SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
There’s a difference between wanting a 1:1 remake and wanting the same basic story structure as the original.

If I decided to mount Romeo and Juliet as a trilogy, advertising Part 1 as ending at the Capulet’s ball, one would think I might expand on the characters of Benvolio and Rosalind, maybe delve deeper into the Montague/Capulet feud, and maybe even add some characters to help Part 1 feel like a whole play. That’s not a 1:1 Remake, but I would say such a thing is a faithful adaptation.
Adding a time travel B plot that becomes A plot makes about as much sense as... well, as it does in the context of FF7.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
The Remake is doing a glamorous job with newcomers. Say what you want about the Whispers, but thematically they are a far cry away from uninteresting to new players. The visions and the premonitions? That gets people fired up. The ending confuses people a lot, but to them.....it's not the same deal as us. They are just waiting for the sequel.

On the other side of the table, the Remake also gives the best characterisation of the main cast (probably the whole cast tbh) and the world of FFVII since the original, and does it explodingly. I mean, if I wanted any person to experience a Hell House, the Remake gets it covered, and goes above and beyond with it.

It obviously has its shortcomings, because it is a game, and a game goes through a development, that goes through issues. Even though we wanted it to be great all around, I have a lot of empathy for the developers. They obviously wanted the whole game to be great, and for the most part it was, but development is....really hard. It's more easy to steer off course than the other way around. Shit happens, pretty much.

It obviously hurts to a lot of people not seeing the Remake they dreamed for 5, 10, 15 years or more. But the way it is, it's kind of like Dr.Strange said "There was no other way". And that's...kind of it. The idea of a Remake has been cooking for many years already, and it all culminated on the original team coming back and eventually brainstorming these ideas to put in the game. We cant control the idea being cooked for many years, and we wanted the original team to come back. And we also cant give in to the imagination of "if only they didnt do this, but kept doing that" . The good things of the Remake would never come to fruition without the "bad". It's all part of the process. In fact, the situation we reached, call it Fate if you will, is that we would never get a Remake that didnt include these changes. There is no use thinking of "what ifs". There is actually a "science theory" that pretty much says that, if it didnt happen with that exact circunstance, its because the probability was 0. It was used to "explain" time paradoxes, what a coincidence huh, but anyway, it's sort of what we are dealing bere.

I actually got very conflicted after the ending, but in the end, I couldnt lie that the game still gave many things I dreamed about, that the developers put so much effort and care in the game, and I think most importanly, I wouldnt want a faithful remake if it meant the developers being burned about it. Not only would that suck to them, it would probably suck to us. No creator should have some burden because of their own creation. Its the worst thing possible. Not only would they start hating it, they wouldnt make a very good job with it at all.

I mean, if we think about what ifs, then we have to think about the possibility that the Remake was gonna be just a cut, garbage cash grab with no care put into it at all. Or begrudgingly made, that is a chore for the developers, and a chore for us.

TL : DR: Many of us didnt get what we wanted, and that can crush us. But that was faulty from the beggining. There would be no Remake other than this, considering the circunstances that build up to this. I'm talking, since 2005 or less. But if you want to think about the possibilies, just remember: they werent just "what we wanted" and "what we got". It was much worse. Im not talking just horrible cashgrab, it could have easily been just a very much worse game. Gameplay wise, music wise...and even story wise.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I still feel like the whole idea around making things open and terrifying at the end is to give them a little bit of natural flexibility in the presentation of the story for Part 2, but also tying the defeat of Sephiroth into the inevitability of the big and important events.

Sephiroth is tempting Cloud with the ability to save people he cares about. This is presented explicitly as a way to tempt Cloud & Aerith into choosing saving something that's precious to them over guaranteeing that they defeat Sephiroth. In Advent Children, Sephiroth was threatening to find more things that Cloud cared about and take them away as well. This version of Sephiroth is the last moments of him trying to defy his fate at the very end sending ripples out through everything else in the Lifestream.

Thematically, this is all so that you can do what's necessary to ensure that things end up where they need to be with more sensation that you might actually fail. Ultimately I think that this is built to add feeling the pain of not being able to change the fates of the people you care for – no matter how much you want to, even without pre-dictated fate of the existing story guaranteeing that it happens.




X :neo:
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
True that, to CLoud there's nothing that's not important, he wants it all: to save Aerith, to save the world, to save Zack if presented with the opportunity, to save everyone - but he's only human.

BTW, I felt while watching this Remake, that this version of Cloud is kinder than what he is at that point in the OG. He's a better person, as a whole. I know that being one game and all, they had to expand more than in the OG, and make Cloud change faster, but still, I feel a bit unsettled. I like him, that's not the problem, the problem is that I also feel that the next part is going to be even worse to see than his OG's fall...

I think that the characters, all of them, are probably better than their OG selves. There is more depth, they change, they feel, and are, as a whole, more relatable. Well the OG's horrid translations didn't help either, but still, the characterisation is definitely on point but also extended. Which is why I'm really interested to see what's to come. As for the story... it can only be judged at the end of the games' series. It's very hard to say if they failed or nailed it, seeing that there is max 1/3rd of the whole story.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
Perfectly timed for the current discussion, Heather Alexander over at Kotaku has released her take on the ending:

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2020/04/final-fantasy-vii-remake-is-haunted-by-what-came-before/

There are a lot of great lines, but the most potent to me is "Final Fantasy VII Remake is a game about being the remake of Final Fantasy VII."

Okay one more, but please read the article!

"Final Fantasy VII Remake’s ending suggests that the story belongs to someone else, to a group that’s been altogether ignored within this discussion: the characters."
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
"Because you can’t make Final Fantasy VII in 2020. You can only make a game about trying to make Final Fantasy VII in 2020"

Okay I did not expect to be hit like that in a freaking review.

"There is the Final Fantasy VII that Square made, the one you played, and the one that we all remember. Which one is true? Which one should be remade?"

And this is just.....damn
 

Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
True that, to CLoud there's nothing that's not important, he wants it all: to save Aerith, to save the world, to save Zack if presented with the opportunity, to save everyone - but he's only human.

BTW, I felt while watching this Remake, that this version of Cloud is kinder than what he is at that point in the OG. He's a better person, as a whole. I know that being one game and all, they had to expand more than in the OG, and make Cloud change faster, but still, I feel a bit unsettled. I like him, that's not the problem, the problem is that I also feel that the next part is going to be even worse to see than his OG's fall...

I think that the characters, all of them, are probably better than their OG selves. There is more depth, they change, they feel, and are, as a whole, more relatable. Well the OG's horrid translations didn't help either, but still, the characterisation is definitely on point but also extended. Which is why I'm really interested to see what's to come. As for the story... it can only be judged at the end of the games' series. It's very hard to say if they failed or nailed it, seeing that there is max 1/3rd of the whole story.
Its interesting because I agree that Cloud is kinder to most people, but he's also a lot more murder-y. Seems like his solution to most problems is, "Why not just kill this guy?" I don't know if that will factor in going forward, but it might and that could be interesting.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
True that, to CLoud there's nothing that's not important, he wants it all: to save Aerith, to save the world, to save Zack if presented with the opportunity, to save everyone - but he's only human.

BTW, I felt while watching this Remake, that this version of Cloud is kinder than what he is at that point in the OG. He's a better person, as a whole. I know that being one game and all, they had to expand more than in the OG, and make Cloud change faster, but still, I feel a bit unsettled. I like him, that's not the problem, the problem is that I also feel that the next part is going to be even worse to see than his OG's fall...

I think that the characters, all of them, are probably better than their OG selves. There is more depth, they change, they feel, and are, as a whole, more relatable. Well the OG's horrid translations didn't help either, but still, the characterisation is definitely on point but also extended. Which is why I'm really interested to see what's to come. As for the story... it can only be judged at the end of the games' series. It's very hard to say if they failed or nailed it, seeing that there is max 1/3rd of the whole story.
Well I can judge the quality of the ending, and it's not looking good already rofl
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
All right I just beat the game on Normal an hour or two ago, with my total playtime at a little over 73 hours (and all characters at level 50 and all weapon abilities learned).
After finally playing through the entire game and experiencing the narrative in its entirety linearly (and not in edited often out of order YouTube videos), I am now more convinced than ever that aside from the Whispers themselves, there isn’t any time travel plot going with the characters themselves, including Aerith and Sephiroth. Sure the latter two definitely have more cosmic and fate/temporal “awareness“ of things, but it’s cryptic and obtuse, likely largely deliberately so, so the writer(s) can use them as plot devices as how they see fit. But Cryptically obtuse is definitely how I would describe the last Chapter of the Remake, and a good part of it very obviously intentionally so.

I don’t love it (Chapter 18 specifically) to be clear, but I was having loads of fun of just letting the spectacle of the climax just wash over me, so I at least definitely enjoyed it. And I remain more convinced than ever Zack is still dead.
And the characters during the Whisper Harbinger fight definitely aren’t supposed to understand any of the AC/C footage visions they see aside from understanding that there is a Meteor and a wasteland that Red XIII is running through. All the other stuff is out of context images (like random images of Aerith praying and Holy bouncing) or the characters are deliberately whited out by extreme filter effects. So I am confident no one, including Aerith herself, knows that Aerith is going to be killed in the future. And I am very confident that the main major plot points (i.e the skeleton of the OG) are going to be adapted and present in the future Remake installments, but I am definitely looking forward to the expansions and modifications the meat of the story will get. Though hopefully the developers won’t feel the need to be as cryptic in future installments.

This first installment of the FFVII Remake has definitely been one of my favorite PS4 games I have played and I greatly prefer the Remake over the equivalent Midgar sections of the OG. I would give this entry a strong 9/10, maybe even 9.5 at times.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
All right I just beat the game on Normal a hour or two ago, with my total playtime at a little over 73 hours (and all characters at level 50 and all weapon abilities learned).
After finally playing through the entire game and experiencing the narrative in its entirety linearly (and not in edited often out of order YouTube videos), I am now more convinced than ever that aside from the Whispers themselves, there isn’t any time travel plot going with the characters themselves, including Aerith and Sephiroth. Sure the latter two definitely have more cosmic and fate/temporal “awareness“ of things, but it’s cryptic and obtuse, likely largely deliberately so, so the writer(s) can use them as plot devices as how they see fit. But Cryptically obtuse is definitely how I would describe the last Chapter of the Remake, and a good part of it very obviously intentionally so.

I don’t love it (Chapter 18 specifically) to be clear, but I was having loads of fun of just letting the spectacle of the climax just wash over me, so I at least definitely enjoyed it. And I remain more convinced than ever Zack is still dead.
And the characters during the Whisper Harbinger fight definitely aren’t supposed to understand any of the AC/C footage visions they see aside from understanding that there is a Meteor and a wasteland that Red XIII is running through. All the other stuff is out of context images (like random images of Aerith praying and Holy bouncing) or the characters are deliberately whited out by extreme filter effects. So I am confident no one, including Aerith herself, knows that Aerith is going to be killed in the future.

This first installment of the FFVII Remake has definitely been one of my favorite PS4 games I have played and I greatly prefer the Remake over the equivalent Midgar sections of the OG. I would give this entry a strong 9/10, maybe even 9.5 at times.
Agree agree agree :)
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
I wanted to comment on something from about a page back (particularly @Shademp's post).

I think it's important for everyone to take a step back and evaluate what is it about FFVII that we are so deeply attached to. This is not a real world with real people, but we all tend to talk about it as if that were the case. We all have our own reasons. A creator would not be able to connect with or influence their audience otherwise. In the end, it's not really about FFVII - it's about how it makes us feel and why it makes us feel that way (or why it originally made us feel a certain way, years ago, and why we ran with it for years), on the most personal of levels. There are a lot of things that resonate with many people - death, income inequality, redemption, reverence of nature, idolatry, pride. Certain characters, their experiences, and how they respond to them. Or simply nostalgia for a lost time. Our parasocial relationship with FFVII and its characters, ships, etc, is ultimately a relationship with ourselves, comprised of entities that are reflections of the self that is pondering them, and it's important to remind ourselves of who we are and who we want to be. There is a laundry list of personal reasons why this franchise and its characters continue to grip my attention, and it's all rooted in lived experiences.
 

Clean Cut Chaos

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Cub Chaos
Do people who are familiar with the entire compilation enjoy the ending more than those who have only played the OG 7?

If crisis core was ported somewhere I would have probably played it by now, but I haven't. I don't remember AC very well and it didn't leave enough impression for me to watch again and I watched dood play DoC for a few hours before I completely checked out. So the OG is really all I have to go by.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Do people who are familiar with the entire compilation enjoy the ending more than those who have only played the OG 7?

If crisis core was ported somewhere I would have probably played it by now, but I haven't. I don't remember AC very well and it didn't leave enough impression for me to watch again and I watched dood play DoC for a few hours before I completely checked out. So the OG is really all I have to go by.
I enjoyed Advent Children, and I guess CC and even DoC didn't mess up so much with OGs universe... not at this level.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I like the notion that he's basically pulling a Palpatine
Same. I think it suits this version of Sephiroth really well.
Somewhat related, I think that the fidelity of seeing the characters in this level of realism does something REALLY interesting that got brought up on Twitter, and I wanted to hear what people here thought:

Do people who are familiar with the entire compilation enjoy the ending more than those who have only played the OG 7?

If crisis core was ported somewhere I would have probably played it by now, but I haven't. I don't remember AC very well and it didn't leave enough impression for me to watch again and I watched dood play DoC for a few hours before I completely checked out. So the OG is really all I have to go by.

So, I played all of the Compilation that I could get my hands on, binged through it all, and I really love it all for what it is. It's got its flaws to be certain, but I really like it a ton.

That all being said – I initially really didn't like the ending of Remake at all for several reasons.

If you're just going off of the OG, I think that what you'll feel most right off the bat is the change into some weird Kindom-Hearts-timeline-bullshit totally derailing everything about the game right at the finale with a cheap recreation of the original ending, and losing the game's story in favor of a meta narrative commentary about the game's story.

However, after spending more time to let it settle, and especially taking time to really look at the game in context to the ways that it draws parallels to Advent Children or Crisis Core for things that it's establishing for the future helped me get a perspective on everything here that totally shifted my feelings about the ending, but I think that it's really all down to looking at the WHY of these inclusions – and they're completely different than they seem at face value.

That's because the changes aren't nearly as crazy as they feel, and I don't actually think that we're truly going to be changing the story. Beyond the sorts of things that they're already doing to adjust the presentation to fit more in line with the sort of content they can deliver, it's still going to be FFVII, with parts of the Compilation added in, and some new things and changes to make it all work.

This "capital 'D' Destiny" mechanic with the Whispers is in place, so that they can give the player a way to feel the ramifications of the actions and wider reaching consequences if they were to just follow the story, vs. pushing against the existing narrative to attain one of their own choosing. The deus ex machina system keeps the story in place – because this is a remake of something that has to follow an existing path. However, at the end of this first game – that no longer exists. This is so that the player has to feel as though the ultimate fates of the characters in your party and what happens to the world across these games is directly a result of their own choices, not because that's the way it's written.

This means that things like changing Zach's & Aerith's fates that feel like they could be changed because a remake of something could technically let you do whatever they want are on the table... –but they're only on the table, because as the player you're going to have to give that up to achieve something that's more important.

The core thematic purpose of FFVII's narrative is about defeating Sephiroth & stopping his goal of assuming command over all creation and becoming a god where everything flows through him. This is achieved through an act of selflessness & altruism, where the balance of peace between humanity and the Planet is restored, and by so doing the flow of power removes that power from Sephiroth. The end result is that the world is saved – but Cloud is still left with survivor's guilt & trauma from those events and has to carry the pain of those choices with him.

This is why knowing that Advent Children exists as the resolution of Cloud's pain & acceptance of what they did in the original game is so important. It's why the Whispers are in the form of the Advent Children Sephiroth Remnants – they're going to eventually be transformed into the mechanics of the story that Sephiroth is manipulating to make Cloud (and now the player) feel guilt & pain over those things. In the end, this gives a route to directly overcoming "Fate" that you can't change, because that's what the past truly is: overcoming your own memories that you can't go back and change to be what the current pain in you is longing for. The end of that results in Cloud (and the player) being at peace with those choices that were made and the events that have transpired – which finally represents the conclusion of Cloud's personal emotional narrative.

That's what literally all of the new stuff is.

It's why I have to emphasize that it's about as far from random timetravel & alternate timelines Chrono-Kingdom-Hearts-level nonsense as it could possibly be, even though it doesn't seem like that's the case.





X:neo:
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I don't think experiencing the compilation makes a difference. At least to me it doesn't. This game (from what I understand) is meant to stand on its own, separate from the OG/compilation. For me to fully enjoy it, I'm looking at it as though I never experienced the ff7 universe
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
The course of events the Whispers are trying to invoke is one you are familiar with from the original game I feel that context is not unimportant, the Sephiroth fight is one quite deliberately retraced from Advent Children, beyond that Cloud's connection with the kids might resonate more strongly if you've are familiar with Cloud's arc in that story, the ending stinger is definitely one that expects familiarity with Crisis Core, and there are allusions to Crisis Core characters in this game. Aerith's relationship with the Turks can be understood better through that game as well.

Dirge of Cerberus is the first mention of G-Type SOLDIERs and Before Crisis features and AVALANCHE with uniforms that match AVALANCHE HQ but those I feel are pretty optional still.
 
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