FFIX....Another Ultimania project?

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=544.msg20206#msg20206 date=1235161824]

I don't see how that stuff is that important. You don't need it for the main story. It's just background information for people who like to delve even deeper into the game's stories.
It's like the appendices of Lord of the Rings and all the other stuff he wrote. You don't need it to understand the LotR books. They already explain a lot about the characters and the world. The other stuff is just for the geeks who want to know even more and want to know all the details.

Well, I think it's important, especially considering what I've read in the FFX and FFIX Ultimania's falls under the 'Really pertinent to understanding the story' category and not the 'Supplemental information' category, and FFVII's Ultimania is almost required to make sense of anything. We'll have to agree to disagree there.
[/quote]

No, because my opinion > yours.

I was able to understand the stories even before reading those translations. Maybe it's because I paid attention.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How many Ultimania translations have you read?

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=544.msg20211#msg20211 date=1235162072]
How many Ultimania translations have you read?
[/quote]

All that we have here plus all the shit circulating at gamefgtsfaqs.com

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, that isn't all of the translations I'VE read, which is more than what we have here and Gamefaqs. Like I said, I've read most of the Ultimania's from the FFs I've listed above (plus some of the stuff from FFIV, etc).

I've paid attention as well and I understand the stories without the books (with the exception of FFVII; why do you think that most debates cite the Ultimania so much?), but even then, some of the games like FFIX and FFX are beyond simple understanding what's presented to you in the game, those particular Ultimania's tell you stuff that the game never even bothers to present in any way shape or form.

So in some cases, it's beyond simply paying attention, smartass.

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=544.msg20214#msg20214 date=1235162318]
Well, that isn't all of the translations I'VE read, which is more than what we have here and Gamefaqs. Like I said, I've read most of the Ultimania's from the FFs I've listed above (plus some of the stuff from FFIV, etc).

I've paid attention as well and I understand the stories without the books (with the exception of FFVII; why do you think that most debates cite the Ultimania so much?), but even then, some of the games like FFIX and FFX are beyond simple understanding what's presented to you in the game, those particular Ultimania's tell you stuff that the game never even bothers to present in any way shape or form.

So in some cases, it's beyond simply paying attention, smartass.
[/quote]

Not really, because as I said, none of that shit is needed to make sense of the game.
The only thing I had a hard time making sense of was AC because of it's absolutely shitty exposition of plot.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, from what you've told me, I've read more than you read, so like I said before, I agree to disagree.

 

[Tetsujin]

Interestingly, despite not having read over 9000 translations like you did, the stories still make sense to me and there really isn't anything big about these games I need to have clarified for myself from which I gather that this other information is basically just supplemental to me, so no u.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The stories as a whole still make sense to me as well. With the exception of FFVII, I never really said otherwise. Thanks anyway.

 

[Strangelove]

What kind of stuff was mentioned in FFX's? I don't think I have any of those, but I'm curious as to what they might say about them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, the information curiousACfan has translated from the FFIX Ultimania have been posted on the front page with pictures and stuff!

Once again, thanks for your invaluable hard work.

 

[curiousACfan]

The front page articles look great, Mako. Thanks!

You guys are all welcome for the translations, by the way. Like I said, I'll do page 43 sometime later tonight. I doubt I'll bother with pages 41 and 42.

They look like redundant information we've already heard or can easily figure out. The Iifa Tree page (page 42) is probably just going to tell us that the roots wrapped around Gaia's crystal prevent Gaia's souls from getting in while allowing Terra's souls to enter.

Since we already know that, I'm not that interested in translating it. How about you, hitoshura? Recovered yet?


As for whether Ultimanias are necessary for understanding the story, I'm going to have to say that they usually aren't. They're very interesting to read, but things are still pretty easy to figure out even when not spelled out.

The overall plot sometimes has details you couldn't possibly get from playing the game (for instance, Terra being inside Gaia and another dimension simultaneously, why Oeilvert is even on Gaia, the sub-races being a result of the cataclysm, or the Iifa Tree existing before the cataclysm), but all the stuff needed to make sense of what's going on is usually there.

The only real possible exception to that for FFIX is the ending. It's really unclear both in the game and here why the Iifa Tree dies. And since the Ultimania doesn't even talk about Necron, it doesn't help with that.

Necron and the game's ending is an example of fans doing a better job of explaining parts of the story than the people who made it (that idea that he's the Soul Divider).

I don't really think even FFVII needed much help from the Ultimania. Most of its story is clear. Masked occasionally by a weak translation, yes, but it's still pretty clear, even in the English version.

And VIII definitely didn't need help from its Ultimania, which was probably the worst one they've ever made. If not for that Rinoa=Ultimecia debate, it would have been completely useless to the fans.

[quote author=hitoshura link=topic=544.msg20241#msg20241 date=1235166059]
What kind of stuff was mentioned in FFX's? I don't think I have any of those, but I'm curious as to what they might say about them.
[/quote]

Of all the games, FFX's Ultimanias were probably the most interesting. Someone at GameFAQs did a translation of all the important stuff (it's a long thread, and the information is spread out, but it's there):

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=2000008&topic=21477330

They included pretty detailed timelines, some specifics about certain events -- like Jecht observing Sin on a few occasions while he was training, Yu Yevon using gravity magic to pull pyreflies together and create Sin, and the fayth sharing a collective consciousness, which is why Bahamut's fayth referred to the fayth dreaming up Tidus as "we" -- and a background story for each major character, including Seymour and Yunalesca.

There's really a lot of good stuff in them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't really think even FFVII needed much help from the Ultimania. Most of its story is clear. Masked occasionally by a weak translation, yes, but it's still pretty clear, even in the English version.

I dunno, either FFVII has the dumbest overall fanbase or it's pretty unclear, because the FF7 Ultimania is usually the most cited in debates.

Well, the OVERALL story is clear, but many aspects such as Sephiroth/Jenova's battle of wills, the Reunion, the circumstances and the whys of Aeris death, and what body does Sephiroth has, etc rather unclear by nature of the translation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hojo says in black and white that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova for the Reunion to get the Black Materia.

Cloud says that the thing they were following wasn't Sephiroth but actually Jenova.

There's nothing unclear about it at all. The FFVII UO gives us clarification. After 10 years of people twisting the facts, or putting forth theories of Sephiroth astrally projecting himself, or Jenova being the one truly in control, the FFVII UO was a final nail in the coffin of bad theories based on bad interpretation of facts. But if you actually pay attention to the script and everything that's said, you'd reach the same conclusions.

@curiousACfan

Holy shit. What a cache of awesome FFX information. God. Thank you so much for sharing this 4 year old info from the FFX UO. Goddamn.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

After 10 years of people twisting the facts, or putting forth theories of Sephiroth astrally projecting himself, or Jenova being the one truly in control, the FFVII UO was a final nail in the coffin of bad theories based on bad interpretation of facts.

So why does this happen with FF7 and no other game? Hell, Xenogears, which is far, far more complex than FF7, never had ten years straight of bad theories based on bad interpretations, confused fans asking dumb questions, pointless debates because nobody understood, or much of a reputation for having an unclear story.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think Xenogears being more "complex" than FFVII is your own opinion. In the end, complexity diverges into subjectivity and thus what one finds as "complex" another may find "convoluted" and badly expositioned.

I think what happened with FFVII is that the fandom, which is already one of the largest, started just turning their own theories into facts and those facts, like memes, spread to the point that people forgot what the story actually said. Again, after nearly 10 years of no other FFVII material being made, and no easy access to what the creators say, the plot got skewed.

But the facts of the game, are contained within the game. Jenova is said to be under the command of Sephiroth, Jenova SAYS that her goal is to obey her master Sephiroth, Hojo explains what Sephiroth used the Reunion for, and Cloud explains that they were chasing the body of Jenova.

It's all there. In the game. What happened, simply happened among fandom.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I think Xenogears being more "complex" than FFVII is your own opinion.

Man you have got to be kidding me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=544.msg20290#msg20290 date=1235176825]

I think Xenogears being more "complex" than FFVII is your own opinion.

Man you have got to be kidding me.
[/quote]

No M.O.G., I hate to break it to you...but not everyone on the internet thinks like you. It'll be okay. Yes, that is your opinion on the subject. No, not everyone will see it like you.

@hitoshura

Dude. You asked what the FFX Ultimania guide says, but I'm reading through it and I see a poster from 2005 named "vilaeth" posting there, talking about it.

Coincidence?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

No M.O.G., I hate to break it to you...but not everyone on the internet thinks like you. It'll be okay. Yes, that is your opinion on the subject. No, not everyone will see it like you.

No what I mean is, I don't mean complexity in terms of a positive trait, or that I'm saying that Xenogears is a better game than FF7 (I like it better, but that's my opinion), but it's fact (and it can actually be counted) that Xenogears has more story elements, characters, and overall stuff to remember than FF7. There's just more of it.

That's not anything against FF7, but it's pretty much fact (and I can prove it right here and now) that there is is more of Xenogears story than FF7 story. Like I said, it's not good or bad, but I'm just saying that it pretty much can't be argued.

It's just like saying War and Peace is more complex (and there's more of it) than say, Of Mice and Men. Both great books, but one is more 'complex' and there's more of it.

 

[Max Payne]

I think with all the new stories and plot threads introduced in the compilation, FF7 has become more complex than Xenogears.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Even that's a maybe.

 

[Max Payne]

I disagree entirely. I think that there's much more to it now, than Xenogears. If only by a little.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, back on the slight subject of Ultimanias being necessary to understand FF, I still have to disagree, now in context with FFX.

Aside from the more detailed timeline which I loved, and would love to host here, the FFX Ultimania didn't really give anything that was truly exclusive to that book. Again, most of what it talks about is found within the game. The book either clarifies it or details it further.

The only thing I truly didn't know was how Sin is apparently "Gravity" elemental based, and that's how he uses his gravity warping powers to fly, destroy things, draw all those pyreflies into itself, and re-construct itself. That was my own personal theory I thought, based on the attacks, and its overdrive "Giga Graviton" but it was neat reading the clarification myself.

Also, the way the book described and laid out the way each character's personalities worked within the story was great, but again, nothing so different or new that you wouldn't piece it together from playing the game.

I think the only FF's that require the books to fully understand the game, would be the FF's before FFVII. Where the medium of the SNES and NES sadly limited just how much they could shove onto a cartridge.

FFIX's current information is indeed, very meaningful and interesting, but you don't really NEED it to fully understand the plot. These details just make the plot all the more better.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I disagree entirely. I think that there's much more to it now, than Xenogears. If only by a little.

Well, okay. Let me back up what I'm saying somewhat. Here are some plot points in Xenogears.

-The Interstellar War
-The nature of Deus
-The Zohar
-The Anima Relics
-The Zeboim Civilization
-The four incarnations of the Contact (Abel, Kim, Lacan, and Fei, with their own separate backstories)
-The machinations of the Nimrod Empire
-The Solaris-Surface War
-The Diabolos Corps
-The origin of Gears
-Nanotechnology
-The incarnations of Miang
-The nature of the Contact and the Antitype
-The M Project
-The machinations of the Solaris Empire
-Solaris social structure and their relations to the land dwellers
-Krelians goals and intentions
-Emperor Cain and the Gazel Ministry
-The Aveh Kislev War
-Yaweh
-The relationship between Lacan, Sophia, and Krelian
-The relationship between Id/Fei
-Fei's multiple personalities
-The Animus
-Deus resurrection
-The project to combine Gears with human consciousness
-The Wels
-The history of Shevat
-The influence and history of the Nisan church
-The sand pirates and Shakhan
-Ramsus soul consuming rivalry with Fei
-The origin of Ether in humans
-The Ethos
-Wiseman/Grahf
-The Omnigears
-The Wave Existence

And those are just major plot points off the top of my head.

 

[Max Payne]

You know, I'm quite sure someone could do the same with the compilation and come up with a big list too.

It's not a farfetched conclusion to draw given FF7+Before Crisis+CrisisCore+Dirge= a lot of FF7 material to cover.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You know, I'm quite sure someone could do the same with the compilation and come up with a big list too.

Well, I welcome them to!