Fanon Stereotypes! or How We Learned to Continue Worrying and Rant a Bunch

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I agree that SOLDIERs and Turks have the same relation to the military -- i.e. they have as much command as they're given for the current mission.

Yes, we see this in Before Crisis as well, where Zack appears to be in command of the mission against the Avalanche HQ: he makes the decisions and tells the Turk what to do. In another episode, Reno is clearly in command of a group of squaddies. And of course when they went to Nibelheim, both Zack and Sephiroth were empowered to give the soldiers orders.

I think it's as you say: the authority comes from their temporary position as leader of the mission, and not because SOLDIER (or the Turks) are an integral part of the army's chain of command.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The term for SOLDIER is Paramilitary Organization. They work with, but are not part of the standard military, have their own ranks, and own chain of command.

Lezard or the current head of the org is the closest to General in its existing power structure, with SOLDIER 1st the next rank down.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Your description of Sephiroth reminds me of the reasoning behind the jinchuuriki in Naruto, Lic. Most of the higher-ups would love it of the jinchuuriki had Sephiroth's general apathy to orders and such thing. Only most of the jinchuuriki are smart enough that they are either left alone to do their own thing (within reason) or become the leaders of their organizations. Which is probably why Sephiroth and Angeal don't impress me that much come to think of it...

 

[Skan]

Angeal impresses me just by his ability to deal with Genesis for years on end. XP

Another question re. Lazard: I always got the impression he was newly appointed at the beginning of CC, just based on the content of his texts to the SOLDIERs and the fact that he didn't meet Zack until he was recommended for promotion. Is there anything in canon that goes directly against or supports this?

(Thinking out loud: If he is newly appointed, then that means at some point, someone else was running SOLDIER. It occurs to me that if this is the case, then it might've been Heidegger, and his overall incompetency may explain why the war dragged on for so long.)

In general, I'm a bit fuzzy on where SOLDIER stands in the ShinRa organization. I know after CC, Heidegger absorbs it into his department, but was it always under his purview (pre-)CC? Does Lazard report to ShinRa, Sr. or Heidegger?

 

[Roger]

Keep in mind that at the start of Crisis Core, Genesis went to Wutai as the commander of a force of hundreds of SOLDIERs and they all defected. Sephiroth and Angeal don't do these things because by the time we see them, the ranks have thinned out considerably.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Good point.

 

[Skan]

I'm probably nitpicking at this point or asking unanswerable questions, but was Genesis actually in command of hundreds of SOLDIERs in Wutai? All we're told is that he was "on a mission" when he went AWOL, which could mean anything from "he was on a solo mission to assassinate Godo" to "he was besieging the capital of Wutai with hundreds of SOLDIERs and ShinRa military." Sure, he outranks them all, but was he commanding them like a high-ranking military officer commanding a bunch of troops? Or was it simply a case of they were all in Wutai at one time, and he just happened to be the highest ranking SOLDIER around?

(I initially thought that there was evidence of Genesis being in charge of the campaign in Wutai, but when I checked, I couldn't actually find anything other than a note that he was on "a mission." Whatever that was.)

Do we have estimates for the number of SOLDIER operatives pre-Genesis-defection btw?

EDIT: All Kunsel says is "It appears one of the 1sts deserted. He took a bunch of 2nds and 3rds with him, too."

 

[Keveh Kins]

The idea of Genesis convincing hundreds of SOLDIER operatives to defect, even ones of lower rank, is laughable considering how much of a plank he is. Given how up his own arse he acts, I'd find it more believable if operatives under his command deserted him.

Still, I'd imagine the situation ran something along the lines of him tricking them into following him, ostensibly under orders, and then rendezvousing with Hollander at an abandoned outpost in Wutai to begin the cloning process. It's convoluted and farfetched, but so is him single handedly bringing about a rebellion in a paramilitary group that puts so much pride in honour and loyalty.

As for numbers, I always figured maybe around a hundred 2nd and 3rds and the rest of his clones were created from POWS and low rank regular military soldiers that either followed him blindly, were captured later or hoped to achieve the same level of power as a 1st Class SOLDIER and agreed to experimentation in a misguided attempt to achieve fame. There's no way he realistically could have gotten an army's worth to defect. He could easily have challenged the Shinra military if that were the case, cloning enhancements bedamned.

 

[Clement Rage]

I dunno, CC establishes that there was a huge cult of personality around the 1sts, and the idea that he could overpower or trick, hundreds of SOLDIERS virtually alone is even more far fetched than ordering them. SOLDIER did take a hit from the mass defection, to the point of being 'shorthanded' afterwards.

There's likely lots of dissatisfaction among low ranked SOLDIERs (consider how they're recruited) that he was able to take advantage of.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That no effort is made to explain how the SOLDIER Mass Desertion took place is one of CC's many storytelling shortcomings.

 

[jazzflower92]

That no effort is made to explain how the SOLDIER Mass Desertion took place is one of CC's many storytelling shortcomings.

And this is why some of us still think it would have made more sense for Lazard to be the Big Bad instead of Genesis. Especially since Lazard came from the slums and many of the SOLDIERS would have probably come from there as well he could have persuaded them to desert SHINRA to join his cause.

 

[Skan]

Isn't it actually possible that Lazard had a hand in instigating the mass desertion as well? He was already working with Hollander and Genesis by the time CC started.

The CC Ultimania Scenario Q&A says that Hollander approached Lazard immediately after discovering the copy phenomenon from treating Genesis's injury.

 

[Roger]

I'm probably nitpicking at this point or asking unanswerable questions, but was Genesis actually in command of hundreds of SOLDIERs in Wutai? All we're told is that he was "on a mission" when he went AWOL, which could mean anything from "he was on a solo mission to assassinate Godo" to "he was besieging the capital of Wutai with hundreds of SOLDIERs and ShinRa military." Sure, he outranks them all, but was he commanding them like a high-ranking military officer commanding a bunch of troops? Or was it simply a case of they were all in Wutai at one time, and he just happened to be the highest ranking SOLDIER around?

(I initially thought that there was evidence of Genesis being in charge of the campaign in Wutai, but when I checked, I couldn't actually find anything other than a note that he was on "a mission." Whatever that was.)

Do we have estimates for the number of SOLDIER operatives pre-Genesis-defection btw?

EDIT: All Kunsel says is "It appears one of the 1sts deserted. He took a bunch of 2nds and 3rds with him, too."

Kunsel: One 1st Class went missing. Also 2nd and 3rd Classes went missing as well during a mission in Wutai. There also seems to be no information about who did it or for what reason. Because of this SOLDIER disappearance it looks like your training sessions are over.

Lazard: Zack, it seems like this would be the first time we've meet. I am Executive Manager of the SOLDIER Department.
Zack: It's a pleasure!
Lazard: Hmm. I know this is sudden but---SOLDIER 1st Class Genesis. A while ago during a mission in Wutai, we lost his location. Is there anything you know about it?
Zack: Nothing at all!
Lazard: Hmm. As of now the organization is quite busy, so I'd like you to go and investigate.
Zack: To Wutai?
Lazard: That's correct. We'd like to end this long stretching war.

From: Shinra News
Contents: We have received reports from the Security and SOLDIER departments on the state of war with Wutai. We have been in negotiations with Wutai for years in order to peacefully resolve the long dispute regarding mako extraction in the region. However, Wutai's steadfast refusal has resulted in aggravated tensions. In order to break through this impasse, we have decided to resume military action. A special attack force of the smallest size has been mobilized to keep the scale of operations to a minimum.

Given that the Shinra news adresses the mission that Zack and Angeal take over from Genesis as the resuming of military action, I doubt those other SOLDIERs happened to be on Wutai on an unrelated mission.

As for your question concerning Lazard, I think he was in charge of SOLDIER for quite some time. Cissnei, Kunsel, Luxiere and the people of the SOLDIER floor all make tremendous note of how noticibly less efficient things get run after Lazards disappearance and how much they miss him but they don't particular say things improved because of his recent arrival in the position at the start of the game. Zack didn't meet so we could get introduced to him through Zack.

 

[Keveh Kins]

And this is why some of us still think it would have made more sense for Lazard to be the Big Bad instead of Genesis. Especially since Lazard came from the slums and many of the SOLDIERS would have probably come from there as well he could have persuaded them to desert SHINRA to join his cause.

The possibility of Lazard as the mastermind makes the story much more interesting and coherent, given what's implied by his family heritage. I like the idea of him discovering who his birth father was, and playing politics in a quest for personal revenge - trying to beat Pressie Shinra at his own game. I also like the idea that President Shinra secretly kept tabs on Lazard his whole life and tried to help him discreetly when he could. It'd make for great irony - Lazard thinks his birth father abandoned him when he really was helping him along his whole life, but couldn't do so publicly because hey, politics and company image and all that. Could've made for a decent political drama game, with Zack as the hero being the pawn that eventually breaks away and pays the price of his freedom. Would also reinforce Shinra as the big bad corporate/political exploitation guys, an aspect of the company which has been somewhat neutered in the expanded compilation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, I like narratives that subvert expectations.

The idea of Lazard (and Hollander) as the mastermind behind Genesis's defection makes a lot of sense and is a very appealing scenario. For one thing, it explains why Genesis would act in a way that seems out of character for a SOLDIER (ie, as if he had a mind of his own). Also, in this interpretation Lazard's character make a lot more sense. Taken a face value he seems like a rather well-meaning yet confused man who hates everything Shinra stands for yet is trying to do his best for his SOLDIERs, who gets swept up in events beyond his control and ends up receiving a punishment out of all proportion to his crime (always a sign of bad writing).

I endorse Kev's idea that President Shinra secretly tried to help Lazard and foster his career. Hence the appointment as Head of SOLDIER. Far from being grateful for this promotion and appreciating it as a sign of love and trust, Lazard, remains bent on revenge. Loathing Shinra and all who sail in her, he is disgusted and repelled by the 'freaks' in SOLDIER, whom he considers to be no longer human. Nevertheless, he sees that he can use them to his advantage. He finds a fellow traveller in the disaffected Dr Hollander.

Once Genesis' degredation begins, Hollander lures him into defecting from Shinra with promises of a cure, and Lazard orders a number of the Seconds and Thirds in Wutai to follow him. These guys don't realise they're not on bona fide maneuvers until it is too late. Genesis agrees to go along with Hollander's experimentations on the 2nds and 3rds in the hope that this will lead to a cure for his own degradation; thus he is morally compromised and becomes "a monster", inextricably bound to Hollander and Lazard. Hollander uses Genesis's degenerating G-cells to create an army of mindless clones to do his and Lazard's bidding. Angeal defects from the company out of disgust with Lazard; his sense of honour will not allow him to take orders from Lazard when he's actually fighting to save Genesis from Lazard's clutches and expose him as the self-centred traitor he is.

When the Turks get too close to the truth, Lazard flees.

I always thought it was beyond belief that he would agree to be injected with Angeal cells, but maybe he got wounded at some point and it was either that or die. Anyway, I like the irony that the man who thought of SOLDIER only as sub-human freaks to be exploited for his own personal revenge, becomes, through cloning, someone for whom the welfare of his SOLDIERs is his prime concern.

 

[Clement Rage]

Only thing is, how do you get a hundred SOLDIERs to climb into Mako tanks if they don't want to?

Given that the Shinra news addresses the mission that Zack and Angeal take over from Genesis as the resuming of military action, I doubt those other SOLDIERs happened to be on Wutai on an unrelated mission.

I always assumed that was Shinra propaganda scaling down the war for public perception.

Shinra PR dept: We're only taking the minimum necessary action to safeguard your interests, people. No naked power grabbing here, no sir.

For one thing, it explains why Genesis would act in a way that seems out of character for a SOLDIER (ie, as if he had a mind of his own).

Being made terminally ill due to experiments done on you by your boss without your knowledge seems like a pretty good reason to be rebellious to me.

And this is why some of us still think it would have made more sense for Lazard to be the Big Bad instead of Genesis. Especially since Lazard came from the slums and many of the SOLDIERS would have probably come from there as well he could have persuaded them to desert SHINRA to join his cause.

Lazard couldn't be a proper final boss, though. Genesis' giant monster form was hard enough to swallow as it was. Without Shinra, he couldn't easily get a giant robot, and as a civilian official, he wouldn't be super capable in toe to toe combat, and he doesn't have the scientific knowledge to pull a Hojo.

And every SOLDIER we know about came from outside Midgar (Gongaga, Banora, Nibelheim).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Only thing is, how do you get a hundred SOLDIERs to climb into Mako tanks if they don't want to?

"Time for your monthly mako shower, SOLDIER. Got to keep your strength up. This? New purpose built Shinra field hospital - bit different, I know. Always something new coming out of Shinra!"

I imagine that would have done the trick.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Lazard couldn't be a proper final boss, though. Genesis' giant monster form was hard enough to swallow as it was. Without Shinra, he couldn't easily get a giant robot, and as a civilian official, he wouldn't be super capable in toe to toe combat, and he doesn't have the scientific knowledge to pull a Hojo.

It is not really mature writing for the main antagonist of the game to have to be the final boss.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I always assumed that was Shinra propaganda scaling down the war for public perception.

Shinra PR dept: We're only taking the minimum necessary action to safeguard your interests, people. No naked power grabbing here, no sir.

I agree that Shin-Ra did all they could to dress the matter more favorably. Besides, it's said that the Genesis army consists of SOLDIERs. Even if a few random regular troops or civilians made it in there somehow, this wasn't mentioned. If Genesis was going to use civilians, one would think he would have used the people of Banora, where the copying was being conducted, but instead, he just killed them all.

As far as we know, the hundreds of Genesis copies Zack takes down were all SOLDIERs once.

 

[Shademp]

This discussion makes me want a remaster of Crisis Core with improved script, added scenes, fewer missions but with more diversity in them and so on.

 

[Ite]

Or just like have a team of writers working on the compilation that don't consider "coat with buckles" a plot device.

 

[Octo]

That just reminded me of this from destiny failed:

Then suddenly, Nomura stood up to unzip his pants. He unzipped several layers of pockets until he zipped open an actual pocket. Inside the pocket were three belts. After he undid each one, he slowly reached inside and took out a swiss army knife

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nomura actually didn't have a whole lot of involvement with Crisis Core, though, apparently. We can't really blame him for that one. It was Kitase and Nojima (either his first big fuck up or first epic trolling, depending on what you believe).

Really, blaming Nomura for everything Compilation is a fanon stereotype itself.

 

[Skan]

@ Minato: Thanks for gathering all those quotes!

I agree that they're probably not in Wutai for something unrelated to the military operations. What I am skeptical about is whether or not Genesis was actually running the campaign and "in command" of all the SOLDIERs in an official capacity (aside from just being the highest ranking SOLDIER present).

Good point re: Lazard.

@ Licorice: That's not an angle I'd ever considered, and it's something I need to consider more. But I think you manage to both sell Genesis too short and too much in the same breath.

Regarding the first, he strikes me as a character who very clearly does have a mind of his own but frankly doesn't care about most things if they don't threaten his well-being or his dreams. (I think this sort of selfishness and apathy is something you see throughout a good deal of the world of FF7, in fact, and I don't think it's restricted to SOLDIER.)

On the flipside, I find the idea of Genesis actually having any morality to compromise very foreign and hard to swallow. It's true that we get basically the tail-end of his descent into I-don't-even-know-what, but he's never struck me as the type to care about right and wrong. If he did have any sort of "code," it seems more likely it would have been me/us (+ Angeal) vs. them.

Angeal potentially knowing about Lazard is interesting. I wonder if he may have been the one to hint to the Turks that Lazard was the leak. Then they actually had to go and investigate, because Angeal kicked the bucket, and there went their only "witness." Lazard caught wind of their sniffing and ran off.

I still remain confused as to what made Angeal break, though. While his actual conflict in the story is clear to me -- he can't help Genesis, because Genesis is doing Very Bad Things, and he can't help ShinRa, because they did Very Bad Things to Genesis, but he can't very well just do nothing -- I'm still not sure what convinced him he was a monster and that monsters were by nature doomed to do Bad Things.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Comon tope of Japanese literature is what caused him to break. Namely, the one where finding out the organization your identity is wrapped up in betrayed you leads to brain breakage.

Not to mention that the FF7 world is filled with "normal" monsters, so becoming one could legitimately be a cause for concern. IE: I don't want to become something not human, so I want to kill myself before that happens...

See The Borne Legacy for another way he could have handled the problem. The similarities (and differences) between that movie and Crisis Core are very interesting.