SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Doesn't getting along like a tyre fire mean the same thing as getting along like a house on fire? That they get along really well?

 

[Kain424]

I don't really think Sephiroth has total knowledge of future events so much as he has knowledge of the functions of various mechanics of the Planet. He knows about the Weapons, the Lifestream, and the Whispers. And he uses the party to eliminate two of those over the course of the game so he can manifest himself as a deity through the remaining one.

 

[Via Purifico]

But why would Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo fight on behalf of the planet's future?

"My brothers and sisters who share mother's cells will all assemble, and together we'll take revenge on the planet!"-Kadaj, Advent Children

Why would that guy, be the choice for the planet to use to defend it's proper future, and why would he go along with it?

Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo are avatars of Jenova and Sephiroth. Specifically, remnants created from Sephiroth's will/consciousness. They represent his ego and intentions, so why would they be subject to the planet, let alone assist it?

The ambiguous 3 Arbiters of Fate could match those 3 dudes, but it just makes no sense thematically or contextually.

Maybe because even though they're antagonists in their own time, the eventual result is the planet is cured of geostigma and we're given an ambiguous end to Sephiroth? Perhaps the planet decided they were the strongest option to fight Cloud and everyone.

 

[Eerie]

OK so it looks like Max Dood got a tip and the Whisperers are indeed Kadaj, Loz and Yazzo.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Magos-Dominus
That was a very enjoyable read! I especially found this poignant:

"They might have escaped the binds of predestination but none of them can escape the people they are."

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a comment like this from Nomura or Nojima down the road.

Sephiroth, by the time of the arrival at the North Crater has already failed to prevent Aerith from starting the Holy summoning. Beyond. after death Aerith is able to get the Lifestream to intervene on to stop Meteor. And after his identity crisis at the temple, Cloud gets his act together and bests Sephiroth. Sephiroth's killing of Aerith was a failure, three times over and he knows it.

Sephiroth cares enough to at least try to alter fate in this game, and has enough self awareness to see that his original fate was less then ideal. Why would he stop trying full stop in the next?

I mean, why would he waste even a second's opportunity in "Advent Children" to telekinetically/magically bind Cloud in place and cut him in half, after already losing to him three times? His ongoing existence is literally anchored by his narcissism and compulsion to break Cloud. He can't give himself a win because he won't take it when he has the chance.

OK so it looks like Max Dood got a tip and the Whisperers are indeed Kadaj, Loz and Yazzo.

Well, assuming he's been given good info (and we've no reason to think otherwise at this point), that goes a long way towards verifying that Sephiroth transferred at least his knowledge through time upon being defeated in "Advent Children."

 

[Eerie]

I agree, but it's good that we can put this to rest haha!

 

[Roger]

@Magos-Dominus
That was a very enjoyable read! I especially found this poignant:

"They might have escaped the binds of predestination but none of them can escape the people they are."

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a comment like this from Nomura or Nojima down the road.


I mean, why would he waste even a second's opportunity in "Advent Children" to telekinetically/magically bind Cloud in place and cut him in half, after already losing to him three times? His ongoing existence is literally anchored by his narcissism and compulsion to break Cloud. He can't give himself a win because he won't take it when he has the chance.



Well, assuming he's been given good info (and we've no reason to think otherwise at this point), that goes a long way towards verifying that Sephiroth transferred at least his knowledge through time upon being defeated in "Advent Children."

His boner for Cloud aside, he was intelligent enough to perceive Aerith as a threat and take steps to eliminate her in the original game. Either he's too full of himself to bother now, or he's still intent on preventing the use of the White Materia, taking what he knows of his original attempt into account. Either scenerio would butterfly away Aerith's death at the Forgotten City, the version where Sephiroth was exactly late enough.

 

[Odysseus]

I keep having this mental image of the party walking down some grassy path, when suddenly Sephiroth leaps out from a nearby Bush and skewers Aerith right then and there, then scampers off to the hills. They'd never see it coming.

 

[Roger]

I keep having this mental image of the party walking down some grassy path, when suddenly Sephiroth leaps out from a nearby Bush and skewers Aerith right then and there, then scampers off to the hills. They'd never see it coming.

That's the Sephiroth I'm hoping for. "She summons Holy by the time Cloud arrives at the Forgotten City, no problem, I'll kill her in front of Cloud the moment they exit the citadel and make the Black Materia. Bugenhagen was planning some mojo at the Forgotten City afterwards, he can die a little earlier too. Mideel fished Cloud out of lifestream, I'll have one of my boys go over there and pull a Nibelheim. The Mako Cannon destroys my energy dome, I'll cut that thing to ribbons for real."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Omg.... Yeah. This is so a fucking time loop.

Their knowledge, or memories are being tapped into. So it appears that knowledge has been regained or pre-conceived. However, Sephiroth doesn't necessarily need to travel through time or have pre-cognition if time has been restarted and he remembers things.

Those fragments or shades of his remnants really leads me to believes the Whisper Harbinger was literally, a "harbinger" or "announcement" of the end of the world, or rather.. The perceived end of the world, through Sephiroth's perspective. Which is.. The failure of Holy and how the planet is destined for destruction.

 

[Odysseus]

So what you're saying is that Sephiroth looked at the leaks

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth is more than likely a participant in this literal reboot of time decided by the planet. However, unlike everyone else, he's privy or aware of the nature of the situation, on some level.

Arbiters are those meant to judge or render a decision in a conflict between two sides. They weigh the evidence and come to a conclusion.

Theses arbiters wish for time to remain on a set path or "destiny" so that they may witness it from all ends. The far past (Zack's last stand) to the ultimate conclusion. Why? That's the question.

Now that the Arbiters have metaphorically been thrown out of the courtroom, what decision or result that'll be reached is now in the hands of the plaintiff and defendants.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think "time loop" is the wrong terminology here, as it implies a retreading of the same universal line of time -- like doing a loop around the block to walk back down the same street.

We know from what Nomura has told us that this is a separate universe, not an overwrite of the original. That in mind, it seems more accurate to call this a time split or branching. Sephiroth's knowledge (consciousness?) must have went back in time, splintering a separate universal line of time off from the original. (Perhaps Aerith then sent her own memories in pursuit.)

To return to the street analogy, this is less a loop around the block to walk back down the same street; more taking a side street to begin walking down a road that runs parallel and even shares a lot of the same buildings.

 

[Odysseus]

... I think I need map quest.

Is it possible that there's zero time stuff involved at all and that Sephiroth just knows what's going to happen because he learned the details of the fate the whispers were protecting? Clearly the planet had something specific in mind, so if sephiroth learned of that after failing to merge with the life stream, he could work to counteract it.

 

[Dark and Divine]

... I think I need map quest.

Is it possible that there's zero time stuff involved at all and that Sephiroth just knows what's going to happen because he learned the details of the fate the whispers were protecting? Clearly the planet had something specific in mind, so if sephiroth learned of that after failing to merge with the life stream, he could work to counteract it.

Well, the Edge of Creation might itself be a singularity that exists outside of time, encapsulating the memories since the beggining of the Planet until its eventual destruction. Since Sephiroth now has access to it, he could have seen what the future had in store for him.

This has been theorized by both @The Twilight Mexican and @Makoeyes987 about 40-60 pages ago

I'll see if I can find those exact posts about it.

Edit: Found them

Spoiler: Tres' Post

Were we ever disagreeing then? That's what I've been talking about all along. XD

Glad to see that we are on the same page after all. Care to guess as to any of the who, what, when, where, and why of it?

I'm still of the suspicion it was probably Sephiroth himself in AC. If a power to transcend time is within the scope of a Lifestream -- and we know that it is (see: FFIX and tracing souls' memories to Crystal World ... perhaps "the edge of creation" Seph spoke of) -- then surely a being who commanded much of the Lifestream at the moment of his final defeat could have performed the relatively simple task of sending himself a vision at another place in time?

Spoiler: Mako's Post

...I just thought of something.

When Cloud tries to land the finishing blow on Sephiroth, he instead gets sucked up and surrounded by a swarm of Arbiters of Fate.

What then proceeds is a very clear homage to FFVII's ending when Cloud's spirit dove back into the planet's core to have one last spiritual duel against Sephiroth where he emerged victorious.

However, Cloud wasn't a fully himself this time around. In fact, when he emerged to face Sephiroth his head started pounding and was having a fit. Sephiroth however calms him down and says calmly, "Careful now. That which lies ahead, does not yet exist."

...Is Sephiroth referring to their final duel? Was Cloud somehow having deja vu for an event that hadn't happened, thereby causing his mind to split due to the conflicting memory?

Furthermore, Sephiroth explains something very interesting, which I think is quite meaningful. He looks up at a bright, nebula in space and says, "Our world will become a part of it... One day. But I, will not end. Nor will I have you end."

Cloud asks, "This is?"

And Sephiroth answers, "The edge of creation."

At first it seemed ambiguous and completely without any context but.... It got me thinking. When people die, their spirit energy leaves their body, and their souls go back to the Lifestream within the planet. When planet's die, their spirit energy leaves their dying physical husk, and travels the sea of stars to be reborn and start anew, via Omega.

So where does that planetary aggregate of life go?

In FFVII, all life inevitably returns to it's source. It's all cyclical. And the life of entire planets, has to return to their source. Which I believe is.... The Edge of Creation. The name certainly sounds indicative of such a source. In fact, the nebula Sephiroth looks up to, looks like more than just an ordinary Nebula. It looks like a cosmic, shining crystalline orb, surround by stars and energy.

...It reminds me of another source of universal creation that all life inevitably returns to upon death. A source that gives birth to worlds and receives the souls of worlds that inevitably perish.

I think Sephiroth has somehow become aware of this planetary fate, and is now wishing to avoid it, and subvert it. Cloud somehow got pulled into the very beginning of Gaia's the Planet's "destiny" where it was born from the Edge of Creation, and met Sephiroth there, who somehow was able to glimpse the source of all life. Something Sephiroth does not wish to be made apart of. Sephiroth has now become the One-Winged Angel of Terra.

I think this will be a very important plot development later on.

 

[youffie]

@Magos-Dominus, you have just managed to succeed in a very daunting task: getting me excited about Sephiroth again after god knows how many years. Indeed, while we’re still fuzzy on the details, him having expanded his knowledge to the future in some way puts him even closer to the supreme, omniscient, omnipotent godly being he thinks he was destined to be, so it will be even more satisfying to see him choke on his painfully human arrogance and pride once and for all.

Welcome and do stick around, I need all the golden shiny wires of hope I can get in these dark and challenging times!

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think "time loop" is the wrong terminology here, as it implies a retreading of the same universal line of time -- like doing a loop around the block to walk back down the same street.

We know from what Nomura has told us that this is a separate universe, not an overwrite of the original. That in mind, it seems more accurate to call this a time split or branching. Sephiroth's knowledge (consciousness?) must have went back in time, splintering a separate universal line of time off from the original. (Perhaps Aerith then sent her own memories in pursuit.)

To return to the street analogy, this is less a loop around the block to walk back down the same steeet; more taking a side street to begin walking down a road that runs parallel and even shares a lot of the same buildings.

Depending on how the mechanics of the time loop work, it could end up simply creating a separate parallel timeline that upon reaching it's end, reconciles with the original timeline and essentially work like a string that's looped around itself. Like a bow.

Sorta like how Donnie Darko had the tangent universe split off the primary one, until it inevitably reconciles itself and merges back with it.

It could be like you said though, if they're trying to just do their own separate thing as they said. But, the way it plays out makes this seem like a strange sorta deja vu; it feels like the fake out where one thinks its the future when it's really all that's went on before. The "vision" of the world before it ends in 7 seconds seems really deliberate. And the fact the arbiters seem to be purposeful watchers regarding how this supposed "fate" plays out seems very important.

 

[Knuxson]

... I think I need map quest.

Is it possible that there's zero time stuff involved at all and that Sephiroth just knows what's going to happen because he learned the details of the fate the whispers were protecting? Clearly the planet had something specific in mind, so if sephiroth learned of that after failing to merge with the life stream, he could work to counteract it.

I would prefer that to be the case, but we will just have to wait and see. I never really liked Sephiroth coming back for AC, and especially not his lines in AC about never going away. It diminishes what the party did in the OG. But, as a very fan servicey movie, I was fine with it because it gave Cloud some epic fight scenes at the end, and we got to see Sephiroth updated visually. So, the idea that this is sort of the AC Sephiroth that has come back doesn't sit well with me.

As I posted earlier, I just finished the game less than 12 hours ago. But after some time, and after reading some other thoughts here that we are probably not in an alternate timeline where Zack is alive, I feel a little relieved that we might still be sticking somewhat to the original plot. I hope that the Whispers in this first game were just there for the meta-commentary, and to provide a huge boss battle at the end. I was simply loving the remake up until the end, and was planning on playing all the chapters again on hard mode. But after the ending I was thinking maybe I wouldn't bother.

However, I think I am still going to play it, and I want to rewatch all the Sephy scenes to see if I can better parse out what he is doing and what his goals are. Sephiroth was so compelling and creepy in the original. This AC-like Sephiroth just doesn't land as well, especially since he has this fascination with Cloud. It's not totally unwarranted, as in the OG Cloud IS the one who killed him and he remembers that. But I liked that he was basically just using Cloud to get the black materia, and didn't really care about him otherwise. Sephiroth in the OG legitimately went mad and became this almost force of nature. I guess I just would prefer the Cloud/Sephiroth dynamic to not be a Shonen show.

 

[Magos-Dominus]

Thanks, @youffie. It took me a while to get to the stage where hope was a thing, after the fiasco that was KHIII and my utter lack of faith in Nomura at this point as a storyteller, given that his fingerprints are all over Chapter 18, and I was beside myself with fury that the big character arcs and plot beats that made the original and its characters so compelling might get thrown out with the wash in the name of timelines. Based on what we've seen, and the nature of the Whispers, and the fact that this is a re-telling of what is arguably the single most well-loved story in the medium, that the remake trilogy (probably a trilogy, at least) is going to play out in conversation with the original game, rather than a complete departure from the original telling. I think in a few interviews, and its a sentiment I can respect even if I don't entirely agree with the direction, the Devs express that they are trying to tackle telling a story where all of the important plot beats are known ahead of time to the audience, which they can play with and have characters comment on given that the knowledge of the plot beats is known to a few of them. The huge, over the top fight scene at the end with the Time Darkside feels more like an obligation to genre conventions than anything else. Its a FF game, so it needs a big, flashy, dramatic boss fight at the end, and the Midgar section of the game didn't have one, so here we are.

Before the whole time-meta-commentary thing became apparent, I legit thought is was gonna be Roche who was our final boss, and that he was gonna be a recurring enemy through the story that fought Cloud on occasion and served as a parallel to the selfish, bike-riding, ex-soldier persona Cloud has in this stretch of the plot, and a commentary on who he becomes if he doesn't move past it, and Roche's defeat at the end of the bike chase out of Midgar either in place or beside the Motor Ball being symbolic of him starting his development as a character. But, he's just a one-off monster-of-the-week villain for the fourth chapter, so, Alas.

Also, big agree with @Knuxson about Sephiroth acting like Cloud's jealous stalker ex-boyfriend in this one, like he has in basically all entries outside of the OG over the past two decades, that's kind of exhausting. On the other hand, I can see the reasoning, at least given my read of Sephiroth in the original game, given that he is, ultimately, a man without self-identity, which is ironic given his god-complex. His entire life, he's been a object used by others to further their agenda: Shin-Ra, Hojo, Jenova. Barely has any thoughts or opinions himself other than he's Special and Important, so him latching onto his animosity towards Cloud kinda makes sense, given that that personal antipathy is his only feeling or motivation that's uniquely HIS by the time of the OG. Him getting revenge on that punk-kid who killed him in the reactor was mostly gravy on top of his plans in the original, but if he's got the script and can see his personal interest in ruining him amping up, if only to massage his ego.

The irony in his parting line in AC, "I will never be a memory," is that the single, bitter memory of his defeat at the hands of some sixteen year old nobody, and again by the same just before his moment of total victory, is the only thing Sephiroth even IS as that point, beyond a quasi-self-aware extension of a space-faring parasite. It's the only thing that still makes him, him.

But this is me giving Nomura too much credit. Allow me to live in denial about the fact that I've likely put more thought into this than Nomura has.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This AC-like Sephiroth just doesn't land as well, especially since he has this fascination with Cloud. It's not totally unwarranted, as in the OG Cloud IS the one who killed him and he remembers that. But I liked that he was basically just using Cloud to get the black materia, and didn't really care about him otherwise.

That was never the case, though. Seph didn't need Cloud and co. to get the Black Materia for him (Cloud says as much himself). Seph had Cloud get it for him because it created yet another opportunity to torture Cloud, with the awarenese that he handed over the key to killing the world.

Even in the original game, Sephiroth's obsession with Cloud is his defining trait. He puts a foolproof plan to achieve godhood on delay so he can dick around with Cloud.

 

[Magos-Dominus]

Also, to further some commentary on the whole "Seven Seconds Until the End" and "Edge of Creation" lines spouted by our resident L'Oreal commercial looking douchebag in black, given the context of it being at a vision more detailed reimagining of Cloud's final fight with Sephiroth, its just more of Sephiroth taunting Cloud with falsified visions of the future to fuck with his head. It's "The Edge of Creation" because its the cusp of Sephiroth's final victory and ascent to being a God, which he taunts Cloud with, saying he has seven seconds until he wins, to which Cloud at this point in the narrative can do nothing, because he has yet to break free from Jenova's influence and sort out his sense of self.

As an aside to that scene in the OG, I've seen a lot of wishlisting over the years since the Remake's announcement that that fight get a retreatment as a full-blown boss battle because it would be cool or because they were disappointed that it was effectively an interactive cutscene in the OG, and I'm gonna have to weigh in with a BIG DISAGREE on that desire. The point is that, for Cloud and by extension the player, its effortless. Cloud's entire arc is less about growth as a person as it is about Self-Acceptance. Revolving around being a shy, bullied, largely-friendless kid in Nibelheim and blaming himself for Tifa's accident when they were 8/9, Cloud's motivation from the time we meet him up until the Lifestream sequence in Mideel is to be anyone other than himself, to be like Sephiroth in particular, because he thinks regular Cloud is worthless and incapable of being loved or respected. Destroying himself on the altar of being a nebulous sense of 'better' is the price he's willing to pay for acceptance. It's that desire for approval, particularly his former role-model Sephiroth's, that makes him so easy to manipulate over the course of the game.

It's only until we get to the Mideel sequence that he breaks out of it, where he realizes, after baring all of his perceived personal failings to Tifa, the person he blames himself for failing and who he left to join Soldier to be worthy of being noticed by, that he comes to terms with himself. Because she doesn't care. When he spills his guts to the rest of the party afterwards, they don't care either. His friends and the woman he's in love with do not find his imperfections disqualifying, and they resume more or less where they left off, appointing him leader again despite previous events, because they care about him and have faith in his abilities. He does not need to be 'better' to be accepted.

That's why his final fight with Sephiroth is a single Omnislash to his face. The capstone for Cloud's arc is destroying the man he tried to be. And its effortless because he has nothing left to prove.

So, yeah, I'm looking forward to the last part of this thing where, after Sephiroth spends the entire runtime kicking Cloud when he's down and gloating about how he's defied fate and seguewaying into Thanos speeches about how he's 'inevitable', he still still gets slam-dunked into the floor.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Also, to further some commentary on the whole "Seven Seconds Until the End" and "Edge of Creation" lines spouted by our resident L'Oreal commercial looking douchebag in black, given the context of it being at a vision more detailed reimagining of Cloud's final fight with Sephiroth, its just more of Sephiroth taunting Cloud with falsified visions of the future to fuck with his head. It's "The Edge of Creation" because its the cusp of Sephiroth's final victory and ascent to being a God, which he taunts Cloud with, saying he has seven seconds until he wins, to which Cloud at this point in the narrative can do nothing, because he has yet to break free from Jenova's influence and sort out his sense of self.

The Edge of Creation is a separate new world/space of some sort. And the "Seven seconds until the end line" refers to the vision of the end of the world at the hands of Meteor you witness before finally entering combat. According to the story log of the game itself. So that's actually a tangible thing right there.

While everyone's focusing on Sephiroths' supposed influence and capability of how he knows what he knows, I think ultimately we're ignoring the elephant in the room of what we saw in the ending and how it was depicted. I really think it's highly important we ultimately see a clip of the ending of FFVII play before our eyes and called the "end of the world" before fighting Sephiroth wrestling control of 'destiny' from his hands as dictated by the agents of the planet. There's gotta be some importance there.

So, yeah, I'm looking forward to the last part of this thing where, after Sephiroth spends the entire runtime kicking Cloud when he's down and gloating about how he's defied fate and seguewaying into Thanos speeches about how he's 'inevitable', he still still gets slam-dunked into the floor.

We definitely know that'll happen, so you have nothing to worry about there. Given what's been done and alluded to, despite your lack of faith, I have a feeling the writers are on the same page here. They didn't lucksack into making the beginning 90% of the game what it was, after all.

 

[Knuxson]

That was never the case, though. Seph didn't need Cloud and co. to get the Black Materia for him (Cloud says as much himself). Seph had Cloud get it for him because it created yet another opportunity to torture Cloud, with the awarenese that he handed over the key to killing the world.

Even in the original game, Sephiroth's obsession with Cloud is his defining trait. He puts a foolproof plan to achieve godhood on delay so he can dick around with Cloud.

Do you remember around what part of the game Cloud says that? I tried searching through the script of the game in the northern crater (disc 2) and Cloud's recovery sections (where he talks to the party on the Highwind after getting out of the lifestream), but didn't find it. It just would be interesting to read.

I always thought that Sephiroth needed Cloud to deliver the black materia because basically the other clones were all so messed up and had little chance of actually making it all the way to the crater where Sephiroth is.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm really looking forward to the Kalm flashback. I hope they keep that in Part II. I want to see Sephiroth being an actual, sane human being, as he was in Crisis Core. Still terrifyingly cold and powerful, of course, but human.

 

[Magos-Dominus]

Do you remember around what part of the game Cloud says that? I tried searching through the script of the game in the northern crater (disc 2) and Cloud's recovery sections (where he talks to the party on the Highwind after getting out of the lifestream), but didn't find it. It just would be interesting to read.

I always thought that Sephiroth needed Cloud to deliver the black materia because basically the other clones were all so messed up and had little chance of actually making it all the way to the crater where Sephiroth is.

I remember the line, but that's in the context of the Temple of the Ancients, and how they can't just leave the Black Materia there, as Sephiroth and an unknown-to-them number of disposable minions and spare bodies to do his work for him, so the sacrifice necessary to get your hands on it wouldn't be an obstacle in the slightest. Cloud's the most stable of the various Sephiroth copies, and a back-burner threat to Sephiroth at most. When he actually gets within striking distance of messing up his plans, he just manipulates Cloud into acting in his interests instead. As presented in the OG, Sephiroth doesn't really give a shit about anyone on an individual level, Cloud is one of only two people he even calls by name, the other being Tifa, and even then its only to fuck with them more to make Cloud more malleable. Once he summons Meteor, he never speaks another word for the rest of the runtime, because he's won, by all accounts, and just needs to run out the clock on victory. Their 'rivalry' is mostly one-sided. To Cloud, he's the man who ruined his life and betrayed him by not living up to being the person he admired and sought to emulate. To Sephiroth, Cloud is an occasionally useful tool.

@LicoriceAllsorts I can't imagine them tossing out the Kalm Flashback, its on a short list of five or so scenes that make the game work, presentation wise, so its gotta stay. If the next part is gonna be Kalm > The North Crater like I think it is, opening up with that as the intro level/tutorial and then revisiting the scene again via Sephiroth's illusions in the Whirlwind Maze would be a good way to book-end the installment.