SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Weeros]

First off, no one was promised or guaranteed any particular kind of Remake, it was always the writer's choice and decision. Just like every other game they've made in their careers. This was not like a contractual obligation or commission off of Kickstarter. No one was owed or expected anything when the OG came out in '97, so why would that be the case now. And it was said several times in their "Making of FFVII Remake" series, it was not going to be a 1:1 remake of the game.

I really dislike referring to 1:1 here. That makes no sense, it’s a definition of a strawman argument. 1:1 means the game that is already out on PS4 and Switch. Obviously nobody expected/wanted that.

A lot of people expected an expanded version that would be the definite, standalone edition of the FFVII story. Expected, based on hype and marketing around the game. Nobody thinks they were guaranteed anything obviously, but it’s still a fact that thousands and thousands of people are currently disappointed thinking they got something different than what they thought they were getting when buying FFVII Remake. Saying ”Psyche! You didn’t count on ”remake” technically also meaning making it into something completely different” doesn’t change or invalidate that disappointment either.. on the contrary.

The concepts of the Whispers and their scheme towards holding true to the outline of events of the original story, is an example of something only fans experienced with the original game would pick up on. For any one new or wholly unaware, as stated by players who have no idea of the OG, they found it simply to be an unexplained plot thread waiting to be spun. When everyone keeps saying it's not "new player friendly," that runs counter to the myriad of new fans.. Who are enjoying it, finding no problem with it, and are just simply motivated to stick around or play the OG and find out the original game the Remake is referencing. That's not "new player unfriendly." That's called generating interesting.

While certainly many newcomers are enjoying the game, there are still many new people who are left confused or feeling like they should’ve known more. I’ve seen many accounts from newcomers across the internet, in various languages, about the story not making sense or a sense of missing key information, leading them to googling plot of the original and spoiling that.

Ultimately, it’s naturally a matter of opinion how much background information is necessary (again, I’m sure Empire Strikes Back or Avengers Age of Ultron etc. can be enjoyed without any previous knowledge). Yet you can’t deny a major part of FFVIIR part 1 essentially being a reaction to og FFVII’s plot, which is highlighted much further by how tacked on the time ghosts feel, how out of place the last chapters are etc. It’s so obvious the ”fate” is not something that makes sense in the context of the world itself first, but only exists because of real world reasons, ie. the og FFVII existing. To many fans that feels reductive, derivitive, because again the way this game and the series will turn up will be a reaction to the og both from in-universe and real-world sense. Which is also very much true for that Kitase quote on Sephiroth.

A sequel by definition requires the understanding of a direct sequence of previous events, to have the context of what's going on now.

The first thing I said was that this is just semantics as people can actually define sequel quite differently, so responding with a definition of sequel is not a great choice. Also I’m sure you yourself can come up with many sequels to games, movies, books etc. which don’t really require much context or knowledge of sequence from the previous entries...

Again one can call it a requel, remix, reboot, re:make or re:mind but in my posts I tried to highlight why many fans feel sequel is the most honest and appropriate designation. Of course a lot of this will still depend on how the whole series will turn out.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What would "the definitive version" of FFVII even look like at this point?

 

[Wol]

It doesn't matter the potential meaning of Remake, any word can be subverted.

But at the core of the fans request for one, was the desire to relive FFVII with modern technology. In a sense, it could be said what we asked for all this time was simply an adaptation of the original.

By (poorly) adding random elements that can alter totally the context of the story, it's understandable that many feel betrayed.

If the majority wanted a sequel or reboot for this long-awaited project, they would have asked for one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I really dislike referring to 1:1 here. That makes no sense, it’s a definition of a strawman argument. 1:1 means the game that is already out on PS4 and Switch. Obviously nobody expected/wanted that.

A lot of people expected an expanded version that would be the definite, standalone edition of the FFVII story. Expected, based on hype and marketing around the game. Nobody thinks they were guaranteed anything obviously, but it’s still a fact that thousands and thousands of people are currently disappointed thinking they got something different than what they thought they were getting when buying FFVII Remake. Saying ”Psyche! You didn’t count on ”remake” technically also meaning making it into something completely different” doesn’t change or invalidate that disappointment either.. on the contrary.

Whatever arbitrary standard you wish to impose on the Remake is your choice. However, the creators of the actual story who are the ones doing it, have no obligation to meet your standard. Nor, you to theirs. If you wish to partake in it, just like everything else, you take it as is. Assuming there's some "definitive" version of FFVII waiting to be realized by some arbitrary metric outside of the creator's is fallacious and frankly, entitled. You were never promised the version of FFVII that you constructed or imagined. FFVII existed as is. Just like every other FF out there. The Remake has nothing to prove other than to be itself.

While certainly many newcomers are enjoying the game, there are still many new people who are left confused or feeling like they should’ve known more. I’ve seen many accounts from newcomers across the internet, in various languages, about the story not making sense or a sense of missing key information, leading them to googling plot of the original and spoiling that.

Ultimately, it’s naturally a matter of opinion how much background information is necessary (again, I’m sure Empire Strikes Back or Avengers Age of Ultron etc. can be enjoyed without any previous knowledge). Yet you can’t deny a major part of FFVIIR part 1 essentially being a reaction to og FFVII’s plot, which is highlighted much further by how tacked on the time ghosts feel, how out of place the last chapters are etc. It’s so obvious the ”fate” is not something that makes sense in the context of the world itself first, but only exists because of real world reasons, ie. the og FFVII existing. To many fans that feels reductive, derivitive, because again the way this game and the series will turn up will be a reaction to the og both from in-universe and real-world sense. Which is also very much true for that Kitase quote on Sephiroth.

Okay, and that's like any other Final Fantasy or modern JRPG. So, it's not really surprising at all. There's a new twist and overarching meta-plot that requires sticking around to see it's unfolding. That's new to fiction, how?

And I can deny that, because that's what I'm saying Just because there are obvious mysteries and plot threads meant to be noticed by older fans, doesn't mean they're necessary for the understanding of the game's story on it's own. Which is ultimately FFVII's. The entirety of the new unfolding plot, alongside the present plot, are all things that are meant to be understood in the future, not now. Your transposing the understanding and context of the surrounding history of FFVII and it's lore, is not necessary for any other person to enjoy the game. That's the projection of perspective, onto other people. That's no different than fans of FFVII assuming the only way for new fans to get into it, is by playing the OG first, and that's it. That's simply not the reality.

And again, the Remake and the OG are separate. The Remake was never meant to replace or supplant the original. In fact, Nomura said the opposite, stating he wants people who enjoy the Remake to play the original FFVII as well. The Remake and the OG are distinct games that come from different times, and with different contexts. The Remake of FFVII was always going to be.. A remake of FFVII. That doesn't make it reductive or derivative. That just makes it what it is, as it's own unique game. Only someone who places negative connotation on that fact would perceive it as such.

The first thing I said was that this is just semantics as people can actually define sequel quite differently, so responding with a definition of sequel is not a great choice. Also I’m sure you yourself can come up with many sequels to games, movies, books etc. which don’t really require much context or knowledge of sequence from the previous entries...

Again one can call it a requel, remix, reboot, re:make or re:mind but in my posts I tried to highlight why many fans feel sequel is the most honest and appropriate designation. Of course a lot of this will still depend on how the whole series will turn out.

But you're the one calling it a sequel, when it's not. We have no confirmation, or explanation that says this is a sequel to FFVII. That's a theory based on the interpretation of unexplained events within the game. A game utilizing concepts of time, fantasy, and memories most certainly doesn't necessitate the explanation of it all being a sequel. People can feel all they want about it, but that doesn't make it fact. It isn't a sequel, and basing it on points we have no actual answers to because the series is still ongoing, is not firm ground for understanding.

 

[Weeros]

Whatever arbitrary standard you wish to impose on the Remake is your choice. However, the creators of the actual story who are the ones doing it, have no obligation to meet your standard. Nor, you to theirs. If you wish to partake in it, just like everything else, you take it as is. Assuming there's some "definitive" version of FFVII waiting to be realized by some arbitrary metric outside of the creator's is fallacious and frankly, entitled. You were never promised the version of FFVII that you constructed or imagined. FFVII existed as is. Just like every other FF out there. The Remake has nothing to prove other than to be itself.

What you’re stating here is kinda obvious - yes, the makers of anything can make it anything they want. Nobody is denying this. I’m trying to explain why people feel deeply betrayed. You’re basically saying it’s their own fault, which is of course true as well, but saying it’s unfounded is in my opinion disingenious considering all the real world discourse over 23 years of waiting a remake.

Also, saying it’s arbitrary standard I have is particularly disingenious when it’s so uncanny how many people again all over the internet have described exactly the same feeling of betrayal after the tone changes in the final chapters. It’s not my standard, but shared by a considerable number of people.

The entirety of the new unfolding plot, alongside the present plot, are all things that are meant to be understood in the future, not now. Your transposing the understanding and context of the surrounding history of FFVII and it's lore, is not necessary for any other person to enjoy the game.

Except we do understand it already now, not in the future (Spoiler: We are the plot ghosts protecting the story of the original!). Just acting oblivious to the real world dependency to the plot of the previous game in the series does not mean it doesn’t exist.

It is the future that doesn’t exist yet, and with COVID19 and all, who knows what (and when) the continuation of this series will turn out to be. Currently only part one exists, and people can only react to that. I do acknowledge future parts may completely either undo or reinforce the sense of betrayal, or the sense of ”sequelness” the remake currently evokes. Even with your strict standards I’m sure, for instance if literally time travelling Sephiroth would be confirmed.

Remake and the OG are separate. The Remake was never meant to replace or supplant the original. In fact, Nomura said the opposite, stating he wants people who enjoy the Remake to play the original FFVII as well. The Remake and the OG are distinct games that come from different times, and with different contexts. The Remake of FFVII was always going to be.. A remake of FFVII.

As I’ve stated, this was not the expectation many people had. What you’re describing sounds kinda like, almost.. a new entry in the series to me. You know what we usually call new entries in the series?

But you're the one calling it a sequel, when it's not. We have no confirmation, or explanation that says this is a sequel to FFVII. That's a theory based on the interpretation of unexplained events within the game. A game utilizing concepts of time, fantasy, and memories most certainly doesn't necessitate the explanation of it all being a sequel. People can feel all they want about it, but that doesn't make it fact.

Now you’re talking about semantics again. E.g. does the author have exclusive right to define what constitutes a sequel or can the audience define that based on the piece of art (death of the author)? Does being a sequel require sequence in the in-game narrative (is SMB2 not a sequel?)? What happens to sequence if time in the narrative is not linear? What if there’s no actual timeloop, so time’s linear but experiences flow freely back and forth from all timelines? What if there’s no sequence in narrative but gameplay, yet the game is clearly defined a sequel by the author (ie. is Dark Souls II not a sequel since it has very little narratively to do with the first one?) ? It’s all just a matter of pitting one definition against another, it’s pointless if we don’t get into what people want to express when they say x is a sequel.

The problem is precisely that many people feel strongly that it’s a sequel rather than independent work because
A) so many elements in-universe, not to mention characters, are happening or acting certain way purely based on what happened in og FFVII. This just doesn’t change even if there are people who don’t perceive it.
b) they can easily see the creative decisions made not in the service of a definitive narrative, but real-world factors resulting from the game trying to diffrentiate itself from the original. It’s kind of an opposite effect to Force Awakens feeling derivitive because we can tell a lot of what the plot had was remake of New Hope for real world reasons, instead of it being a ”real sequel” (again, contrary to our initial hopes and expectations of what a new Star Wars movie could be).

What would "the definitive version" of FFVII even look like at this point?

For me personally, current FFVIIR that doesn’t bend over backwards trying to account for real world narrative concerns (such as how well known Sephiroth is, how cool the final fight must look like, how much some people wanna see ”their boi” live despite that messing up all the stakes and especially how desperately they need to have an excuse to change some major things just for the sake of keeping social media theorizing alive for three years) would come pretty darn close.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

When you say "how well known Sephiroth is" you mean in our real world, not their fictional world, right?

I think it's a little bit cynical to suggests that all the creative changes they made were inspired by nothing more than the desire to keep twitter twittering. No author is interested in writing the same book twice. I don't think it was unreasonable of them to believe, or hope, that Final Fantasy fans might be interested in seeing what new directions they wanted to explore in their game, 23 years after the original was released.

At the same time, they are a business. If they don't sell games, they'll stop making games. Of course they have to make decisions with an eye to the bottom line. I can't even begin to imagine how many people's livelihoods are dependent on that line. Of course they always have to think about sales and marketing. It would be irresponsible and self-indulgent of them not to.

It's perfectly fair and reasonable to criticise the Remake and all the things one doesn't like in it. I don't really think it's on, though, to accuse the creative leadership team of bad faith.

 

[Odysseus]

Yaaaay 100 pages of insanity. This is one for the history books.

Here's something I've been thinking about, sort of tangentially related to the current conversation. From a narrative standpoint, Sephiroth now makes himself known to the party much earlier than before, that's to say nothing of actually fighting them. I understand why people mourn the loss of his build up from the original. On the other hand, from an in-game time scale, does that build up not also occur in the remake as is?

How long did it take you to reach the cargo ship in the original, when Sephiroth appears before the party for the first time? I'd say it took me about 18 hours. By contrast, I didn't reach the end of the Remake until about 45 hours in. So it actually took longer to see him "for real" in the Remake. I know that's not the heart of the issue though, its the fact you see Sephiroth at all before the Nibelhiem flash back that's the real problem.

I've been trying to think about this as a new player who doesn't already know who the pretty silver-haired man is. Why does he keep appearing before Cloud? Why can't anybody else see him? What's going on with all these cryptic things he's saying? A new player wouldn't know anything about it, it'd all be pretty mysterious and suspenseful. Then you get to the end of the game, and it turns out these crazy ghost things aren't going nuts because of Shinra. Shinra ain't shit. It's because of this guy. He must be one baaaaad dude. The Remake also doesn't explain like, anything at all about Sephiroth or his motivations, so that leaves the new player wondering who he is and what's going on even after the the game is over.

That was all a bit rambling, but does it make sense? I still like how he was handled originally better, but the remake builds him up in its own way.

 

[looneymoon]

To me, the ending wasn't exactly... unexpected. It's the kind of thing the thing I was really hoping they wouldn't do, what with how modern Square Enix stories tend to be.

When the ending came around I felt more like this than anything:

 

[Strangelove]

there was a period where it felt like square's bigger titles were all doing this kind of timeline shifting alternate realities stuff (and i can only name ffxiii-2 and the 3rd birthday and i will not be taking questions at this time)

so this was nostalgic in a number of ways

 

[Master Bates]

I'm very frustrated with the ending, too, but I can't truly be mad about it.

I'm sure I've already said this a bunch of times already, I barely understood the last 2-3 chapters of the game. But I loved every moment I spent in the slums, which were rendered in great detail. As someone who grew up in a slum area, the game's environment (albeit a lot 'cleaner' than actual slums where you CAN and WILL see dog poop on passageways) really reminded me of my childhood home that we lost in a fire because houses were made with light materials and were erected so close to each other. To me, it added another layer of sweet nostalgia. The narrow passageways and alleys reminded me of 'not-so-secret' paths I used to take as 'shortcuts' to places. The stores, the empty lots where people congregate, the decrepit buildings, the people hanging out around them... I loved all of it, which is why my favorite parts to replay are in the earlier parts. Admittedly, the Sector 7 slum looks closer to my 'childhood slum' than the Sector 5 does, but they're both beautiful places to me. So I'm very thankful for the developers for making this game and I find it hard for myself to be even remotely mad at them.

While I am still less enthusiastic with the possibility of timeline shenanigans, I have eased myself to the idea these past few days. I'm looking forward to the next installments even if it'll take years.

 

[Strangelove]

i will accept it wholly if someone can put forward an aggressive reading of the text about how all this destiny stuff is a meta-commentary on the real world process of remaking a classic work

 

[looneymoon]

^ I think that is part of my problem with it? I don't think having a meta-commentary in of itself makes something worthwhile. IMO, the meta-commentary in FF7R is quite hollow (pun intended).

I think in this age of remakes/reboots, the meta-commentary angle is also getting quite... tired. I don't think people's enjoyment of a story should rely on the consumption of supplementary materials. I really feel that if a text doesn't stand up on its own, that is reflective of the text itself.

 

[Odysseus]

The joke is that we don't have confirmation it even is meta commentary (do we?) It's just people taking it that way because the trope has become common.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

What would "the definitive version" of FFVII even look like at this point?

Once the Remake is completed, a full boxset with the following:

- All parts of the Remake, upscaled to whatever the current-gen top resolution is and with all bonus DLC (regardless of what it is) baked in, with all current/archival press and interview materials
- The OG game, using whatever is considered the "best" version (PC upscaled?). If we're going full-on completionist, then include all archival BTS materials and demos
- All of the tie-in mobile games (G-Bike/Snowboarding/DoC Lost Episode/Before Crisis) upscaled or remastered
- All of the Compilation Works (DoC/CC/AC/novellas), with the games upscaled or remastered
- New BTS materials reflecting on the legacy of the game/impact of Remake

A man can dream.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I feel as if I'm wandering in a hall of mirrors....

 

[looneymoon]

The jokes is that we don't have confirmation it even is meta commentary (do we?) It's just people taking it that way because the trope has become common.

Not trying to single you out but like.... why are discussions about Final Fantasy like this? Is outside confirmation really necessary? I don't ever see this type of over-reliance on word of god in other fandoms.

I think it's pretty clear that the whispers are used as meta-commentary by virtue of how they function in the plot.

 

[Strangelove]

^ I think that is part of my problem with it? I don't think having a meta-commentary in of itself makes something worthwhile. IMO, the meta-commentary in FF7R is quite hollow (pun intended).

I think in this age of remakes/reboots, the meta-commentary angle is also getting quite... tired. I don't think people's enjoyment of a story should rely on the consumption of supplementary materials. I really feel that if a text doesn't stand up on its own, that is reflective of the text itself.

honestly i just want something other than timeline shenanigans to focus on, especially in a story that never had that stuff before and it's just suddenly added in the form of spooky ghosts

 

[Odysseus]

Not trying to single you out but like.... why are discussions about Final Fantasy like this? Is outside confirmation really necessary? I don't ever see this type of over-reliance on word of god in other fandoms.

I think it's pretty clear that the whispers are used as meta-commentary by virtue of how they function in the plot.

Don't worry about it. I do think it is meta commentary too, how else are we supposed to take it? I'm just saying that people are operating on the assumption it is because being "meta" has become a typical trope now. Between Undertale, DDLC, Homestuck, and dozens of other things, I think people are getting tired of it.

 

[oty]

I think it's the opposite for me. The metanarrative that the Whispers seemingly bring are the only good thing about them in my opinion. That's why for me the last chapter was only interesting when it blew my mind showing "AC" scenes, bc it was completely unexpected and bold. Everything else felt..."tame". To the characters it feels...unhandled. To the player it feels...mindblowing.

It reminded a lot of fighting Psycho Mantis, and switch the controller ports. Or the Colonel in MGS2, telling you to turn the console off. You cant believe the developers actually put that in the game, and your mind just goes haywire.

 

[Shademp]

I don't ever see this type of over-reliance on word of god in other fandoms.

B-B-B-B-BUT

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, we did just spend a week scrounging around Twitter for Ultimania translations. We clearly put some weight on what the creators have to say.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What you’re stating here is kinda obvious - yes, the makers of anything can make it anything they want. Nobody is denying this. I’m trying to explain why people feel deeply betrayed. You’re basically saying it’s their own fault, which is of course true as well, but saying it’s unfounded is in my opinion disingenious considering all the real world discourse over 23 years of waiting a remake.

Also, saying it’s arbitrary standard I have is particularly disingenious when it’s so uncanny how many people again all over the internet have described exactly the same feeling of betrayal after the tone changes in the final chapters. It’s not my standard, but shared by a considerable number of people.

"A lot of people" feel "betrayed" by Warner Bros. because they believe they're withholding a hitherto unknown, and magical version of Justice League that isn't a dumpster fire.

Just because a contingent of the internet believes something and voices it doesn't make it valid. Your bad faith assumption (and that's what it becomes when you use words like "betray" and "dishonest") is built solely from your own self ascribed expectations. Which were not even discussed, let alone promised for this project.

Except we do understand it already now, not in the future (Spoiler: We are the plot ghosts protecting the story of the original!). Just acting oblivious to the real world dependency to the plot of the previous game in the series does not mean it doesn’t exist.

There's a difference between dependency to pick up on secondary creative commentary and overarching setting references to the past. And dependency for understanding the actual storyline. The Remake doesn't leave you completely ignorant about what Part 1 in Midgar is supposed to be.

It is the future that doesn’t exist yet, and with COVID19 and all, who knows what (and when) the continuation of this series will turn out to be. Currently only part one exists, and people can only react to that. I do acknowledge future parts may completely either undo or reinforce the sense of betrayal, or the sense of ”sequelness” the remake currently evokes. Even with your strict standards I’m sure, for instance if literally time travelling Sephiroth would be confirmed.

As I’ve stated, this was not the expectation many people had. What you’re describing sounds kinda like, almost.. a new entry in the series to me. You know what we usually call new entries in the series?

And reacting in an aggrieved manner because a narrative in flux didn't go in your preferred expected direction is presumptuous. You and others may feel that particular way, but that feeling does not somehow justify itself alone. Anyone can feel any sort of way just through the subjectivity of human experience. Sorry you feel you somehow were lied to or betrayed. That's not their fault.

Now you’re talking about semantics again. E.g. does the author have exclusive right to define what constitutes a sequel or can the audience define that based on the piece of art (death of the author)? Does being a sequel require sequence in the in-game narrative (is SMB2 not a sequel?)? What happens to sequence if time in the narrative is not linear? What if there’s no actual timeloop, so time’s linear but experiences flow freely back and forth from all timelines? What if there’s no sequence in narrative but gameplay, yet the game is clearly defined a sequel by the author (ie. is Dark Souls II not a sequel since it has very little narratively to do with the first one?) ? It’s all just a matter of pitting one definition against another, it’s pointless if we don’t get into what people want to express when they say x is a sequel.

The problem is precisely that many people feel strongly that it’s a sequel rather than independent work because
A) so many elements in-universe, not to mention characters, are happening or acting certain way purely based on what happened in og FFVII. This just doesn’t change even if there are people who don’t perceive it.
b) they can easily see the creative decisions made not in the service of a definitive narrative, but real-world factors resulting from the game trying to diffrentiate itself from the original. It’s kind of an opposite effect to Force Awakens feeling derivitive because we can tell a lot of what the plot had was remake of New Hope for real world reasons, instead of it being a ”real sequel” (again, contrary to our initial hopes and expectations of what a new Star Wars movie could be).

What if it's only a Remake that carries its own unique meta-commentary and references to an established canon?

You can ask "what-if" until the heat-death of the universe, looking for proof or evidence of a conspiracy to deceive the hapless FFVII fan. Or. You can wait and see, and not make assumptions that ascribe malice to justify your dissatisfaction over a video game's direction.

A feeling based on negative criticism and bad faith interpretations of the writer's in question is the only perspective you're working from, because you received a product that didn't meet your expectations. That's not semantics. And this is not a sequel.

 

[Wol]

Preview of Zack alive in another timeline, with alt-Clad and alt-Tifa.

Nomura's fanfic is getting out of hand

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Which were not even discussed, let alone promised for this project.

This discussion gets more painful to read with each response to this altogether different proposition than the observation @Weeros was making in their opening post. =|

Hi! Sorry to do this as the first post, as I’ve been mostly lurking these fascinating discussions for now but...

I was wondering why is this still being debated? Isn’t this purely about semantics now? I mean, the facts are that

1. The game is not the remake many fans expected, ie. something that would work as independent piece outside other FFVII lore (mainly the og), or as the definitive edition of the original game

2. The game’s major plot device, the fate dementors, depend entirely on the plot of the original to work and exist. Besides the whispers themselves, even the main characters (Aerith, Sephiroth, potentially Cloud) are aware of the events in previous timeloop, ie. FFVII, and that knowledge affects their actions in this story. These actions, eg. Sephiroth’s simply don’t make sense without acknowledging the previous iteration. It’s not just that the key moments flashed by the whispers need to be prevented - it’s basically every step along the way, taken in the og, that drove them there.

It’s really the same thing with the payoffs too. Any value or meaning anyone will place on Zack’s miraculous survival is based entirely on the fanbase built on him in previous games, and knowing that he is supposed to die. Independently it’s just a hunh? moment here.

3. The game is, despite the developers efforts and claims, quite unfriendly to newcomers. It simply relies too much on the og story being the first version and this being clearly the ”second go”. Not just the the major plot elements, the tacked on plot ghosts and Zack, but even Sephiroth’s proper build up is skipped based on the assumption the player already knows his reputation. You could try argue ”they’ll figure it out” or ”fill the gaps”, yet I could say that about eg. Empire Strikes Back or any other properly marketed sequel too.

To summarize, I think when people claim ”it’s a sequel!”, it’s not derived from it’s exact placement in the game narrative’s concept of time, but how the game’s narrative positions itself next to the other games. You could call the game ”requel” if that helps but I think that’s besides the point people are trying to make.

It’s interesting that in a sense, imho FFVIIR is much more a sequel than for instance Breath of the Wild which would actually work really well as Zelda 1 reimagining, yet has clearly stated to take place at the end of the existing Zelda timeline. Same could be said about Abrams’ Star Trek in comparison - that too requires much less knowledge of previous stories to work, despite featuring many same characters, even same incarnations (old Spock) from previous series.

I believe you are absolutely correct that "sequel" as many folks are using it in relation to this product is less a Doylist remark on the remake's Watsonian temporal parameters and more a purely Doylist observation of the sensibilities involved in the design process. Without even getting into other persistently contested matters of meta-commentary or enduringly quibblesome questions about continuity, Kitase's comments about Sephiroth's introduction absolutely convey this -- as do Nomura and Nojima's explanations about this title's development within the scope of the wider Compilation of FFVII.

It of course remains to be seen the extent to which these influences will inform digestion of the remake project writ large, but it also raises intriguing questions of whether a remake of the sort long requested was ever possible to begin with even within this same medium given that the tools utilized have evolved so far since 1996. Certainly, for those and other reasons, there are many at this time, even among those who wanted it, asking whether such a remake even should have happened -- but that's absolutely not possible to answer definitively.

What I find most curious of all right now, though, is my own response. I was never one jonesing for a remake, but a year ago I absolutely would have felt that what they're doing here should have sought to pretend they were making this game in a world that had never seen the original FFVII and for audiences for whom it didn't matter whether they already knew who Sephiroth is. Now that I have actually seen the released product, however, I've found increasing comfort in how divorced it is from the original. I dare say I'm actually enjoying it more on a level of pure emotional investment than I would have otherwise, though I suspect I'm also less engaged with it intellectually for the same reason.

Hackneyed though it was in how it went about getting to this point, for me this requel (fantastic word, by the way!) has provided me a certain unexpected freedom. I am less than anxious about the stakes of any of this while still feeling genuinely excited to see where they're going to take a reimagining.

 

[Keveh Kins]

I am at what I presume is the final boss fight and have no fucking clue what's going on.

Things get messy in stories about alternate timelines. I'm not sure about this.

Time to beat the game and see what happens.