SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Roger]

Do you remember around what part of the game Cloud says that? I tried searching through the script of the game in the northern crater (disc 2) and Cloud's recovery sections (where he talks to the party on the Highwind after getting out of the lifestream), but didn't find it. It just would be interesting to read.

I always thought that Sephiroth needed Cloud to deliver the black materia because basically the other clones were all so messed up and had little chance of actually making it all the way to the crater where Sephiroth is.

Barret:​

Then just leave it.​

If we can't take it, then neither can Sephiroth, right?​

​

Tifa:​

Let's just leave it, OK?​

​

Red XIII:​

That'll be safer. If no one can else take it......​

Then Sephiroth can't either, right?​

​

Cid:​

Guess stuff this dangerous is best left alone?​

​

Yuffie:​

Let's just leave it and get the hell out of here!​

​

Cait Sith:​

The Ancients were a mean bunch. This way, no one'll be able to get it.​

​

Vincent:​

I guess that means it's safe here.​

Cloud:
No. We've got to think of a way to get it out.

Cloud:
Because Sephiroth has lots of different flunkies.
It's nothing to him to throw their lives away to get the Black Materia.

Cloud:
This place isn't safe.

Cloud proceeds to give Sephiroth straight away at the Temple of Ancients, then they briefly get it back at the Northern Crater, then Cloud gives it back to the real Sephiroth. Jenova Sephiroth did 99% of journey on it's own.

 

[Knuxson]

Ah okay. So, basically, the only time Sephiroth really needed someone to help him with getting the black materia is at the Temple of the Ancients, because someone had to be sacrificed to get it, which could have been one of the hooded clones. Cloud eventually gets it back after giving it to Seph at the Temple, which is why Seph forces/persuades Cloud to give it to him again.

I am still not convinced Seph was as obsessed with Cloud in the OG as he is in AC and the Remake. But, if Seph is aware of the threat that Cloud actually is to him in the Remake, it makes more sense in that he sees Cloud as his ultimate rival/obstacle.

 

[SailorStarDust]

My brain's pretty "out to lunch" at the moment, but I just wanted to say belated thanks to your replies

Theozilla: Thanks so much for clarifying about the Biggs situation, it's appreciated.

Jairus: I suppose I just find it makes the most "logical sense" to view the ending as straightfoward. That's not to say we can't have something like Jessie and Wedge both alive alongside Biggs, too (even those crossing/alternate timelines popular theories, if Square so chooses). but yeah. Heck, maybe the upcoming Remake Ultimania will clarify the ending somewhat, too?

I'm pretty sure we see the 7th Heaven sign on the ground before the Party retrieves Wedge from the underground factory (Chapter 13, I think), too so naturally the survivors during end game would need help lifting it up. And you can see from the Plate above when it was fallen, that Sector 7 fell in sections. Like, only key points were detonated. That's why I have such a hard time swallowing the idea of "oh, it's an alternate timeline where the plate didn't drop/Zack survived". Now, seemingly Zack survived in "our" world before getting shot/captured/whatever once Cloud gets further into Midgar than the outskirts (considering Aerith and Zack sensed each other during her memory of the past—seemingly only a few days ago in Remake continuity), but that's all wait and see.

@LicoriceAllsorts I can't imagine them tossing out the Kalm Flashback, its on a short list of five or so scenes that make the game work, presentation wise, so its gotta stay. If the next part is gonna be Kalm > The North Crater like I think it is, opening up with that as the intro level/tutorial and then revisiting the scene again via Sephiroth's illusions in the Whirlwind Maze would be a good way to book-end the installment.

Agreed! This is exactly why I've always wanted Part 2 to be that length....loosely assuming Parts 2 and 3 are (give or take) 18 Chapters both. And of course, Part 3 opening up with Party Leader Tifa/the gang searching for Cloud, all the way up until the story's ending, gives more meaning, too. The Planet keeps on spinning without Cloud in the picture.

 

[snatchr]

I always thought it'd be cool if part 2 just cold opened with Cloud and Sephiroth in the truck without any explanation. Then its revealed as the flashback. It all feels a little small and superfluous now tho, the man hurls buildings with his mind I don't care if he kills a dragon or a big snake anymore.

 

[Shademp]

I am of course doing the mistake of asking anything to make sense here, but why would Loz, Yazoo and Kadaj manifest as whispers to protect the future in which shit went really bad for them? The whispers are supposed to be the will of the planet and what's the point of making a super-obscure reference to the silver-haired trio unless they are going to be agents of Sephiroth? As far as we know, Sephiroth didn't corrupt the whispers until he seemingly absorbed them after we beat the shit out of the harbinger of fate.

If it does turn out that whispers red, yellow and blue are the future remnants of Sephiroth then why would they even attack our party and try to prevent the harbinger of fate from being defeated. They'd be actively going against Sephiroth's will. This reference just doesn't work for me.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

The flashback scene can't have the same impact, but it can still have impact. The end of part 1 has Sephiroth waxing maniacally and throwing buildings at the player; if part 2 opens with him and Cloud on more friendly terms, the impact is wondering WTF happened to this guy? I think the Remake really excelled at improving characterization, so I think opening with the flashback sequence would still be incredible because it leans into this strength.

 

[Eerie]

The thing is, I always thought they were redeemed when Cloud beat them in AC/C? So I'm not surprised to see them back on the planet's side, especially since they joined the Lifestream after all. Using them, rule of cool aside, also avoids the idea that Cloud, Tifa and Barret's souls end up absorbed by Sephiroth - it was the thing that really made me doubt the theory tbh, it was a bit too much. While at least you can understand the "easiness" that Sephiroth has to absorb those three and you don't really have a moral objection anymore.

 

[Shademp]

Since clearly the whispers are manifestations of the planet's will and that they can also be entities from the future, yet they can manifest in the present time, does that mean that every soul that will/could ever die is at the planet's beck and call at any moment? Meaning that the total sum of lifestream in the planet is never just the collection of present-time energy stored, but also spirit energy that once existed and that will exist? Meaning...mako truly is limitless?

Don't believe Avalanche's lies. Mako truly is a limitless resource. Together with Shinra let us build a Neo Midgar of infinite spacetime loops

 

[Eerie]

I think it depends, is the novel where it's stated that the souls dissolve through time in the Lifestream still canon? Like, I could see how three spirits like them could be alive and maybe ported over to the past because of their link to Sephiroth and Cloud?

 

[Wol]

I think it depends, is the novel where it's stated that the souls dissolve through time in the Lifestream still canon? Like, I could see how three spirits like them could be alive and maybe ported over to the past because of their link to Sephiroth and Cloud?

What's even canon anymore lol

btw what novel

 

[Eerie]

Isn't it in the White Lifestream novel? I don't remember. Or something similar. Where did I read this, it was a decade ago, people here probably know (maybe it was never canon though lol).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I am of course doing the mistake of asking anything to make sense here ...

... but why would Loz, Yazoo and Kadaj manifest as whispers to protect the future in which shit went really bad for them? The whispers are supposed to be the will of the planet and what's the point of making a super-obscure reference to the silver-haired trio unless they are going to be agents of Sephiroth? As far as we know, Sephiroth didn't corrupt the whispers until he seemingly absorbed them after we beat the shit out of the harbinger of fate.

If it does turn out that whispers red, yellow and blue are the future remnants of Sephiroth then why would they even attack our party and try to prevent the harbinger of fate from being defeated. They'd be actively going against Sephiroth's will. This reference just doesn't work for me.

I think @X-SOLDIER was probably on the right track when he suggested that Sephiroth's will is working to overcome even the essence of fate as it pertains to the planet, explaining the Whispers' taste in their tailoring and the combat styles of Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo.

If this explanation is correct, I imagine it's not so much that these entities literally are the spirits of those three young men Kyrie was friends with. More likely, these are the individual aspects of Sephiroth each of them served to provide form to -- e.g. Sephiroth's strength became embodied through Loz and had a preference for fighting with his fists.

Still, even if it can be explained as such, I'm with you on this reference not really working for me as presented. If these three manifested after Sephiroth absorbed Whisper Harbinger, then it would work, but as is, it's kind of clunky.

 

[cold_spirit]

We know from what Nomura has told us that this is a separate universe, not an overwrite of the original. That in mind, it seems more accurate to call this a time split or branching. Sephiroth's knowledge (consciousness?) must have went back in time, splintering a separate universal line of time off from the original. (Perhaps Aerith then sent her own memories in pursuit.)

Considering the mechanism for how Sephiroth sent knowledge back in time has not been defined or clearly alluded to, I'm not buying this theory. Maybe I'm weak sauce, but I like simple explanations, so I'm sticking with the reasoning that Sephiroth is clairvoyant because he traveled the Lifestream, which is now established as enforcing its own predefined history. Similar to how he absorbed knowledge of the Black Materia in the OG, Sephiroth now sees reason to defy fate.

Can I request a link to the interview where Nomura states the remake is a separate universe? So far I can only find this article, where Nomura says "A lot of things will change, but the essence of the universe will not."

One thing that's influenced me is a conversation I had with a buddy on FF7R. He has passing knowledge of the OG and completely forgot the Compilation existed. Our conversation was going smoothly, until I begin to explain the theories that the remake features a post-AC Sephiroth of sorts. His eyes immediately glazed over. I had lost him. That conversation really solidified my standing that no part of the remake should require knowledge of the Compilation to parse through. There are references to the Compilation, of course, but it should not be part of the main plot.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Regarding the Whispers, while i aprecciate the effort and enjoy reading and analyse the theories around them, i really wish that they aren't connected neither to the remnants nor to future versions of Cloud and Co.

Better to keep it straight and simple, with those three Whispers being just normal bosses that the party had to go through.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Considering the mechanism for how Sephiroth sent knowledge back in time has not been defined or clearly alluded to, I'm not buying this theory.

It's presented to us here in the remake that the planet's will can transcend time with these smoky spooks, and we knew already from FFIX that synthesizing the memories of a large enough swell of souls can be used to go back in time. Sephiroth's will subsumed a significant portion of the planet's Lifestream via Geostigma, so he had access to a mechanism for traveling through time.

Maybe I'm weak sauce, but I like simple explanations, so I'm sticking with the reasoning that Sephiroth is clairvoyant because he traveled the Lifestream, which is now established as enforcing its own predefined history.

And I can't buy this because it never came up in the original story. The (meta)physics in play should be the same, so it makes little sense that Sephiroth would have this knowledge now yet didn't have it then despite absorbing the knowledge of the Lifestream in both instances.

A mechanism that provides us the simple explanation you would prefer should be equally applicable to either iteration, not a special exemption. An outside influence from the future causing a different course of events is a lot more simple than a spontaneous different course of events.

I can roll with either, mind you, but if we're talking what's most simple, it's the obvious pick.

Can I request a link to the interview where Nomura states the remake is a separate universe? So far I can only find this article, where Nomura says "A lot of things will change, but the essence of the universe will not."

https://twinfinite.net/2020/03/final-fantasy-vii-remake-wont-overwrite-original/

 

[cold_spirit]

An outside influence from the future causing a different course of events is a lot more simple than a spontaneous different course of events.

What about all the other spontaneous differences between the OG and the remake? Where's the time travel theory to explain why Avalanche needed an extra day to prepare for the second bombing? Where's the time travel theory to explain the addition of Don Corneo's Trio? There aren't any, because the remake is a different narrative universe than the OG. Specifically, it exists because the OG's universe is so cherished. Having unique internal workings should be justified when considering the nature of this project.

 

[oty]

That's exactly what I've been thinking. The Remake, whether you like it or not, makes our head spin because of the circunstances around it. It simultaneously makes us think about what a Remake, in a real life context, is, whilst purposely revolving around a similar situation in-game. The implications are apparent: a crazy, bonkers theory that Sephiroth travelled back from AC to the beggining is not that crazy anymore. But that's because the game, through the Whispers but also through just normal gameplay and other additions, is continuously threading in a very thin line of, rudely put, "game stuff" and "woah thats too real stuff". We're talking about "different universes" in-game, either through timelines or an "OG Universe" and a "Remake Universe", and "different universes" in real life, as in, the actual physical meaning of the Original FFVII game and the Remake game. And it's doing that at the same time.

It's something that I've seen become recurrent. Almost everytime a Remake discussion is involved, not here in the Lifestream per say, without realising, we cross the borders of "in game" stuff and real life stuff ever so often. Sometimes it happens multiple times.

Trivial stuff, normal game stuff, like Abzu not dying, Johnny being more apparent, Kyrie showing up, Rufus' dog (Darkstar?) being his loyal companion and not dying in 30secs. Suddenly those things can gain a whole lotta meaning, specially outside of a "game" context. Maybe it's because we are thinking too much. Maybe we're not thinking enough.

The thing is, I'm actively going crazy.

 

[cold_spirit]

Sorry for the double post.

The (meta)physics in play should be the same, so it makes little sense that Sephiroth would have this knowledge now yet didn't have it then despite absorbing the knowledge of the Lifestream in both instances.

To claim that the (meta)physics should remain the same is a rule you've self-imposed that creators don't necessarily follow. Sometimes Godzilla is the protector of humanity, sometimes Godzilla is the planet's weapon against humanity. Sometimes Peter Parker is bestowed the ability to shoot webs, sometimes he makes a gadget for it. It's all about the story the creators want to tell. In this case, the creators are very aware this is a remake. As such, they've implemented a mechanism that allows them to toy with the concept of fate in remakes.

I just think the theory is inconsistent. It hyper focuses on how Sephiroth is different, but other plot changes go unnoticed because it's generally agreed those changes were made to modernize or expand the world. It doesn't add up to me.

 

[Pizzachu]

Well, assuming he's been given good info (and we've no reason to think otherwise at this point), that goes a long way towards verifying that Sephiroth transferred at least his knowledge through time upon being defeated in "Advent Children."

I think @X-SOLDIER was probably on the right track when he suggested that Sephiroth's will is working to overcome even the essence of fate as it pertains to the planet, explaining the Whispers' taste in their tailoring and the combat styles of Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo.

If this explanation is correct, I imagine it's not so much that these entities literally are the spirits of those three young men Kyrie was friends with. More likely, these are the individual aspects of Sephiroth each of them served to provide form to -- e.g. Sephiroth's strength became embodied through Loz and had a preference for fighting with his fists.

Still, even if it can be explained as such, I'm with you on this reference not really working for me as presented. If these three manifested after Sephiroth absorbed Whisper Harbinger, then it would work, but as is, it's kind of clunky.

I'm quoting you because you bring up good points about the Whispers' potential origin.

As for what Maximilian Dood has heard about the Whispers being Sephiroth's Remnants:

Spoiler: Rambling

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am trying to make heads or tails of it:

Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz were created by memories from the Lifestream combined with Sephiroth binding himself onto those memories. Sephiroth creates Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz because the planet had consumed memories of Sephiroth's own form. At this point when the Remnants are made, Sephiroth is pure consciousness. The Remanants' purpose was to let Sephiroth exist in the living world.

However, Sephiroth did not let the planet have his memories until the Lifestream erupted. So, if the Remake is somewhat following the original game, then Sephiroth did not create the Remnants at this time.

The Remnants would somehow have to come from the future to the time of the original game if they are truly the Whisper Harbingers (as stated in the Whispers' descriptions). And, if Kadaj is one of the Harbingers, then this would have to be before his "transformation" into Sephiroth in AC.

Sephiroth needed the Remnants in order to exist physically in AC, and the Remnants' job is to search for Jenova. So why would the Remnants go back in time? Also, why would the Remnants try to protect a future where Sephiroth had been defeated once already?

Or Sephiroth could have created the Remnants with a different goal in mind. But why would he deviate from his plan in AC? It's not like he would have predicted his own defeat by Cloud. So, how could he have had the foresight to come up with a different plan?

Summary: It's not that I wouldn't like the Whisper Harbingers to be Sephiroth's Remnants, but I can't think of a good explanation as to why the Harbingers would be them. However, a fight with Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo sounds fun.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

I have to say that Aerith's role in the remake is reminding me a lot of Raiden from Mortal Kombat, especially after she steps in front of the portal.

 

[Kratos]

Yeah, I'm on team Not Future Sephiroth. Sometimes a difference in the story is just a difference in the story, even when it pertains to Sephiroth.

 

[Theozilla]

Out of curiosity, what was the source of Maximilian Dood's "tip" that the Whisper sub-bosses are the Remnants? Was it just a friend pointing out an observation (because that's no different than the theorizing we're doing), or does he actually have some contact/acquaintance who works at SquareEnix?

Also the Whispers being references/homages to the Remnants don't necessarily mean they are supposed to literally be the Remnants, sometimes an homage is just an homage and doesn't have much plot significance.

But for the sake of speculating and spitballing even if the Whisper sub-bosses are meant to have plot significance, them being some manifestation of the Remnants isn't too illogical, since the Remnants were both created out the Lifestream (albeit corrupted Lifestream) and eventually went back into the Lifestream, perhaps the Planet is drawing on them since they were powerful entities (maybe they are incarnations of their power, post-purified by Aerith since she seems to be their new "mother" by the end of AC/C). Or maybe this is also meant to be a BootStrap paradox for their own existence, if the Planet is drawing on their power from the future, maybe their forms as Whispers is what inspires Sephiroth to design them that way during OTWAS/AC because he remembers the power/forms of the Whisper sub-bosses.

And I definitely agree with @cold_spirit that The Lifestream having different "rules"/aspects to it in this incarnation of the story is a much more simple explanation than having to create complex time-travel/loop explanations for how Sephiroth has vague future knowledge. (Godzilla is a great example of how a franchise can change the rules and dynamics of a character depending on the story being told)

 

[Pizzachu]

Max doesn't specifically state who he got his tip from. He seemed to imply that whoever it is is credible, but nothing else is added about where this info comes from. That is why I was unsure about the whole Whisper Harbinger = Remnants theory. I was speculating based on that because I wanted to figure out the reasoning behind it.

I do like the different approaches you had mentioned about how that theory could work out. I was thinking too linearly about the Whispers literally being the Remnants from the future and how many aspects from previous media would be carried over.

That Ultimania really needs to give us more info or something. Thinking about how everything could possibly fit together and the different avenues the creators can take is giving me a headache.

 

[Wol]

LOL

 

[rkss]

If you want to be picky, fist whisper have the claw weapon on his right hand while Loz has it on his left.

they can't be AC trio either.