Fanon Stereotypes! or How We Learned to Continue Worrying and Rant a Bunch

[CameoAmalthea]

Why do they treat Elena like that? I think it's because she's the "new girl" and most of them see her as a younger sister. Aside from Tseng, and I have no idea what he's thinking.

And I know Machiavelli, I think Rufus is mindful of the warning "not to be hated". He cares about PR (his plan to execute Tifa and Barret was a PR stunt). I don't think President Shinra wanted to be feared, he just used force because he could, he was more about bread and circuses, trying to be loved, covering up wrong doing to create this image of a company that does no wrong and keeps the people safe. I think Rufus wants to be loved for actually getting things done, which is where he'll put his efforts, and rather than trying to avoid rebellion by lying to everyone he'll just crack down on rebels.

Although honestly, we should just have a thread for this.

President Shinra vs Rufus Shinra - policy differences

As to those with an ear for accents, which I think I have as well which is part of the reason I was able to hide mine, do you think it helps with writing, because you can "hear" the character's accent as you write them and slip into it?

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Machiavelli was a supporter of a Republican form of government and The Prince was a work of satire that sarcastically praised tyranny. Just sayin'.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^Yes, but enough people missed the point and took it literally that we still refer to this sort of thing as "Machiavellian" to this day

 

[CameoAmalthea]

If there was a Machiavelli fandom they'd be very angry. Although from what I've read is that there's still debate among scholars as to whether or not it's satire or not.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

There IS debate, but looking at... well pretty much everything else the guy ever wrote and advocated, the fact that his views on government got him locked up, etc, its pretty likely that the satire theory is the correct one.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I'm not a scholar of Italian Renaissance Literature, aside from basic exposure to Dante and Machiavelli. My scholarship focused primarily on English Literature, 20th Century American Literature, and various philosophers (my Advanced Lit Analysis was all about reading through the lens of other theories). So I don't really feel like I'm the person to argue one way or another.

But I did find this http://donmacdonald.com/2010/10/the-prince-is-not-a-satire/ interesting. The idea that someone who was pro-Republic might support monarchy as a necessary evil to create a stable government out of which a republic could be born is interesting. So is the idea that it should be read as sarcastic black humor or that perhaps it was intentionally bad advice meant to cause would be "Princes" following it to fail and prompt a republican revolution.

I'm just not quick to ascribe to any one theory of interpretation.

 

[Skan]

Yeah, there's always going to be at least one scholar who thinks differently in academia (and esp. in the humanities) ...

Dear god, I just realized that it's Professor Hojo in FF7. Does that mean he teaches?

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, there's always going to be at least one scholar who thinks differently in academia (and esp. in the humanities) ...

Dear god, I just realized that it's Professor Hojo in FF7. Does that mean he teaches?

Probably on the side and it would have to be a Shinra sponsored school where he would be able to kidnap any students to use as his next lab specimen. That's just a headcannon guess but if Hojo did teach I think it would be because of this explanation.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

http://crimsonsun.deviantart.com/art/Biol-with-Hojo-24427087

 

[Clement Rage]

Alas, my habit of super nitpickiness works against me yet again.

Also, Cameo, great find.

Probably on the side and it would have to be a Shinra sponsored school where he would be able to kidnap any students to use as his next lab specimen.

Oh, come on, he can't kidnap EVERYBODY. Even a mad scientist needs to have some boundaries if he wants to stay funded.

I think burning down Corel is a case for ruling by fear by Elder Shinra, though. I'm not sure they're quite that different. I think someone said before that Rufus defines himself as being different from his Dad while actually being very similar (blaming the terrorist group who opposes him for the major disaster that occurs, even though they were actually trying to stop it.)

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I doubt he actually teaches. Works of fiction seem to use Doctor and Professor interchangeably when it comes to scientists. Speaking of which, what is Hojo's title in Japanese. Is he a professor in japan, too?

 

[CameoAmalthea]

It's possible that the word for Dr. and professor are the same word in Japanese? I don't know, I don't speak the language.

But I really like this head canon explanation.

http://risingoflights.tumblr.com/post/73069480379/cameoamalthea-its-nearly-3-am-im-still-awake

 

[Shademp]

I never knew about the distinction that being a professor means being a teacher. To me, 'professor' has always just been a title assigned to somebody who is an expert in one field or another (though with a university degree). Wouldn't surprise me if the FFVII writers thought the same thing.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I know that Universities have traditionally been where research took place and still are although more and more research is being shifted to private companies. In a lot of Universities Professors who are researchers are also required to teach although a lot of the teaching is given to PHD students because the professors don't want to teach. It's sort of a messed up system if you have a Professor who wants to teach not research or Professor who wants to research and not teach.

But I could see how Professor would just mean "learned person"

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I can't find the japanese script, so I don't know how people address Hojo in Japanese, but my guess is that they call him "sensei", which I think literally means "the one who has ripened before" or something like that, and is something like their equivalent of "Dr", only it's used to address doctors, teachers, professors etc.... The implication of the title being that this person is wiser than you are.

Maybe someone better informed than I could weight in here?

 

[Keveh Kins]

Hojo could be a teaching professor. Shinra's got a department full of scientists who would have to have been educated and trained somewhere, possibly some Shinra-funded university or military training base or something. Heck, possibly even within the building itself, it has a library full of research documents and plans. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume Hojo goes down to floor 30 to give lectures to budding scientists. Course he probably thinks it beneath him and taking up valuable research time. I'd imagine him as fantastically short, abrupt and snide as a lecturer

 

[jazzflower92]

Hojo could be a teaching professor. Shinra's got a department full of scientists who would have to have been educated and trained somewhere, possibly some Shinra-funded university or military training base or something. Heck, possibly even within the building itself, it has a library full of research documents and plans. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume Hojo goes down to floor 30 to give lectures to budding scientists. Course he probably thinks it beneath him and taking up valuable research time. I'd imagine him as fantastically short, abrupt and snide as a lecturer

I could see him taking a Ms. Bitters approach to teaching.


http://zim.wikia.com/wiki/Ms._Bitters

 

[Lex]

In the UK (though I think it's the same everywhere, I can't speak for North America) our University lecturers are only called "Professor" if they're the sole expert in their subject - i.e. they're a Professor of something that they have a very specific expertise in (these are not broad subjects, for example one professor's area of expertise is filarial nematoda).

The "Professor" title is only given to one person with substantial knowledge in a specific area. Other lecturers and researchers may teach in similar areas, but they're referred to as whatever their title is (if they're teaching a subject in my degree group they always have PhD's and are active researchers, so it's "Doctor". In my University only lecturers who research teach, but that's because it's life sciences. Other subjects will of course be different.

Not sure how or if this adds to the discussion, but I just thought I'd clarify that there's a large distinction between "Professor" and the more common teacher or "Lecturer" here.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I've always considered a professor someone who teaches at a college or university and a doctor someone with their doctorate's degree. I looked both words up in the dictionary just now, and it seems to adhere to these definitions as well.

 

[Skan]

I've always considered a professor someone who teaches at a college or university and a doctor someone with their doctorate's degree. I looked both words up in the dictionary just now, and it seems to adhere to these definitions as well.

This is my understanding as well. (OT: Though it's always awkward when you're emailing a grad student instructor, and you're not sure how they wish to be addressed. I just default to Prof. and wait for them to correct me ...)

Hm, I have to say the thought of Hojo as an advisor is terrifying.

 

[jazzflower92]

This is my understanding as well. (OT: Though it's always awkward when you're emailing a grad student instructor, and you're not sure how they wish to be addressed. I just default to Prof. and wait for them to correct me ...)

Hm, I have to say the thought of Hojo as an advisor is terrifying.

Yeah, because you notice some of your classmates are disappearing plus the fact his lectures are dreary and nihilistic. Not to mention how frightening the science assignments would be as well.

 

[Skan]

Is Sephiroth actually a general? This has been bugging me for a while, and I went back through to check the Compilation just to make sure, but I can't find any instance in which Sephiroth is called General Sephiroth. He's either called Sephiroth, Mr. Sephiroth (by Luxiere), and/or SOLDIER First Class Sephiroth (by Genesis, who also calls Zack "SOLDIER First Class Zack," which makes me think that their proper rank is just "SOLDIER First Class.")

Genesis, Angeal, and Zack are not called Commanders or Lieutenants or any other variation on that title.

It's not a very harmful idea ... but I do think that a lot of people take it as canon when it seems to be complete fanon. (If someone would like to double-check the Japanese for me, please do so.)

The overall structure and relationship of SOLDIER to the actual ShinRa military probably requires another look... I am starting to think it more similar to the structure of FF8's SeeD than anything else, but with a few "permanent" units sprinkled within the ranks. (The existence of units like Lost Force and the Ragnarok imply that there are at least thirteen known "set" squads, at least until Ragnarok gets wiped.)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's completely fanon. Shinra has an army and the army appears to have some rankings. Sephiroth, however, belongs to a different department - at least until the army, the Turks and SOLDIER are all merged together under Heidegger's command, but by then all Project G and project S SOLDIERs are 'dead'.

I've seen a lot of fanfics that write Sephiroth as a general (or a ranking officer of some sort, with anything between a platoon and several brigades at his command). And I'm not saying those fics don't work, because they often do. But it seems to me that Shinra envisioned him less as a commander and more as a kind of superweapon, a one-man brigade. His job is not to strategise and deploy, but to annihilate. He's an A-bomb. He's Goliath. For this, he doesn't need to be intelligent, and while he's often written in fanfiction as having genius -level intelligence, nothing he's ever done has seemed like the action of a genius. If anything, he seems a bit sub-par, intellectually speaking.

Edited to add: in fact I don't know how he could even begin to tolerate his pre-Nibelheim life unless he had the intellectual capacity of a stalled ox.

 

[Skan]

Yes. I haven't seen much canon evidence supporting the idea that he -- or any other SOLDIERs -- commanded great legions of troops. What we get of field operations comes mostly from that one Wutai mission, where we see Angeal and Zack attached to a unit. (Sephiroth is presumably attached to another.) I imagine if he was involved in running the war, it'd be mostly as a consultant/leader of a squad than as an actual general. (Same goes for the other SOLDIERs.)

I'm starting to wonder if SOLDIERs are more like Turks in how they relate to the military -- i.e. they don't have the authority to command military troops unless it's authorized, perhaps? (Note, however, that I am not an expert on the Turks at all.)

I can't speak much about Sephiroth's intellectual capacity ... he does seem bookish, but tbh, we don't get much of him actually acting on anything that isn't an order until the Nibelheim fiasco.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree that SOLDIERs and Turks have the same relation to the military -- i.e. they have as much command as they're given for the current mission. In that respect, they're no different from real-world special ops forces. They may outclass others in terms of skill or training, but not necessarily rank. They may be given command of a platoon or an entire invading force, but only for the assignment in question.

Tseng has command over Zack at times, but he obviously isn't as deadly, nor could he just call Zack up and order him to do something at Tseng's own discretion. Zack seemingly has authority over Cloud and some other troops for that "We're all coming back alive" thing, but we never see him in such command again.