Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

[Ruri]

@Cat on Mars
Oh I completely agree with that. Tifa lost her mother, her father and the one kid who was genuine about her, also said adios at the water tower. Then Nibelheim. In her childhoods days, and without all this baggage I expect she was a very different kid. But that stuff, it takes a toll and I think it shows in her hesitance and over worrying as an adult. I'm just glad she gets to settle down with Cloud when all is said and done. She deserves whatever happy ending she wants and it was definitely Cloud.

 

[Graymouse]

Tifa and Cloud both have been through a lot. I could only imagine how it would feel to have your entire village burned to the ground. Everything and everyone body you knew was killed or destroyed. Everything that was precious to her was taken away. The only thing Tifa had left is the hope, that by a very small chance that Cloud made it out alive. By her holding on that very fragile thread of existence deep in her heart tells all you need to know about Tifa. It could be argued it was that alone, just the small chance that she would one day be reunited with Cloud is what kept her going for so long.

When the Reunion finally happened on that fateful day at the Sector 7 train station, it was less than joyous because she knew that something was not right about her childhood friend. He forgot things that he should know, and knew things that he shouldn't. The pain inside her would be unbearable. The one person sitting there by himself, the one person that she had a connection to from her past is sick, and she has no way to cure him. All that she can do is watch, in painful silence as Cloud suffers. Trying to figure out how to help him.

These two deserve a real happy ending that leaves no doubt to anyone. They can and will have couple problems, but they deserve to live the rest of their lives together, in happiness and not regretful in any way.

 

[DutchDread]

I feel that Cloud X Tifa shippers are more accepting of the other side when it comes to LTD. Why is that? Do you suppose?

Short version: Because Aerith is dead, and Cloud wasn't himself, that means that Cloti works whether Cloud liked Aerith or not.
Cloud could have loved Aerith more than anything in the world, but the fact that she's dead and he wasn't himself means that it really doesn't matter much. Clerith doesn't have that blanket, they need to convince you that despite Aeriths death and Clouds broke psyche, he STILL likes Aerith more.

For that to be reasonable, they require him to like Aerith more to an absurd degree, to the point that any romantic feelings towards Tifa would ruin it, because they understand, if Cloud has ANY romantic feelings towards Tifa, then after spending a few years together, he won't be thinking about Aerith. Which is unacceptable to them, because they apparently want Cloud to be miserable, never move on, and keep living in a fantasy world. They want everything that goes against the themes of FFVII. So in a way, they've declared war on FFVII, on it's plot, on it's themes, on everything. They're in the position of both loving FFVII (how they think it should be) and hating FFVII (how it is), and in war, you entrench yourself.

The famous quote, from this site: 'In order to prove Clerith, you need to fist disprove Cloti' still rings true to this very day.

The end result being you have those less vocal Cleriths who just like Cloud and Aerith, but acknowledge the story sets up Cloud and Tifa, but you also have that very vocal disgruntled group who feel the need to defend what they percieve as the original canon ship. The more time and energy they sunk into the argument, the more they were unwilling to accept the argument they were defending was wrong (I'm not saying shipping Clerith is wrong, just yelling about them being canon is).

Basically this.


About young Tifa, I don't think it's been portrayed differently form the OG, Tifa was ALWAYS open and wanting Cloud to join, Tifa was just like that to everyone, it's Cloud's own behavior that prevented it, like he says in the OG, it wasn't Tifas fault, he was the childish one. The "are you ignoring me" line shows that, that's Tifa extending a hand, and Cloud not accepting it. Not because he didn't want to be Tifas friend, but because he wanted her for himself.

Tifa sees their relationship the way she tries to treat Cloud, friendly, because, from her point of view, that's how she interacted with him, and therefore, how she remembers the interactions. She always had friends around, so the 10% of the time she might have been hanging out with Cloud, she perceived as positive, because she didn't want anything from him, but for him, he was 90% lonely, and he wanted more. So the differences in experiences aren't to be marveled at, plus, the events that happened after also colored her memories of course.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I crack up when I hear people say that that Cloud was bullied as kid. Cloud was an asshole, acting like he was better than anyone and he wasn't included in Tifa's circle of friends because he was a condescending prick.
And you know, by Japanese standards, he was a total asshole. Acting like you're all superior and stuff is the pinnacle of asshole behaviour there. No wonder he got in fights quite regularly.
When Tifa says in the Remake that Cloud isn't a people person, there's a reason for that.

 

[Graymouse]

One of the most impactful 36 mins of the entire game in my opinion. Talk about your "earned ship". The entire sequence shows how deep Cloud and Tifa's relationship goes. It is not a love at first sight attraction or skin deep. It is much deeper, much more emotional.

 

[Master Bates]

^Cloud's face right there always cracks me up! lmao

 

[DutchDread]

^Cloud's face right there always cracks me up! lmao

I always find Tifas face to be particularly hilarious.

 

[Master Bates]

I always find Tifas face to be particularly hilarious.

I agree. They're both hilarious, but there's just something with Cloud's steady look. Like he has seen things and he knows what's up but can't do anything about it. Like a silent "Oh, shit!""

 

[Cat on Mars]

Cloud looks like his soul has already left his body and awaits the sweet release of death. Tifa's alarmed expression is oddly fitting and that makes it even funnier somehow.

 

[DutchDread]

I agree. They're both hilarious, but there's just something with Cloud's steady look. Like he has seen things and he knows what's up but can't do anything about it. Like a silent "Oh, shit!""

I'd say he's sitting there doing a perpetual "WHAT THE FUCK IS SHE DOING!?", and Tifa is the one going "OH SHIT! What the fuck AM I doing?!"

It's the combo that makes it work.

 

[Graymouse]

Yeah, at this point in the game, Cloud is just a shell of himself. This can be clearly seen, even with the blocky PS1 next gen graphics.

 

[MasterMoogle]

^Cloud's face right there always cracks me up! lmao

It's a face that screams "I'm gonna die before I get to motorboat those utters . . . please help!"

 

[minami758]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267949136747233280

Ahhhh! I had never realized this before?? How did I never notice this. I pulled up a playthrough and yeah he only stops to look at the water tower and Tifa's house. Damn that's a crazy detail.

Okay I gotta bring up the Kalm flashback again. Dug a little bit and if you talk to real!Cloud in the flashback, you can have the following conversation:

real!Cloud/Infantryman: Man, I'm so nervous...
Cloud: (How come?) or (I'm excited)
(How come?)
real!Cloud/Infantryman: Look, you never know when a monster's gonna show up, right?
(I'm excited)
real!Cloud/Infantryman: ...That's right. Don't blow your chance to become a hero...

 

[Cat on Mars]

Just to reiterate what kind of unlikeable asshole Cloud was as a kid and why only his mom loved him:

Cloud
I used to think... they were all stupid.

Tifa
What!?

Cloud
You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing.

Tifa
But we were children, back then.

Cloud
...I know. I'm the one that was stupid.
I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group.
Then later... I began to think I was different...
That I was different from those immature kids.
That then... maybe...

Just maybe, they would invite me in.
I thought that might happen, so I hung around...

Cloud
I was so prejudiced. And... weak.

That night I called Tifa out to the well...
I thought to myself Tifa would never come... that she hated me.

He was so fucking awful that expected Tifa to hate him.
But well, at least he got things right... eventually.

 

[Graymouse]

Just to reiterate what kind of unlikeable asshole Cloud was as a kid and why only his mom loved him:


He was so fucking awful that expected Tifa to hate him.
But well, at least he got things right... eventually.

Oh, yeah Cloud was a jerk growing up. To everyone, including the girl he liked. He just wanted to play with everyone so he said, I think he just wanted to get closer to Tifa. When Cloud said that "you" wouldn't let me in the group. Not sure if the "you" is being used as a pronoun for the group or "you" being used for Tifa specifically? I think it is "you guys" never let me into the group. Many everyone as a group.

Tifa, mentioned that she was shocked that Cloud asked her out. I wonder what went through Tifa's mind when Cloud asked her out onto the water tower? "the cute boy from next door finally had the nerve to ask me out to the water tower?" "I better dress up" Then when she found out that he is leaving town, in her desperation to stay in touch she convinced Cloud to make the promise. The rest is history.

I am really interested in how they will do the Lifestream sequence in the Remake. I think it will be mind blowing!

 

[Cat on Mars]

I think Cloud meant that his actions and behavior weren't tolerated by the kids so he wasn't allowed to join the group. If he ignored Tifa when she called him, Tifa's friends would be annoyed: if he snubs Tifa, they'd feel he's snubbing them, too. I doubt they want him around after that.

I think things changed after she fell and got badly injured in Mount Nibel, and somehow, that piqued her curiosity. Maybe she wondered why the usually serious and aloof kid wanted to be by her side when all her friends went back to the village? Maybe by the time Cloud was planning on leaving Nibelheim, Tifa was seriously interested in getting to know him and that childish promise was the best thing Tifa could think of then to make sure they would meet again. Because they didn't know each other that well but Tifa knew Cloud was serious because he was always serious. I think they've always had an interesting dynamic going on, even without shipping goggles.

I really want to see the Lifestream scene so bad now.

 

[Graymouse]

Cloud started ignoring Tifa after the Mt. NIbel fall. I would think the reason for Cloud ignoring Tifa was the direct consequence of being scolded by Tifa's dad. Cloud was blamed for taking Tifa out to Mt. Nibel. I find it strange that it never occurred to her father that maybe his daughter went out there on her own because she was grieving her mother. None of Tifa's so called friends went out on the bridge with her to make sure she will be alright. but instead chickened out. Only one spiky haired kid went onto the bridge to make sure she will be ok, and then at the end of it gets blamed for the entire thing.

 

[odekopeko]

But in Cloud's defense, I remember there was some dialog between him and Tifa while they were on their quests, where she tells him he's a nice guy, she just didn't notice it when they were kids. (Or did I dream this scene up?) I think he can be pretty helpful and nice to people the more he spends time with them. I mean, just look at how he was around the Avalanche members.

Also, when boys and girls like the same guy, the rivalry can get ugly. I think those kids just didn't like him because Tifa was always trying to be nice to him, and they liked her, so they probably found him annoying too.

I do hope they show us a little bit more of their childhood. The scene when he's walking with Aerith, and he gets that vision of Young Tifa turning around and smiling to him, leads me to believe she actually did get him to play before. She's wearing the same dress she was in when she said, "Are you ignoring me again?" And you see the same kids that were hanging around her in the bg in that flashback. But Tifa was smiling happily at him before those kids called her, and then she turned around. I don't think this is a false memory?

 

[Cat on Mars]

I don't think Cloud is an asshole but he sure acted like one out of his own insecurities and he made sure nobody would lke him. He felt inadequate so he retreated to fantasies of "being better than those silly kids" or how I like to call it, "sour grapes".
And maybe Tifa's friends also liked her, but I think they were more annoyed by Cloud's constant snubbing than anything else, children are pretty inconsistent in their afections and use to like or dislike someone at the drop of a hat, one day they hate each other's guts and the the they are best friends and vice versa.
Maybe the Remake will expand this a bit, but it's easy to see that the rest of the village didn't seem to like Cloud and probably pitied her mother. That's just how things are, if all the kids tell their parents that "the weird kid" is a problem and he gets in fights all the time with almost everyone, what are the adults going to think?
But I've always thought Tifa's dad was an asshole too, laying the blame squarely on Cloud when he should have been with her very young and distressed daughter and watching her closely. I understand he would be devastated after her spouse's death, but Tifa needed him.
But paternity is hard work so i'ts easier to just blame the kid nobody likes if you fuck things up.
And of course, nobody was going to defend Cloud because Brian Lockhart was a recent widow and now a single dad and how will he raise her daughter alone? He needed all the pity points! So it's that weird kid's fault, no questions asked.
Sometimes adults can be more inmature and selfish than children, specially when they're hurting.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what I like of this scenario: everybody is a jerk and the kids suffer the consequences even if they can't help but act like kids, Cloud was well-meaning but misguided and Tifa was grieving and reckless. Everybody likes the easy answers and comfortable lies and fairness is a luxury because when something goes wrong, people like to point fingers and blame everyone but themselves.
It just feels realistic when people act his worst at his worst, you know? Not everybody can be compassionate in the face of adversity.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Good Lord, Ryu! I didn't want to publicly name the guy here, but yeah it was Shrouded Light (a.k.a. Shroudy). And now that you mention it, he is Giddy Unicorn here (I honestly forgot his TLS registered name until you mentioned it). Oh yeah he did that too. Jeez, that takes me back. But I wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and think that there was some profound reason and purpose behind what he used to do. He was an interesting character.

Although I'm more stunned to know that you went out from lurking and posted in reply to that specific post of mine. Now I feel like to summon you we only need to cast "Shroudy" like a spell.

You just happened to catch me while I was on the thread and had relevant knowledge. I need to get back into the habit of posting regularly.

That's the most unhinged thing I've heard about shipping.
Holy shit.
Poor kids, I hope they gave them free snacks and soda and a huge candy bag later to ease the pain. I bet some of them will bond over their shared trauma.

Please tell me you are joking. That is way out in left field. I know we all joke around at how crazy some of these super ship fandoms are but this has got to be the most bizarre one I have ever read.

I doubt it actually happened, but it was a thing he said he did.

I noticed.
About that spirit sex fanfiction, I searched for it but came back empty-handed, it has been throghly scrubbed from the internet. Do you have a copy or archived version?
Back then I didn't archive it and I regret that decision now.

I didn't archive that fic, too. Guess I just assumed it's going to stay in the interwebs for a looong, looooong time. So it got deleted? A shame. But I'll try to make my own search and see if I can find some traces of it left.

I still have a copy of it, as it turns out, because I make backups of everything.

Back to that second grade class. How old would they be now? Do you think some of them are now playing or have played the Remake? Should that be the case, I wonder if from playing the game they're reminded of that "one guy who made them watch confusing action animu in second grade class"? I'm genuinely curious.

If it happened, it happened over twelve years ago now, I think.

 

[Final_Heaven]

But in Cloud's defense, I remember there was some dialog between him and Tifa while they were on their quests, where she tells him he's a nice guy, she just didn't notice it when they were kids. (Or did I dream this scene up?) I think he can be pretty helpful and nice to people the more he spends time with them. I mean, just look at how he was around the Avalanche members.

Also, when boys and girls like the same guy, the rivalry can get ugly. I think those kids just didn't like him because Tifa was always trying to be nice to him, and they liked her, so they probably found him annoying too.

I do hope they show us a little bit more of their childhood. The scene when he's walking with Aerith, and he gets that vision of Young Tifa turning around and smiling to him, leads me to believe she actually did get him to play before. She's wearing the same dress she was in when she said, "Are you ignoring me again?" And you see the same kids that were hanging around her in the bg in that flashback. But Tifa was smiling happily at him before those kids called her, and then she turned around. I don't think this is a false memory?

That was the end of Chapter 14 if you did all the sidequests.

I think it's mentioned in the Ultimania that Tifa didn't really see much of this kind side of him when they were young.

I used to think that the flashback was Tifa on her way to Mt. Nibel but why would she smile like that? So I think it's meant to be a memory where he did hang out with her.

 

[DutchDread]

My life this past month.

 

[Eerie]

Well I think the reasonable cleriths don't debate in LTD threads because well, they know Cloud has moved on. So it's the more extreme ones who are left there... which honestly wears me out lol (aside some exceptions).

 

[Ruri]

@DutchDread, for the record, I love your essay posts. The bit in the LTD about Cloud/Tifa being the real star crossed lovers was a great read. I see all the energy you're spending in order to enlighten more people to this relationship and it isn't going unnoticed or appreciated!

This is still the best place for it. Reddit is a toxic hellhole, tumblr and twitter is where people keep to their fandom corners which don't really mix except to bash heads so there's no actual discussion any where.

 

[Final_Heaven]

I mean I've seen Remake make a streamer a Clerith. (They watched Advent Children a decade before and loved the movie though)

And then they played the original and once they got the Lifestream reveal, they admitted to their disappointment that the story 100% pushes Tifa and Cloud together more (they haven't even gotten to the Highwind scene yet) and that the narrative the OG pushes is that whatever feelings Aerith and Cloud may have for each other are magnetized because Cloud is part-Zack.

But still feels that Aerith complements Cloud better because Tifa and Cloud are too similar and that OG! Cloud isn't Zack in his personality besides mannerisms so Aerith still must have interacted with some aspect of the real Cloud.