Eerie
Fire and Blood
Small spoiler for the Under Junon dialogue with Tifa (in the inn), as there is a small mistranslation in EN (compared to the FR):
Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)
- Thread starter Tennyo
- Start date
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
Hello/welcome back!
That's a really good observation. I totally missed that Tifa is the only one who is reliving her past in her "present" state. So much to unpack there, but I'll need to think on it more.
I think there may be something to how Tifa falling into the Lifestream in Gongaga allows Sephiroth to access her memory of the Nibelheim Incident, which then allows him to show it to Cloud at Northern Crater. Which is also why Tifa can't push back on it, because she knows that's what she actually remembers/believes. Sephiroth isn't lying this time, those are her actual memories. It's also very notably the only memory that's missing in Gongaga vs. the OG's Lifestream sequence.
I think there may be something to how Tifa falling into the Lifestream in Gongaga allows Sephiroth to access her memory of the Nibelheim Incident, which then allows him to show it to Cloud at Northern Crater. Which is also why Tifa can't push back on it, because she knows that's what she actually remembers/believes. Sephiroth isn't lying this time, those are her actual memories. It's also very notably the only memory that's missing in Gongaga vs. the OG's Lifestream sequence.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I wonder how far SE can push the Teen rating in the third game!
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Yes, it's missing the Nibelheim incident because she thinks Cloud wasn't there. Interestingly, she does have more memories with Cloud - albeit few - and she kept them like treasures, but it's the locked one that she saw... Plus, the Promise scene, that is so important to both of them, as it shaped a part of their relationship and how they grew up based on it. If in Gongaga Sephiroth was able to pry on her memories, that could mean a Sephiroth fight inside the Lifestream and I'm not sure I want that haha. Or him at least trying to prevent her from reaching Cloud... But I'll say this, it's odd since Sephiroth basically has already access to all the Lifestream's memories, so I think he already knows that.
I really do wonder how they're going to do the NC scene this time around - just arriving there will be interesting, the relationship changes with Cloud notably, Tifa being ice cold since she'll be wondering wtf is going on. And usually Tifa is the heart of the team, so if she's wary of Cloud, the others will be too.
I really do wonder how they're going to do the NC scene this time around - just arriving there will be interesting, the relationship changes with Cloud notably, Tifa being ice cold since she'll be wondering wtf is going on. And usually Tifa is the heart of the team, so if she's wary of Cloud, the others will be too.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
I think it's interesting because the Mt. Nibel memory is probably there for Tifa because for her, it's about her mom. She didn't even realize what Cloud did until now. Whereas for Cloud, it's entirely about her, haha.
But yes, the promise is a big one. I can't even count how many times we've seen it now/seen it referenced. But again, it's interesting/ironic that it meant different things to them then. For Tifa, it's a big moment because it's when she realized she was in love with Cloud, but for Cloud, it's a moment when he put this huge burden on himself because he thought he had to become a SOLDIER to impress her. (His crush started much earlier, whether or not he realized it).
LOL god, I really hope there's no combat in the Lifestream sequence. Part of what makes it so great in the OG is that it's so stripped down, and just a conversation between the two of them trying to figure things out.
I am not super well-versed in Lifestream lore -- does it/Sephiroth have access to everyone's memories or just the people who have passed away? (Or have taken a dip in the Lifestream like Tifa lol).
I think Barret will definitely be carrying the team through NC, because yeah Cloud will be looney tunes and Tifa looks like she's almost given up? But I'm excited! Next stop: Angst City.
But yes, the promise is a big one. I can't even count how many times we've seen it now/seen it referenced. But again, it's interesting/ironic that it meant different things to them then. For Tifa, it's a big moment because it's when she realized she was in love with Cloud, but for Cloud, it's a moment when he put this huge burden on himself because he thought he had to become a SOLDIER to impress her. (His crush started much earlier, whether or not he realized it).
LOL god, I really hope there's no combat in the Lifestream sequence. Part of what makes it so great in the OG is that it's so stripped down, and just a conversation between the two of them trying to figure things out.
I am not super well-versed in Lifestream lore -- does it/Sephiroth have access to everyone's memories or just the people who have passed away? (Or have taken a dip in the Lifestream like Tifa lol).
I think Barret will definitely be carrying the team through NC, because yeah Cloud will be looney tunes and Tifa looks like she's almost given up? But I'm excited! Next stop: Angst City.
He's still lying since he was there too. Because he has a hold on Cloud's mind, he knows the memory is being repressed - he talks about "your freind died in your arms and you didn't cry" and although they show Jessie, I couldn't help but think he's actually taunting him about Zack. Kinda wonder how he got so good at gaslighting lol
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Since this is not a spoiler: @insanehobbit Sephiroth has access to memories from the past, present and future in the Lifestream. Even in the OG he mentioned how he traveled through it and accessed all its memories. The Lifestream is a place where everything come at once, hence the whispers making sure there aren’t deviations with the future memories.
Edit: adding this Twitter post because LOL! Spoiler for the Gongaga section:
Edit: adding this Twitter post because LOL! Spoiler for the Gongaga section:
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thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- thetriplerhyme
- in Mt. Nibel memory I was actually surprise in French translation there is actually a time there? Is it 6months?? did ( I remember that right?) It wasnt in ENG and I'm not sure in JP though..
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Spoiler Gongaga:
Yes she has fuzzy memories for around 6 month around that time. It's also in German, which makes me think that it must be in JP too.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I know, I was more worried about it clogging up other peoples phones or computers.I love this scene, but it's from REMAKEso no need to hide it under a spoiler tag
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I recently rewatched some scenes of them together from Remake and hoo boy. I knew moments like these were supposed to have romantic tension/implications, but after having completed Rebirth the new added context makes the tension even more apparent. For a specific example, the train scene from Remake where Cloud holds Tifa closely after they jump out. On first viewing it's like "wow smooth move, Cloud." But when I was watching the same scene after seeing
them almost kiss in Gongaga
the Gold Saucer and their HA kiss
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
Right, he's definitely still lying. I just meant that it's a harder lie for Tifa to rebut because that's actually how she remembers it too, at least in that moment.
Hmm, I think Sephiroth is still talking about the Sector 7 plate collapse during the trial, because iirc, in the Ultimania, doesn't it talk about the moment of Jessie's death and how Cloud looks at Tifa crying and wonders why he isn't able to do the same? So I think Sephiroth is definitely gaslighting him, but more under the "you're just a puppet not a real person" bucket rather than about Zack. He's saving the Zack reveal as a sort of trump card to use at Northern Crater to totally shatter him.
LOL but yeah I guess Sephiroth has just been floating around the Lifestream for five years, sucking up memories of the planet and also working on his gaslighting skills.
Hmm, I think Sephiroth is still talking about the Sector 7 plate collapse during the trial, because iirc, in the Ultimania, doesn't it talk about the moment of Jessie's death and how Cloud looks at Tifa crying and wonders why he isn't able to do the same? So I think Sephiroth is definitely gaslighting him, but more under the "you're just a puppet not a real person" bucket rather than about Zack. He's saving the Zack reveal as a sort of trump card to use at Northern Crater to totally shatter him.
LOL but yeah I guess Sephiroth has just been floating around the Lifestream for five years, sucking up memories of the planet and also working on his gaslighting skills.
Some Tifa thoughts with Rebirth spoilers:
Even though she's experienced so much trauma, Tifa is such a (comparatively) well-adjusted person, at least on the surface, that it's kind of harder to suss out what her character arc is supposed to be. What is the big "flaw" that she needs to learn to overcome?
I think it's become a little clearer to me after Remake, ToTP and especially Rebirth. Post-Nibelheim Incident, she's someone who's been consumed with grief and anger over her past at the expense of her future.
When it comes to the immediate present -- how to get from point A to point B -- she can do that, and often she's the one leading the way. But when it comes to a future that's more than just five minutes beyond the horizon, she's at a loss.
Take rebuilding the bar, Barret is the first one to suggest it in Remake, and Cloud is the one who brings it up to her in Rebirth. It's not that she doesn't want a future, it's almost like she's too afraid to dream of it on her own. Why dare to hope when, like everything else in her life, it'll just be ripped away?
In the past five years, her entire life has been consumed with trying to settle her past. With the massive financial debt from her surgeries, she's paying off her past with her future in a very literal sense. Even after she joins AVALANCHE, she admits her motive wasn't for the future -- saving the planet -- but to get revenge on Shinra, revenge for her own past. And again, it comes at the expense of her future. The new home she was able to build in Sector 7, the new friends she so desperately sought to make in AVALANCHE, all lost (in part) as a consequence of her desire for revenge.
Ironically, she's able to see the limits of this mindset in others: when she first meets Barret, she whips him into shape, if not for himself, then for Marlene. Barret has his own struggles, but he's always working towards the future, because he wants Marlene to have a future, she's his North Star. Tifa doesn't have that, at least not yet. She buys Seventh Heaven so that Barret and Marlene can have a place to call home, but hardly spends a dime on her own apartment, as if she's too scared to think of it as a "home", it's just a place to stay.
In Rebirth, when they return to Nibelheim, she reflects on her father's actions five years ago and connects it to her own. In a moment of overpowering grief and anger for a past that will never return, Tifa's father seeks a fight he cannot win, sacrificing not only his own future in the process, but his future with her.
Five years ago, Tifa wasn't able to stop her father in time, but here in the present -- right before the game begins -- right as she's about to become overwhelmed with doubts -- she finds Cloud. Ironically, it takes a boy from her past to remind her of the future. Because the last time she remembers seeing Cloud was seven years ago on the water tower, when she realized that she loved him, and wanted to spend the rest of her days with him. He brings her back to a self who was still thinking about a "rest of her days."
But this Cloud is so strange, so different from the boy she once knew, that at first, she tries to keep her distance. He reminds her of a future, but she still doesn't dare think of a future with him. I think this is also part of the reason why Cloud's story in Kalm is so troubling to her. He had reminded her of a gentler past, before she lost everything, but now he's inserting himself into the worst moment of her life, forcing her to confront something she's been trying so hard to avoid.
But ultimately, even that was a good thing. By being forced to relive the worst moment of her life, she realizes she has been going down the wrong path, she has been repeating her father's mistake. After Gongaga, she's not just chasing after a shadow of her past (Sephiroth), she's also actively fighting for her future -- to save the planet, for real this time. It's also in Gongaga that she realizes that the future she's fighting so hard for does include Cloud. In the Lifestream, her greatest fear is Cloud walking away, but when she wakes, he's right by her side. She's seen him trying his best, and she's see him at his very worst, but it doesn't matter. She wants to protect him, she wants to be there for him this time.
They're different kinds of love, but just like how Barret is fighting for the sake of Marlene's future and for the sake of his future with Marlene, Tifa is doing the same for Cloud. Which isn't to say that Cloud is the only thing in the world for Tifa, but it's through him and her relationship with him that she changes how she sees the world. Cloud has become her North Star. He's not just her past, he's her future. He came back into her life right when she needed him the most.
I think it's become a little clearer to me after Remake, ToTP and especially Rebirth. Post-Nibelheim Incident, she's someone who's been consumed with grief and anger over her past at the expense of her future.
When it comes to the immediate present -- how to get from point A to point B -- she can do that, and often she's the one leading the way. But when it comes to a future that's more than just five minutes beyond the horizon, she's at a loss.
Take rebuilding the bar, Barret is the first one to suggest it in Remake, and Cloud is the one who brings it up to her in Rebirth. It's not that she doesn't want a future, it's almost like she's too afraid to dream of it on her own. Why dare to hope when, like everything else in her life, it'll just be ripped away?
In the past five years, her entire life has been consumed with trying to settle her past. With the massive financial debt from her surgeries, she's paying off her past with her future in a very literal sense. Even after she joins AVALANCHE, she admits her motive wasn't for the future -- saving the planet -- but to get revenge on Shinra, revenge for her own past. And again, it comes at the expense of her future. The new home she was able to build in Sector 7, the new friends she so desperately sought to make in AVALANCHE, all lost (in part) as a consequence of her desire for revenge.
Ironically, she's able to see the limits of this mindset in others: when she first meets Barret, she whips him into shape, if not for himself, then for Marlene. Barret has his own struggles, but he's always working towards the future, because he wants Marlene to have a future, she's his North Star. Tifa doesn't have that, at least not yet. She buys Seventh Heaven so that Barret and Marlene can have a place to call home, but hardly spends a dime on her own apartment, as if she's too scared to think of it as a "home", it's just a place to stay.
In Rebirth, when they return to Nibelheim, she reflects on her father's actions five years ago and connects it to her own. In a moment of overpowering grief and anger for a past that will never return, Tifa's father seeks a fight he cannot win, sacrificing not only his own future in the process, but his future with her.
Five years ago, Tifa wasn't able to stop her father in time, but here in the present -- right before the game begins -- right as she's about to become overwhelmed with doubts -- she finds Cloud. Ironically, it takes a boy from her past to remind her of the future. Because the last time she remembers seeing Cloud was seven years ago on the water tower, when she realized that she loved him, and wanted to spend the rest of her days with him. He brings her back to a self who was still thinking about a "rest of her days."
But this Cloud is so strange, so different from the boy she once knew, that at first, she tries to keep her distance. He reminds her of a future, but she still doesn't dare think of a future with him. I think this is also part of the reason why Cloud's story in Kalm is so troubling to her. He had reminded her of a gentler past, before she lost everything, but now he's inserting himself into the worst moment of her life, forcing her to confront something she's been trying so hard to avoid.
But ultimately, even that was a good thing. By being forced to relive the worst moment of her life, she realizes she has been going down the wrong path, she has been repeating her father's mistake. After Gongaga, she's not just chasing after a shadow of her past (Sephiroth), she's also actively fighting for her future -- to save the planet, for real this time. It's also in Gongaga that she realizes that the future she's fighting so hard for does include Cloud. In the Lifestream, her greatest fear is Cloud walking away, but when she wakes, he's right by her side. She's seen him trying his best, and she's see him at his very worst, but it doesn't matter. She wants to protect him, she wants to be there for him this time.
They're different kinds of love, but just like how Barret is fighting for the sake of Marlene's future and for the sake of his future with Marlene, Tifa is doing the same for Cloud. Which isn't to say that Cloud is the only thing in the world for Tifa, but it's through him and her relationship with him that she changes how she sees the world. Cloud has become her North Star. He's not just her past, he's her future. He came back into her life right when she needed him the most.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Shadowfox
You look like you need a monkey
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Square Enix FINAL FANTASY VII Rebirth Kuji Tifa Lockhart Prize End Figure JAPANDefault Title
Condition: Brand NEW Brand: Square Enix Material: PVC,ABS Size: H240mm Square Enix FINAL FANTASY VII Rebirth Kuji Tifa Lockhart Prize End Figure JAPAN
toysonejapan.com
I would really love to have this figure but it is a bit too expensive for my taste.
Edited to add: Just looked a bit deeper at the figure, and I am not too fond of her face mold
shady
Pro Adventurer
A couple of things people have missed from the Gongaga sequence too (thought some of you have probably seen at this point)
There's 2 places in the Lifestream that we don't actually visit to relive memories
Stargazer Heights
Entrace to Nibelheim
Now all 3 of the memories we visit are related to Cloud, so it's kinda safe to assume these other 2 probably are as well right? Entrance to Nibelheim i'm not sure what it'd be exactly but Stargazer Heights could be a number of things.
I'm a bit conflicted on what it all means currently because... this has to be Tifa's "lifestream" right? She hears her parents, her childhood friends, Zangan, Dr Sheiran etc but at the same time it looks like the memories are from Cloud's perspective? Except for the Water Tower promise, the house and the bridge the camera is behind Cloud, not sure if this means anything but was Tifa even aware Cloud was on the bridge at the time. I forget.
At the moment i'm coming to 3 conclusions
1. This is Tifa's own "inner Lifestream and her memories" but she's sharing similar experiences and events with Cloud, meaning they are connected together through the Lifestream (which would be ironic as hell considering how much they bang on about Cloud and Aerith being soulbound)
2. Tifa is in her own "inner Lifestream" but she's tapped into Cloud's memories, it would explain why the memories seem more from the angle of Cloud but she hears her own family and such in there
3. Tifa has somehow just tapped into Cloud's own "inner Lifestream and memories" but it wouldn't explain why she hears her parents and Zangan and such
Interested to hear peoples thoughts, and if we will get Stargazer Heights and Entrance to Nibelheim when we visit the LS in Part 3 or if we won't see any of this again in the P3 LS considering we've kinda covered it here, though it would also be good for Cloud to experience these
Stargazer Heights
Entrace to Nibelheim
Now all 3 of the memories we visit are related to Cloud, so it's kinda safe to assume these other 2 probably are as well right? Entrance to Nibelheim i'm not sure what it'd be exactly but Stargazer Heights could be a number of things.
I'm a bit conflicted on what it all means currently because... this has to be Tifa's "lifestream" right? She hears her parents, her childhood friends, Zangan, Dr Sheiran etc but at the same time it looks like the memories are from Cloud's perspective? Except for the Water Tower promise, the house and the bridge the camera is behind Cloud, not sure if this means anything but was Tifa even aware Cloud was on the bridge at the time. I forget.
At the moment i'm coming to 3 conclusions
1. This is Tifa's own "inner Lifestream and her memories" but she's sharing similar experiences and events with Cloud, meaning they are connected together through the Lifestream (which would be ironic as hell considering how much they bang on about Cloud and Aerith being soulbound)
2. Tifa is in her own "inner Lifestream" but she's tapped into Cloud's memories, it would explain why the memories seem more from the angle of Cloud but she hears her own family and such in there
3. Tifa has somehow just tapped into Cloud's own "inner Lifestream and memories" but it wouldn't explain why she hears her parents and Zangan and such
Interested to hear peoples thoughts, and if we will get Stargazer Heights and Entrance to Nibelheim when we visit the LS in Part 3 or if we won't see any of this again in the P3 LS considering we've kinda covered it here, though it would also be good for Cloud to experience these
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Gongaga spoilers:
I think it’s 1. It’s her Lifestream memories and they resonate with Cloud’s. Yes they are soulmates and p3 will prove that - I’ve been saying that for years as it looked to me that Cloud letting Tifa in his mind and heart spoke mire of soulmates than anything else.
For it to be Cloud’s LS, it’s missing the path towards the Nibelheim incident.
I remember in OG Tifa was waiting for Cloud at the entrance but didn’t CC/R retcon that? For Stargazer Height I think it’s the conversation they have after he remembers the promise.
For it to be Cloud’s LS, it’s missing the path towards the Nibelheim incident.
I remember in OG Tifa was waiting for Cloud at the entrance but didn’t CC/R retcon that? For Stargazer Height I think it’s the conversation they have after he remembers the promise.
thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- thetriplerhyme
Seen this post I think we all know by now this is comin still ~ made my day HAHHAAHAHA
Attachments
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
Woah, interesting. I definitely didn't catch that Stargazer Heights and the Nibelheim Entrance were there the first time around.
I'm almost certain we'll see these in part 3, because these definitely feel like blink-and-you'll-miss-it Easter Eggs/foreshadowing to me.
The reason the Nibelheim Incident is there is an obvious one, but Stargazer Heights is interesting. I guess they're really driving home, the "girl, I've been obsessed with you my entire life" aspect of Cloud's personality, lol. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure what the significance of that location is other than that being where Cloud remembers the promise? Perhaps that's the moment where Tifa started to believe that "this" Cloud was really the same Cloud she knew from her childhood?
I was wondering if they'd show more of the days before the game begins/after Tifa finds Cloud at the train station, but Tifa only brings Cloud to Stargazer Heights after the first bombing mission/during Remake itself. Do we know where he was staying prior to the mission, if not at Stargazer Heights?
Tifa was aware that Cloud was on the bridge with her at Mt. Nibel, but she didn't remember that he was there to stop her. It is interesting that two of these memories seem to be from Cloud's POV, but I would say these are still technically Tifa's memories/we saw Tifa's "Lifestream", but my guess is that the Planet/Lifestream is only showing Tifa the memories relevant to its own mission at the moment, so that's why these specific memories are taking "center stage," so to speak. After Cloud pushes her in the reactor, the Planet/Lifestream is afraid that Tifa will lose faith in him, so it's showing her memories that help her believe in him again: he saved her before at Mt. Nibel, and he promised he'll save her again. But maybe the Lifestream is using Cloud's memory of what happened at Mt. Nibel to help fill in the gaps in Tifa's memory?
I'm almost certain we'll see these in part 3, because these definitely feel like blink-and-you'll-miss-it Easter Eggs/foreshadowing to me.
The reason the Nibelheim Incident is there is an obvious one, but Stargazer Heights is interesting. I guess they're really driving home, the "girl, I've been obsessed with you my entire life" aspect of Cloud's personality, lol. But in all seriousness, I'm not sure what the significance of that location is other than that being where Cloud remembers the promise? Perhaps that's the moment where Tifa started to believe that "this" Cloud was really the same Cloud she knew from her childhood?
I was wondering if they'd show more of the days before the game begins/after Tifa finds Cloud at the train station, but Tifa only brings Cloud to Stargazer Heights after the first bombing mission/during Remake itself. Do we know where he was staying prior to the mission, if not at Stargazer Heights?
Tifa was aware that Cloud was on the bridge with her at Mt. Nibel, but she didn't remember that he was there to stop her. It is interesting that two of these memories seem to be from Cloud's POV, but I would say these are still technically Tifa's memories/we saw Tifa's "Lifestream", but my guess is that the Planet/Lifestream is only showing Tifa the memories relevant to its own mission at the moment, so that's why these specific memories are taking "center stage," so to speak. After Cloud pushes her in the reactor, the Planet/Lifestream is afraid that Tifa will lose faith in him, so it's showing her memories that help her believe in him again: he saved her before at Mt. Nibel, and he promised he'll save her again. But maybe the Lifestream is using Cloud's memory of what happened at Mt. Nibel to help fill in the gaps in Tifa's memory?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Still Gongaga:
I think it's him remembering the promise because it's such an important moment to her, when he tells her that yes, he remembers it, and yes, he wants to help her. However I also remember Nojima pointing out Tifa bringing Cloud there for the first time, so mmh. I felt he wanted to push forward Stargazer Heights as an "important location" for CT, since they have key scenes there.
For the timeline, it's not specified in English, but the JP line from Marle does say that Cloud arrived the day before the first bombing mission.
And yes, pretty much my conclusion for the Planet to show this particular memory to Tifa - after this big attack from Sephiroth, the Planet is basically going "look at him, he's your hero, don't despair!"
For the timeline, it's not specified in English, but the JP line from Marle does say that Cloud arrived the day before the first bombing mission.
And yes, pretty much my conclusion for the Planet to show this particular memory to Tifa - after this big attack from Sephiroth, the Planet is basically going "look at him, he's your hero, don't despair!"
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Related, one thing I like more about Remake than the OG is that he remembers the promise unprompted. Whereas originally, she reminds him.
idk if its just me but it really feels like one of the big things they're going to focus on in the Lifestream is Clouds feelings for Tifa and how he did everything for her. In the OG it was shown but I feel like they're going to make it the key part of the lifestream here