SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 13 Spoiler Discussion
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Roger
He/him
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- Minato
Just because they value her, does not mean that it makes sense for them to let her go free, no harm done, end of story. And I don't know what you mean by cordial, Rude beats the crap out of Aerith same as Cloud, Reno's men just barely avoid killing her, with nothing more then a stern word from Reno as a result. One has to imagine this has been Aerith and Elmyra every day life for years now.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
It also doesn’t mean that it’s unreasonable for Elmyra to have a desperate hope that Aerith might be returned once her function is fulfilled, especially since for the past several years, they have had a relatively peaceful arrangement going on.
Except based on Aerith’s reaction to them, the fights only occurred because Cloud was there. And Aerith has to frequently tell Cloud to not got to hard on the Turks. Also in Rude’s fight, Rude attacks on Aerith are nearly all binding/disabling attacks, he is not seeking to “beat the shot out of her” like he is with Cloud. In addition to Elmyra’s informal/familiar way of speaking about Rude, Aerith expresses a very cheeky familiarity with both Reno and Rude. It definitely does not imply Aerith has having an antagonistic with them growing up.
Roger
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- Minato
Why? If her function is fulfilled, why leave her alive, if they still has use for her, why let her leave? And the answer to that question can't just make sense to Elmyra but also Tifa and Barret. And Cloud, who also was not sufficiently motivated to help Aerith anymore before the secret facility, where surprise surprise, Shinra was found to be less then morally upstanding.
Then Aerith is pretty brutal, as Cloud is DEFINITELY killing people that would have been perfectly fine and gone on their merry way in these fights if she intervened. Reno says he'll miss them after Cloud cuts them down.
OR Aerith hires a bodyguard from the Turks because she needs a bodyguard from the Turks, because absent Cloud, Reno and Rude would have still shown up and not just left with taking a simple no as an answer.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Aerith is pretty handy with killing people herself, from what I've seen.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
In self defense, which I guess this wasn't. These guys were just going to hang around and look at flowers if Cloud and Aerith didn't start shit, I suppose.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Someone's mother, who is doing you an incomparable favor, begging you not to risk making things worse for her daughter, only for you to go "NOPE. SUCK IT" would seem more out of character to me, quite frankly. And even if Elmyra doesn't truly believe that they'll simply let Aerith go, what reason does she have to believe that three jokers charging the building will make things better for her?
(Also, she's not 100% wrong, as she never sees Aerith again anyway. So whether Aerith was with Shinra or Avalanche....)
And then of course, out of game reasons for the side-activity, they mentioned in interviews that how the original plate drop, talking with Elmyra, climbing to Sector 0, the entire Shinra building AND the escape take place in a single night. Which is a comically long night, as well as not allowing you to see the impact of the events.
(Also, she's not 100% wrong, as she never sees Aerith again anyway. So whether Aerith was with Shinra or Avalanche....)
And then of course, out of game reasons for the side-activity, they mentioned in interviews that how the original plate drop, talking with Elmyra, climbing to Sector 0, the entire Shinra building AND the escape take place in a single night. Which is a comically long night, as well as not allowing you to see the impact of the events.
Roger
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- Minato
Aerith hired Cloud as a bodyguard quite specifically to prevent Shinra from capturing her. Are Aerith's own wishes worth consideration on this matter? As for making things worse, Cloud (by way of Zack) knows about the Jenova Project, doing human experimentation to create the Ancient they needed for their goals. Aerith staying with Shinra as long Shinra wants her to be should really seem worse then any alternative.
If that all doesn't matter, I don't see why anything they see in underground facility should change their mind. Cloud even says, "yeah, that's the Shinra I know."
ForceStealer
Double Growth
And how did that turn out?
I think the waiting was more to let Elmyra think on it, rather than the team
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Roger
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- AKA
- Minato
Tifa quite specifically convinced Cloud to agree to condemn Aerith to whatever fate Shinra sees fit with the argument that maybe Elmyra is right about them letting Aerith go.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Uh, I just saw that scene and to me, she made a sign to Cloud so that he'd drop the subject because Elmyra wasn't ready yet to change her mind. Clearly, I think that if she'd still be bent on not going, they would have gone nonetheless, but they tried to get her approval, especially since Wedge was with her at that time.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Buuut Aerith traded herself for Marlene, and Elmyra knows this. That was also Aerith's wish.
And for that matter, if the player gets the convo with Aerith, she attempts to talk Cloud out of it.
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
Oh, cool. I’ve been working on that anyway. Can’t wait to have it.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Aerith was cornered in Sector Seven, she was buying her own survival as well as Marlene's with this deal. Hiring a bodyguard barely a day ago and risking being gunned down by Reno's goons to get away should still serve as a fairly obvious indicator that Aerith doesn't really like Shinra that much, would prefer not to be held in captivity if there were other options available beyond certain death or the death of children and doesn't think helping Shinra is gonna lead to much good.
Roger
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- Minato
You really have to clarify what initially means here, Cloud knows they've been looking into the Ancients for over 30 years, Elmyra knows Aerith was born into captivity and Iflana escaped when she was like 7. Even if they believe they'll return Aerith when they are done, they have no reason to suddenly rule out that idea after a week, or a month. It's just as possible that they'll return when they are done, 10 years of captivity later. Rescuing Aerith doesn't become a better idea after waiting initially. Nor does anything in that underground facility make it a better idea. The people in those pods were just as disposable as the people of Sector Seven, unlike Aerith.
Cloud and Tifa were obviously always sufficiently motivated to go after Aerith, but in Chapter 13 doing their characters' justice was secondary to being able to pad the game some more. Which sucks.
Cloud and Tifa were obviously always sufficiently motivated to go after Aerith, but in Chapter 13 doing their characters' justice was secondary to being able to pad the game some more. Which sucks.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
The "initially" is in reference to Aerith and Elmyra, not Avalanche (who are understandably deferring to Elmyra's own wishes, since she is the aggrieved parent in this situation).
I personally think the initial hesitancy the characters have in Chapter 13 are perfectly understandable reactions to have and don't "butcher" the character writing (but rather enhances them), especially after the Plate collapse. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to ever see eye-to-eye on this point, so for the benefit of the thread and wanting to avoid circular arguments/replies, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
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lithiumkatana17
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lith
Playing through this section again and DAMN my heart is breaking.
And it's not so much the drop of the plate that's emotional, it's everything afterward. John Bentley just completely nails the emotions of what Barret is feeling right now; he's the only member of the gang that's a parent, so that desperation you hear in his tone of voice is just... ugh. I'm in tears.
You can even hear his voice crack when he shouts Wedge's name. That's some good stuff. Wherever this remake takes us, at least I know this character is in good hands.
And it's not so much the drop of the plate that's emotional, it's everything afterward. John Bentley just completely nails the emotions of what Barret is feeling right now; he's the only member of the gang that's a parent, so that desperation you hear in his tone of voice is just... ugh. I'm in tears.
You can even hear his voice crack when he shouts Wedge's name. That's some good stuff. Wherever this remake takes us, at least I know this character is in good hands.
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
I couldn't wait for this scene. He really nailed it. The English cast and script never ceases to impress me in this game.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Barret's VA is just phenomenal. If there are awards for voice acting he should win one. That's not to say they aren't all excellent, but he stands out to me. There's never a moment when Barret's on screen that I don't enjoy.
Shademp
420
- The battle victory-banter between Cloud and Barret is way more encouraging in Ch13. They actually start cheering each other on and genuinely congratulating each other. I'm assuming this will carry throughout the rest of the game. It's a highly appreciated way to show that the characters have bonded.
- Wishing they added new battle-victory lines to Tifa as well. We get it Tifa. You really, REALLY want that shower. Is this Tifa's new arc? The Shower That Never Was?
- Listening in on the character development of both New Recruit and Senior Officer was top notch satisfaction. I always loved these guys in the original game and (the) Remake makes me love them even more.
- NPC detection (for text logs and audio clips) just went off the rails in Ch13
. Almost to the point that you might as well play the game blind-folded whenever you try to intentionally trigger NPC dialogue. I can run around for twenty minutes and still miss some lines because there is an extremely precise angle from which you must approach NPCs in order to hear what they have to say.
Fortunately they limit the number of NPCs and available lines compared to previous chapters, so I am saved a great deal of pain. Many more NPCs are silent here
. In certain parts I wonder if the silent NPCs is an intentional choice to emphasize how stunned people are at this point in the game or if they just worked less on Ch13 in this regard.
- All the game had to do would be to kill off Wymer and one of the shop keepers and I would have felt like the writers/developers did a decent job at making you feel the loss from the plate drop. My heart sank when it turned out that all of these people were alive. It's a downer because it's such a clear example of the developers "not getting it", in terms of what contributes to the emotional impact of a catastrophe in fiction.
- If you are completely new to FFVII and go in without knowing what happens to Wedge, I imagine you will feel a sense of relief from finding him in the underground facility and learning that he's still alive. Meanwhile I'm blocking out most emotions because I feel like this guy:
Emotions may also be inhibited by familiar players because it feels like Wedge has served his purpose so what's the point in bringing him back now? Again, I suspect that those who go into FFVIIR unawares will have slightly different emotions since they don't go in with the same expectations.
- Wishing they added new battle-victory lines to Tifa as well. We get it Tifa. You really, REALLY want that shower. Is this Tifa's new arc? The Shower That Never Was?
- Listening in on the character development of both New Recruit and Senior Officer was top notch satisfaction. I always loved these guys in the original game and (the) Remake makes me love them even more.
- NPC detection (for text logs and audio clips) just went off the rails in Ch13
and in many parts in Ch14
Fortunately they limit the number of NPCs and available lines compared to previous chapters, so I am saved a great deal of pain. Many more NPCs are silent here
and the same in Ch14
- All the game had to do would be to kill off Wymer and one of the shop keepers and I would have felt like the writers/developers did a decent job at making you feel the loss from the plate drop. My heart sank when it turned out that all of these people were alive. It's a downer because it's such a clear example of the developers "not getting it", in terms of what contributes to the emotional impact of a catastrophe in fiction.
- If you are completely new to FFVII and go in without knowing what happens to Wedge, I imagine you will feel a sense of relief from finding him in the underground facility and learning that he's still alive. Meanwhile I'm blocking out most emotions because I feel like this guy:
Emotions may also be inhibited by familiar players because it feels like Wedge has served his purpose so what's the point in bringing him back now? Again, I suspect that those who go into FFVIIR unawares will have slightly different emotions since they don't go in with the same expectations.
youffie
Pro Adventurer
- Wishing they added new battle-victory lines to Tifa as well. We get it Tifa. You really, REALLY want that shower. Is this Tifa's new arc? The Shower That Never Was?
OMYGOD THIS
Glaurung
Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
- AKA
- Mama Dragon
Oookay...
- Barret. Just Barret. My god, how a good VA makes a world of difference! I mean, all the other VAs are excellent, but John E. Bentley takes the cake. He makes Barret go from dorky, to dangerous, to tear-jerking mess, to dotting father (his interaction with Marlene made me melt). Wow!
- Hallucinations, and that we see through Tifa that it doesn't take a Sephiroth clone for Cloud to see things.
- Cloud is scared shitless of Sephiroth. Also, Sephiroth's words regarding Cloud wanting to become stronger.
- As much as people might see Elmyra's reaction as illogical, she has seen throughout the years how the Turks treat her daughter, more like bodyguards than abductors (courtesy of Tseng). Remember that she's, first and foremost, her mother, and she even be deluding herself into thinking that nothing will happen to Aerith as long as they comply with Shinra. She's wrong, of course, but then again, she never saw the true Shinra.
- Younger Elmyra. At long last they bothered on modeling a younger version of a character! Makes me hopeful for Hojo.
- Ifalna... *sobs*
- Baby Aerith is so cute!!!!11!1!
- Deepground facility. Wasn't expecting that, tbh. Also, the flashback from Cloud being in a mako tank.
- I was truly expecting to find Wedge dead, later, to find that he had died while you battled the failed experiment. Now I'm just waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop and discover that he ended up dead somewhere down the road...
- Tseng and his eternal youthful looks. Maybe he's an experiment?
- Seeing the two guards again. The new recruit is horrified, but the veteran who wanted to follow the orders is simply paralyzed when he realized they hadn't been told that the plate would fall over them too and that they were intended to keep the people inside so the carnage would be bigger still. I sense a change fo loyalties...