cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
Dark was an element in one of the demo's enemy intel tabs.
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SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
Dark was an element in one of the demo's enemy intel tabs.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
Alright, so I wasn't misremembering things!
I hope the future installments eventually add Water, Earth, Darkness, and Light/Holy to the game mechanics (I would be satisfied even if they don't add corresponding materia). Leviathan and Titan having to be non-elemental summons feels weird to me.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I'm guessing those elements were left out because Midgar's enemy roster didn't accommodate them very much. I am a little surprised at the omission of a water element though, between leviathan, the sahagins and those puffer fish looking enemies, I think there was enough precedent to include it. I'll be disappointed if aqualung isn't an enemy skill in the future, anyway.
billy22
Pro Adventurer
Would Aerith's comment about how Zack was 'the first boy I ever loved' be a decent reason for why Zack is dead (and a reason against the AU)? Because that means their relationship from the compilation material was retained, while also indicating she hasn't seen him in a long time. If he were still alive it would stand to reason that he would go see her asap, right?
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
There's (almost?) a universal rule for enemy weaknesses in the remake:
Humans are weak to fire
Mechs are weak to electricity
Monsters are weak to ice
Aerial enemies are weak to wind
I like this. It's easy to follow and now I can make optimal materia setups based off my knowledge of each area.
I don't like it when enemies have seemingly random weaknesses (e.g. Persona series). You basically have to throw every element at the enemy when you first encounter them and hope it doesn't accidentally heal them.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Except billy, that she made that comment well before the Whispers were defeated. With them gone, it appears that lots of things have been changed, including whether Zack is alive or dead. We'll have to wait for Part 2 to know for sure, but I think more's going to change than some people think. The Whispers were, I think, a way for SE to free themselves from the constraints of the OG's plot so they can move in completely new directions no one is expecting.
snatchr
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Snatchr
The leak thread is really funny in hindsight.
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
As someone who's looking forward to future parts, I've built up some cynical thoughts while reading all the negativity towards the ending online. I am allowing it to boil over here:
FFs with time travel: I, VIII
FFs where the last boss appears out of nowhere: III, IX
FFs where a character is conveniently resurrected: X (post-credit scene)
All made by the hallowed Squaresoft.
Yet FF7R's ending is being labeled as "Nomura bullshit".
I'm not arguing that FF7R's ending is great. Everyone agrees that it could've been delivered better. However, FF has never been a benchmark for sensible narratives. What's always been most important are the endearing characters, imaginative worlds, innovative gameplay, and masterclass soundtracks.
All of which FF7R delivers in spades.
I can understand how some players feel deceived or betrayed. However, despite thoroughly being in the "Zack is Back" camp (which should totally be part 2's tagline), I think the party will travel the same path they did in the OG. If you liked the characterization and worldbuilding in part 1, well, there's no reason to believe they won't keep up that quality going forward.
FFs with time travel: I, VIII
FFs where the last boss appears out of nowhere: III, IX
FFs where a character is conveniently resurrected: X (post-credit scene)
All made by the hallowed Squaresoft.
Yet FF7R's ending is being labeled as "Nomura bullshit".
I'm not arguing that FF7R's ending is great. Everyone agrees that it could've been delivered better. However, FF has never been a benchmark for sensible narratives. What's always been most important are the endearing characters, imaginative worlds, innovative gameplay, and masterclass soundtracks.
All of which FF7R delivers in spades.
I can understand how some players feel deceived or betrayed. However, despite thoroughly being in the "Zack is Back" camp (which should totally be part 2's tagline), I think the party will travel the same path they did in the OG. If you liked the characterization and worldbuilding in part 1, well, there's no reason to believe they won't keep up that quality going forward.
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Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
Dude I am a huge fan of time travel and alternate dimensions as a plot feature.
I am not a fan of inserting time travel and alternate dimensions as a plot band-aid or as filler, or as some meta-commentary on the creators subverting expectations. I want to be able to take the story seriously, and if the story isn’t fundamentally about time travel or alternate dimensions, it detracts rather than adds to it.
If you like it, I’m glad. But don’t say it’s the same as a story conceived with time travel in mind, like FFI, VIII, and XIII-2. It’s not part of FF7’s story, and it’s too big a plot element to be swept under the rug.
The party has had several flashes of precognition of events later in the story. Even if they never bring Destiny up again, when those moments happen they will be changed because the character’s experience of them is different — when the materia falls in the water, it’s not just going to be dramatic irony, it’s going to be Cloud grappling with the guilt of having failed to prevent his vision of the future.
And I think that’s fucking weak sauce.
I am not a fan of inserting time travel and alternate dimensions as a plot band-aid or as filler, or as some meta-commentary on the creators subverting expectations. I want to be able to take the story seriously, and if the story isn’t fundamentally about time travel or alternate dimensions, it detracts rather than adds to it.
If you like it, I’m glad. But don’t say it’s the same as a story conceived with time travel in mind, like FFI, VIII, and XIII-2. It’s not part of FF7’s story, and it’s too big a plot element to be swept under the rug.
The party has had several flashes of precognition of events later in the story. Even if they never bring Destiny up again, when those moments happen they will be changed because the character’s experience of them is different — when the materia falls in the water, it’s not just going to be dramatic irony, it’s going to be Cloud grappling with the guilt of having failed to prevent his vision of the future.
And I think that’s fucking weak sauce.
snatchr
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Snatchr
Its almost like FFVII had none of that before now and was better for it.
I wouldn't exactly be thrilled if an FFIX remake dropped in an evil corporation of planet sucking cyberpunk laden bigwigs despite it working so well in VII. And I don't think anyones really under any illusions that every squaresoft FF was a perfect game.
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
You can't take every component of the original seriously either. Some of the most nonsensical buildups lead to the best emotional payoffs. One moment you're thrown into the Gold Saucer prison, the next Barret is talking about his blood-stained hands. And sometimes the emotional buildups lead to nonsensical payoffs. Cid shares his dream of going to outer space, he believes Rufus will make it happen, oh just kidding, Rufus wants the Tiny Bronco and Palmer gets hit by a truck.
Despite that, we all take FF7's story very seriously.
And the remake can be taken seriously too. It's arguably more critical of capitalism than the original. In chapter 5 alone, Barret calls out Shinra's use of a cute mascot to push their propaganda. Tifa comments that Shinra will only do something about the Gashstrike infestation after there's an accident. We'll spend years uncovering other examples too.
Right. That's what I meant. Yet people want to blame Nomura, like it's been a problem since he started directing games.
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snatchr
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Snatchr
Ironically the only time I can really think the OG approaches Remake territory is Cait Siths bizarre non-sacrifice (depending how you read him) where he returns almost immediately and it doesn't really matter. Caits a goofy character so its easy to forgive and forget but Remake takes that and applies it to near every meaningful death in Midgar. As a consequence I feel nothing when a character is in any kind of danger, fake deaths are thrown around with wild abandon and none of the stakes have any weight anymore. Doubly so if we're going to start delving into whacky AU scenarios and bringing back some Uncle Bens n Thomas Waynes.
I don't think people have much of an issue with nonsensical storytelling, rather how its uprooting and devaluing everything around it. At least for me personally.
oty
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ex-soldier boy
Even if the premonitions of the future actually become a plot ploint that changes the situational circunstance of these moments, why is that different circunstances worse than the original? It is essentially different, but it can be done just as good as the original, if not better. X-SOLDIER brings about a beautiful summary of how these plot points can be brought together for the Remake, and if that was even partially part of their intentions, we can get some really good stuff out of this. Thats why I criticise the ending for it's structure - it's messy, it's jarring - but not for the ideas. Desty/Fate as an idea isnt inherently bad, of course not. And it is far from "KH". Otherwise, other FF and a lot of famous jRPGS are "KH" and thats completely ludicrous.
It remains to be seen the qualities of the OG7 compared to the Remake, which is also an extremely hard comparison to make. You can barely compare games from 10 years ago, imagine 23. It's too messy. And comparing ideas it's crazy. Is one bettet than the other? Thats completely subjective, depends on the execution, and completely personal.
And yeah, trust me. There are a lot of people who are hell bent on the idea that the Enix junction "screwed" Square and that it has never been as good before. Completely bullshit notion but yeah.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Theozilla said,
I agree.
I agree.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
I just finished the game today. I have a ton of thoughts on the story rolling around that I want to get out, so they are going in the below for anyone interested.
Apologies. I didn't intend to write THIS much. It just all kind of came out in a torrent.
So, I watched a couple of spoiler-free reviews before the game came out that mentioned the ending would be very controversial. I kind of regretted watching the reviews, as it created an expectation and uneasiness, but decided to put that in the back of my mind and just play the game. I absolutely loved 90% of the game. I was not expecting Square to slavishly stick to the original - they had to expand on stuff - and I loved a bunch of the expanded stories, especially the Ch. 4 mission with Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie. I also enjoyed the new Wall Market characters. But the game was generally sticking to the main story beats as the original, and seeing those in glorious modern graphics was amazing.
Of course, the main difference was that the Whispers kept showing up. When they would appear, I wasn't sure what to think of them. I originally thought they were some kind of manifestation of Sephiroth's will from the lifestream, but obviously I found out at the end of the game that was completely wrong. I also was a little perplexed when we saw glimpses of future events, such as Sephy clones walking to the crater, Aerith praying and the holy materia, etc. These were shown as being triggered in a similar way as Cloud's messed up memories, so of course I was thinking, "how is he seeing stuff that hasn't happened yet?" However, I simply concluded that maybe the writers decided to add some foreshadowing for fans, and maybe that Cloud's Jenova cells were trying to impress upon him what to do - e.g., participate in the reunion and don't let this ancient girl get in our way. I was even okay with Wedge surviving the plate falling (although the Whispers obviously weren't doing their job there). I really liked his character, and one of the three surviving was fine with me. Biggs' and Jesse's deaths were both really impactful.
I started to get a little worried around when we witnessed Sephiroth carrying Jenova away in Ch. 17, and leaving a trail of goo. In the original, we have this great scene where the party is captured, and Cloud wakes up to find his cell open, only for them to find trails of blood and dead bodies everywhere until you finally make your way up to find the president dead, impaled by Sephiroth's sword, unmistakable to Cloud. It's so creepy, and it sets up the cat and mouse game of the party trying to keep up with and track down Sephiroth, thinking Sephiroth stole Jenova from Shinra. In the Remake, the sheer tension and dread are gone. Instead, Sephiroth just sort of spouts lines at you and then you follow the goo. We then find the president hanging off the building. How did he get there? Did the Whispers push him out the window similar to that implied of Wedge. But then Sephiroth shows up and kills him. That said, even this still is okay. There are some changes, but the same overall story beat. We have been seeing Sephiroth a lot already, so, overall, this change is not a big deal to me, it is just an instance where I really preferred the original scenes. I also miss Rufus' speech to the party about how he is going to take over Shinra and rule differently than his father. In the Remake, he kind of just shows up and fights you, but you don't learn much about his motivations or what makes him tick. In the OG, your first encounter with Rufus makes an impression that this guy is really going to be trouble for you. On the other hand, I though it was an interesting touch that the robed, tattooed, guys from the slums were carrying Jenova. In the OG, it is stated it wasn't Sephiroth they were chasing the whole time, he was in the crater, but rather it was Jenova. My memory is a little fuzzy, but she basically escaped Shinra HQ herself but disquised as Sephiroth, if I remember correctly. I just thought the concept of using the robed guys instead was interesting, and gives them extra reasons to be heading toward the crater.
Then Ch. 18 happened. I don't know what to think. I still like the game. I am not going to rage about how they destroyed a classic, defiled my childhood, etc. But I am irked a bit. Time travel stuff, it's hard to pull off, and SE's penchant for hard to follow stories (especially Nomura a la Kingdom Hearts), doesn't give me a ton of hope. And, honestly, it's just not what I wanted from the remake. Expand on stuff, tell some different stories, even change how some events play out. I'm fine with that. But having a future Sephiroth somehow use the lifestream to travel back in time to change what happened in the original game? Things just got weird. I also don't really appreciate meta storytelling like this. All the symbolism of the Whispers being the fans of the OG that don't want stuff to change? I'm not a fan. I guess I just do not prefer a fantasy story, unless it is written as satire or as a comedy, to wink at the audience. It's like the line in the Last Jedi where Kylo says to burn the past, basically making a comment about the fans, saying they need to let go of the originals and embrace the new (I disliked that line, but I actually enjoyed that movie overall - I am just referencing it here to make the comparison). Tell the story within the context and world it exists in, don't add subtext and commentary that is meant to talk to the audience about what they want from the story.
Putting the meta stuff aside, I am worried about what the Whispers might mean, or the lack of Whispers now that Cloud and crew destroyed them. As I understand it, they were trying to prevent the normal course of events from being altered. So now SE has the leeway to do whatever they want with the next games. They do not even have to follow closely to the overall plot of the original anymore. The story can go completely off the rails. Maybe it will still follow the same general plot. Sephy likely just wants to alter events enough so he wins this time, right? So, Sephy's plan would still be that he (Jenova) will travel from Midgar to the crater, the reunion will still happen, he will still use Cloud to get the black materia for him, and he will still summon meteor so he can create a huge wound in the planet so he can absorb all the energy and become one with the planet. So what changes? Well, killing Aerith last time (or maybe too late) was what beat him in the end. So, will he not kill her this time? Or, now that the Whispers can't get in the way, will he keep trying to kill her before she can summon holy? And all the stakes were diminished - Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse are all presumably okay, Sector 7 is rebuilding with smiles on their faces, etc. And what was Sephiroth's line about 7 seconds about?
Also, did they just walk into a alternate timeline/universe? Biggs seemed pretty dead, but now he is okay? Zack survived his battle with the Shinra troops? Definitely seems like an alternate timeline. Unless they retroactively changed events, but then Cloud wouldn't be walking around with Zack's sword and still not having his memories. So, yeah, it seems like an alternative timeline. So, are there two Clouds, or two of the rest of the party for that matter? And it begs the question of how much of this world is different. The design of stamp on the bag that flew by Zack looked very different than the design we saw all throughout the game. So, are the 5 characters that went through to the alternative timeline, Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII, the only real knowns, being that they are essentially their characters from the original timeline thrust into a different one, and there are going to be tons of little changes to the world? This just all seems out of left field and doesn't even have any basis in the original story. How does being within the lifestream allow Sephy to travel through time? It seems to only serve as an in-story reason for them to make something totally different in the next games, but while getting to use these extremely popular characters. Is that why this game is called simply FFVII Remake - instead of adding a Part 1? This is the somewhat faithful Remake of the Midgar area, and the next game will be titled "FFVII Time Stamp 358/2 Redux" and just do whatever it wants?
IDK, I am just still processing everything.
It's funny. When I first watched those reviews saying the ending would be controversial, I assumed it would be something fairly innocuous, like a fight with Sephiroth on the highway before you leave Midgar. I though it would be something like that where original fans wouldn't necessarily like it because it is too soon for something like that to happen in the story and would be too over the top. But I was fine with something like a fight with Sephiroth. Since this is a stand alone game, it would be a nice cap and leave you wanting more Sephiroth in the next one. It turns out I was almost right, but then we went in a portal and fought some heartless. I am hoping I can find a way to come around to it after some more time. I really enjoyed playing through the game. I want to enjoy the story in the next game. I am just scratching my head as to why they thought this was the best direction to go with their most popular property.
Of course, the main difference was that the Whispers kept showing up. When they would appear, I wasn't sure what to think of them. I originally thought they were some kind of manifestation of Sephiroth's will from the lifestream, but obviously I found out at the end of the game that was completely wrong. I also was a little perplexed when we saw glimpses of future events, such as Sephy clones walking to the crater, Aerith praying and the holy materia, etc. These were shown as being triggered in a similar way as Cloud's messed up memories, so of course I was thinking, "how is he seeing stuff that hasn't happened yet?" However, I simply concluded that maybe the writers decided to add some foreshadowing for fans, and maybe that Cloud's Jenova cells were trying to impress upon him what to do - e.g., participate in the reunion and don't let this ancient girl get in our way. I was even okay with Wedge surviving the plate falling (although the Whispers obviously weren't doing their job there). I really liked his character, and one of the three surviving was fine with me. Biggs' and Jesse's deaths were both really impactful.
I started to get a little worried around when we witnessed Sephiroth carrying Jenova away in Ch. 17, and leaving a trail of goo. In the original, we have this great scene where the party is captured, and Cloud wakes up to find his cell open, only for them to find trails of blood and dead bodies everywhere until you finally make your way up to find the president dead, impaled by Sephiroth's sword, unmistakable to Cloud. It's so creepy, and it sets up the cat and mouse game of the party trying to keep up with and track down Sephiroth, thinking Sephiroth stole Jenova from Shinra. In the Remake, the sheer tension and dread are gone. Instead, Sephiroth just sort of spouts lines at you and then you follow the goo. We then find the president hanging off the building. How did he get there? Did the Whispers push him out the window similar to that implied of Wedge. But then Sephiroth shows up and kills him. That said, even this still is okay. There are some changes, but the same overall story beat. We have been seeing Sephiroth a lot already, so, overall, this change is not a big deal to me, it is just an instance where I really preferred the original scenes. I also miss Rufus' speech to the party about how he is going to take over Shinra and rule differently than his father. In the Remake, he kind of just shows up and fights you, but you don't learn much about his motivations or what makes him tick. In the OG, your first encounter with Rufus makes an impression that this guy is really going to be trouble for you. On the other hand, I though it was an interesting touch that the robed, tattooed, guys from the slums were carrying Jenova. In the OG, it is stated it wasn't Sephiroth they were chasing the whole time, he was in the crater, but rather it was Jenova. My memory is a little fuzzy, but she basically escaped Shinra HQ herself but disquised as Sephiroth, if I remember correctly. I just thought the concept of using the robed guys instead was interesting, and gives them extra reasons to be heading toward the crater.
Then Ch. 18 happened. I don't know what to think. I still like the game. I am not going to rage about how they destroyed a classic, defiled my childhood, etc. But I am irked a bit. Time travel stuff, it's hard to pull off, and SE's penchant for hard to follow stories (especially Nomura a la Kingdom Hearts), doesn't give me a ton of hope. And, honestly, it's just not what I wanted from the remake. Expand on stuff, tell some different stories, even change how some events play out. I'm fine with that. But having a future Sephiroth somehow use the lifestream to travel back in time to change what happened in the original game? Things just got weird. I also don't really appreciate meta storytelling like this. All the symbolism of the Whispers being the fans of the OG that don't want stuff to change? I'm not a fan. I guess I just do not prefer a fantasy story, unless it is written as satire or as a comedy, to wink at the audience. It's like the line in the Last Jedi where Kylo says to burn the past, basically making a comment about the fans, saying they need to let go of the originals and embrace the new (I disliked that line, but I actually enjoyed that movie overall - I am just referencing it here to make the comparison). Tell the story within the context and world it exists in, don't add subtext and commentary that is meant to talk to the audience about what they want from the story.
Putting the meta stuff aside, I am worried about what the Whispers might mean, or the lack of Whispers now that Cloud and crew destroyed them. As I understand it, they were trying to prevent the normal course of events from being altered. So now SE has the leeway to do whatever they want with the next games. They do not even have to follow closely to the overall plot of the original anymore. The story can go completely off the rails. Maybe it will still follow the same general plot. Sephy likely just wants to alter events enough so he wins this time, right? So, Sephy's plan would still be that he (Jenova) will travel from Midgar to the crater, the reunion will still happen, he will still use Cloud to get the black materia for him, and he will still summon meteor so he can create a huge wound in the planet so he can absorb all the energy and become one with the planet. So what changes? Well, killing Aerith last time (or maybe too late) was what beat him in the end. So, will he not kill her this time? Or, now that the Whispers can't get in the way, will he keep trying to kill her before she can summon holy? And all the stakes were diminished - Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse are all presumably okay, Sector 7 is rebuilding with smiles on their faces, etc. And what was Sephiroth's line about 7 seconds about?
Also, did they just walk into a alternate timeline/universe? Biggs seemed pretty dead, but now he is okay? Zack survived his battle with the Shinra troops? Definitely seems like an alternate timeline. Unless they retroactively changed events, but then Cloud wouldn't be walking around with Zack's sword and still not having his memories. So, yeah, it seems like an alternative timeline. So, are there two Clouds, or two of the rest of the party for that matter? And it begs the question of how much of this world is different. The design of stamp on the bag that flew by Zack looked very different than the design we saw all throughout the game. So, are the 5 characters that went through to the alternative timeline, Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII, the only real knowns, being that they are essentially their characters from the original timeline thrust into a different one, and there are going to be tons of little changes to the world? This just all seems out of left field and doesn't even have any basis in the original story. How does being within the lifestream allow Sephy to travel through time? It seems to only serve as an in-story reason for them to make something totally different in the next games, but while getting to use these extremely popular characters. Is that why this game is called simply FFVII Remake - instead of adding a Part 1? This is the somewhat faithful Remake of the Midgar area, and the next game will be titled "FFVII Time Stamp 358/2 Redux" and just do whatever it wants?
IDK, I am just still processing everything.
It's funny. When I first watched those reviews saying the ending would be controversial, I assumed it would be something fairly innocuous, like a fight with Sephiroth on the highway before you leave Midgar. I though it would be something like that where original fans wouldn't necessarily like it because it is too soon for something like that to happen in the story and would be too over the top. But I was fine with something like a fight with Sephiroth. Since this is a stand alone game, it would be a nice cap and leave you wanting more Sephiroth in the next one. It turns out I was almost right, but then we went in a portal and fought some heartless. I am hoping I can find a way to come around to it after some more time. I really enjoyed playing through the game. I want to enjoy the story in the next game. I am just scratching my head as to why they thought this was the best direction to go with their most popular property.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I agree with you, Knuxson.
My single biggest fear is that Aerith will be a knowing, willing human sacifice in this Remake. That would be a complete betrayal of OG Aerith. (Or maybe we will have to start calling them Aeris and Aerith). But having given it some thought, I don't think that's going to happen, for reasons I explained elsewhere.
I also now think that the scene with Zack at the end is nothing more than a 'hey, it could have happened this way... but it didn't' nod to the Zack fans designed to tug at our heart-strings. Like I've said before, this Remake has a tendency to indulge in sentimentalism.
My single biggest fear is that Aerith will be a knowing, willing human sacifice in this Remake. That would be a complete betrayal of OG Aerith. (Or maybe we will have to start calling them Aeris and Aerith). But having given it some thought, I don't think that's going to happen, for reasons I explained elsewhere.
I also now think that the scene with Zack at the end is nothing more than a 'hey, it could have happened this way... but it didn't' nod to the Zack fans designed to tug at our heart-strings. Like I've said before, this Remake has a tendency to indulge in sentimentalism.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
Thanks, Licorice. Yeah, maybe, and hopefully, I am reading too much into that and the characters are not in an alternate timeline. Maybe the Whispers and everything are really just a way to reinforce in the fans not to expect things to go exactly the same way. And maybe Sephiroth's weird monologues just go hand in hand with that. Maybe getting rid of the Whispers in this game doesn't impact the next game from a story perspective, other than that some things will be different simply due to the nature of it being a remake. Maybe the Barrett death fakeout was their way of saying "we could have killed Barrett, but we didn't, but now the gloves are coming off on things we might change." Or it really all is as bad as my initial impressions. I am still not sure what to think or how to feel.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I think they want to have some fun with this Remake/Reimagining/Rewind whatever you want to call it, and they want us to have some fun with it too. The OG was kinda silly in a lot of places, even when it was also deeply profound.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I think its pretty much a given that future remake parts will diverge from the OG far more than this part did. The whispers would not make any sense as a plot device I'd they didn't. There were already so many parts in this game where the plot would have diverged heavily if not for them. Cloud wouldn't have rejoined Avalanche, Reno would be dead, and the plate wouldn't have fallen. With them seemingly destroyed, there's no telling what might change next time. I think a lot of familiar beats will still be there (Cloud rides a dolphin or I riot) but they may be changed, and there will surely be many all new events too.
Magos-Dominus
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Magos
Alright, so:
Hi guys! New here.
That said, after a week of admittedly overblown apoplectic fury about what looked to be a time travel plot, in part due to how incredibly hard to parse the ending sequence actually is on top of Sephiroth's usual cryptic nonsense, I've come to the conclusion that very little has actually changed, plot setup wise, beyond two characters: Aerith and Sephiroth.
So, first off: Zack's not alive. He's dead. If he doesn't die, the entire plot, broad strokes and all, falls apart around him based solely on the fact that he knows Cloud's memory is incorrect and can explain the truth. "But Magos," you might ask, "what if he's just off screen doing a side adventure until Meteor gets summoned and he's not longer a danger to the plot?" Possible. However, the only real thematic or narrative contribution I can see that making to the characters or the plot would occur is Aerith escapes the Plot Reaper as well. Which is not happening. We can imagine ourselves in circles about infinite possibilities and unknowns but it comes down to one fact about this story we all love:
Final Fantasy VII is a story about experiencing, processing, and moving past grief. And Aerith's death is the moment of grief the game thematically hinges around. It is too important to remove.
In addition to that, FFVII is a deeply, deeply character driven piece. There isn't a single action taken by the party or the villain that isn't consistent with their internal motivations, and apart from Aerith and Sephiroth, there is no change to the people that each of them are following this ending, and there's very little actually changed about Aerith and Sephiroth as characters, only the information they have available to them.
So, first off: Sephiroth. Do I think him having the old script in hand and now free of the shackles of fate means he's gonna take this plot off the rails in some twelve-dimensional chess scheme? Absolutely not, because it doesn't really change anything in the macro sense. Even in the OG, Sephiroth was the only character with complete information about what was going on, and relied on that and his ability to manipulate Cloud via Jenova Cells to deliver the black materia to him and instigate his plan to escape his lot in life. The other thing to note about him is that he's both incredibly proud and a complete douchebag, certain in his position as the sole conductor of the events on his way to summoning Meteor. To be honest, I only see him getting more up his own ass now that he has the script. Not only are the broad strokes gonna play out in much the same manner as the OG, with concessions to adapting it to its current form, our boy in black is gonna spend his time rubbing the party's face in it, because the North Crater is already total, uncontested victory for him in the OG. He doesn't NEED to do anything.
Which brings us to our only real wildcard, Aerith Gainsborough, who at the end of Remake is now in the same position, roughly, that she was at the end of the Temple of the Ancients in the OG, her character development accelerated by visions provided by the planet via TIME GHOSTS and, importantly, her vision of the last stand of Zack Fair. Though expanded on in the Compilation, its clear even in the OG that Aerith is not as over her teenage love-interest as she'd like to be, and makes a point of that to Cloud in their date at the Gold Saucer, which is as much an excuse to talk to him alone as it is anything else, talking about her attraction in terms of how much Cloud reminds her of Zack, acknowledging his delicate mental state, and effectively asking to start over, as treating him as a replacement goldfish for Zack isn't fair (you may laugh) to either of them. Its a big moment for her as a character. Despite being, as the rest of the cast, a good person, she's also headstrong and inconsiderate of other people's feelings, exemplified best by her treatment of Barret's grief at the Gold Saucer and the fact that she aggressively flirts with Cloud even when Tifa, who she's shown to get on with like a tire fire, is in the room despite the fact that it makes her super uncomfortable and does not give a single shit in the process.
So, the considerate, patient, thoughtful Aerith Cloud speaks with on the gondola and in a vision after the Temple of the Ancients, who she developed into after learning more knowledge of the Cetra and what it means to be one at Cosmo Canyon and the Temple, and moving on from the 'normal' girl she wanted to be by making peace with her lingering grief over Zack by realizing Cloud's persona as fake and realizing she's been chasing a ghost, is the character that steps to the fore as the only obstacle to Sephiroth's goal of summoning Meteor. Armed with the White materia, and now the self-knowledge and wisdom needed to commune with the planet to use it, kind, headstrong, independent Aerith leaves the party and Cloud to finish the job to spare them from the danger to come.
And it's that headstrong, independent, caring nature that gets her killed.
At the end of the day, Aerith is still five-foot-nothing and a hundred pounds soaking wet with no real combat training against a man who is heralded as the greatest warrior in the entire world, who out of a desire to protect her friends, chooses to face alone. We've seen the only way that one ends.
It's obvious from her conduct in her Chapter 14 scene where she tells Cloud not to fall in love with her, and the glimpses of the OG that we experience through visions via Cloud, that Aerith has at least a partial copy of the script in her head, and her experiences in the last few chapters of the game have accelerated her on her arc to being the person who went to the Forgotten Capital to save the planet and her friends. As far as the Zack vision goes, I've stated my opinion as to why him living isn't in the cards, the presence of the time-ghosts in the flashback for continuity's sake, an excuse to show the player this scene happening in the past despite it being totally out of left field for this point in the plot. More than that though, its Aerith, not anyone else is aware of Zack Fair's final stand as we see it, knowledge that will advance her coming to terms with that and move past the lingering grief over the loss loved one she got no closure for. At no point in the course of FFVIIR do we witness anything other than information pass through time, and even then, only through the Lifestream and those who can commune with it: the TIME GHOSTS, Aerith, and Sephiroth.
Which leaves us in the exact same situation that we were in the first half of the OG. Sephiroth has all the cards, Aerith is the only person alive who can meaningfully oppose him. "But Magos," you may ask again, "if he has the script, wouldn't he just see where his failings and mistakes were and not make those again?" No. He won't. Why? Because his entire motivation through the game is protecting his pride and sense of superiority. His start of darkness begins in Nibelheim, the greatest warrior in the world, having won the war and outlived his usefullness, consigned to running cleanup operations at some broke down reactor in the middle of nowhere. A glorified janitor. That is, until he finds Gast's research, and he's not longer an obsolete tool, special. He spends the entire game assuming new, ever more grandiose titles for himself to avoid dealing with the grief of losing his position of importance until he literally tries to deify himself. "What do I have to be sad about? I'm the Chosen One." He is unwilling and unable to grow as a person. Even knowing the specific missteps he makes, his arrogance and habit of underestimating those he perceives as weaker than him remain. Now that he's manipulated our heroes into doing his dirt work and killing the TIME GHOSTS for him, his ego's likely even more inflated than it was in the OG, and it will lead him to making similar mistakes in the following entries.
But Aerith has some knowledge of these events as well, and will likely be doing her part to play the twelve-dimensional chess game she and Sephiroth now find themselves playing against each other, though the timetable has moved up a bit from when they did so in the OG. She's still the only one Sephiroth has to kill to make the plan go off without a hitch, and is still the kind of person to make a dangerous, risky play to protect her friends. It's not a matter of if, its a matter of when and how, the others left with a modified set of problems to deal with in the same way they're OG counterparts would have, and will make the same mistakes in the process. They all will.
They might have escaped the binds of predestination but none of them can escape the people they are.
I apologize for the rambling, run-on sentences. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Hi guys! New here.
That said, after a week of admittedly overblown apoplectic fury about what looked to be a time travel plot, in part due to how incredibly hard to parse the ending sequence actually is on top of Sephiroth's usual cryptic nonsense, I've come to the conclusion that very little has actually changed, plot setup wise, beyond two characters: Aerith and Sephiroth.
So, first off: Zack's not alive. He's dead. If he doesn't die, the entire plot, broad strokes and all, falls apart around him based solely on the fact that he knows Cloud's memory is incorrect and can explain the truth. "But Magos," you might ask, "what if he's just off screen doing a side adventure until Meteor gets summoned and he's not longer a danger to the plot?" Possible. However, the only real thematic or narrative contribution I can see that making to the characters or the plot would occur is Aerith escapes the Plot Reaper as well. Which is not happening. We can imagine ourselves in circles about infinite possibilities and unknowns but it comes down to one fact about this story we all love:
Final Fantasy VII is a story about experiencing, processing, and moving past grief. And Aerith's death is the moment of grief the game thematically hinges around. It is too important to remove.
In addition to that, FFVII is a deeply, deeply character driven piece. There isn't a single action taken by the party or the villain that isn't consistent with their internal motivations, and apart from Aerith and Sephiroth, there is no change to the people that each of them are following this ending, and there's very little actually changed about Aerith and Sephiroth as characters, only the information they have available to them.
So, first off: Sephiroth. Do I think him having the old script in hand and now free of the shackles of fate means he's gonna take this plot off the rails in some twelve-dimensional chess scheme? Absolutely not, because it doesn't really change anything in the macro sense. Even in the OG, Sephiroth was the only character with complete information about what was going on, and relied on that and his ability to manipulate Cloud via Jenova Cells to deliver the black materia to him and instigate his plan to escape his lot in life. The other thing to note about him is that he's both incredibly proud and a complete douchebag, certain in his position as the sole conductor of the events on his way to summoning Meteor. To be honest, I only see him getting more up his own ass now that he has the script. Not only are the broad strokes gonna play out in much the same manner as the OG, with concessions to adapting it to its current form, our boy in black is gonna spend his time rubbing the party's face in it, because the North Crater is already total, uncontested victory for him in the OG. He doesn't NEED to do anything.
Which brings us to our only real wildcard, Aerith Gainsborough, who at the end of Remake is now in the same position, roughly, that she was at the end of the Temple of the Ancients in the OG, her character development accelerated by visions provided by the planet via TIME GHOSTS and, importantly, her vision of the last stand of Zack Fair. Though expanded on in the Compilation, its clear even in the OG that Aerith is not as over her teenage love-interest as she'd like to be, and makes a point of that to Cloud in their date at the Gold Saucer, which is as much an excuse to talk to him alone as it is anything else, talking about her attraction in terms of how much Cloud reminds her of Zack, acknowledging his delicate mental state, and effectively asking to start over, as treating him as a replacement goldfish for Zack isn't fair (you may laugh) to either of them. Its a big moment for her as a character. Despite being, as the rest of the cast, a good person, she's also headstrong and inconsiderate of other people's feelings, exemplified best by her treatment of Barret's grief at the Gold Saucer and the fact that she aggressively flirts with Cloud even when Tifa, who she's shown to get on with like a tire fire, is in the room despite the fact that it makes her super uncomfortable and does not give a single shit in the process.
So, the considerate, patient, thoughtful Aerith Cloud speaks with on the gondola and in a vision after the Temple of the Ancients, who she developed into after learning more knowledge of the Cetra and what it means to be one at Cosmo Canyon and the Temple, and moving on from the 'normal' girl she wanted to be by making peace with her lingering grief over Zack by realizing Cloud's persona as fake and realizing she's been chasing a ghost, is the character that steps to the fore as the only obstacle to Sephiroth's goal of summoning Meteor. Armed with the White materia, and now the self-knowledge and wisdom needed to commune with the planet to use it, kind, headstrong, independent Aerith leaves the party and Cloud to finish the job to spare them from the danger to come.
And it's that headstrong, independent, caring nature that gets her killed.
At the end of the day, Aerith is still five-foot-nothing and a hundred pounds soaking wet with no real combat training against a man who is heralded as the greatest warrior in the entire world, who out of a desire to protect her friends, chooses to face alone. We've seen the only way that one ends.
It's obvious from her conduct in her Chapter 14 scene where she tells Cloud not to fall in love with her, and the glimpses of the OG that we experience through visions via Cloud, that Aerith has at least a partial copy of the script in her head, and her experiences in the last few chapters of the game have accelerated her on her arc to being the person who went to the Forgotten Capital to save the planet and her friends. As far as the Zack vision goes, I've stated my opinion as to why him living isn't in the cards, the presence of the time-ghosts in the flashback for continuity's sake, an excuse to show the player this scene happening in the past despite it being totally out of left field for this point in the plot. More than that though, its Aerith, not anyone else is aware of Zack Fair's final stand as we see it, knowledge that will advance her coming to terms with that and move past the lingering grief over the loss loved one she got no closure for. At no point in the course of FFVIIR do we witness anything other than information pass through time, and even then, only through the Lifestream and those who can commune with it: the TIME GHOSTS, Aerith, and Sephiroth.
Which leaves us in the exact same situation that we were in the first half of the OG. Sephiroth has all the cards, Aerith is the only person alive who can meaningfully oppose him. "But Magos," you may ask again, "if he has the script, wouldn't he just see where his failings and mistakes were and not make those again?" No. He won't. Why? Because his entire motivation through the game is protecting his pride and sense of superiority. His start of darkness begins in Nibelheim, the greatest warrior in the world, having won the war and outlived his usefullness, consigned to running cleanup operations at some broke down reactor in the middle of nowhere. A glorified janitor. That is, until he finds Gast's research, and he's not longer an obsolete tool, special. He spends the entire game assuming new, ever more grandiose titles for himself to avoid dealing with the grief of losing his position of importance until he literally tries to deify himself. "What do I have to be sad about? I'm the Chosen One." He is unwilling and unable to grow as a person. Even knowing the specific missteps he makes, his arrogance and habit of underestimating those he perceives as weaker than him remain. Now that he's manipulated our heroes into doing his dirt work and killing the TIME GHOSTS for him, his ego's likely even more inflated than it was in the OG, and it will lead him to making similar mistakes in the following entries.
But Aerith has some knowledge of these events as well, and will likely be doing her part to play the twelve-dimensional chess game she and Sephiroth now find themselves playing against each other, though the timetable has moved up a bit from when they did so in the OG. She's still the only one Sephiroth has to kill to make the plan go off without a hitch, and is still the kind of person to make a dangerous, risky play to protect her friends. It's not a matter of if, its a matter of when and how, the others left with a modified set of problems to deal with in the same way they're OG counterparts would have, and will make the same mistakes in the process. They all will.
They might have escaped the binds of predestination but none of them can escape the people they are.
I apologize for the rambling, run-on sentences. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Your TedTalk was very interesting. Thank you for giving it.
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
I also found it quite interesting, though I personally think that even Aerith and Sephiroth don’t have even the full/partial script, but more like a waterlogged tapestry that’s difficult to make up in regards to future knowledge.
Also I am not sure I would describe Aerith and Tifa as getting along “like a tire fire” in the OG. While the Remake definitely adds more additional genuine moments of the two’s friendship, they still had a sincere friendship even in the OG.
Also I am not sure I would describe Aerith and Tifa as getting along “like a tire fire” in the OG. While the Remake definitely adds more additional genuine moments of the two’s friendship, they still had a sincere friendship even in the OG.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Sephiroth, by the time of the arrival at the North Crater has already failed to prevent Aerith from starting the Holy summoning. Beyond. after death Aerith is able to get the Lifestream to intervene on to stop Meteor. And after his identity crisis at the temple, Cloud gets his act together and bests Sephiroth. Sephiroth's killing of Aerith was a failure, three times over and he knows it.
Sephiroth cares enough to at least try to alter fate in this game, and has enough self awareness to see that his original fate was less then ideal. Why would he stop trying full stop in the next?