelings drunk cloud would have had would have been basically overwritten by the far more "cloudesque" feeling of guilt over letting her die.

5: And if any emotion that could still be recognized and categorized by Cloud as romantic affection somehow managed to survive all that then I still don't see that surviving the existence of Tifa, a girl he's known and longed for his entire life.


Yeah, people can have feelings for multiple people, but in reality, having the girl of your dreams actually at your side tends to really help become disinterested towards potential exes or other girls that you flirted with this one time. Especially when you never even got the chance to think about someone romantically until much later.

I mean, sure, I've been attracted to other women, I've had my heart skip a beat by people who honestly I couldn't care less about now. None of that diminished what I feel for the woman I love. But actually loving someone has definitely caused me to both no longer see those other emotions as much more than instinctual reactions, and has definitely made me feel and remember them as more platonic.

So yeah, while I agree that technically Cloud could like Aerith romantically and not have it diminish Tifa, I think that disproportionate representation of Tifa in his life, makes it so that him still having noteworthy romantic feelings for a girl he only knew for a week, is extremely unlikely, and would be insulting to some degree. It's like me still thinking back fondly to a one night stand, technically not an insult to my GF of 7 years, but at some point being with someone should naturally lead you to find it silly to think about "that one girl", if the girl you're with is truly equal.

The big thing for me there I think is the fact that I don't think Cloud was able to think about Aerith in a romantic way until after he was already with Tifa, and at that point it is a bit insulting. Like hearing years later that a girl was giving you hints, and being upset that you didn't do something about it, even though you've now been dating someone else for a while.

Fake Cloud: " too messed up and preoccupied to think about Aerith romantically".
Real Cloud: " too messed up from guilt and preoccupied with Tifa to think about Aerith romantically".

The timing basically makes it so that all I can call the emotion is "nervousness".

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, I think Cloud never being aware that Aerith or Tifa like him (until the Lifestream in Tifa’s case) speaks to how dense he can be with these things. Until we get concrete information on the magnitude of his feelings for them compared to one another, we could only really extrapolate based on our own understanding of romance which inevitably leads to people butting heads.

I’ve said it before but I really hope they go somewhere with Aerith’s “you can’t fall in love with me” line. I know romance isn’t the main focus of the story, but I wonder how Aerith’s seemingly new knowledge influences her motivations with Cloud. Perhaps she determines that he needs to remember his truest self first in order for him to fairly make a choice for himself?

Surely she’s aware that Tifa fits in the equation somewhere and after seeing the flower in Seventh Heaven, maybe that’s when she realizes she shouldn’t let Cloud get too close? Not that he won’t still at least develop a crush and get hurt when she dies, but perhaps she understands her death is ultimately a step towards Cloud and Tifa’s romance developing?

What a turn of events it would be to have Aerith of all people be the biggest Cloud x Tifa shipper. I mean, sure she has her own feelings for Cloud too but she also knows a relationship between them isn’t very viable. Still though, I guess it’s natural that she’ll at least wanna enjoy some of it while she can, but I wonder if she thinks it’s unfair to lead him on while also knowing she’s going to die. I’m definitely gonna be paying attention to whether or not Aerith tries to nudge Cloud and Tifa together more.

 

[Phantasia]

But she already told him the reason he can't fall in love with her... "And even if you think you have, is not real (is your imagination)". She didn't say "pointless" or something like that, she said "not real". Her argument is not something about her, but something about him.

When you factor in Jenova, her mimic abilities, the Cetra thing and the whole "is a fantasy video game", we have a mess where normal arguments about what's behind certain situations are not going to take us anywhere.