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Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I never really get random ships between characters who never really interact. I mean, sure, Zack and Tifa talk a bit in CC, but show zero sign of being interested in each other, why would people ship that?

People love to crackship. If you only ship the canon pairings, that can be boring. There's nothing wrong with shipping non-canon pairings. It's when you say "but they are canon" that it's a problem, but most people understand that concept.
 

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
@Sasseli that was poor wording and timing, I wasn't calling you a "rabid shipper". I was addressing your point (in jest, I might add) and then said some shippers are too serious.
But you're right, that kind of talk should go to the Cesspool and I apologize.

@DutchDread it's called a crackship for a reason. It doesn't make sense, it's crazy logic at work.
But I'd say that Zack and Tifa interact more than it would seem, I was surprised by how much she opened up to him in CC. If you're buying that Zack and Cloud were BFF when they barely see each other out of work and Zack and Aerith had a romantic relationship even if they rarely seee each other and Cloud and Aerith get close in days, Tifa and Zack being friends in a few days sounds par for the course with how relationships develop in FFVII.

And of course it'd morally wrong for Zack to get himself involved with his friend's crush while having a girlfriend, that's not even debatable. But you can't have an interesting or provocative story when everyone always do the right thing AND relative morality applies when it's convenient. Case in point: Zerith. People love Zerith and I dislike it, because surely Aerith withholding important info about who she is, and why Zack is being spied on as result is a moral dilemma, right?
Not for shippers.
And this is what I don't like. Who gets to decide what's a deal-breaker for ships and not? Just like all that stuff about Tifa and Zack's ages mentioned above: yes, it's a morally grey area because he's an older teen than her... but his mental age is younger so they're pretty even. If you find it icky and feel it's wrong, I'm not going to try to convince you shouldn't feel like that, you're entitled to your opion and preferences.

As closing statement and I swear I'll keep myself on topic from now on:
For the longest time, I couldn't even like Clerith/CloTi/Zerith because they were so *~*~* pure and wholesome *~*~* , and I'm still bitter about that "and by the way, Zack and Aerith's relationship was so perfect than we're going to describe it as platonic for a Ultimania" when their relationship was only perfect on surface level and swept a lot of unsavory stuff under the carpet just for the story's sake.

Any human relationship portrayed as "perfect" is boring at best and terrible example of how relationships work at worst, Twilight being the poster series for it.
I've seen people HERE talk harshly about Aerith's behaviour, like how she'd be a bitch if she gets between Cloud and Tifa knowing their complicated relationship (he's still single, let him choose!) and I'm here like "hello? that's exactly what she did in the OG, Aerith gave no fucks about others' feelings as longs as SHE could have fun."
Do you have to like that? No, of course not. I don't, but I always found her a more believable and interesting character when she could be greedy and self-centered and not a total pink Jesus.
That being said, that's why I like her better in the Remake, her personality seems to have been developed with nuance and she's a good girl (this time, for real) because she seems to know that you don't fuck with people's feelings just for fun, like she did in the OG.

Tld; dr: this is a clash between tumblr internet culture (I know most of you come from tumblr) and Wild West internet culture (me). Don't take it personal because this is internet and it isn't serious business.
Anyway, I'll (mostly) behave from now on.
You have my word.
 
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Sasseli

~*:Newbie:*~
This still isn't the place for crack ships though, is it? :P (Half-serious, because I don't get to decide, which is totally fine!)

I do think, the age difference at that age is a bit much. 15 is still very child-like in my eyes. You're a legal grown-up at 18, 15 is still far from that. And imagining a 15- year- old girl fucking around (while waiting for her blond soldier all along...), I find that mildly unsettling.

Could we end this discussion here for those reasons? Pwease? :scared:

@Cat on Mars Oh, you were quicker! Sorry.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
People love to crackship. If you only ship the canon pairings, that can be boring. There's nothing wrong with shipping non-canon pairings. It's when you say "but they are canon" that it's a problem, but most people understand that concept.

Crack ships, by their very nature, are fun. Either because they get you high (like high from 'crack') or they crack you up. But most people who crack ship are entirely aware of the ship's implausibility. Ships that are cracked they can't even stay afloat, and so they sink below the putrescent waters of the bermuda triangle where they belong, where they party with all the fishy people. But it's all in good fun. I've not seen a single crackshipper who seriously insists their crackship is canon nor be treated with such weight. It's just shit and giggles (and a 'healthy' dose of delusion and harmless character assassination).

Canon ships, which heavily depend on canon source materials and thus limit themselves to the material, cannot possibly dream of experiencing this kind of unhinged freedom and fun. Crackships also avoid debates and rivalries with other canonically plausible ships, precisely because they're crack and, hence, a 'non-threat', which only adds to the sense of freedom.

I'm perfectly aware this is the CloTi thread. Just putting my two cents on the appeal of crackships (to me, at least).
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
More of mo-cap duo!


and some context on the first photo


It's a nice heads up that remake work is on-going and that Cloud/Tifa mo-cap actors are working together. Can't really ask for much better.

I am really glad that work is being done on the game, during all that is going on in the world these days. I think that is really nice to see that. I can't wait to see what they have in store for these two in Part 2. It is especially cute that these two are "like"ing (sp?) all the Cloud X Tifa tweets.

On the current discussion, crack ships are called crack ships for a reason. You don't need to think too much on them.

Cloud and Tifa's mo-cap actors from Shibai Haruka's (Tifa's mo-cap actress) twitter!


and then they both went on a cloti liking spree lmao



If my Japanese is correct, which it probably is not. I think that the last part of the tweet: It looks like they were doing some action scenes because someone was nervous because it was their first time pulling on someones legs? Ganbarimashita! (good luck)
 
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Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
Crack ships, by their very nature, are fun. Either because they get you high (like high from 'crack') or they crack you up. But most people who crack ship are entirely aware of the ship's implausibility. Ships that are cracked they can't even stay afloat, and so they sink below the putrescent waters of the bermuda triangle where they belong, where they party with all the fishy people. But it's all in good fun. I've not seen a single crackshipper who seriously insists their crackship is canon nor be treated with such weight. It's just shit and giggles (and a 'healthy' dose of delusion and harmless character assassination).

Canon ships, which heavily depend on canon source materials and thus limit themselves to the material, cannot possibly dream of experiencing this kind of unhinged freedom and fun. Crackships also avoid debates and rivalries with other canonically plausible ships, precisely because they're crack and, hence, a 'non-threat', which only adds to the sense of freedom.

I'm perfectly aware this is the CloTi thread. Just putting my two cents on the appeal of crackships (to me, at least).

Perfectly articulated by our Rufus/Tifa shipper, bravo!
I'm still waiting on the porn to judge that ship as hot or not, give me good arguments aka porn and I might make some myself.:monster:

I mean. I like Cloud and Tifa but their relationship have little wiggle room due to story constraints. Right now I'm planning on making some CloTi fanart and comic and even if it isn't difficult, it's not as easy and fun as, let's say, AerTi, because AerTi is made of strechy rubber in the story and CloTi is concrete blocks to support story development.
Multi-shipping requires you to take shipping easy, beause it wouldn't be possible to ship OT3, CloTi, AerTi, Clack and whatnot logically. You can argue until the cows come home if x character could be y's gay lover and z's hetero partner because there's nothing outright stating that's impossible in canon, but in the end it's all wishful thinking -as @Master Bates said, delusion.

Back to Cloud and Tifa.
How long did you think they spent living in Stargazer Heights? I don't have a clear idea of the timeline, and I could use some pointers for that Cloud/Tifa fanart I mentioned before, I like to take context into account before twisting it inside out.
 
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Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Back to Cloud and Tifa.
How long did you think they spent living in Stargazer Heights? I don't have a clear idea of the timeline, and I could use some pointers for that Cloud/Tifa fanart I mentioned before, I like to take context into account before twisting it inside out.

If we are going by in game time, I would say around 2 days and 2 nights. The night that Cloud comes to Sector 7 after the first bombing run he spent the night, Cloud spent the entire day in Sector 7, then that night he went out to Topside Sector 7 with Jessie and the crew. He returned to his room The next morning, he was woken up by Tifa due to the plot ghosts. Then after that I am assuming the last bombing mission was ran later that afternoon.

(speaking on head canon that I know is not true) That should give Tifa X Cloud a bit of time to get better acquainted with each other. nudge nudge.


:success:
 
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Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
If we are going by in game time, I would say around 2 days and 2 nights. The night that Cloud comes to Sector 7 after the first bombing run he spent the night, Cloud spent the entire day in Sector 7, then that night he went out to Topside Sector 7 with Jessie and the crew. He returned to his room The next morning, he was woken up by Tifa due to the plot ghosts. Then after that I am assuming the last bombing mission was ran later that afternoon.
(speaking on head canon that I know is not true) That should give Tifa X Cloud a bit of time to get better acquainted with each other. nudge nudge.

Yeah, that's not a lot of time, story-wise. Do quests count? As in, do quests add daytime? Does the game clock have sunrise/sunset circles? Like, just to know a bit more of context

Not that it matters because I'm developing my story with them during a whole summer month. :awesome:
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, that's not a lot of time, story-wise. Do quests count? As in, do quests add daytime? Does the game clock have sunrise/sunset circles? Like, just to know a bit more of context

Not that it matters because I'm developing my story with them during a whole summer month. :awesome:

I think total time was a day and half of daytime. Cloud arrived at early evening, spent the entire next day, spent part of the evening out with Jessie. Came home and talked to Tifa a bit and then went to sleep. Woken up by Tifa due to the plot ghosts, later that afternoon they set off for Reactor 5.

The entire summer! That sound really interesting. Can't wait! :lol:

Edited to add: Yeah I don't think the game has night/day cycles. That might be cool if they did that for part 2 though.
 

DutchDread

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Dutch Dread
@Sasseli that was poor wording and timing, I wasn't calling you a "rabid shipper". I was addressing your point (in jest, I might add) and then said some shippers are too serious.
But you're right, that kind of talk should go to the Cesspool and I apologize.

@DutchDread it's called a crackship for a reason. It doesn't make sense, it's crazy logic at work.
But I'd say that Zack and Tifa interact more than it would seem, I was surprised by how much she opened up to him in CC. If you're buying that Zack and Cloud were BFF when they barely see each other out of work and Zack and Aerith had a romantic relationship even if they rarely seee each other and Cloud and Aerith get close in days, Tifa and Zack being friends in a few days sounds par for the course with how relationships develop in FFVII.

And of course it'd morally wrong for Zack to get himself involved with his friend's crush while having a girlfriend, that's not even debatable. But you can't have an interesting or provocative story when everyone always do the right thing AND relative morality applies when it's convenient. Case in point: Zerith. People love Zerith and I dislike it, because surely Aerith withholding important info about who she is, and why Zack is being spied on as result is a moral dilemma, right?
Not for shippers.
And this is what I don't like. Who gets to decide what's a deal-breaker for ships and not? Just like all that stuff about Tifa and Zack's ages mentioned above: yes, it's a morally grey area because he's an older teen than her... but his mental age is younger so they're pretty even. If you find it icky and feel it's wrong, I'm not going to try to convince you shouldn't feel like that, you're entitled to your opion and preferences.

As closing statement and I swear I'll keep myself on topic from now on:
For the longest time, I couldn't even like Clerith/CloTi/Zerith because they were so *~*~* pure and wholesome *~*~* , and I'm still bitter about that "and by the way, Zack and Aerith's relationship was so perfect than we're going to describe it as platonic for a Ultimania" when their relationship was only perfect on surface level and swept a lot of unsavory stuff under the carpet just for the story's sake.

Any human relationship portrayed as "perfect" is boring at best and terrible example of how relationships work at worst, Twilight being the poster series for it.
I've seen people HERE talk harshly about Aerith's behaviour, like how she'd be a bitch if she gets between Cloud and Tifa knowing their complicated relationship (he's still single, let him choose!) and I'm here like "hello? that's exactly what she did in the OG, Aerith gave no fucks about others' feelings as longs as SHE could have fun."
Do you have to like that? No, of course not. I don't, but I always found her a more believable and interesting character when she could be greedy and self-centered and not a total pink Jesus.
That being said, that's why I like her better in the Remake, her personality seems to have been developed with nuance and she's a good girl (this time, for real) because she seems to know that you don't fuck with people's feelings just for fun, like she did in the OG.

Tld; dr: this is a clash between tumblr internet culture (I know most of you come from tumblr) and Wild West internet culture (me). Don't take it personal because this is internet and it isn't serious business.
Anyway, I'll (mostly) behave from now on.
You have my word.
I understand non-canon ships, I have ships that are non-canon, but it's always because they showed chemistry while interacting. I just personally don't see the appeal of having ships that seem absolutely random. Although I do have to admit, I have one single one as well. Hades from Disneys Hercules and Eris from dreamworks sinbad, because something about those two makes me feel like seeing them together would be amazing. But yeah, stuff like Tifa and Rufus just makes me go "what?", I mean, you do you, but I can't imagine 2 people who would be less into each other. Maybe Rufus into Tifa in a purely physical way, but the other way around? Ah well, like I said, you do you.

How long did you think they spent living in Stargazer Heights? I don't have a clear idea of the timeline, and I could use some pointers for that Cloud/Tifa fanart I mentioned before, I like to take context into account before twisting it inside out.

From the old official timeline they got back from the sector 1 bombing run on the 9th of december. That night Cloud sleeps at stargazer heights, then the next night he helps Jessie, and the morning after he leaves for Sector 5 and doesn't return until after the plate drop. So it seems like 1 day and 2 nights.

That having been said, I always used to assume there would be a BIT more time before the second bombing mission (2 or 3 days), but going by the text in the game it's pretty clear that it's just one day. (Tifa mentions specifically that Cloud would get his money the following day, and that ties directly to Jesses quest that same evening, which is stated to happen the day before the bombing run).

This was a bit disappointing to me since after I heard that Cloud would get an apartment next to Tifa I assumed he'd have been living there ever since september, which is when Tifa finds him according to the original timeline.

So now I am just left to wonder where he hung out before he got the stargazer heights location. I really don't like it if they changed it to Tifa finding him 1 day before the game or something, I always liked the idea of her helping him back on his feet.

Anyway, you might argue that the sidequests constitute a series of events over a few days, but it can't be much longer, because as I said, 9 December they return from the bombing run, and before the end of december Aerith is dead and Cloud has given the black materia to Sephiroth and has fallen into the lifestream, so we only have 3 weeks for all of that.

If I had to guess, at the timeline is this:

December:
9: Bombing reactor 1
10: Sidequests with Tifa, Jesse quest
11: Bombing reactor 7, falls through church at night/morning 12th.
12: Meet Aerith, sidequests, escape in the evening, Try to rescue Tifa from Don Corneo.
Sometime after entering Don Corneos house, and exiting the sewers, I think another day passes. And we get to the pillar at night on the 13th.
13: Train graveyard, the pillar, Aerith is taken to shinra HQ.
14: In morning, visit Marlene, then go help people of sector 7, at night, the ch 14 resolution happens.
15: Cloud and Co scale the walls. At night, enter Shinra HQ, Aerith is rescued, all that shit goes down.
16: One week after the start of the game, in the morning of the 16th, Cloud and co defeat the harbinger, fight Sephiroth, and leave Midgar as dawn breaks.

(I think Aerith dies another 1 week later, on the 23rd, and that the journey to the northern crater takes another week for it all to culminate on the 30th, that seems reasonable, the January timeline seems less reliable.).
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
When I say I am emotional to cloti family fanart, what I mean is this one makes me want to kick down a door.
SAME!
7ca9b6b96c89bb682002b3e33cb47224.jpg
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
In OG, SOLDIER!Cloud wavers between both heroines, however, the plot seems to push Aerith more. Your choices as a player also impact how you perceive the game in the first half since if you want you can favor Tifa (or none of them) as well. Post-Lifestream Cloud favors Tifa as he's finally able to recover his memories/feelings and who he truly is.

In Remake, SOLDIER!Cloud wavers between both heroines, however, the plot doesn't seem to be pushing a specific heroine this time around. So, both girls have quality time with said hero. The rest is up to be seen. o/

Okay, thanks! I feel I have a better grasp of it now, and this falls pretty much in line with my feelings on Remake SOLDIER!Cloud.

As someone who played the Remake first before going into FF7, I noticed some glaring differences with OG FF7 SOLDIER!Cloud's treatment of Tifa (and basically everyone else) and his one track mind regarding Aerith during Part 1. I felt such a disconnect with the OG on his characterization during this part.

On listening to the English voice acting, I feel they were having Cloud's English VA attempt to bring back this old characterization of him, while Cloud's Japanese VA is able to portray his trying-to-be-cool-but-uncool-and-cute/ダサ可愛い self really well. Not sure if I'm making sense.

It was really noticeable when he decides to infiltrate Shinra HQ. OG SOLDIER!Cloud was completely obtuse and rude to Elmina, and stormed out of her house to rescue Aerith. Tifa had to call out to him, and said something like, "You're going to save Aerith, aren't you?" and when she offered to go with him, he was like, "You better be fully prepared." OG SOLDIER!Cloud had tunnel vision, and I found him unlikeable in Part 1. How is this guy going to save the Planet, if he doesn't even look at or care about the people around him who are suffering?

The Remake gave that scene a much welcomed makeover, I think. Cloud doesn't act like a complete asshole to Elmina. Tifa was sensitive to Elmina's agitation, and gently got Cloud to calm down. I like how she always nudges him or touches his arm gently when he's on edge. And it makes sense that while the seed of doubt was planted in them, they didn't know for sure if there was an immediate threat to Aerith's life, until they discovered the underground lab. It just plays out so much better imho.

@Graymouse: 足を引っ張らないように精一杯がんばります means, like, I'll do my best to keep up with [everyone].

足を引っ張らない literally does translate as "not pulling down on someone's legs".
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
OG!SOLDIER!Cloud was a huge arsehole, and I don't know why people shipped him with anyone at that moment hahahahaha. There's a reason why I only became a cloti after the Lifestream scene! It is to note, though, that no matter how rude you could be to Aerith in the first part, you could never be rude to Tifa. But many people missed that point because well, he's a huge arsehole in general. Lol. That's why I much prefer Remake on characterisations.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
Okay, thanks! I feel I have a better grasp of it now, and this falls pretty much in line with my feelings on Remake SOLDIER!Cloud

As someone who played the Remake first before going into FF7, I noticed some glaring differences with OG FF7 SOLDIER!Cloud's treatment of Tifa (and basically everyone else) and his one track mind regarding Aerith during Part 1. I felt such a disconnect with the OG on his characterization during this part.

On listening to the English voice acting, I feel they were having Cloud's English VA attempt to bring back this old characterization of him, while Cloud's Japanese VA is able to portray his trying-to-be-cool-but-uncool-and-cute/ダサ可愛い self really well. Not sure if I'm making sense.

It was really noticeable when he decides to infiltrate Shinra HQ. OG SOLDIER!Cloud was completely obtuse and rude to Elmina, and stormed out of her house to rescue Aerith. Tifa had to call out to him, and said something like, "You're going to save Aerith, aren't you?" and when she offered to go with him, he was like, "You better be fully prepared." OG SOLDIER!Cloud had tunnel vision, and I found him unlikeable in Part 1. How is this guy going to save the Planet, if he doesn't even look at or care about the people around him who are suffering?

The Remake gave that scene a much welcomed makeover, I think. Cloud doesn't act like a complete asshole to Elmina. Tifa was sensitive to Elmina's agitation, and gently got Cloud to calm down. I like how she always nudges him or touches his arm gently when he's on edge. And it makes sense that while the seed of doubt was planted in them, they didn't know for sure if there was an immediate threat to Aerith's life, until they discovered the underground lab. It just plays out so much better imho.

I agree. My personal take on Cloud in OG is that they wanted SOLDIER!Cloud to be everything True!Cloud wasn't so these two personas could be easily differentiated: a stoic hero that isn't interested in anything is the completely opposite of who Cloud is aka a sensitive hero who cherishes everything. And taking into account the limitations of that time, I think they decided to exaggerate on his bad side so that the message was clearer for the player.

This fake persona starts to slowly "crack" the closer he gets to everyone, but only after the Lifestream can we see Cloud as he really is.

As for Aerith, I think it's the same thing. By having the storyline push her as a love interest first, you add value to her death early in the game, so it served a purpose there.

That said, I totally agree with you that Remake is doing a much better job by toning down Cloud's bad side. It's still there, but it's more subtle this time so you can easily get attached to him ( I think Nojima explained this shift in one of those docu-series? I'm not sure lol). They have the technology now so they don't need to rely so much on text to pass the message and since Remake is supposed to be the last installment from the Compilation, I think they're more worried in telling the story right/better this time around.

Anyway, I love reading your takes from OG/Remake @odekopeko!! :) I think new players are able to grasp the story changes much better than older players since our interpretations are already 'stained' from what we know from OG/discussions over the years.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
I think we touched upon this in the LTD thread but it definitely seems to me that Remake!Cloud is a more fleshed out, amplified version of the Original. As are all the characters. OG!Cloud, and most of the other characters, were fairly one-dimensional until later into the story. That was likely due to the space and technological limitations at the time. I don't really think any of the characters have changed super drastically, they've just been expanded upon, which is a good thing!

From what the developers have said about the Remake, it makes sense that this is sort of a "definitive" version of the game that they want to portray, encompassing everything from the Compilation. Like these are the personalities they intended to show from the beginning, but couldn't, and so here are their ideas on what these characters have evolved into. What with voice acting, facial and physical expressions, etc. you can see these characters clearer than before.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
There is also the fact that Zack's personality was said to influence Cloud's fake persona a great deal, but in CC Zack was super friendly, so it's hard to connect him to the OG!Fake!Cloud at all. Right now in Remake, I think we can say more safely that Zack indeed influenced Cloud's fake persona.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
@Graymouse: 足を引っ張らないように精一杯がんばります means, like, I'll do my best to keep up with [everyone].

足を引っ張らない literally does translate as "not pulling down on someone's legs".

See, I know just enough Japanese to be dangerous. You know, dangerously wrong! :lol::lol: Thank you for the good translation. So, I am assuming that she/he is worried about being a burden for everyone. Or something to that effect?
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Yeah, it's like she doesn't want to be a burden, slow anyone down.

While I wouldn't mind more romantic scenes between Cloud x Tifa, honestly I feel like they demonstrate the most chemistry in battle. I don't think I've ever seen such combat synergy from any other FF power couple.
I think this is what I like about them most too! Thanks for sharing that gif of them. Quite satisfying to see Tifa's powerful yet graceful moves in the air, while Cloud is hacking away at the enemy.

OG!SOLDIER!Cloud was a huge arsehole, and I don't know why people shipped him with anyone at that moment hahahahaha. There's a reason why I only became a cloti after the Lifestream scene! It is to note, though, that no matter how rude you could be to Aerith in the first part, you could never be rude to Tifa. But many people missed that point because well, he's a huge arsehole in general. Lol. That's why I much prefer Remake on characterisations.

Agreed. I do see that he's not unkind to her. It's just it pained me she had to wait around for so long, supporting him, and having to see him living out this weird illusion, flirting with another girl right in front of her, hoping True!Cloud would make his way back to her, and he doesn't until way later in the game. Although, I'm not dissing OG Cloud completely, just his actions in certain parts of the game, which didn't make sense to me. So, yeah, I can see what @minami758 is saying. The Remake does seem to be fleshing out the characters, not completely changing them.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
All it takes is Tifa to flash her beautiful eyes at Cloud and you can see him melt before them. Tifa knows just what to say and how to say it. When it comes to Cloud. They compliment each other so good. They are so cute together.


Some people call it manipulation, but I call it knowing the person so well, that they feed off each other emotions. There has been several times where Tifa has actually calmed Cloud down from "kill mode" throughout the Remake. I love that about them.
 
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